So they can be woken up thousands of years from now, and find that society has passed them by, and that everything they ever cared about is gone! Like In The Neutral Zone. And... also one other episode from each series, I think. Psychological trauma punishment!
Not every series. I don't think Enterprise did one. Which is odd, come to think of it, since they loved to reuse old plots in the worst possible way, and being a prequel to the other Treks it would have been the worst thing to do.
"I don't want to shock you, but you've been in cryo-sleep for... 50 years! We tracked down your decedents, and all your children are still alive and well, they say hi."
It'd be like the old South Park episode where they find and revive a man frozen since the 1990s, except with even more two-dimensional characters.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
So they can be woken up thousands of years from now, and find that society has passed them by, and that everything they ever cared about is gone! Like In The Neutral Zone. And... also one other episode from each series, I think. Psychological trauma punishment!
Not every series. I don't think Enterprise did one. Which is odd, come to think of it, since they loved to reuse old plots in the worst possible way, and being a prequel to the other Treks it would have been the worst thing to do.
"I don't want to shock you, but you've been in cryo-sleep for... 50 years! We tracked down your decedents, and all your children are still alive and well, they say hi."
It'd be like the old South Park episode where they find and revive a man frozen since the 1990s, except with even more two-dimensional characters.
Enterprise's Augments story was better than Into Darkness
just with worst acting, graphics, cinematography, action, set design, lighting...
But my biggest problems with Into Darkness might have been resolved with better casting and dialogue for Khan. I like Cumberbatch a lot, but he's nothing like Khan. Khan was charismatic as hell, Cumberbatch isn't
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
So what is the difference between being frozen forever and being killed other than the hypothetical being unfrozen that will never ever happen unless they really fuck up?
In Space Seed, it made sense as they were getting the hell out of Dodge after their dictatorship fell with being frozen the only way to effectively space travel in those days.
None, really.
Well, lazy storytelling plot resolution.
Everything about ID was lazy. It's depressing that writing so sloppy and unintelligent is basically the standard for blockbusters these days.
Watching this is kinda painful since immediately as they get to the "let's talk about the plot" part, they get elements from the movie completely wrong.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Watching this is kinda painful since immediately as they get to the "let's talk about the plot" part, they get elements from the movie completely wrong.
Well, like the 09 Star Trek, the plot of this movie doesn't make much sense when you think about it.
Both Section 31 and Khan were pretty dumb and most of their plans depended a lot on coincidence.
Watching this is kinda painful since immediately as they get to the "let's talk about the plot" part, they get elements from the movie completely wrong.
Well, like the 09 Star Trek, the plot of this movie doesn't make much sense when you think about it.
Both Section 31 and Khan were pretty dumb and most of their plans depended a lot on coincidence.
That depends on what you think their plans were.
I'm not sure on your thoughts, but in the video they make immediate huge mistake of assuming Khan's plan was to be captured by Kirk all along, when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
They didn't make that assumption. They were just summarizing the plot.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 decide to wake up Khan, the most cunning and power hungry of the augments, who also happens to be more of a warrior and leader rather than a scientist or engineer? Why not wake up an augment who specialized in designing/building weapons?
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
They didn't make that assumption. They were just summarizing the plot.
No, they did make that assumption. Watch the video, it's one of the first things they say when they get to the plot section.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 decide to wake up Khan, the most cunning and power hungry of the augments, who also happens to be more of a warrior and leader rather than a scientist or engineer? Why not wake up an augment who specialized in designing/building weapons?
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
1) They woke up Khan cause apparently they thought he'd be good at making war. It kinda makes sense although god knows why they had him in weapons development and not, like, strategic planning.
2) One assumes Khan was working in the Section 31 facility where the augments and various other shit was stored, so that's how he got near them.
3) Marcus wants to instigate war with the Klingons without making it look like he did. So he has Kirk fire the missiles and eliminates the evidence that he ordered it. Anyone who even knows Kirk did it will assume he was acting recklessly like it's established he always does.
