I was a kid when this came out and it never ceases to impress me that I can watch most of it every few years and it's still great. Yeah, it definitely shows its age and the good stuff mostly happens by the end of Season 4, but man, such good stuff. It's pretty amazing what they managed to pull off with the budget and technology available at the time.
And yeah, to hell with TNT for shitting up what was something that managed to be more impressive in a few years than most of Star Trek had in however-many decades the different series ran. No wonder the stuff outside the main series went to ass; that all happened after TNT got everything, and it suddenly makes a lot more sense as to how their interference wrecked whatever future the series might have had if one of their steps for all that was to bag Boxleitner.
Agreed.
I honestly wouldn't want HBO or Starz to pick up the franchise, though. They'd just throw tits and ass in there as a cheap draw, and I'd hate to see something like B5 cheapened by low-grade antics like that. Not like WB would give it up anyway, but at least they got to wrap the important stuff before getting the Firefly treatment from a shitty network.
HBO and Starz do utilize nudity to a greater degree since they're able to get away with it, but you're wrong about them only using that for cheap fanservice. Especially on HBO with Game of Thrones. Starz isn't as polished with nudity as HBO is though they can produce quality series around it, like Spartacus and Strike Back. It's not like their shows are 24/7 nudity. It's nice to see American shows enjoying sexuality rather than pretending it doesn't exist or hiding it off-screen like we're all children.
I actually disagree here. I don't think they're enjoying sexuality in any sort of meaningful storytelling sense for the most part. I think the nudity, sex, and violence in cable shows are the cable channels doing everything they can to leverage the only advantage they have over network television. Now that no one cares about movies on the "Home Box Office" anymore due to digital streaming and DVDs. To keep viewers they use the weapon they have that others don't, tits. Its comedy how almost every show is (Subject) + (Something you can't do on NBC). Now sometimes, you're absolutely right, and its to the great benefit of the narrative. But most other times, it just seems so superfluous.
Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives…be somewhere else!
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I honestly wouldn't want HBO or Starz to pick up the franchise, though. They'd just throw tits and ass in there as a cheap draw, and I'd hate to see something like B5 cheapened by low-grade antics like that. Not like WB would give it up anyway, but at least they got to wrap the important stuff before getting the Firefly treatment from a shitty network.
HBO and Starz do utilize nudity to a greater degree since they're able to get away with it, but you're wrong about them only using that for cheap fanservice. Especially on HBO with Game of Thrones. Starz isn't as polished with nudity as HBO is though they can produce quality series around it, like Spartacus and Strike Back. It's not like their shows are 24/7 nudity. It's nice to see American shows enjoying sexuality rather than pretending it doesn't exist or hiding it off-screen like we're all children.
Oh, yeah, I know it's not wall-to-wall nudity or anything, but it would be about as classy and fitting as filling the show with Baysplosions.
I mean, B5 came out when I was something like 10 years old and there was virtually nothing on there I wouldn't let a 10-year-old see, and I can still enjoy the series decades later as well share it with siblings and eventually my own kids. But if HBO/Starz got it? Yeah, way too much explicit material there of all kinds, and those guys would definitely run with it just because they could. They'd probably hit the first episode and we'd end up in a space strip club. Would it be a fair and reasonable thing to exist in the B5 universe? Absolutely. Would it really be important to the show? No, but they wouldn't be able to resist.
B5 could've done with being less G-rated, but I'd still rather it be handled by people who wouldn't be compelled to fulfill the nudity-and-blood quota for every episode.
I was a kid when this came out and it never ceases to impress me that I can watch most of it every few years and it's still great. Yeah, it definitely shows its age and the good stuff mostly happens by the end of Season 4, but man, such good stuff. It's pretty amazing what they managed to pull off with the budget and technology available at the time.
And yeah, to hell with TNT for shitting up what was something that managed to be more impressive in a few years than most of Star Trek had in however-many decades the different series ran. No wonder the stuff outside the main series went to ass; that all happened after TNT got everything, and it suddenly makes a lot more sense as to how their interference wrecked whatever future the series might have had if one of their steps for all that was to bag Boxleitner.
Agreed.
