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[Planetary Annihilation] Beta has landed. Via asteroid impact.

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    I get goosebumps from the classical music and chorus. Definitely the right way to go with music.

    That's not actually the orchestral recording yet. All the music tracks are placeholder at the moment, they ought to be doing the actual orchestral recording sometime soon.

  • VaeVae Registered User regular
    Anyone know how long a game takes on average?

  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    Vae wrote: »
    Anyone know how long a game takes on average?

    Varies a lot more than most RTS's since it depends on planet size, how many players, game mode. Can go from 20 minutes to full on 2+ hours.

    It's definitely slower paced compared to games like Starcraft or CoH, so I'd say maybe around the 45-50 minute mark at a stretch for a 1v1 on a medium planet. But as I said it's extremely variable. And as with everything else, it's likely to change as balance and times shift.

    subedii on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    I get that they have to honor the kickstarter thing, but paying extra to beta test is absolutely stupid. No reason whatsoever not to wait till December and play a more finished and cheaper version.

    Agreed. If they didn't actually want/couldn't accomodate more testers, then they shouldn't have bloody put it up on Steam.

  • TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    the reason it was put on steam was because it was asked for as a greenlight type game. Of course it did cause a huge backlash as the people who did not kickstart the game to get alpha/beta access as a reward don't understand that listing the game for under retail would be a huge blow to those who paid for the access.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I understand the reasons. I'm saying that under those conditions and restrictions, it should never have been put on Steam.
    (Until it was released, obviously(?).)

  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    So the resource system in this is that same kind of SupCom type thing. That thing I am awful at. Any tips from people who have been playing this so far? Also the camera is taking some serious figuring out. The UI is currently really bad and full of zero information, but it's also beta, so that's expected.

  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    So the resource system in this is that same kind of SupCom type thing. That thing I am awful at. Any tips from people who have been playing this so far? Also the camera is taking some serious figuring out. The UI is currently really bad and full of zero information, but it's also beta, so that's expected.

    There's not much complexity to it, it just requires more constant attention than you might be accustomed to from other RTS games. In SupComm (NOT SupComm 2) it had quite a learning curve, but added an interesting additional dimension to strategy. In this model it's not a matter of getting enough resources so that you can stop worrying about it and start attacking the enemy, but about controlled expansion and constant fighting.

    The other important difference is that you never pay for stuff up front, but that resources (energy and metal) are consumed in a stream, over time. So if you start too many projects at the same time, your buffer will run out of resources and all those construction projects (units and buildings) will slow down to the rate of resource income.

    But yeah, it's not really complex, it's just a different approach to how warcraft-esque games handle it.

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    indeed. you have to account for the rate at which your construction units consume the resources.
    I don't know the rate which units consume in Planetary Annihilation, but I did in Total Annihilation.

    Also keep in mind that when your buffer is gone, the resource production is split evenly between all of your consumers. so if you got 10 constructors that usually pull 20 units of metal each, that means you need 200 metal per second to keep up with demand. If you only produced 100 metal per second, your 10 constructors would each pull 10 metal each second, halving construction times, which is more deadly than no construction at all in this type of game.

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  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    indeed. you have to account for the rate at which your construction units consume the resources.
    I don't know the rate which units consume in Planetary Annihilation, but I did in Total Annihilation.

    Also keep in mind that when your buffer is gone, the resource production is split evenly between all of your consumers. so if you got 10 constructors that usually pull 20 units of metal each, that means you need 200 metal per second to keep up with demand. If you only produced 100 metal per second, your 10 constructors would each pull 10 metal each second, halving construction times, which is more deadly than no construction at all in this type of game.

    Well, at this point the rates and units are all subject to change... they still seem to be rapidly iterating on all of that. I strongly suspect that the final UI will be a lot more comprehensive than what we have right now, too ;)

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    right, i was just giving an example of how this type of resource system works using arbitrary numbers. however, your resources are split evenly among all your construction units until their consumption max rate is satiated.

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  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    right, i was just giving an example of how this type of resource system works using arbitrary numbers. however, your resources are split evenly among all your construction units until their consumption max rate is satiated.

    Sorry, must have come across differently than I meant it. I was referring to this bit:
    I don't know the rate which units consume in Planetary Annihilation, but I did in Total Annihilation.