I'm not sure why you think giving Kirk the torpedoes aroused anyone's suspicions or compromised the plan. The plan failed because Kirk did the right thing and pulled back from just pursuing vengeance. Otherwise it was going off without a hitch.
4) Khan knows what's going on because that's the whole reason they woke him up. They were using his knowledge of war so obviously he knows what's going on somewhat and the rest his super-genius mind puts together on it's own.
5) Khan goes with Kirk because he's got no choice anymore. He's been discovered by the Klingons now and his plan with the torpedoes has failed since Kirk took him in alive. So once he knows Kirk has his people he gets on board the Enterprise to get near them and then basically wings it. He's in a better position there, within reach of his people, then stuck on Qonos being hunted by Klingons with his people left to die with Kirk when Marcus shows up.
They didn't make that assumption. They were just summarizing the plot.
No, they did make that assumption. Watch the video, it's one of the first things they say when they get to the plot section.
Rich Evans then corrected them on that assumption.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 decide to wake up Khan, the most cunning and power hungry of the augments, who also happens to be more of a warrior and leader rather than a scientist or engineer? Why not wake up an augment who specialized in designing/building weapons?
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
1) They woke up Khan cause apparently they thought he'd be good at making war. It kinda makes sense although god knows why they had him in weapons development and not, like, strategic planning.
2) One assumes Khan was working in the Section 31 facility where the augments and various other shit was stored, so that's how he got near them.
3) Marcus wants to instigate war with the Klingons without making it look like he did. So he has Kirk fire the missiles and eliminates the evidence that he ordered it. Anyone who even knows Kirk did it will assume he was acting recklessly like it's established he always does.
I'm not sure why you think giving Kirk the torpedoes aroused anyone's suspicions or compromised the plan. The plan failed because Kirk did the right thing and pulled back from just pursuing vengeance. Otherwise it was going off without a hitch.
4) Khan knows what's going on because that's the whole reason they woke him up. They were using his knowledge of war so obviously he knows what's going on somewhat and the rest his super-genius mind puts together on it's own.
5) Khan goes with Kirk because he's got no choice anymore. He's been discovered by the Klingons now and his plan with the torpedoes has failed since Kirk took him in alive. So once he knows Kirk has his people he gets on board the Enterprise to get near them and then basically wings it. He's in a better position there, within reach of his people, then stuck on Qonos being hunted by Klingons with his people left to die with Kirk when Marcus shows up.
1. Khan specifically said that Section 31 woke him up to have him develop weapons, he said nothing about the other aspects of the war. And my point was that it was stupid for them to wake up the most cunning, ambitious, and dangerous augment instead of picking someone more malleable.
2. And my point was that it was stupid for Section 31 to put Khan near the augments in the first place.
3. Sending Kirk to assassinate someone in direct violation of Federation laws by obliterating an entire province on the homeworld of a hostile race using experimental weapons is pretty damn suspicious. Kirk, Spock, Scotty, and Carol Marcus clearly knew that the order was highly questionable.
As for instigating the war, Marcus was planning to destroy the Enterprise with the Vengeance anyway so it made no difference whether Vengeance fired the torpedoes or if the Enterprise fired them. It would have made more sense for Admiral Marcus to send Kirk to the edge of Klingon space with the far less suspicious orders of arresting Khan and then come in with the Vengeance to destroy the Enterprise and fire the torpedoes.
4. They woke Khan up so he could build weapons for them. It makes no sense to tell him everything about Starfleet and Section 31.
5. Except Khan was not in a better position on the Enterprise since he was held prisoner and the Vengeance was coming to destroy the Enterprise. When Khan told Kirk about the location of the Vengeance, he could not have possibly known that Scotty would slip aboard. Khan knew that the Enterprise was helpless against the Vengeance. He knew that the Vengeance could easily catch up to the Enterprise even if they fled. He basically knew that the Vengeance would destroy the Enterprise, it was just pure luck that Scotty sabotaged it at the right moment.