I honestly wouldn't want HBO or Starz to pick up the franchise, though. They'd just throw tits and ass in there as a cheap draw, and I'd hate to see something like B5 cheapened by low-grade antics like that. Not like WB would give it up anyway, but at least they got to wrap the important stuff before getting the Firefly treatment from a shitty network.
HBO and Starz do utilize nudity to a greater degree since they're able to get away with it, but you're wrong about them only using that for cheap fanservice. Especially on HBO with Game of Thrones. Starz isn't as polished with nudity as HBO is though they can produce quality series around it, like Spartacus and Strike Back. It's not like their shows are 24/7 nudity. It's nice to see American shows enjoying sexuality rather than pretending it doesn't exist or hiding it off-screen like we're all children.
I actually disagree here. I don't think they're enjoying sexuality in any sort of meaningful storytelling sense for the most part. I think the nudity, sex, and violence in cable shows are the cable channels doing everything they can to leverage the only advantage they have over network television. Now that no one cares about movies on the "Home Box Office" anymore due to digital streaming and DVDs. To keep viewers they use the weapon they have that others don't, tits. Its comedy how almost every show is (Subject) + (Something you can't do on NBC). Now sometimes, you're absolutely right, and its to the great benefit of the narrative. But most other times, it just seems so superfluous.
They'd be idiots not to be exploiting that advantage over their rivals. It's an edge the others can't match. That said, its all in how they execute the scenes and how it impacts the story. I'd like the nudity to play a role like in Game of Thrones, rather than Starz, which is best suited to Babylon 5's tone and narrative.
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
So some B5 related silliness.
My college room mate and I were crazy for the show. So for my birthday one year he got me a cardboard stand up of Londo. I loved it. It was him with that sly shit eatin' grin holding a drink. I put it in my room and I eventually started hanging all of my convention badges from his neck.
Well, let's just say my girlfriend (now my wife) didn't care for Londo as much as I did. She said, "Its like he's watching us do it." I just had to laugh as Londo smiled on and saluted me with his drink
Man I loved this show. I think you'd really struggle to recreate the magic without Londo and G'Kars original actors though. Because god damn they were awesome.
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
And can we talk about supporting cast in this show? How amazing were Bill Mumy and Stephen Furst as Lennier and Vir. Those guys had some of the best character development I've ever seen in a show for secondary characters.
And can we talk about supporting cast in this show? How amazing were Bill Mumy and Stephen Furst as Lennier and Vir. Those guys had some of the best character development I've ever seen in a show for secondary characters.
Lt. "tech #1" Corwin
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
Man I loved this show. I think you'd really struggle to recreate the magic without Londo and G'Kars original actors though. Because god damn they were awesome.
Love this show. Watched it in college during the TNT airing. God it was so ahead of its time. I mean, these days long story arc shows are common place. But back then before DVR and Tivo, it was crazy. You miss and episode and you didn't tape it? Ouch, you may have missed a crucial part of the story. It was such an amazing experience since most of us were used the episodic nature of ST:TNG.
They actually did have the whole shebang up on instant streaming a few years ago. But I guess they lost the rights. It sucked cause I only got to the end of season 3 before they dropped it from Netflix.
Babylon 5 set the groundwork that allowed for other science fiction shows to have longer story arcs. And I think it's one of the very few shows that has a story arc that spans multiple seasons.
And can we talk about supporting cast in this show? How amazing were Bill Mumy and Stephen Furst as Lennier and Vir. Those guys had some of the best character development I've ever seen in a show for secondary characters.
And can we talk about supporting cast in this show? How amazing were Bill Mumy and Stephen Furst as Lennier and Vir. Those guys had some of the best character development I've ever seen in a show for secondary characters.
Lt. "tech #1" Corwin
Yup. Can't find that clip of him in "and now for a word".
Corwin: no, I never feel pressured working at Babylon 5. The command staff is kind and pleasant to work with"
while Ivanova is glaring at him from behind.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, the B5 folks really had heart. Things could get cheezy, but hell if they didn't try as hard as they could to pull it all off.
To be honest, I really don't think I could handle a B5 remake because of the B5 actors. In my mind, those actors are those roles; seeing someone else in them would just be perpetually... bizarre.