    But yeah, I like this approach to the economy. Loved it in SupComm, and I'm glad they're not straying far from that.

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  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Ehh, I fucking hate that style of economy but I'll get over it just like I did in SupCom1.

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  • FuselageFuselage Oosik Jumpship LoungeRegistered User regular
    edited September 2013
    I'll keep watching this thread develop to see how it goes. @DaMoonRulz and I played TA in the days of old...miss those days. Seven Islands with a wall of cannons and anti-air. Mmm.

    Fuselage on
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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    I liked seven islands, but after a while, I started hating metal maps. It's much more meaningful when you are fighting over that +2.0 metal deposit that will tip the balance into your favor.
    With metal worlds, it just meant who could build your army of korgoths quicker.

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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    So I picked this up on Friday and gave it a whirl. A few things that I've been noticing (I know, I know...beta):

    1) It feels more like Total Annihilation than it does Supreme Commander
    2) Right now, the minimal AI is great for checking out the system the game uses (it only builds bombers and a handful of interceptors)
    3) Holy crap...some bugs are infuriating (such as losing all UI commands except for zoom in/zoom out)
    4) Dropping a medium-sized moon on an enemy commander is a REALLY bad idea since the enemy commander bugs out and is removed from the match without being recognized as being destroyed.

    Even though the game is in a pretty rough condition right now (from what I've heard from a friend of mine who got in on the alpha, it's a bit better), I'm really enjoying it. Sure, the bugs are irksome, but I can deal with it since the game is still being developed. It heavily reminds me of Total Annihilation and the fun times I would have in that game...so I am looking forward to see how the game progresses.

    Oh, also, metal planets are not like TA metal planets in that you can just plop down metal extractors on every flat surface. The fight for metal nodes seems to be something PA takes very seriously.

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • Captain KCaptain K Registered User regular
    Your point 1) is all I needed to hear.

    I'm not paying extra for early access, but I'm pretty damn sure I'm buying a retail version of this game on day 1.

  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    So I picked this up on Friday and gave it a whirl. A few things that I've been noticing (I know, I know...beta):

    1) It feels more like Total Annihilation than it does Supreme Commander
    2) Right now, the minimal AI is great for checking out the system the game uses (it only builds bombers and a handful of interceptors)
    3) Holy crap...some bugs are infuriating (such as losing all UI commands except for zoom in/zoom out)
    4) Dropping a medium-sized moon on an enemy commander is a REALLY bad idea since the enemy commander bugs out and is removed from the match without being recognized as being destroyed.

    Even though the game is in a pretty rough condition right now (from what I've heard from a friend of mine who got in on the alpha, it's a bit better), I'm really enjoying it. Sure, the bugs are irksome, but I can deal with it since the game is still being developed. It heavily reminds me of Total Annihilation and the fun times I would have in that game...so I am looking forward to see how the game progresses.

    Oh, also, metal planets are not like TA metal planets in that you can just plop down metal extractors on every flat surface. The fight for metal nodes seems to be something PA takes very seriously.

    4) Worked for me, but unfortunately I destroyed the entire planet while doing it, costing me my own commander, too.

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  • TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    maybe its just me, but not having shields is kind of bothering me. I mean how do you stop random destruction from artillery if you don't have a nice shield bubble over your base

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    Kashaar wrote: »
    right, i was just giving an example of how this type of resource system works using arbitrary numbers. however, your resources are split evenly among all your construction units until their consumption max rate is satiated.

    Sorry, must have come across differently than I meant it. I was referring to this bit:
    I don't know the rate which units consume in Planetary Annihilation, but I did in Total Annihilation.

    But yeah, I like this approach to the economy. Loved it in SupComm, and I'm glad they're not straying far from that.

    Yeah, it's also worth noting that unlike in other RTS's, you make use of storage buildings for both mass and energy.

    I'll try to give a rough summary rundown on how this works for anyone not used to rate based economies. Honestly it takes FAR more to describe than it does to learn to use, it's actually fairly intuitive when you understand what's going on. I'm just including this to try and give some pointers for those who have never seen it before. I've tried to divide this into chunks to prevent it being HUGE.