If he had instead taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage and took their shuttle, he could have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise discovered the truth about the torpedoes, Khan could have arranged a trade.
...when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
It seemed like Khan and all his friends would've died in one big explosion if Kirk had followed orders.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
They didn't make that assumption. They were just summarizing the plot.
No, they did make that assumption. Watch the video, it's one of the first things they say when they get to the plot section.
Rich Evans then corrected them on that assumption.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 decide to wake up Khan, the most cunning and power hungry of the augments, who also happens to be more of a warrior and leader rather than a scientist or engineer? Why not wake up an augment who specialized in designing/building weapons?
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
1) They woke up Khan cause apparently they thought he'd be good at making war. It kinda makes sense although god knows why they had him in weapons development and not, like, strategic planning.
2) One assumes Khan was working in the Section 31 facility where the augments and various other shit was stored, so that's how he got near them.
3) Marcus wants to instigate war with the Klingons without making it look like he did. So he has Kirk fire the missiles and eliminates the evidence that he ordered it. Anyone who even knows Kirk did it will assume he was acting recklessly like it's established he always does.
I'm not sure why you think giving Kirk the torpedoes aroused anyone's suspicions or compromised the plan. The plan failed because Kirk did the right thing and pulled back from just pursuing vengeance. Otherwise it was going off without a hitch.
4) Khan knows what's going on because that's the whole reason they woke him up. They were using his knowledge of war so obviously he knows what's going on somewhat and the rest his super-genius mind puts together on it's own.
5) Khan goes with Kirk because he's got no choice anymore. He's been discovered by the Klingons now and his plan with the torpedoes has failed since Kirk took him in alive. So once he knows Kirk has his people he gets on board the Enterprise to get near them and then basically wings it. He's in a better position there, within reach of his people, then stuck on Qonos being hunted by Klingons with his people left to die with Kirk when Marcus shows up.
1. Khan specifically said that Section 31 woke him up to have him develop weapons, he said nothing about the other aspects of the war. And my point was that it was stupid for them to wake up the most cunning, ambitious, and dangerous augment instead of picking someone more malleable.
2. And my point was that it was stupid for Section 31 to put Khan near the augments in the first place.
3. Sending Kirk to assassinate someone in direct violation of Federation laws by obliterating an entire province on the homeworld of a hostile race using experimental weapons is pretty damn suspicious. Kirk, Spock, Scotty, and Carol Marcus clearly knew that the order was highly questionable.
As for instigating the war, Marcus was planning to destroy the Enterprise with the Vengeance anyway so it made no difference whether Vengeance fired the torpedoes or if the Enterprise fired them. It would have made more sense for Admiral Marcus to send Kirk to the edge of Klingon space with the far less suspicious orders of arresting Khan and then come in with the Vengeance to destroy the Enterprise and fire the torpedoes.
4. They woke Khan up so he could build weapons for them. It makes no sense to tell him everything about Starfleet and Section 31.
5. Except Khan was not in a better position on the Enterprise since he was held prisoner and the Vengeance was coming to destroy the Enterprise. When Khan told Kirk about the location of the Vengeance, he could not have possibly known that Scotty would slip aboard. Khan knew that the Enterprise was helpless against the Vengeance. He knew that the Vengeance could easily catch up to the Enterprise even if they fled. He basically knew that the Vengeance would destroy the Enterprise, it was just pure luck that Scotty sabotaged it at the right moment.
If he had instead taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage and took their shuttle, he could have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise discovered the truth about the torpedoes, Khan could have arranged a trade.
1) Did they say they only woke him up for making weapons? I got the impression he was doing alot of work for them.
And I assume he knew of the other augments cause that was part of his price for cooperation and they were all in that same London facility cause that's where Section 31 works out of.
2) The whole point of disabling the weapons seems to have been to get the Enterprise killed by the Klingons, thus starting the war. I thought Marcus only showed up once that didn't happen and to kill Khan when he realises what Kirk has done.