Yeah, the B5 folks really had heart. Things could get cheezy, but hell if they didn't try as hard as they could to pull it all off.
To be honest, I really don't think I could handle a B5 remake because of the B5 actors. In my mind, those actors are those roles; seeing someone else in them would just be perpetually... bizarre.
Not a remake, I mean the story has been done. But a continuation or a new series (and thus new actors) I could see.
God I love this show. But it going back and watching it now it can seem really dated at times. Not just the clunky CGI that was OMGrevolutionary at the time, but some of the plot details:
In the episode where the crew is trying to catch a terrorist bomber, someone posits that
the bomber is probably returning to the scene of his attacks and has been caught on security camera video. But there's just too much footage! They'll never be able to process all the images in time! It's too much for even the computer!
So they bring in a bunch of monks whose years of study have given them a nearly supernatural attention to detail and sit them in front of monitors until they recognize the same guy at multiple scenes.
Ahh, the 90s.
To be fair, any SciFi that isn't set in the Singularity or somehow purposefully holding it back is going to run into technical problems that these characters in "the future" can't solve, but we can solve today.
I think you'll find that the monks were hired to invent/implement the facial recognition software. They weren't supernaturally trained like Mentats or anything. They just trained to be computer programmers and information specialists since that was the 23rd century equivalent of making wine and cheeses.
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
did anyone else read Jeanne Cavelos' The Passing of the Technomages trilogy?
I had some issues with it: mostly the constant repetition and some of the changes / clarifications to The Geometry of Shadows, but overall it felt pretty good.
The prequel, The Shadow Within was loads better, though. Thought it really captured Morden, Sheridan, and Anna.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Man I loved this show. I think you'd really struggle to recreate the magic without Londo and G'Kars original actors though. Because god damn they were awesome.
I guess I'm the only B5 fan here who doesn't really want a new series? I mean, the thing I found so great about it was, at least in part, that it was a complete package (also Londo, who we're obviously never getting back). I don't need all of these old pieces of IP strung out for all eternity.
If you're new to B5: the only real drawback to the show is that you kind of have to slog through the 1st season, and it won't be fun. That shit is rough. But it sets-up so many important plot points that you can't really skip it.
Once you get into Season 2, though, it's more or less all smooth sailing. Most of the writing & acting in S3 - S4 is far better than anything in any Star Trek series, and the CGI work is never unbearable (but it's still kinda bad).
Babylon 5 was such an amazing series (up until season 5. that thing was a fucking mess), and I remember having the best time debating people about it's only real rival (star trek) and how B5 was simply supperior due to the fact that people had actual emotions on B5 and character growth, where as star trek mostly had characters who had perhaps 3 go-to emotional states and sort of lurched along in something that could be loosely reffered to as an arc.
I guess I'm the only B5 fan here who doesn't really want a new series? I mean, the thing I found so great about it was, at least in part, that it was a complete package (also Londo, who we're obviously never getting back). I don't need all of these old pieces of IP strung out for all eternity.
If you're new to B5: the only real drawback to the show is that you kind of have to slog through the 1st season, and it won't be fun. That shit is rough. But it sets-up so many important plot points that you can't really skip it.
Once you get into Season 2, though, it's more or less all smooth sailing. Most of the writing & acting in S3 - S4 is far better than anything in any Star Trek series, and the CGI work is never unbearable (but it's still kinda bad).
Babylon 5's alien costuming on many species is still unmatched by Trek. The world building has had greater depth.
Babylon 5's alien costuming on many species is still unmatched by Trek. The world building has had greater depth.
Scoring was better too, for the most part.
In fairness, though, Trek is a pretty low benchmark for costuming. B5 does some great things when they go beyond 'They look like us, but with a fancy wig', but it never quite achieves, say, Dalek levels of fantastic.
Babylon 5's alien costuming on many species is still unmatched by Trek. The world building has had greater depth.
Scoring was better too, for the most part.
In fairness, though, Trek is a pretty low benchmark for costuming. B5 does some great things when they go beyond 'They look like us, but with a fancy wig', but it never quite achieves, say, Dalek levels of fantastic.
