Tactics to make a nation lose common sense

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  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Rentilius wrote: »
    One might forgive me for ranting here but I'm sitting here after reading that with adrenaline coursing through my veins:

    what the fucking christ?! what the fuck? was there ever a fucking plan in Iraq that wasn't retarded beyond all measure? why the fuck are the executives of these companies still alive let alone not in jail? Jesus fucking christ and you think the AWB in Australia was bad, when the American fucking government keeps talking about detaining people without trial and needing more power to investigate American citizens why the fucking christ are people being allowed to commit treason at the expense of the lives of god damn soldiers after they themselves clusterfucked the occupation to the point where it became as dangerous as it did never mind that officially they fucking lied to get the war started in the fucking first place.

    yeah, we suck.
    I'm not really directing this at Americans in general, it's directed at the Bush administration specifically. However I'm feeling cold enough that if he dies I will pop champagne.

    I will fly out to join you. Not that I agree with him being dead, but because I like to drink.

    tyrannus on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    President Cheney is the tempering factor.

    electricitylikesme on
  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    There have been articles like that since before we invaded. Intelligent people read them and flip out. The general public ignores them, therefore so do politicians. This is why I like jerks like Howard Dean and kooks like Kucinich, because they just don't give a fuck.
    President Cheney is the tempering factor.
    How about this, Dubya dies in a freak bicycle accident because he looked left, then right, but not left again before crossing. Cheney's dark heart is so overjoyed at the new power that he dies of cardiac arrest.

    We now have interim President Pelosi. What do you do?

    hmm...I italicized a lot of words in this post.

    templewulf on
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  • Mithrandir86Mithrandir86 Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    templewulf wrote: »
    There have been articles like that since before we invaded. Intelligent people read them and flip out. The general public ignores them, therefore so do politicians. This is why I like jerks like Howard Dean and kooks like Kucinich, because they just don't give a fuck.
    President Cheney is the tempering factor.
    How about this, Dubya dies in a freak bicycle accident because he looked left, then right, but not left again before crossing. Cheney's dark heart is so overjoyed at the new power that he dies of cardiac arrest.

    We now have interim President Pelosi. What do you do?

    hmm...I italicized a lot of words in this post.

    I quit my job to reap in the welfare, then I hop a free bus to have gay sex in a library. Also, I reconnect with my Arabian penpal.

    Mithrandir86 on
    MKR wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    Sausage and pancake on a stick is actually pretty good. And it's convenient if you need to go out early in the morning and don't want to be half-dead from lack of sustenance by 10.

    That's why god invented the bagel and gave it to his chosen people.

    Bagels do not sate me because I am not a heathen.
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    Chompsky is generally content with his broad generalizations backed up by one example of evidence as long as it confirms his beliefs.

    I find his ineptitude at reasoning depressing.

    I don't see how you can say something like this. Have you ever read any of his books? Do you realize how much of every single page consists of footnotes? Hell, if anything, Chomsky is criticized for having too much evidence to support his arguments.

    I agree that he is depressing, but arguing that he has little evidence to back up his beliefs is asinine.

    ege02 on
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    Chompsky is generally content with his broad generalizations backed up by one example of evidence as long as it confirms his beliefs.

    I find his ineptitude at reasoning depressing.

    I don't see how you can say something like this. Have you ever read any of his books? Do you realize how much of every single page consists of footnotes? Hell, if anything, Chomsky is criticized for having too much evidence to support his arguments.

    I agree that he is depressing, but arguing that he has little evidence to back up his beliefs is asinine.

    No. I have read his books. Numerous citations is not the same thing as providing numerous examples of evidence.

    Shinto on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    Chompsky is generally content with his broad generalizations backed up by one example of evidence as long as it confirms his beliefs.

    I find his ineptitude at reasoning depressing.

    I don't see how you can say something like this. Have you ever read any of his books? Do you realize how much of every single page consists of footnotes? Hell, if anything, Chomsky is criticized for having too much evidence to support his arguments.

    I agree that he is depressing, but arguing that he has little evidence to back up his beliefs is asinine.

    No. I have read his books. Numerous citations is not the same thing as providing numerous examples of evidence.

    I insist that all of his citations are relevant to his arguments and most of them actually back them up.