3) Khan is in a better position on the Enterprise cause he's near the only people he actually gives a shit about and in a position to help them. He's in trouble either way cause he knows Marcus is coming after him, as a prisoner he's in a better position to get Kirk's help. What's he gonna do with hostages? It burns more bridges with Kirk and they aren't gonna give him giant deadly torpedoes. They might have just blown him outta the sky.
...when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
It seemed like Khan and all his friends would've died in one big explosion if Kirk had followed orders.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
That's the thing that's actually unclear in the plot. Partially cause I don't remember every piece of dialogue or anything.
What were the torpedoes supposed to do? I kinda assumed they were supposed to land on Qonos and deliver Khan's people to him instead of blowing him up, but the script is not the clearest on that point as I remember.
...when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
It seemed like Khan and all his friends would've died in one big explosion if Kirk had followed orders.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
That's the thing that's actually unclear in the plot. Partially cause I don't remember every piece of dialogue or anything.
What were the torpedoes supposed to do? I kinda assumed they were supposed to land on Qonos and deliver Khan's people to him instead of blowing him up, but the script is not the clearest on that point as I remember.
The torpedoes would have exploded on impact.
Khan thought his crew was already dead; he didn't have any sneaky plan to reunite with them.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
...when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
It seemed like Khan and all his friends would've died in one big explosion if Kirk had followed orders.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
That's the thing that's actually unclear in the plot. Partially cause I don't remember every piece of dialogue or anything.
What were the torpedoes supposed to do? I kinda assumed they were supposed to land on Qonos and deliver Khan's people to him instead of blowing him up, but the script is not the clearest on that point as I remember.
The torpedoes would have exploded on impact.
Khan thought his crew was already dead; he didn't have any sneaky plan to reunite with them.
Would they have exploded?
I didn't get the impression Khan thought his crew were already dead, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
...when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
It seemed like Khan and all his friends would've died in one big explosion if Kirk had followed orders.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
That's the thing that's actually unclear in the plot. Partially cause I don't remember every piece of dialogue or anything.
What were the torpedoes supposed to do? I kinda assumed they were supposed to land on Qonos and deliver Khan's people to him instead of blowing him up, but the script is not the clearest on that point as I remember.
The torpedoes would have exploded on impact.
Khan thought his crew was already dead; he didn't have any sneaky plan to reunite with them.
Would they have exploded?
I didn't get the impression Khan thought his crew were already dead, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
Khan explains to Kirk that he went rogue because he believed his crew had been executed in the wake of his failed rescue attempt.
Marcus wanted to see Khan and his crew dead in the same big explosion to clean up all these loose ends without having to get his own hands dirty.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
They didn't make that assumption. They were just summarizing the plot.
No, they did make that assumption. Watch the video, it's one of the first things they say when they get to the plot section.
Rich Evans then corrected them on that assumption.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 decide to wake up Khan, the most cunning and power hungry of the augments, who also happens to be more of a warrior and leader rather than a scientist or engineer? Why not wake up an augment who specialized in designing/building weapons?
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
1) They woke up Khan cause apparently they thought he'd be good at making war. It kinda makes sense although god knows why they had him in weapons development and not, like, strategic planning.
2) One assumes Khan was working in the Section 31 facility where the augments and various other shit was stored, so that's how he got near them.
3) Marcus wants to instigate war with the Klingons without making it look like he did. So he has Kirk fire the missiles and eliminates the evidence that he ordered it. Anyone who even knows Kirk did it will assume he was acting recklessly like it's established he always does.
I'm not sure why you think giving Kirk the torpedoes aroused anyone's suspicions or compromised the plan. The plan failed because Kirk did the right thing and pulled back from just pursuing vengeance. Otherwise it was going off without a hitch.
4) Khan knows what's going on because that's the whole reason they woke him up. They were using his knowledge of war so obviously he knows what's going on somewhat and the rest his super-genius mind puts together on it's own.