Yeah, I'm not sure every good IP needs to have a remake to bring it up to date. I think people forget that the actors make the roles and a remake might come across as crap with the new actors. With sci-fi you always run into the risk where an important plot device seems silly or an advance tech isn't so advanced in reality and trying to fix that could end up making the remake into crap. At most, maybe go back and touch of the CGI to be better and do so in a way that doesn't allow people, who have never seen the series, to catch on that it was redone.
As for expanding the franchise. I'm on the fence. The B5 universe is interesting and I think they did a much better job at fleshing it out than Trek did, hell I'd argue Trek has done a piss poor job of making full use it's universe. My problem though lately it seems like too many franchise IP holders are more keen on expanding and remaking parts of the franchise than doing anything new and innovative. One of my big concerns would be they'd fall into the same pitfall that Trek did, let's do a news series but we'll use essentially the same formula (in Trek's case it was the crew of starship exploring the unknown for the majority of it's series) and failing to further explore the franchise universe enough to make people feel like they got something new.
Frankly I don't see how this could work with today's level of writing. B5 isn't exactly a show about a bunch of young people running down corridors while shit's exploding.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Holy shit, I had no idea so many of the B5 actors had died. There were some older folks in there, sure, but man, that's a pretty sad list.
Anyway, yeah, B5 could get away with what it did because special effects weren't nearly so common then and basically the ONLY heavy-duty scifi shows on TV were Star Trek and B5. Plus, there's ubiquitous internet nowadays, so people aren't restricted to trying to dig up tapes of ancient shows or waiting for reruns. B5 was the only show I ever actively taped, and missing a single episode was always a HUGE letdown because of the lack of there being anything else worthwhile to watch.
On the other hand, Firefly came out about a decade ago at this point and left a massively lasting impression due to the writing, not an abundance of high-octane sequences. Writing could definitely still carry a scifi show, along with a far-reaching story, but the problem is that you've got the one kind of network that will absolutely trash any decent attempt at such a thing (behold Fox, destroyer of wonderful shows), then the other kind of network will do just barely enough halfway-decent writing to make things not seem like complete ass, at least for a little while (hi there, SyFy).
Only Star Trek had enough mass recognition to be able to hold out for series after series in the face of awful writing, but even that didn't last forever.
Back when Crusade was cancelled, I would have killed for them to bring it back. Nowadays? It's too late. Let it sit and be remembered as an awesome show. B5 came, it was awesome, now we remember it's awesomeness by watching it again every now and then.
Without the original actors it doesn't work and too many of them are in too many important positions for anything to really be done without being "No, don't notice he's fucking old now" or just coy about avoiding showing person X because they are dead or something. (/sniff)
I met Bruce Boxleitner last year at Denver Comic Con and talked to him for about half an hour. There was no line. The man has a huge chip on his shoulder with how they treated B5 at TNT. One story he told us is how they forced JMS to change the captain of the Excalibur. It was originally suppose to be Sheriden but one day they called him in, gave him the proverbial watch and pat on the back and said he wouldn't be.
Of course he and JMS have an interesting relationship. They get along but JMS works best when he has a lot of time to write. He didn't with Crusade and that is partially why it was jumbled also.
The other thing he said they had one more full series after Crusade mapped out already. They had another 9 years of shows with scripts and such planned. There was much more in the Babylon universe ready to be made but because of TNT it never was.
As utterly dickish as TNT was, that change was for the better. A new captain gives more interesting story avenues to go down and makes the world feel less small and all about Sheridan. Also, Gideon is awesome and has some fucking cool character setups in Crusade.
I wouldn't really want more B5. What I want is more well plotted sci-fi with some complex villains and awesome characters where there actually is an overarching plan for the seasons.
There's more I'd like outta B5, but it's stuff you'd need to explore in another medium like comics or novels. Specifically, I remember reading somewhere -- the annotated scriptbooks, maybe -- that JMS has Valen's story, but has kinda been sitting on it in case he wanted to do something with it. I would love to know what went down during the first Shadow war.
I mean, come on, who doesn't wanna know what became of Zathras. Er. That particular Zathras, anyway.
