They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
Trekkies would only be "in the loop" if they know he's Khan from the start.
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Uh oh, is the next episode looks like it has Tuvix. Jesus Christ, I am smoking a bowl before this shit goes down
0
Options
MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
Trekkies would only be "in the loop" if they know he's Khan from the start.
I meant specifically when K&K are taking over Admiral Marcus's ship.
The only "hint" that Khan was going to end up betraying Kirk is Old Spock. (which was less of a hint, and more explicitly stating it)
But maybe someone who didn't expect Khan to be bad guy due to the originals, would have thought that he was following the misunderstood/wrongly accused guy trope?
They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
It might have been the point in the first draft of the script but the fact that he was Khan, that he was a bad guy and that he will betray everyone was being hammered in every other scene with a visit from old Spock just to make sure that anyone that's been asleep up until then knew that Khan was a bad guy.
They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
Trekkies would only be "in the loop" if they know he's Khan from the start.
And even if you knew, you could think "maybe they are going a different angle". The movie does a good job of making Khan seem deadly and dangerous, but also potentially an ally. It's only when he snaps blondie's leg that it's really like "Ok, yeah, he's not just kinda evil, he's really evil".
They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
Trekkies would only be "in the loop" if they know he's Khan from the start.
And even if you knew, you could think "maybe they are going a different angle". The movie does a good job of making Khan seem deadly and dangerous, but also potentially an ally. It's only when he snaps blondie's leg that it's really like "Ok, yeah, he's not just kinda evil, he's really evil".
Yeah.
though less "lol evil" and more "yeah, he's not going to cooperate one second longer than necessary. Shame, that"
Well, I saw the movie this afternoon, going in with only limited spoilers, and I'm firmly on the disappointed side.
My main beefs are some lazy storytelling. Khan makes a big deal about his crew being his family -- something we see in both Space Seed and ST2 -- but we don't get to see in this movie. I would have liked something to establish that relationship on screen, rather than being exposition. It's the classic storytelling truism: show, don't tell.
"Show, don't Tell" doesn't apply in all cases. It's more of a general idea. In this case, there's no way to show it without robbing the script of it's momentum. Sometimes a good monologue is better for the script and Cumberbatch delivers a good performance on that part. It also ties back into already existing themes in the movie wrt Kirk so it works pretty well as is imo.
Agreed, but for something like strong emotions -- such as rise to a sense of family -- showing would have been more powerful than having a character announce how he feels. Heck, even a simple flashback could have worked.
Eh, I don't think it matters. A flashback would break the momentum and narrative focus of the show. We already know Khan is pissed off and dangerous, his monologue just fills us in on WHY and monologues are good for that.
Similarly, as others have pointed out, the "Chekov's gun" of the magic blood was telegraphed to the point of distraction and robbed Kirk's "death" of any emotional impact. The fact that we've barely seen Kirk and Spock's relationship forming (compared to the 15 years audiences had to come and know them by the time of ST2) also made that scene a poor imitation of the original, rather than the homage I think they were aiming for.
Which is too bad, because I really like these actors and feel like they own the characters. The banter between them also feels authentic and fresh. I just wish the storytelling was up to par with them.
While I agree they need to do a better job establishing the Kirk/Spock relationship, you are misreading that scene. It's not supposed to be or feel the same. It's not one character losing a long-time friend, it's one character telling another character they are friends and this is what friends do and the other character finally acknowledging this idea. It's a wrap up to the whole beginning where Kirk violates the prime directive to save Spock.
WoK's scene is Kirk having to accept defeat. To face a no-win scenario. STID's scene is Kirk showing his growth as a leader and Spock realising what Kirk's friendship means.
Exactly -- both scenes depend on a believable friendship between the two characters. I don't think we've seen enough genuine trust and understanding between the two to make that effective in this case.
They don't depend on it to the same extent or the same way though because part of the point in STID is that Spock isn't really sure what they are or what "friendship" means. They are building trust and understanding, it's not already supposed to be there.
I do agree though that the movie could really use a scene between the beginning action sequence and the dressing down by Pike to establish a rapport between the two. We need to see the state of their relationship at the start of the film. It's both movie's main failing imo.
So I finally watched it. Some stuff that did not make sense to me:
The opening scene with the volcano. Why are they lowering Spock into a volcano? The fusion device clearly has a timer on it. Why not turn it on and then lower it by itself, or send it down on a torpedo or something?