    THE BASICS
    Resources:
    - All your Metal / Energy production facilities produce at a certain rate every game tick (basically every second) depending on how advanced they are.
    - All your Factories and Engineers will drain resources at a certain rate over time depending on what's being built, and by how many units.

    Building:
    - Every structure and every unit has a cost in Metal and in Energy to make it (much like any other RTS).
    - The amount of time it takes to make anything depends on how many Engineers you have assisting it (see below).

    Engineers:
    - Engineers come from factories (so there can be land, sea and air engineers).
    - Advanced factories produce Advanced Engineers (which can build faster, and build advanced structures).
    - Engineers are used to build all structures.
    - You can use multiple Engineers to 'assist' any production. This includes making units in factories.
    - Each Engineer added to a project with be more resources consumed per tick, and will get the project done faster as a result.
    - Your commander is a basic engineer.

    Storage:
    - You have a finite amount of storage for both Metal and Energy.
    - Anything you earn beyond your storage is simply lost.
    - You can build "storage" buildings to increase how much Metal and Energy you can store

    The bolded is something that makes this style of game fairly unique and what warrants the 'rate based' economy over something like Starcraft or CoH where you pay for things up-front. You can effectively speed up creation of anything you want to make, you just need to throw more Engineers at it.

    More Engineers = More resources thrown at project = Less time spent making it.


    HOWEVER, by doing so, you're also increasing the strain on your economy, as the more stuff you make at once and the faster you do it, the faster you consume resources.

    You effectively have a 'buffer' in your storage. When your econ is net +ve, your buffer builds (up to its max), when it's net -ve, it drains (down to zero). If you completely empty your energy or metal stores, this slows down ALL production across the board in proportion to how much resource was being consumed.

    In this way if you're not careful, you can basically "crash" your economy by building too many things too fast when you don't have enough Metal and Energy production to support it, and not enough of a buffer.


    EXAMPLE:
    So let's say overall your econ bar says:

    +10 Metal
    - 11 Metal

    Your stored metal resources will start to drain. If it hits zero, your overall production will be slowed to about 90% of the speed at which it would ordinarily produce.

    So say now instead it's:

    +10 Metal
    - 20 Metal

    You'll hit zero much faster, and when you do your production speeds will be 50% of what they were before because you're using twice the resources of what you've got coming in. Should this happen, you'd be advised at this point to pause some production jobs until the strain becomes more manageable)


    WHY BOTHER WITH A RATE BASED ECONOMY SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    In theory the overall effect ought to be the same, since in a standard Pay-Up-Front RTS and a Rate-Based you're still paying a set OVERALL amount of cash to create a unit or structure. So why bother right?

    Well a couple of reasons

    --

    In actuality, things work out fairly different in this game. As we noted above, the build rate of any structure can be increased simply by throwing more engineers at it. This creates a pretty unique economy situation where nothing has a fixed "time to make", and as a result needs to work in a different manner. And naturally diminishing returns apply (adding an engineer to a project that has 2 others on it will have a significant impact on time taken. But if it's already got 10 engineers on it, that one more won't make too much difference).

    It changes up the meta-game significantly as a result. Your ability to 'boom' your economy isn't just tied to your income, it's also tied to your stored resources. Being able to boom your economy or snap build units / resources doesn't just have to be based around how much Metal / Energy production you have, but how much you've got in reserve. Building forwards offensive bases or rushing technologies can take on a different angle from other titles when you can effectively plan around building something big and then super-charge its construction.

    --

    That's just one possibility. The other reason is that in general PA and games of its ilk are built around large scale, and the economy ties into that. Resources never run out. Unlike games like Starcraft of Company of Heroes, there's no concept of "supply" (arbitrary limit on how many units you can have at any one time until you build infrastructure to increase it) or "upkeep" (percentage reduction in your resource production as you gain more units) like in other RTS's. Those are means that are designed to slow down production and prevent overly large army sizes. As of yet, there's no hard cap on unit production at all in PA, and if there comes one, it's likely to be so large that you'll have a hard time hitting it.