A new TV show, though? Eh. I dunno. Crusade was a well-intentioned mixed bag, Rangers was... unfortunate, and that direct-to-DVD thing was just fucking awful. I would almost be more interested in a remake. Almost. Joe certainly had to remix or out-and-out cut enough stuff that there's plenty of room for a similar but very different reboot.
But even then... eh. I'll always have Za'Ha'Dum. And I think that's enough for me.
I'm liking Zack more and more over time. Sure, he'll never reach the level of G'Kar or Londo, but in a cast full of crazies there's still Zack Allen: Normal Guy. And that's kinda nice.
I wonder why JMS never considered making an animated show, the age of the cast wouldn't be a problem. Same thing with Joss Whedon and Firefly, he could have gotten in touch with WB animation and Bruce Timm.
It would have been nice if they didn't wrap up the Shadow War so quickly. There was never really a good sense of why the Vorlons thought enforcing law and order would help the younger races. It would have also been nice if they expanded on how the Vorlons and Shadows decided which races deserved to live and which deserved to die, as well as how the Shadows dealt with mutually assured destruction.
Although, it does seem like the Shadows had the last laugh since they left enough tech behind that can easily shift the balance of power and create a lot of chaos and war.
Posts
Ivanova and the Lumati ambassador:
And Delenn in Severed Dreams:
Also, Green or Purple?
I actually disagree here. I don't think they're enjoying sexuality in any sort of meaningful storytelling sense for the most part. I think the nudity, sex, and violence in cable shows are the cable channels doing everything they can to leverage the only advantage they have over network television. Now that no one cares about movies on the "Home Box Office" anymore due to digital streaming and DVDs. To keep viewers they use the weapon they have that others don't, tits. Its comedy how almost every show is (Subject) + (Something you can't do on NBC). Now sometimes, you're absolutely right, and its to the great benefit of the narrative. But most other times, it just seems so superfluous.
Oh, yeah, I know it's not wall-to-wall nudity or anything, but it would be about as classy and fitting as filling the show with Baysplosions.
I mean, B5 came out when I was something like 10 years old and there was virtually nothing on there I wouldn't let a 10-year-old see, and I can still enjoy the series decades later as well share it with siblings and eventually my own kids. But if HBO/Starz got it? Yeah, way too much explicit material there of all kinds, and those guys would definitely run with it just because they could. They'd probably hit the first episode and we'd end up in a space strip club. Would it be a fair and reasonable thing to exist in the B5 universe? Absolutely. Would it really be important to the show? No, but they wouldn't be able to resist.
B5 could've done with being less G-rated, but I'd still rather it be handled by people who wouldn't be compelled to fulfill the nudity-and-blood quota for every episode.
They'd be idiots not to be exploiting that advantage over their rivals. It's an edge the others can't match. That said, its all in how they execute the scenes and how it impacts the story. I'd like the nudity to play a role like in Game of Thrones, rather than Starz, which is best suited to Babylon 5's tone and narrative.
My college room mate and I were crazy for the show. So for my birthday one year he got me a cardboard stand up of Londo. I loved it. It was him with that sly shit eatin' grin holding a drink. I put it in my room and I eventually started hanging all of my convention badges from his neck.
Well, let's just say my girlfriend (now my wife) didn't care for Londo as much as I did. She said, "Its like he's watching us do it." I just had to laugh as Londo smiled on and saluted me with his drink
That is all.
- John Stuart Mill
Also @cptrugged that's awesome!
Lt. "tech #1" Corwin
yup:
Babylon 5 set the groundwork that allowed for other science fiction shows to have longer story arcs. And I think it's one of the very few shows that has a story arc that spans multiple seasons.
Yup. Can't find that clip of him in "and now for a word".
Corwin: no, I never feel pressured working at Babylon 5. The command staff is kind and pleasant to work with"
while Ivanova is glaring at him from behind.
To be honest, I really don't think I could handle a B5 remake because of the B5 actors. In my mind, those actors are those roles; seeing someone else in them would just be perpetually... bizarre.
Not a remake, I mean the story has been done. But a continuation or a new series (and thus new actors) I could see.
did anyone else read Jeanne Cavelos' The Passing of the Technomages trilogy?