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
They only mention the past wars off-hand, hence why I feel it compares relatively well to that TNG episode. Nebulous past reasons are ignored in favour of a discussion on current violence due to the attempt to control them.
In a purely In To Darkness context, him and his "family" are being held captive by the Bad Guy.
He proceeds to escape, and in the process, takes down the Bad Guy's secret HQ and thwarts(or at least stalls) the Bad Guy's plan to start a war, and kills some of Bad Guy's buddies.
And he only betrays Kirk after Kirk tries to betray him.
At almost every turn, Khan is reacting to things done too him.
The only reason I knew that he was going to end up being the final bad guy after the Admiral reveal was because I watched the original, they mentioned the ship could be piloted by one person and the Old Spock+Dead father figure.
As it happened in the movie Khan escaped section 31, then forces a man to target a library with a bomb, killing many civilians, he then attacks starfleet directly killing high ranking officials. After this he escapes to Qo'Nos.
Though your suggested angle would have been great the movie Kahn committed a mostly un-nessassary act of terrorism for the purpose of enacting vengeance. Nothing particularly admirable, and nothing that would help his crew at the time.
Later on though he is mostly reacting, which is odd because that means neither villain had that much motivation other then what's immediately threatening them.
Well, the "library" was actually a secret underground military operation being used to start a war with the Klingons.
If Khan didn't end up killing Admiral Pike (and the suicide bomber angle), up until the last 15 minutes it could have been a buddy-cop film.
And I'm wondering if that might actually have been the point? Was the Khan betrayal supposed to be a twist for non-trekkies, and a way for trekkies to be "in the loop"?
Trekkies would only be "in the loop" if they know he's Khan from the start.
And even if you knew, you could think "maybe they are going a different angle". The movie does a good job of making Khan seem deadly and dangerous, but also potentially an ally. It's only when he snaps blondie's leg that it's really like "Ok, yeah, he's not just kinda evil, he's really evil".
I did like this Khan. It was different enough that he almost seemed like an anti-hero at times, especially when after he reveals his motives to Kirk. Maybe that's why they avoided talking about his past in detail - that would make him look much worse to the audience.
So I finally watched it. Some stuff that did not make sense to me:
The opening scene with the volcano. Why are they lowering Spock into a volcano? The fusion device clearly has a timer on it. Why not turn it on and then lower it by itself, or send it down on a torpedo or something?
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
To get the people out of the hut, in case Spock's fusion device failed.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Presumably they would have impulsed off to another area before lifting off. Practically, it's slightly more in keeping with the Prime Directive for "guy in blue cloak leaps off cliff, vanishes" than "guy vanishes in flash of light". Kirk and McCoy can swim to the Enterprise rather than be beamed up.
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
Doesn't that happen in every movie fight ever? Not an excuse, mind you
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
All of the captains and first officers for the area were in the meeting that Khan shoots up. It's less than a day later that the two ships are fighting; possibly they were still reeling from the loss.
I loved the part where Uhura beams down and keeps stunning Khan with a phaser as he lurches towards her like a human Terminator. The whole Spock sequence where he chases down and fights Khan was incredible.
I loved the part where Uhura beams down and keeps stunning Khan with a phaser as he lurches towards her like a human Terminator. The whole Spock sequence where he chases down and fights Khan was incredible.
not sure if sarcastic, but I genuinely loved that bit
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It is a time honored Star Trek film tradition that the Enterprise is the only ship near Earth, and a time honored Trek tradition in general that she is the only ship that can do anything to protect the planet.
I loved the part where Uhura beams down and keeps stunning Khan with a phaser as he lurches towards her like a human Terminator. The whole Spock sequence where he chases down and fights Khan was incredible.
not sure if sarcastic, but I genuinely loved that bit
Not sarcastic at all. That was one of the movie's best parts.
STID relied on fistfights and action sequences for excitement. WoK relied on an exciting story. There were only two space battles, both of which were needed for the story, and no fistfights at all.
Khan's motivations in WoK were a lot more intense, a lot more personal. His motivations in STID seem so much more remote and cold. Which is funny because they're basically the same motivations. WoK just did a better job making us feel them.