    I mean, I'm not sure what other purpose you think citations serve, other than evidence to back up arguments...

    ege02 on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I think everyone's heard of Milgram's test and how average people would end up losing all common sense because they were told to by an authority figure. Well, that's not quit right - they ignore their common sense and more than half end up killing an innocent person for it.

    Link.

    So the question is how do people end up getting that bad? They know they're doing wrong but they continue.

    emnmnme on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    It's also quite shocking that the article is in Rolling Stone. Not The Economist, WSJ, Times, BBC or any news media - just a Dadrock magazine.

    Fucking disgusting.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Mithrandir86Mithrandir86 Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    poshniallo wrote: »
    It's also quite shocking that the article is in Rolling Stone. Not The Economist, WSJ, Times, BBC or any news media - just a Dadrock magazine.

    Fucking disgusting.

    Its presence in the Rolling Stone exclusively hampers its reliability; it says nothing about the other news sources.

    And The Economist does not engage in investigative journalism, mostly.

    Mithrandir86 on
    MKR wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    Sausage and pancake on a stick is actually pretty good. And it's convenient if you need to go out early in the morning and don't want to be half-dead from lack of sustenance by 10.

    That's why god invented the bagel and gave it to his chosen people.

    Bagels do not sate me because I am not a heathen.
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    Chompsky is generally content with his broad generalizations backed up by one example of evidence as long as it confirms his beliefs.

    I find his ineptitude at reasoning depressing.

    I don't see how you can say something like this. Have you ever read any of his books? Do you realize how much of every single page consists of footnotes? Hell, if anything, Chomsky is criticized for having too much evidence to support his arguments.

    I agree that he is depressing, but arguing that he has little evidence to back up his beliefs is asinine.

    No. I have read his books. Numerous citations is not the same thing as providing numerous examples of evidence.

    I insist that all of his citations are relevant to his arguments and most of them actually back them up.

    Uh huh.

    This is what Chompsky is like.

    "International elites and their corporate governance of nation states breed economic chaos for the lower levels of the societies they manipulate. Recently, in many regions of Mexico, tortilla prices jumped by more than 50 per cent. [Citation] In January, in Mexico City, tens of thousands of workers and farmers rallied in the Zocalo, the city’s central square, to protest the skyrocketing cost of tortillas.[Citation] This is a result of reinvestment of capital in ethanol production following the unsuccessful attempt to appropriate and dominate the oil stocks of the Middle East."

    It's nice that he has citations there, but the exact quantity of the jump in the price of tortillas and the timing and location of resultant protests is not the controversial content in that paragraph. He's formed his convictions long ago, he's surrounded my a cult of followers who worship him and he isn't invested in anything besides giving "Noam Chompsky's take" on any given situation. He's a walking Dogma.

    Shinto on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    I don't see what you're getting at.

    He makes arguments and backs them up with facts, and he uses the arguments to form and present his opinions and perspectives, which are depressing like I said, but still valid.

    ege02 on
  • KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    And we know how much Americans hate taxes and federal interference.

    We hate taxes, but we're more than happy to let the gubmint babysit us in a dangerous world full of turrists and america-haters. So long as they don't take our money, they can do whatever they want.

    Which of course means they have to take money from countries like China, which (come collection time) are going to screw us over.

    Kazhiim on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Yeah, I really don't see what's wrong with the argument there.

    Edit: Chomsky's, that is.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • Mithrandir86Mithrandir86 Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    I don't see what you're getting at.

    He makes arguments and backs them up with facts, and he uses the arguments to form and present his opinions and perspectives, which are depressing like I said, but still valid.

    He is arguing that Chomsky cites assertions that uncontentious, leaving the contentious statements uncited.

    To take his example:

    "International elites and their corporate governance of nation states breed economic chaos for the lower levels of the societies they manipulate. Recently, in many regions of Mexico, tortilla prices jumped by more than 50 per cent. [Citation - Not contentious] In January, in Mexico City, tens of thousands of workers and farmers rallied in the Zocalo, the city’s central square, to protest the skyrocketing cost of tortillas.[Citation - Anyone could find this is a newspaper] This is a result of reinvestment of capital in ethanol production i]no citation - and it is not exactly difficult to find these numbers[/i following the unsuccessful attempt to appropriate and dominate the oil stocks of the Middle East i]where is my fucking citation?[/i.