5) Khan goes with Kirk because he's got no choice anymore. He's been discovered by the Klingons now and his plan with the torpedoes has failed since Kirk took him in alive. So once he knows Kirk has his people he gets on board the Enterprise to get near them and then basically wings it. He's in a better position there, within reach of his people, then stuck on Qonos being hunted by Klingons with his people left to die with Kirk when Marcus shows up.
1. Khan specifically said that Section 31 woke him up to have him develop weapons, he said nothing about the other aspects of the war. And my point was that it was stupid for them to wake up the most cunning, ambitious, and dangerous augment instead of picking someone more malleable.
2. And my point was that it was stupid for Section 31 to put Khan near the augments in the first place.
3. Sending Kirk to assassinate someone in direct violation of Federation laws by obliterating an entire province on the homeworld of a hostile race using experimental weapons is pretty damn suspicious. Kirk, Spock, Scotty, and Carol Marcus clearly knew that the order was highly questionable.
As for instigating the war, Marcus was planning to destroy the Enterprise with the Vengeance anyway so it made no difference whether Vengeance fired the torpedoes or if the Enterprise fired them. It would have made more sense for Admiral Marcus to send Kirk to the edge of Klingon space with the far less suspicious orders of arresting Khan and then come in with the Vengeance to destroy the Enterprise and fire the torpedoes.
4. They woke Khan up so he could build weapons for them. It makes no sense to tell him everything about Starfleet and Section 31.
5. Except Khan was not in a better position on the Enterprise since he was held prisoner and the Vengeance was coming to destroy the Enterprise. When Khan told Kirk about the location of the Vengeance, he could not have possibly known that Scotty would slip aboard. Khan knew that the Enterprise was helpless against the Vengeance. He knew that the Vengeance could easily catch up to the Enterprise even if they fled. He basically knew that the Vengeance would destroy the Enterprise, it was just pure luck that Scotty sabotaged it at the right moment.
If he had instead taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage and took their shuttle, he could have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise discovered the truth about the torpedoes, Khan could have arranged a trade.
1) Did they say they only woke him up for making weapons? I got the impression he was doing alot of work for them.
And I assume he knew of the other augments cause that was part of his price for cooperation and they were all in that same London facility cause that's where Section 31 works out of.
2) The whole point of disabling the weapons seems to have been to get the Enterprise killed by the Klingons, thus starting the war. I thought Marcus only showed up once that didn't happen and to kill Khan when he realises what Kirk has done.
3) Khan is in a better position on the Enterprise cause he's near the only people he actually gives a shit about and in a position to help them. He's in trouble either way cause he knows Marcus is coming after him, as a prisoner he's in a better position to get Kirk's help. What's he gonna do with hostages? It burns more bridges with Kirk and they aren't gonna give him giant deadly torpedoes. They might have just blown him outta the sky.
1. Khan said that he was forced to create weapons. As for the other augments, Section 31 was in the stronger position, there were plenty of things they could have done to ensure Khan's loyalty. Obviously, they could have threatened to kill Khan's crew if he didn't cooperate. They could have kept Khan in the dark about more things. They could have lied to him about how many of his crew they have. In Space Seed, the Botany Bay had 84 life pods but 12 had failed. Section 31 could have told Khan that there were only 10 other pods to increase the pressure on him. As for where the augments were being kept, the Vengeance was built in a shipyard around Jupiter so Section 31 has bases in other places. They could have easily spread the augments around to ensure Khan's cooperation.
2. The Enterprise's engines were disabled, not its weapons. The torpedoes were untraceable so how would the Klingons have found the Enterprise? And another hole in Marcus's plan was that he was depending on Kirk to fire the torpedoes before repairing his engines. What if Kirk had decided to repair the engines before firing the torpedoes? Marcus only realized what Kirk had done after he arrived and he later admitted that he had always planned to destroy the Enterprise.
3. Except Kirk had no way of helping Khan. Khan's best chance of ensuring his own survival and the survival of his crew was to get them away from the Enterprise before Marcus shows up to blow it up. There is absolutely no advantage for Khan to be on the Enterprise since the ship was doomed.