Khan in WoK was an antithesis of Kirk. That's what made him so interesting. Kirk and Khan had a lot of the same attributes and were each other's nemesis. Khan in STID is just a villain with nothing in common with Kirk. He doesn't even care about Kirk at all, he's out for revenge on someone else, and Kirk just gets in the way. Really, they could have made up an entirely new villain and it would have worked as well, it didn't need to be Khan at all.
So I finally watched it. Some stuff that did not make sense to me:
The opening scene with the volcano. Why are they lowering Spock into a volcano? The fusion device clearly has a timer on it. Why not turn it on and then lower it by itself, or send it down on a torpedo or something?
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
Aside from that, not a bad movie.
1) It seemed to me they couldn't' just drop it in cause they couldn't have it drop in the lava before it went off.
2) He stole the scroll to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle.
3) They say the magnetic field is making beaming difficult. Hence why they had to get LOS for Spock's beamout.
4) All those and also the truck fight are because it's cool. That's why.
5) Presumably the captains were off holding the perimeter or something? Only Kirk and Marcus know where Khan went it seems. The fight over the Earth is rather silly though, no question there.
Made for an awesome sequence though.
6) The blood, one presumes, is because McCoy wasn't taking any chances that the next popcicles blood was also magic. Which seems a good, conservative bet when you've got the genuine article within reach.
All of the captains and first officers for the area were in the meeting that Khan shoots up. It's less than a day later that the two ships are fighting; possibly they were still reeling from the loss.
So the conversation on the bridge went something like:
"Commander, there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth. Now one of them is setting a course to crash right into Starfleet HQ. Shoud we... maybe... do something about that?"
"No. I'm still mourning the captain's death from yesterday. Let them fight each other and leave me alone."
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
The second time Khan tries to kick off Spock from the side on a hover-truck. He fails then is ambushed by Uhura who distracts him long enough for Spock to reach the top.
They were running out of time and Bones would have been wasting it had he tested the Augment without a positive result. With Khan they knew for sure his blood can heal.
STID relied on fistfights and action sequences for excitement. WoK relied on an exciting story. There were only two space battles, both of which were needed for the story, and no fistfights at all.
Khan's motivations in WoK were a lot more intense, a lot more personal. His motivations in STID seem so much more remote and cold. Which is funny because they're basically the same motivations. WoK just did a better job making us feel them.
Khan in WoK was an antithesis of Kirk. That's what made him so interesting. Kirk and Khan had a lot of the same attributes and were each other's nemesis. Khan in STID is just a villain with nothing in common with Kirk. He doesn't even care about Kirk at all, he's out for revenge on someone else, and Kirk just gets in the way. Really, they could have made up an entirely new villain and it would have worked as well, it didn't need to be Khan at all.
They probably could have used another villain, but so what? Khan worked as good as anything else.
Also, in this one Khan is a mirror for Kirk. They both do have alot in common. They are both dangerous, smart, somewhat reckless, intense and out for revenge. It's just unlike in WoK, in this Kirk isn't the target.
Which I felt worked fine. I thought Khan's motivations were plenty personal and intense. They just weren't about Kirk cause that's not the point this time.
It's really more about Kirk here then anything. It's The Wrath of Kirk. Except he makes the better decision then Khan does in WoK.
I loved the part where Uhura beams down and keeps stunning Khan with a phaser as he lurches towards her like a human Terminator. The whole Spock sequence where he chases down and fights Khan was incredible.
not sure if sarcastic, but I genuinely loved that bit
Not sarcastic at all. That was one of the movie's best parts.
I thought that was the least awesome action sequence in the movie personally.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
I was talking to a friend about this the other day.
I liked both Star Trek and Into Darkness, and I'd really like to see something new. But I don't know if I trust the writers of this film and whatever blist director they hire to take over for the threequel with a new idea.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
Whenever someones starts talking about The Dominion or the Maquis I can just feel my brain glazing over into a boredom induced coma. For me, Star Trek really petered out after TNG.
So I finally watched it. Some stuff that did not make sense to me:
The opening scene with the volcano. Why are they lowering Spock into a volcano? The fusion device clearly has a timer on it. Why not turn it on and then lower it by itself, or send it down on a torpedo or something?
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
Aside from that, not a bad movie.
1) It seemed to me they couldn't' just drop it in cause they couldn't have it drop in the lava before it went off.
