Cass fans hated Steph when she was first Batgirl, Tim Drake fans hated Damian when he was introduced, Haper Row fans will hate whoever replaces her. It's the circle of life.
I feel like if we could sneak a peek at the creators "Harper File" there wouldn't be more than half a dozen bullet points worth of buzz words and a few sketches.
I wouldn't be surprised if I end up really enjoying the character a year from now (I wasn't a fan of Damian for at least that long).
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I think what made Steph get hated on was not her, but how DC switched her out. They just threw Cass away with OYL and were like "oh well."
It's one thing to have a character just retire for a bit for a new person, it's another to just drag them down for the hell of it. This was personified by how Hal Jordan went lightswitch crazy.
No, they hated Steph. There would be threads upon threads on how Steph was terrible for triggering war games, how she wasn't good enough to be batgirl, or that a bat book shouldn't be "lighthearted and funny.
No, they hated Steph. There would be threads upon threads on how Steph was terrible for triggering war games, how she wasn't good enough to be batgirl, or that a bat book shouldn't be "lighthearted and funny.
Those weren't really coming form the scans_daily/tumblr crowd, who prefer lighthearted books and had a softspot for Steph due to her time as Spoiler.
Those types probably disagreed with Steph replacing Cass, but they didn't hate the character.
Though that still doesn't really make sense for harper since she isn't replacing either character, she's replacing Robin or Oracle. The hate should be directed at Babs for taking their spot since other than having a vagina and a dad in prison cass/steph have really nothing in common with harper.
I have no opinion on Brown or Cain and I'm waiting for a reason why I should care about Harper Row. She's a person that exists, but I find her uninteresting as a character. I realize she hasn't had a lot of time in the comics yet, but neither has Tomasi's Carrie Kelly and she's already a much more interesting character than Row.
No, they hated Steph. There would be threads upon threads on how Steph was terrible for triggering war games, how she wasn't good enough to be batgirl, or that a bat book shouldn't be "lighthearted and funny.
I think those were in the minority. Most Cass fans are fully aware of how badly editorial screwed the character. They wouldn't blame Steph for War Games, since that was an editorial decision which involved making Steph into Robin specifically so that she could be brutally murdered.
Still waiting for that dimension-displaced lineup book of Cass Cain, Stephanie Brown, Wally West, Donna Troy, and Renee Montoya as their own team, saving the day and coping with a world that forgot they existed post-flashpoint.
It's my understanding that a noticeable amount of Cass/Steph fans hate Harper Row.
I know she's also been regarded as being a blatant manipulation attempt by the author.
Interesting. Most of the sentiment towards Harper I've seen on tumblr is positive. I'd be interested in seein where you are seeing negative sentiment towards her!
@vagrant_winds funny I had this idea for a similar plot set in Bludhaven which is now disconnected from the Rey of reality
It's my understanding that a noticeable amount of Cass/Steph fans hate Harper Row.
I know she's also been regarded as being a blatant manipulation attempt by the author.
Interesting. Most of the sentiment towards Harper I've seen on tumblr is positive. I'd be interested in seein where you are seeing negative sentiment towards her!
@vagrant_winds funny I had this idea for a similar plot set in Bludhaven which is now disconnected from the Rey of reality
I personally have no negative sentiment towards the character, but at the same time my feeling is "why should I care?" Currently, I don't. She's been in 3-4 issues so far, and none of them have made me want to learn anything else about the character.
On a related note, how is she even going to stay relevant with Zero Year coming up with the next issue? I feel a very uncomfortable and forced retconning of her into Bruce's past coming up.
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
Maybe not, hasn't there been some suggestions that Zero Year is going to alternate between present-day Gotham and Bruce's origin story? Hope springs eternal, etc
I really, really enjoyed the first issue of Zero Year.
I can't believe I just typed that. I've thought Snyder's run started out so-so, and then took a dive during the Joker story. I hate the idea of yet another retelling of the origin, but I'm digging the adventures of Bruceman a lot.
Okay wow. Yeah that was great. He is really taking it in a different direction. This doesn't feel at all like a Year One retread. So I'm guessing the idea is Batman's proving grounds are now post earth quake Gotham? That could really work. I just hope Snyder pulls through to the end with this story.
Also give The Wake a read and tell me it doesn't give you super similar vibes to this issue!
Which pretty much sums up everything wrong with DC, and their "make things gritty!" attitude.
Have you read earth one? Because it is paticularly gritty for a batman story. Anyway some of you will remember I raged about the episode of batb where Bruce is spoiled but I'm not so bothered here. I guess because its not Batman. It's an alternate Batman.
I really dug Earth One. I'm sure Johns didn't directly intend it to be this way, but it's almost like a response to grittiness in comics. The violence and the horrible things all have real consequences on the characters, and what they do with Harvey Bullock is absolutely incredible.
I don't really care for deconstruction in comics anymore because that approach is often what pushes books to be over the top with violence and negative attitudes. That's not really what I want from my escapism. But with Batman: Earth One, Johns takes that element of just horrific shit that has been present in batman for the last 25+ years, and has all the protagonists react to it the way they should.
I hope we actually get Vol 2 sooner than later now that Frank has been done with Shazam for a little while.