I had some issues with it: mostly the constant repetition and some of the changes / clarifications to The Geometry of Shadows, but overall it felt pretty good.
The prequel, The Shadow Within was loads better, though. Thought it really captured Morden, Sheridan, and Anna.
Especially when contrasted with their relationship later.
I guess I'm the only B5 fan here who doesn't really want a new series? I mean, the thing I found so great about it was, at least in part, that it was a complete package (also Londo, who we're obviously never getting back). I don't need all of these old pieces of IP strung out for all eternity.
If you're new to B5: the only real drawback to the show is that you kind of have to slog through the 1st season, and it won't be fun. That shit is rough. But it sets-up so many important plot points that you can't really skip it.
Once you get into Season 2, though, it's more or less all smooth sailing. Most of the writing & acting in S3 - S4 is far better than anything in any Star Trek series, and the CGI work is never unbearable (but it's still kinda bad).
Babylon 5's alien costuming on many species is still unmatched by Trek. The world building has had greater depth.
Scoring was better too, for the most part.
In fairness, though, Trek is a pretty low benchmark for costuming. B5 does some great things when they go beyond 'They look like us, but with a fancy wig', but it never quite achieves, say, Dalek levels of fantastic.
You, sir, have forgotten the Vorlons.
As for expanding the franchise. I'm on the fence. The B5 universe is interesting and I think they did a much better job at fleshing it out than Trek did, hell I'd argue Trek has done a piss poor job of making full use it's universe. My problem though lately it seems like too many franchise IP holders are more keen on expanding and remaking parts of the franchise than doing anything new and innovative. One of my big concerns would be they'd fall into the same pitfall that Trek did, let's do a news series but we'll use essentially the same formula (in Trek's case it was the crew of starship exploring the unknown for the majority of it's series) and failing to further explore the franchise universe enough to make people feel like they got something new.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Anyway, yeah, B5 could get away with what it did because special effects weren't nearly so common then and basically the ONLY heavy-duty scifi shows on TV were Star Trek and B5. Plus, there's ubiquitous internet nowadays, so people aren't restricted to trying to dig up tapes of ancient shows or waiting for reruns. B5 was the only show I ever actively taped, and missing a single episode was always a HUGE letdown because of the lack of there being anything else worthwhile to watch.
On the other hand, Firefly came out about a decade ago at this point and left a massively lasting impression due to the writing, not an abundance of high-octane sequences. Writing could definitely still carry a scifi show, along with a far-reaching story, but the problem is that you've got the one kind of network that will absolutely trash any decent attempt at such a thing (behold Fox, destroyer of wonderful shows), then the other kind of network will do just barely enough halfway-decent writing to make things not seem like complete ass, at least for a little while (hi there, SyFy).
Only Star Trek had enough mass recognition to be able to hold out for series after series in the face of awful writing, but even that didn't last forever.
Without the original actors it doesn't work and too many of them are in too many important positions for anything to really be done without being "No, don't notice he's fucking old now" or just coy about avoiding showing person X because they are dead or something. (/sniff)
As utterly dickish as TNT was, that change was for the better. A new captain gives more interesting story avenues to go down and makes the world feel less small and all about Sheridan. Also, Gideon is awesome and has some fucking cool character setups in Crusade.
Apocalypse Box ftw.
A new TV show, though? Eh. I dunno. Crusade was a well-intentioned mixed bag, Rangers was... unfortunate, and that direct-to-DVD thing was just fucking awful. I would almost be more interested in a remake. Almost. Joe certainly had to remix or out-and-out cut enough stuff that there's plenty of room for a similar but very different reboot.
But even then... eh. I'll always have Za'Ha'Dum. And I think that's enough for me.
It would have been nice if they didn't wrap up the Shadow War so quickly. There was never really a good sense of why the Vorlons thought enforcing law and order would help the younger races. It would have also been nice if they expanded on how the Vorlons and Shadows decided which races deserved to live and which deserved to die, as well as how the Shadows dealt with mutually assured destruction.
Although, it does seem like the Shadows had the last laugh since they left enough tech behind that can easily shift the balance of power and create a lot of chaos and war.