    In case you are wondering, the subsidies involved with ethanol production are criminally irresponsible - and do put the world's poorest in danger of starvation.

    Mithrandir86 on
    MKR wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    Sausage and pancake on a stick is actually pretty good. And it's convenient if you need to go out early in the morning and don't want to be half-dead from lack of sustenance by 10.

    That's why god invented the bagel and gave it to his chosen people.

    Bagels do not sate me because I am not a heathen.
  • Low KeyLow Key Registered User
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I think everyone's heard of Milgram's test and how average people would end up losing all common sense because they were told to by an authority figure. Well, that's not quit right - they ignore their common sense and more than half end up killing an innocent person for it.

    Link.

    So the question is how do people end up getting that bad? They know they're doing wrong but they continue.

    The problem with Milgram's is that it highlights the best and worst of human heuristic thinking and then everybody focuses entirely on saying "hey look, people suck" and talking about conformity and agentic state wank. But there is also a strong element of common sense working the other way.

    Half the people in that study were able to follow instructions without being concerned that they were taking an innocent life. Why? Because they weren't. There is a very smart, very strong part of the human brain telling them that the local university doesn't run experiments designed to kill people, that people don't say "please sir, may I have another" everytime they get given scream inducing electric shocks, and that psychologists don't act like impotent bullies whenever you try to refuse their requests. The events that they were experiencing didn't make any rational sense and that creates an incredibly debilitating and uncomfortable disconnection, whereapon the easiest option is just to go with the flow, under the assumption that it'll all be explained later on.

    The good thing is that people are generally fairly skeptical of attempts to baffle common sense. The bad news is that there genuinely are people out there who are willing to electrocute the metaphorical psych student, and their willingness to do the unthinkable gives them an automatic advantage over common sense.

    Low Key on
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    I don't see what you're getting at.

    He makes arguments and backs them up with facts, and he uses the arguments to form and present his opinions and perspectives, which are depressing like I said, but still valid.

    What is controversial is his assertions about the way the world works. He doesn't really support or defend those anymore though, he just comments on things from his perspective. There are a lot of different ways to explain why there is increased investment in ethanol - his citations do no back up or in any way contribute to supporting the causes he ascribes to event.

    When he does address these causes at all, he'll give one lame ass example like "more coverage of massacres in Cambodia than in Indonesia in the New York times prove there is a media conspiracy lead by arms corporations!" Which is to say that his extraordinary claims have very very pedestrian proof.

    He might as well write that the Galactic rulers of the planet Blargh create chaos at the lower levels of the economic chain, because they are losing their proxy war with the fuzzy pets of Orion Legion in Iraq. This causes greater investment in ethanol resulting in an increased prices of tortillas [citation].

    Shinto on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    That's a fine point, low key. While I'll bet all of those tested thought they were hurting someone, a few might have wised up and went with the flow. It kinda makes me wonder when that factoid that 10% of American high schoolers can't find the US on an unmarked map - some of them have to be dicking with the results and playing dumb, just going with the flow.

    OK, taking a step back, what about Christmas or Channukah presents? Kids want to open the presents right away and they're left unguarded under the tree or whatever. It's shaky to say it's overriding common sense but really, that's a juicy gift-wrapped present with your name on it. What's stopping them - the tradition of opening presents together or the fear that Santa Claus will leave you coal if you peek? Again, not really a common sense thing or even a broken will thing but it's still relevant. Kind of.

    emnmnme on
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Low Key wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I think everyone's heard of Milgram's test and how average people would end up losing all common sense because they were told to by an authority figure. Well, that's not quit right - they ignore their common sense and more than half end up killing an innocent person for it.

    Link.

    So the question is how do people end up getting that bad? They know they're doing wrong but they continue.

    The problem with Milgram's is that it highlights the best and worst of human heuristic thinking and then everybody focuses entirely on saying "hey look, people suck" and talking about conformity and agentic state wank. But there is also a strong element of common sense working the other way.