2) He stole the scroll to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle.
3) They say the magnetic field is making beaming difficult. Hence why they had to get LOS for Spock's beamout.
4) All those and also the truck fight are because it's cool. That's why.
5) Presumably the captains were off holding the perimeter or something? Only Kirk and Marcus know where Khan went it seems. The fight over the Earth is rather silly though, no question there.
Made for an awesome sequence though.
6) The blood, one presumes, is because McCoy wasn't taking any chances that the next popcicles blood was also magic. Which seems a good, conservative bet when you've got the genuine article within reach.
1) They know how long the timer is and they know how deep the volcano is. They can drop it and make sure it goes off before hitting the lava. Or encase it in something that won't have time to melt before the device goes off.
2) They explicitly said the natives didn't see the shuttle because of the smoke from the volcano.
3) That was the magnetic field inside the volcano. They wouldn't have a problem beaming anywhere else on the planet. Also, they have shuttles. Which, presumably, are easier to launch and land if your shuttle bay doesn't get flooded with sea water every time you open the door.
4) Meh.
5) What perimeter? They literally flew from the Klingon neutral zone (where war is apparently looming) to Earth shooting each other and crashed into SFHQ without encountering a single other ship.
Whenever someones starts talking about The Dominion or the Maquis I can just feel my brain glazing over into a boredom induced coma. For me, Star Trek really petered out after TNG.
statistically speaking the freefall started the moment Neelix opened his beg fat mouth for the first time.
I loved the part where Uhura beams down and keeps stunning Khan with a phaser as he lurches towards her like a human Terminator. The whole Spock sequence where he chases down and fights Khan was incredible.
not sure if sarcastic, but I genuinely loved that bit
Not sarcastic at all. That was one of the movie's best parts.
I thought that was the least awesome action sequence in the movie personally.
I'm glad they gave Uhura something to do to Khan to show her being a badass, even if it wasn't enough to defeat him. Though Khan was lucky she had orders to take him alive otherwise I can imagine she'd have killed him in one shot. I don't think his body could survive a fatal blast.
I was talking to a friend about this the other day.
I liked both Star Trek and Into Darkness, and I'd really like to see something new. But I don't know if I trust the writers of this film and whatever blist director they hire to take over for the threequel with a new idea.
We'll see what the future holds with whoever takes up the reigns when Abrams leaves. Into Darkness sets up a few options to explore
like Khan returning, hostilities increasing with the Klingon Empire, Sector 31 and the Five Year Mission.
0
Options
MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I did like that both Spock and Kirk got to defeat a bad guy.
And with them switching scenes around from WoK, it did come across that Khan was more Spock's nemesis than Kirk's.
This series seems to focus much more on giving Spock and Kirk the same screen time.
(though the Bones and Spock relationship suffers for it)
So I finally watched it. Some stuff that did not make sense to me:
The opening scene with the volcano. Why are they lowering Spock into a volcano? The fusion device clearly has a timer on it. Why not turn it on and then lower it by itself, or send it down on a torpedo or something?
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
Aside from that, not a bad movie.
1) It seemed to me they couldn't' just drop it in cause they couldn't have it drop in the lava before it went off.
2) He stole the scroll to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle.
3) They say the magnetic field is making beaming difficult. Hence why they had to get LOS for Spock's beamout.
4) All those and also the truck fight are because it's cool. That's why.
5) Presumably the captains were off holding the perimeter or something? Only Kirk and Marcus know where Khan went it seems. The fight over the Earth is rather silly though, no question there.
Made for an awesome sequence though.
6) The blood, one presumes, is because McCoy wasn't taking any chances that the next popcicles blood was also magic. Which seems a good, conservative bet when you've got the genuine article within reach.
1) They know how long the timer is and they know how deep the volcano is. They can drop it and make sure it goes off before hitting the lava. Or encase it in something that won't have time to melt before the device goes off.
2) They explicitly said the natives didn't see the shuttle because of the smoke from the volcano.
3) That was the magnetic field inside the volcano. They wouldn't have a problem beaming anywhere else on the planet. Also, they have shuttles. Which, presumably, are easier to launch and land if your shuttle bay doesn't get flooded with sea water every time you open the door.
4) Meh.