    Unlike a lot of other RTS's, games like PA (and its predecessors) focus a lot more on sprawling conflicts of attrition, frequently with large scale battles happening in several places at the same time. You're not building individual units, you have a constant stream of combat units rolling out of your factories and into battle. The way in which the rate based economy helps that is by allowing you to have units in constant production without having to wait for the money to already be there before purchasing. This keeps things running smoothly and churning out constantly instead of having to constantly micro-manage production as you gain enough to produce more. This also benefits for mega-projects (like say, engines on an asteroid), because you can start building them without needing the full amount to start. You just start it and make sure that your overall income stream is enough to support it, and if not then you shut down some production to manage. You don't need to completely hold back on buying everything until you're ready, you just reduce production as much as needed.


    ECONOMY STALL SOUNDS SCARY
    In real terms, it's not. Granted the optimal play is to always try and make sure you don't hit zero, but if you do you can simply pause construction and stop factories to make sure everything else is ticking over. They key thing to keep in mind is that you want to avoid situations where you're in protracted 'stall' for any significant period of time, it's generally less efficient.

    Imagine the following scenario. You have built

    - 10 factories
    - Enough resources to run 5 of them constantly

    If you've got 10 factories churning out units but only enough resources to match for 5, you'll be producing at half rate. Whilst over time the number of units you churn out will be the same, the resources that you spent making those additional factories early could have been better put to use elsewhere and simply having 5 factories going full-tilt, producing the same number of units.

    So now, take those same resources, and instead of building 10 factories, build 5. The rest of the resources that you might have spent on production that you can't sustain, you can now instead spend on extra metal extractors or energy plants. All of a sudden you've got even more resources coming in to support more factories.

    So whilst in theory the game is all about constant production, like with all RTS's it's a good idea to pay attention to build order to maximise the usage of what resources you've got. In that respect, I find PA a lot more flexible owing to its rate based nature. If you find you've made a mistake or something's come up where you need to re-direct resources, you can simply pause production, even if you've just started, and get back to it when you need to

    Hope that's useful.





    In other news, ZaphodX did a decent short video on what's been added with the move to Beta:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoAZEGAhns4





    Meanwhile The Realm talks with some other community mainstays from TA and SupCom, just taking the opportunity of the Beta to make some comparisons with the previous games:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJe7VRaEKDk

    subedii on
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Kashaar wrote: »

    4) Worked for me, but unfortunately I destroyed the entire planet while doing it, costing me my own commander, too.

    Heh...yeah, I ended up with a planet that was reset to pre-commander status (that is to say that not a single building, unit, not even a satellite survived the impact). The only reason my team "won" was because I had the foresight to move my commander to the furthest planet in the system. I'm thinking that the issue was my teammate dropped the moon on top of the enemy commanders instead of letting the blast wave do the work. I might have to test this out some more, though. :D

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Kashaar wrote: »

    4) Worked for me, but unfortunately I destroyed the entire planet while doing it, costing me my own commander, too.

    Heh...yeah, I ended up with a planet that was reset to pre-commander status (that is to say that not a single building, unit, not even a satellite survived the impact). The only reason my team "won" was because I had the foresight to move my commander to the furthest planet in the system. I'm thinking that the issue was my teammate dropped the moon on top of the enemy commanders instead of letting the blast wave do the work. I might have to test this out some more, though. :D

    I think this is partly because it's just the first iteration of the annihilation system... we'll probably see that improved a lot in future updates :)

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  • Al BaronAl Baron Registered User regular
    Just got an e-mail saying that they're letting anyone who backed this into the beta now.

    Keys will go out in waves, though.

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  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    Neat! I gotta play this again. I hear the AI is massively improved... but still, anyone want to try multiplayer?

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  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Just recently bought this and a copy for a friend, and we played a few matches. It's fucking fun, it reminds me a lot of SupCom and it has a lot of neat little quality of life things like the picture in picture feature and being able to click and drag to make a "zone" for patrols and the like.

    They also recently added the ability to use the giant thrusters to change the orbit of a planet in addition to smashing them together, which is useful because it means you can move one in range of an enemy world and send interplanetary nukes at them to soften them up before attempting to establish a beachhead on their planet. You can also use it to move a planet farther away to avoid said nuking, or just make it take longer for the enemy to send troops your way.

    The game is just so fucking cool you guys, let us play this

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  • VicVic Registered User regular
    I was shocked to see how dead this thread is. The quick look ex on Giantbomb made me finally cave and buy this. I have not had time to play a lot of it yet, but I like what I have seen so far! I still lack many of the skills and tools needed to actually manage the dozens of engineers and factories and hundreds of units, but at least I am good enough to beat the computer into the ground.