    Half the people in that study were able to follow instructions without being concerned that they were taking an innocent life. Why? Because they weren't. There is a very smart, very strong part of the human brain telling them that the local university doesn't run experiments designed to kill people, that people don't say "please sir, may I have another" everytime they get given scream inducing electric shocks, and that psychologists don't act like impotent bullies whenever you try to refuse their requests. The events that they were experiencing didn't make any rational sense and that creates an incredibly debilitating and uncomfortable disconnection, whereapon the easiest option is just to go with the flow, under the assumption that it'll all be explained later on.

    The good thing is that people are generally fairly skeptical of attempts to baffle common sense. The bad news is that there genuinely are people out there who are willing to electrocute the metaphorical psych student, and their willingness to do the unthinkable gives them an automatic advantage over common sense.
    Also, this type of experiment is now super banned and considered highly unethical by the APA and other associations.
    I don't even watch the news anymore. I seriously think America is being fucked so many different ways that I can't bear to hear it anymore.
    Katrina
    Iraq
    Economy
    Scandals
    Doublespeak
    And all that gets covered on the news is some one-view-pointed crap
    I hate bipartisanship
    D:
    It's like voting for who is the least crappy

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    That's a fine point, low key. While I'll bet all of those tested thought they were hurting someone, a few might have wised up and went with the flow. It kinda makes me wonder when that factoid that 10% of American high schoolers can't find the US on an unmarked map - some of them have to be dicking with the results and playing dumb, just going with the flow.

    OK, taking a step back, what about Christmas or Channukah presents? Kids want to open the presents right away and they're left unguarded under the tree or whatever. It's shaky to say it's overriding common sense but really, that's a juicy gift-wrapped present with your name on it. What's stopping them - the tradition of opening presents together or the fear that Santa Claus will leave you coal if you peek? Again, not really a common sense thing or even a broken will thing but it's still relevant. Kind of.
    I really don't like factoids like that, because they're not nearly as obvious as people make them out to be. There is very very little that is truly common sense (I would argue nothing, actually) and people are brought up and learn to think about things in different ways, or are just interested in different things. While I know my basic geography, I frequently get the order of the historical periods of Britain confused because I just don't care about that.

    electricitylikesme on
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    Anyone remember Rick Gannon?

    siliconenhanced on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Anyone remember Rick Gannon?

    No...also I'm not sure which subthread discussion you're responding too, so um, elaborate?

    electricitylikesme on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    ... I'm pretty sure all Australian schoolchildren can find Australia on a map, though.

    emnmnme on
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    ... I'm pretty sure all Australian schoolchildren can find Australia on a map, though.

    That's because we're a big distinctive island, and the shape of Australia is frequently used as a symbol, because it's geographically disconnected from its surroundings. Unlike the USA.

    Crimson King on
  • FallingmanFallingman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    ... I'm pretty sure all Australian schoolchildren can find Australia on a map, though.

    That's because we're a big distinctive island, and the shape of Australia is frequently used as a symbol, because it's geographically disconnected from its surroundings. Unlike the USA.

    Well, in all fairness - its quite easy to miss the US... All tucked away way down there.*

    *
    Bastardised Homer Simpson quote.

    Fallingman on
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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    A picture of the continental US is often used as a symbol, however when looking at a globe or an unmarked map of North America, it would make it easier to find if Canada and Mexico werent distorting the clean lines of the North & South borders respectively.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • Low KeyLow Key Registered User
    edited August 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    That's a fine point, low key. While I'll bet all of those tested thought they were hurting someone, a few might have wised up and went with the flow. It kinda makes me wonder when that factoid that 10% of American high schoolers can't find the US on an unmarked map - some of them have to be dicking with the results and playing dumb, just going with the flow.

    There have been a number of restrospectives by participants in the Milgram experiment. A few claim they saw through the whole thing, a very small number felt deeply violated by the experience and the majority just accepted or were glad that they had been able to play a part.

    When I talk about going with the flow, I don't mean that people completely saw through the experimenters' intentions; rather there was such an enormous disconnect with the events they were being presented with and their intuitive understanding of how the world works that they are caught fast. And in this very confused and vulnerable state, a form of social inertia seems to take over, which makes individuals very easy to coerce and manipulate.

    Low Key on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Anyone remember Rick Gannon?

    Do you mean Jeff Gannon?

    Loren Michael on
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