5) What perimeter? They literally flew from the Klingon neutral zone (where war is apparently looming) to Earth shooting each other and crashed into SFHQ without encountering a single other ship.
6) Well, I'll grant you that one.
1) Lowering someone in seems less likely for something to go wrong with the device. Also, makes for a
2) They also said they needed to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle. I presume they mean "see it going in to the cloud".
3) Was it just inside the volcano? They don't use the transporter anywhere else.
4) You can "meh" if you chose, but that's the point. It's the Ocean Solution. The setup exists to move the story forward.
5) Hell if I know. That part is mostly inexplicable. And the crash into earth is kinda pointless and could have been done elsewhere.
Spock asking old-Spock advice. On the main viewscreen, on the bridge. I guess that whole bit about having an alternate version of himself from a future alternate universe is something they're not keeping secret but decided to be pretty open about...
Spock asking old-Spock advice. On the main viewscreen, on the bridge. I guess that whole bit about having an alternate version of himself from a future alternate universe is something they're not keeping secret but decided to be pretty open about...
Not that open. They didn't reveal the details about what he told Spock. I also liked how Spock Prime explained why he isn't giving the crew tips on everything.
Spock asking old-Spock advice. On the main viewscreen, on the bridge. I guess that whole bit about having an alternate version of himself from a future alternate universe is something they're not keeping secret but decided to be pretty open about...
Sulu: is this really the right time to call your grand pa?
I watched it yesterday and enjoyed it, although less so than the 2009 film. I'm not too bothered by most of the winks at the franchise, since I didn't feel that most of them got in the way of the plot - except the
Kirk-Spock role reversal, with Kirk sacrificing himself. That one lacked all emotional resonance IMO, a) because they'd already pointed out what the reset button would be and b) we haven't had 70+ episodes worth of building the character relationships. Combine those two and you rob Kirk's sacrifice of any dramatic power.
For the next one I hope they'll do something with the Klingons that amounts to more than an action-fest. I'd basically like this continuity's The Undiscovered Country - not the same plot, but just something that takes the Klingons and uses them as something other than just growly baddies.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Actually having the Klingons as the main bad guys would be good. So far, they've just been background.
Who were the three Klingons from TOS that showed up in DS9? Kor, and some other K names?
Let's have them vs Enterprise.
Posts
The only "hint" that Khan was going to end up betraying Kirk is Old Spock. (which was less of a hint, and more explicitly stating it)
But maybe someone who didn't expect Khan to be bad guy due to the originals, would have thought that he was following the misunderstood/wrongly accused guy trope?
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Yeah.
I do agree though that the movie could really use a scene between the beginning action sequence and the dressing down by Pike to establish a rapport between the two. We need to see the state of their relationship at the start of the film. It's both movie's main failing imo.
Why did Kirk steal the natives' holy scroll? It turned out well since later the hut they were in got destroyed by a random rock shot out of the volcano, but there's no way Kirk could have known that was going to happen.
Why was the Enterprise hidden in the ocean? I mean, why? If they needed to hide it, well I doubt the natives would have seen it in orbit. They can beam down and send shuttles from orbit too. Scotty even says the salt water is damaging the ship. They can't leave again without the natives seeing them and violating the prime directive. Story-wise, it wasn't a setup to establish the Enterprise doubles as a submarine for a later scene. So why the hell did they do that?
Why did Khan go to Qo'Nos? He obviously knew that Admiral Asshole's plan required him to be on Qo'Nos to start a war. There was nothing there for him. So why did he go there?
Near the end, when Spock and Khan fight on the hover-trucks. Twice, Spock falls and holds on to the side of the trucks and has to slowly climb back up. Twice Khan, who is fighting him for his life, peacefully lets him climb back up to continue the fight instead of kicking him off and finishing him. Twice.
So the entire final battle took place in orbit of Earth, and there was not a single starship around to go check out why there are two starfleet ships shooting at each other in orbit of Earth? Especially when the movie established that the day before there were a half-dozen ships right there (the captains all met in the conference room that Khan attacked). Fuck, they did this at the beginning of Generations too, and got panned for it, and they did it again! Then Khan crashes his ship into Earth and takes out Starfleet HQ and like a city block without any trouble. Isn't there a single defence system on this planet? It was only a few years ago that Vulcan was blown the motherfucking up and Earth was next, and they didn't bother to even install a single gun pointed at the sky to protect their military HQ?