I don't see the problem as being too much grit. It's a scene where a kid's parents are killed in front of him. That's already pretty gritty.
What Johns does wrong are the small touches he added to make it clear that Bruce would blame himself for his parents' murder. It just feels very heavy-handed and unnecessary, especially since Batman has never had trouble finding reasons to blame himself in the past.
Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
I don't normally do this sort of thing, but that Batman Earth One sequence is actually...well.
It's a fairly novel take on the Crime Alley scene, or whatever you want to call it. I like that Bruce didn't even get to see the movie in this version.
Now, mind you, I'm not 100% about the art, and the last three panels in the sequence don't look so great. But it really is so damn hard to explore new ways of reinterpreting Batman's origin in a meaningful way that still manages to accomplish the right themes and through line.
I agree with Linespider. It's a solid sequence. Having your parents murdered tends to be... Gritty. I like the extra layer that Bruce sort of triggered the event by mouthing off about how rich his family is. There's seriously nothing wrong here!
No he was still raised and hardened in a prison in Santa Prisca but now the nation worships him like a god and he slaughters them for no really comprehensible reason. I think they kinda drew on the movie version...
I haven't followed his character ina while so maybe that's already where he was at?
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
He wasn't. Pre New 52 he had just wrapped up the Secret Six arc, which was all about him learning to appreciate other people more, even developing a fatherly relationship with Scandal Savage, but then rejecting that and going back to trying to kill Batman. Still, he deferred to his team and some issues, and while he was a cold-blooded killer he killed with purpose.
So, now, the New 52 version is yet another in a long line of shitty Bane stories. Which is a shame, he's got one of the more interesting personalities of the Bat-villains.
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I feel like if we could sneak a peek at the creators "Harper File" there wouldn't be more than half a dozen bullet points worth of buzz words and a few sketches.
I wouldn't be surprised if I end up really enjoying the character a year from now (I wasn't a fan of Damian for at least that long).
It's one thing to have a character just retire for a bit for a new person, it's another to just drag them down for the hell of it. This was personified by how Hal Jordan went lightswitch crazy.
Those weren't really coming form the scans_daily/tumblr crowd, who prefer lighthearted books and had a softspot for Steph due to her time as Spoiler.
Those types probably disagreed with Steph replacing Cass, but they didn't hate the character.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I think those were in the minority. Most Cass fans are fully aware of how badly editorial screwed the character. They wouldn't blame Steph for War Games, since that was an editorial decision which involved making Steph into Robin specifically so that she could be brutally murdered.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Interesting. Most of the sentiment towards Harper I've seen on tumblr is positive. I'd be interested in seein where you are seeing negative sentiment towards her!
@vagrant_winds funny I had this idea for a similar plot set in Bludhaven which is now disconnected from the Rey of reality
I personally have no negative sentiment towards the character, but at the same time my feeling is "why should I care?" Currently, I don't. She's been in 3-4 issues so far, and none of them have made me want to learn anything else about the character.
On a related note, how is she even going to stay relevant with Zero Year coming up with the next issue? I feel a very uncomfortable and forced retconning of her into Bruce's past coming up.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
At least it was an awesome filler issue. Morrison nails engrish so well haha.
And yay for the Super Young Team namedrop. I still want my Super Young Team ongoing, damnit.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I can't believe I just typed that. I've thought Snyder's run started out so-so, and then took a dive during the Joker story. I hate the idea of yet another retelling of the origin, but I'm digging the adventures of Bruceman a lot.
Also give The Wake a read and tell me it doesn't give you super similar vibes to this issue!
Which pretty much sums up everything wrong with DC, and their "make things gritty!" attitude.
Have you read earth one? Because it is paticularly gritty for a batman story. Anyway some of you will remember I raged about the episode of batb where Bruce is spoiled but I'm not so bothered here. I guess because its not Batman. It's an alternate Batman.
I don't really care for deconstruction in comics anymore because that approach is often what pushes books to be over the top with violence and negative attitudes. That's not really what I want from my escapism. But with Batman: Earth One, Johns takes that element of just horrific shit that has been present in batman for the last 25+ years, and has all the protagonists react to it the way they should.
I hope we actually get Vol 2 sooner than later now that Frank has been done with Shazam for a little while.
Aw, come on, Superman: Earth One had a fair share of lighthearted moments.
What Johns does wrong are the small touches he added to make it clear that Bruce would blame himself for his parents' murder. It just feels very heavy-handed and unnecessary, especially since Batman has never had trouble finding reasons to blame himself in the past.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
It's a fairly novel take on the Crime Alley scene, or whatever you want to call it. I like that Bruce didn't even get to see the movie in this version.
Now, mind you, I'm not 100% about the art, and the last three panels in the sequence don't look so great. But it really is so damn hard to explore new ways of reinterpreting Batman's origin in a meaningful way that still manages to accomplish the right themes and through line.
It's a solid effort.
that said, I really enjoyed Batman: Earth One
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I haven't followed his character ina while so maybe that's already where he was at?
So, now, the New 52 version is yet another in a long line of shitty Bane stories. Which is a shame, he's got one of the more interesting personalities of the Bat-villains.