    I feel like I'm going to need to hook up with some human players to get the full experience, though. Anyone interested or know of any good steam groups?

  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    Hah, I suck against the computer. Wanna play sometime? I've only launched this again today after a very long time, seems like a lot has improved since Alpha.

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  • VicVic Registered User regular
    Kashaar wrote: »
    Hah, I suck against the computer. Wanna play sometime? I've only launched this again today after a very long time, seems like a lot has improved since Alpha.

    Sure, let's give it a shot! I'm Swedish, so time zones may screw us over, but pm me your steam name and we can try to work something out.

  • VicVic Registered User regular
    For anyone who may be wandering into the thread, this game is currently 40% off! Other selling points:

    You can put engines on planets.
    You can then use these engines to change the orbit on your planet to get you within range to fire interplanetary nukes against your opponents outpost moon.
    You can then take out the last remnants of his orbital defences and build a teleported on the surface.
    You can then put engines on that moon too and fly the moon into the opponents home planet.

    This game literally has two kinds of Exterminatus. I mean come on!

  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    There is something uniquely satisfying about slamming a moon into a planet, especially when the enemy commander is at the point of impact. I wish the commanders were a bit more durable though in general combat.

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    y'know, I can second that. I dunno if i missed the disintegrator gun option or not, but within 3minutes of the game I can get a tank force up and running that can kill a commander. If there was an old TA disintegrator gun, it might be enough to dissuade that assault force...

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    I remember in TA doing a cargo plane rush to go pick up the enemy commander and then orbit around an enemy base due to the fact that any unit being carried would be destroyed if the cargo plane got shot down, and the cargo plane could pick up units no matter who they belonged to.

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    yea, that was how we managed to capture a core constructor bot in that long, long ass campaign that I talked about a few pages back. managed to find a lone bot building a ton of dragons teeth so we sent a battalion's worth of troops on a suicide mission to get everyone looking at the fight, and my buddy just scooped him up during the chaos. Took them an hour to realize that their dragon line wasn't completed, and they assumed it died during one of the big fights.

    1 constructor and you had access to the entire faction's build list. It was more valuable than a commander for that hour trying to build enough core weaponry and additional bots so that we wouldn't have to worry about losing it.

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  • KupotheAvengerKupotheAvenger Destroyer of Cake and other deserts.Registered User regular
    So caved and bought this. I'm getting this weird glitch in Galactic War where if I enter an engagement on a planet I get randomly kicked back to system and have to click to enter the planet again. I get into the fight after 3 or 4 clicks but it's kind of odd. I really wish I had access to my air forces in early galactic war, but it's a nice progression to earn them.

    Otherwise, this game is just sex.

    fc: 1821-9801-1163
    Battlenet: Judgement#1243
    psn: KupoZero

  • RetabaRetaba A Cultist Registered User regular
    Yeah, I had the same problem! It is weird how you can fail to start a game in single player.

  • TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    oh good more things have been added? I'll have to take it for a spin again, I enjoyed the beta stuff but I've put it on the shelf til it gets a bit more fleshed out

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  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    So this game is on sale, how's it turning out so far?

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
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  • DiplominatorDiplominator Hardcore Porg Registered User regular
    I just started playing it again and I love it. The Galactic War single-player thing looks like it's gonna be pretty cool, and a couple of my friends got it so we've had some entertaining debacles against the bots.

    Basically, if you're playing against a hard AI, don't let it get off the planet if there's a lot of celestial bodies. It can multitask better than you and will build up on every available world. Then start pelting you with an unending stream of nukes.

  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    So, regarding planets and the launching thereof, I would like to try and commandersnipe this place because good lord is it a pain to try and establish a beachhead on an enemy planet, but it's not letting me launch my planet at the planet with the enemy commanders, just a different dumb world.
    :edit: and a different attempt at planet launching wasn't letting me pick ANY planet to annihilate, is there some sort of targeting requirement that isn't clearly explained?

    NEO|Phyte on
    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    Welp, I'm not an RTS buff, but I certainly found a strategy that was victoryful in the singleplayer thing. Victoryful and flagrantly unsporting.

    Subcommanders.
    Six of them.

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
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