Why did they need Khan's blood? They have 72 other supermen on board. They even revive one to put Kirk into his tube. Why not use the blood of one of them?
Aside from that, not a bad movie.
not sure if sarcastic, but I genuinely loved that bit
Not sarcastic at all. That was one of the movie's best parts.
STID relied on fistfights and action sequences for excitement. WoK relied on an exciting story. There were only two space battles, both of which were needed for the story, and no fistfights at all.
Khan's motivations in WoK were a lot more intense, a lot more personal. His motivations in STID seem so much more remote and cold. Which is funny because they're basically the same motivations. WoK just did a better job making us feel them.
Khan in WoK was an antithesis of Kirk. That's what made him so interesting. Kirk and Khan had a lot of the same attributes and were each other's nemesis. Khan in STID is just a villain with nothing in common with Kirk. He doesn't even care about Kirk at all, he's out for revenge on someone else, and Kirk just gets in the way. Really, they could have made up an entirely new villain and it would have worked as well, it didn't need to be Khan at all.
2) He stole the scroll to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle.
3) They say the magnetic field is making beaming difficult. Hence why they had to get LOS for Spock's beamout.
4) All those and also the truck fight are because it's cool. That's why.
5) Presumably the captains were off holding the perimeter or something? Only Kirk and Marcus know where Khan went it seems. The fight over the Earth is rather silly though, no question there.
Made for an awesome sequence though.
6) The blood, one presumes, is because McCoy wasn't taking any chances that the next popcicles blood was also magic. Which seems a good, conservative bet when you've got the genuine article within reach.
So the conversation on the bridge went something like:
"No. I'm still mourning the captain's death from yesterday. Let them fight each other and leave me alone."
They were running out of time and Bones would have been wasting it had he tested the Augment without a positive result. With Khan they knew for sure his blood can heal.
Also, in this one Khan is a mirror for Kirk. They both do have alot in common. They are both dangerous, smart, somewhat reckless, intense and out for revenge. It's just unlike in WoK, in this Kirk isn't the target.
Which I felt worked fine. I thought Khan's motivations were plenty personal and intense. They just weren't about Kirk cause that's not the point this time.
It's really more about Kirk here then anything. It's The Wrath of Kirk. Except he makes the better decision then Khan does in WoK.
I thought that was the least awesome action sequence in the movie personally.
I liked both Star Trek and Into Darkness, and I'd really like to see something new. But I don't know if I trust the writers of this film and whatever blist director they hire to take over for the threequel with a new idea.
1) They know how long the timer is and they know how deep the volcano is. They can drop it and make sure it goes off before hitting the lava. Or encase it in something that won't have time to melt before the device goes off.
2) They explicitly said the natives didn't see the shuttle because of the smoke from the volcano.
3) That was the magnetic field inside the volcano. They wouldn't have a problem beaming anywhere else on the planet. Also, they have shuttles. Which, presumably, are easier to launch and land if your shuttle bay doesn't get flooded with sea water every time you open the door.
4) Meh.
5) What perimeter? They literally flew from the Klingon neutral zone (where war is apparently looming) to Earth shooting each other and crashed into SFHQ without encountering a single other ship.
6) Well, I'll grant you that one.
statistically speaking the freefall started the moment Neelix opened his beg fat mouth for the first time.
Consult the graph:
have some respect
he's a survival expert
also warp cores
We'll see what the future holds with whoever takes up the reigns when Abrams leaves. Into Darkness sets up a few options to explore
And with them switching scenes around from WoK, it did come across that Khan was more Spock's nemesis than Kirk's.
This series seems to focus much more on giving Spock and Kirk the same screen time.
(though the Bones and Spock relationship suffers for it)
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
2) They also said they needed to distract the natives so they didn't see the shuttle. I presume they mean "see it going in to the cloud".
3) Was it just inside the volcano? They don't use the transporter anywhere else.
4) You can "meh" if you chose, but that's the point. It's the Ocean Solution. The setup exists to move the story forward.
5) Hell if I know. That part is mostly inexplicable. And the crash into earth is kinda pointless and could have been done elsewhere.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Who were the three Klingons from TOS that showed up in DS9? Kor, and some other K names?
Let's have them vs Enterprise.