If he had taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage, he could have proposed an exchange. He would have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the coordinates of the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise found out about the cryotubes, Khan could have proposed to release his hostages in exchange for Enterprise releasing or thawing out his crew.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
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Not every series. I don't think Enterprise did one. Which is odd, come to think of it, since they loved to reuse old plots in the worst possible way, and being a prequel to the other Treks it would have been the worst thing to do.
"I don't want to shock you, but you've been in cryo-sleep for... 50 years! We tracked down your decedents, and all your children are still alive and well, they say hi."
It'd be like the old South Park episode where they find and revive a man frozen since the 1990s, except with even more two-dimensional characters.
Enterprise did one with Augments though.
we need this stickied at the top of every page of the thread.
http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-star-trek-into-darkness/
just with worst acting, graphics, cinematography, action, set design, lighting...
Star Trek Into Bitching
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
Super human my ass!
I'm sure it was the logical thing to do.
Everything about ID was lazy. It's depressing that writing so sloppy and unintelligent is basically the standard for blockbusters these days.
Watching this is kinda painful since immediately as they get to the "let's talk about the plot" part, they get elements from the movie completely wrong.
Their review of Prometheus was worse.
I don't remember them getting anything wrong plot-wise in the Prometheus video.
Well, like the 09 Star Trek, the plot of this movie doesn't make much sense when you think about it.
I'm not sure on your thoughts, but in the video they make immediate huge mistake of assuming Khan's plan was to be captured by Kirk all along, when the movie seems to make it fairly obvious that EVERYONE thought Kirk would fire the damn torpedoes and his refusing to do so and taking Khan in alive is what throws both villain's plans into the woodchipper.
As for the villains and their idiocy and reliance on luck,
Why did Section 31 even let Khan near the other augments? Sure, they should keep a few augments near him to assure him of their good faith but all of them? In fact, it seems like the security measures around really sucked.
Why did Admiral Marcus want the Enterprise destroyed? He wants to instigate war with the Klingons, destroying the Enterprise would weaken Starfleet's position. If he launches the torpedoes, the Klingons are going to suspect the Federation anyway and that's plenty of excuse to further militarize Starfleet.
Assuming that the Enterprise must be destroyed, why did Marcus give the Enterprise the torpedoes? Why not send Kirk on a mission to capture Khan but go to the neutral zone with the Vengeance to launch the torpedoes before the Enterprise arrives so that when the Enterprise gets stranded, the Klingons will find it and destroy it. Or wait until the Enterprise gets stranded in the neutral zone and then come in with the Vengeance to blow up the Enterprise and launch the torpedoes. Either way, giving the Enterprise the torpedoes did nothing but arose everyone's suspicion.
How did Khan know so much about Starfleet, Section 31, Admiral Marcus, and how they operated? Of course, this goes back to the problem of Section 31's incompetence but it still doesn't make any sense how Khan would know how Marcus would react.
Why did Khan agree to surrender to Kirk? He knew that the Enterprise was stranded and Marcus was coming to destroy it. He had no idea that Scotty would sabotage the Vengeance. Was he just planning to die? It would have made more sense for him to hold Kirk and the away team hostage and exchange them for his crew.
No, they did make that assumption. Watch the video, it's one of the first things they say when they get to the plot section.
2) One assumes Khan was working in the Section 31 facility where the augments and various other shit was stored, so that's how he got near them.
3) Marcus wants to instigate war with the Klingons without making it look like he did. So he has Kirk fire the missiles and eliminates the evidence that he ordered it. Anyone who even knows Kirk did it will assume he was acting recklessly like it's established he always does.
I'm not sure why you think giving Kirk the torpedoes aroused anyone's suspicions or compromised the plan. The plan failed because Kirk did the right thing and pulled back from just pursuing vengeance. Otherwise it was going off without a hitch.
4) Khan knows what's going on because that's the whole reason they woke him up. They were using his knowledge of war so obviously he knows what's going on somewhat and the rest his super-genius mind puts together on it's own.
5) Khan goes with Kirk because he's got no choice anymore. He's been discovered by the Klingons now and his plan with the torpedoes has failed since Kirk took him in alive. So once he knows Kirk has his people he gets on board the Enterprise to get near them and then basically wings it. He's in a better position there, within reach of his people, then stuck on Qonos being hunted by Klingons with his people left to die with Kirk when Marcus shows up.
Rich Evans then corrected them on that assumption.
2. And my point was that it was stupid for Section 31 to put Khan near the augments in the first place.
3. Sending Kirk to assassinate someone in direct violation of Federation laws by obliterating an entire province on the homeworld of a hostile race using experimental weapons is pretty damn suspicious. Kirk, Spock, Scotty, and Carol Marcus clearly knew that the order was highly questionable.
As for instigating the war, Marcus was planning to destroy the Enterprise with the Vengeance anyway so it made no difference whether Vengeance fired the torpedoes or if the Enterprise fired them. It would have made more sense for Admiral Marcus to send Kirk to the edge of Klingon space with the far less suspicious orders of arresting Khan and then come in with the Vengeance to destroy the Enterprise and fire the torpedoes.
4. They woke Khan up so he could build weapons for them. It makes no sense to tell him everything about Starfleet and Section 31.
5. Except Khan was not in a better position on the Enterprise since he was held prisoner and the Vengeance was coming to destroy the Enterprise. When Khan told Kirk about the location of the Vengeance, he could not have possibly known that Scotty would slip aboard. Khan knew that the Enterprise was helpless against the Vengeance. He knew that the Vengeance could easily catch up to the Enterprise even if they fled. He basically knew that the Vengeance would destroy the Enterprise, it was just pure luck that Scotty sabotaged it at the right moment.
If he had instead taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage and took their shuttle, he could have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise discovered the truth about the torpedoes, Khan could have arranged a trade.
I don't remember any indication Khan was either aware of or prepared for that possibility.
And I assume he knew of the other augments cause that was part of his price for cooperation and they were all in that same London facility cause that's where Section 31 works out of.
2) The whole point of disabling the weapons seems to have been to get the Enterprise killed by the Klingons, thus starting the war. I thought Marcus only showed up once that didn't happen and to kill Khan when he realises what Kirk has done.
3) Khan is in a better position on the Enterprise cause he's near the only people he actually gives a shit about and in a position to help them. He's in trouble either way cause he knows Marcus is coming after him, as a prisoner he's in a better position to get Kirk's help. What's he gonna do with hostages? It burns more bridges with Kirk and they aren't gonna give him giant deadly torpedoes. They might have just blown him outta the sky.
What were the torpedoes supposed to do? I kinda assumed they were supposed to land on Qonos and deliver Khan's people to him instead of blowing him up, but the script is not the clearest on that point as I remember.
Khan thought his crew was already dead; he didn't have any sneaky plan to reunite with them.
I didn't get the impression Khan thought his crew were already dead, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
Marcus wanted to see Khan and his crew dead in the same big explosion to clean up all these loose ends without having to get his own hands dirty.
2. The Enterprise's engines were disabled, not its weapons. The torpedoes were untraceable so how would the Klingons have found the Enterprise? And another hole in Marcus's plan was that he was depending on Kirk to fire the torpedoes before repairing his engines. What if Kirk had decided to repair the engines before firing the torpedoes? Marcus only realized what Kirk had done after he arrived and he later admitted that he had always planned to destroy the Enterprise.
3. Except Kirk had no way of helping Khan. Khan's best chance of ensuring his own survival and the survival of his crew was to get them away from the Enterprise before Marcus shows up to blow it up. There is absolutely no advantage for Khan to be on the Enterprise since the ship was doomed.
If he had taken Kirk, Spock, and Uhura hostage, he could have proposed an exchange. He would have still told the Enterprise about the torpedoes and the coordinates of the Vengeance. Once the Enterprise found out about the cryotubes, Khan could have proposed to release his hostages in exchange for Enterprise releasing or thawing out his crew.