Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
SE you have no assurance that your thread on Megaman will not turn into a 30 page arguement between guys about leeching. In G&T, you have that assurance.
So what you are saying is that it is up to the general populace, not the mods, to dictate where they want the discussion to go? With no guidelines whatsoever (if they post it in SE, I mean)?
Well, SE isn't SD if that's what you're getting at.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Don't think that Shimsham is trying to stir up trouble. I, of course, am not in the man's brain, but as powerllama so gracefully put it, "It's Shimsham. Fucking shimsham."
I think he's actually trying to have an intelligent discussion here.
It actually makes a lot of sense though. His suggestion.
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denihilistAncient and MightyRegistered User, Moderatormod
How can anything be off topic in an off topic chat forum?
The off-topic forums are made to discuss things that we don't already have forums for.
That's wrong.
By this logic, however, there is no reason for on-topic forums, as they can be discussed freely and to completeness in SE++.
When the forums were set up there two spots: a discussion board and an art board. When we moved to php we found ourselves with two boards again, The Artist's Corner and M2. Eventually, M2 got really nuts and we formed a place called the Pit of Hate. It was designed to be a flame forum. It got shut down, everyone was pissed and within a month or two, the entire board was closed.
When we reopened one of the things we heard form a lot of users was that M2 was too cliqu-ish and too big to keep things on topic. So we created G&T to go along with the Artist's Corner and M2 was renamed Social Entropy. Some people wanted more moderated discussion, less off-topic derails. Others thought the derails were funnier than the original threads. So the on-topic discussion forum was started. That's what we now call D&D. Before that it was called Politics and Philosphy because it was meant to be a debate board. I liked it better that way, but people were upset with SE and we made concessions.
The point is, everything is allowed in SE simply because everything is allowed in SE. Nothing stays on topic and, for better or worse, nothing goes as planned.
SE should be the center of the diagram because SE started it all. If you don't like that, there are plenty of boards out there with a more organzied, on-topic style. Enjoy your stay at them.
At this point, we have a chat forum, inside which are game-on topics. IMHO, I wonder if "Game on" should be its own forum, where all the PA forumers can go to intermingle and get their game on with other PA forumers, in a neutral environment with no stigmas of "Oh, he's a G&Ter" or "He's from D&D" or any of that tripe.
We actually had a Game On forum, and it died because no one went to it. I don't think it would work any better now. Bear in mind, there are only actually three game on threads in SE at the moment, Fantasy Football, 360 thread and the Final Fantasy XI thread. Fantasy Football doesn't strike me as being a problem.
I can see that the 360 and Final Fantasy Game On threads might be an issue, but someone else would need to weigh in who's more familiar with them.
The reason they give for having Game On topics is because SE++ers want to play 360 games with other SE++ers, rather than having to deal with GnT people.
The reason there was a GnT Chat thread was for GnTers to talk to other GnTers about offtopic things without dealing with SE++ people.
What's the difference here? I'm dying for someone to explain that.
I'm one of the people that would like to see this question answered.
It seems if you guys are trying to unify the whole community, that there's no reason not to have SE'ers use the G&T [Game On] threads.
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denihilistAncient and MightyRegistered User, Moderatormod
SE you have no assurance that your thread on Megaman will not turn into a 30 page arguement between guys about leeching. In G&T, you have that assurance.
So what you are saying is that it is up to the general populace, not the mods, to dictate where they want the discussion to go? With no guidelines whatsoever (if they post it in SE, I mean)?
Exactly...within reason.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
SE you have no assurance that your thread on Megaman will not turn into a 30 page arguement between guys about leeching. In G&T, you have that assurance.
So what you are saying is that it is up to the general populace, not the mods, to dictate where they want the discussion to go? With no guidelines whatsoever (if they post it in SE, I mean)?
Well, SE isn't SD if that's what you're getting at.
Forgive me for not getting the reference.
What I'm trying to get at is as I said above -- that SE++ is the all-encompassing home of the forum, and all discussion is allowed in there (within reason of intellegence). The sub-forums, therefore, only exist when the poster wants assurance of on-topic discussion, but is other than that unbidden from posting in them. This leads, when taken to its logical conclusion, that there is no reason for the non-SE++ sub-forums, assuming you can keep the SE++ threads on-topic, which is completely up to the will of the posters.
So what you are saying is that it is up to the general populace, not the mods, to dictate where they want the discussion to go? With no guidelines whatsoever (if they post it in SE, I mean)?
Yes, within reason. Obviously some moderation still takes place, but it's more shepharding.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
When the forums were set up there two spots: a discussion board and an art board. When we moved to php we found ourselves with two boards again, The Artist's Corner and M2. Eventually, M2 got really nuts and we formed a place called the Pit of Hate. It was designed to be a flame forum. It got shut down, everyone was pissed and within a month or two, the entire board was closed.
When we reopened one of the things we heard form a lot of users was that M2 was too cliqu-ish and too big to keep things on topic. So we created G&T to go along with the Artist's Corner and M2 was renamed Social Entropy. Some people wanted more moderated discussion, less off-topic derails. Others thought the derails were funnier than the original threads. So the on-topic discussion forum was started. That's what we now call D&D. Before that it was called Politics and Philosphy because it was meant to be a debate board. I liked it better that way, but people were upset with SE and we made concessions.
The point is, everything is allowed in SE simply because everything is allowed in SE. Nothing stays on topic and, for better or worse, nothing goes as planned.
SE should be the center of the diagram because SE started it all. If you don't like that, there are plenty of boards out there with a more organzied, on-topic style. Enjoy your stay at them.
What I'm trying to get at is as I said above -- that SE++ is the all-encompassing home of the forum, and all discussion is allowed in there (within reason of intellegence). The sub-forums, therefore, only exist when the poster wants assurance of on-topic discussion, but is other than that unbidden from posting in them. This leads, when taken to its logical conclusion, that there is no reason for the non-SE++ sub-forums, assuming you can keep the SE++ threads on-topic, which is completely up to the will of the posters.
Well, that would involve a massive amount of topics, all in one forum. It would be stupid. And those topics would never stay on-topic. Just wouldn't happen. It's the nature of the beast.
This leads, when taken to its logical conclusion, that there is no reason for the non-SE++ sub-forums, assuming you can keep the SE++ threads on-topic, which is completely up to the will of the posters.
I don't see that as a logical conclusion, since the chances of every single person in SE all deciding that they want to post completely on topic without any encouragement from the moderators is remote. Besides, there isn't enough room in SE for threads on the variety of gaming titbits in G&T.
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited September 2006
Alright. This, combined with Denihilist's explination of the origins of the forums, makes sense.
However, in doing so, it is completely and 100% counter-productive to the notion of creating a unified penny arcade forum community.
Why? It was stated explicitly: The sub-forums were created when people were looking for different environments than SE++ offered. But what's ignored is that once these new environments were created, they started growing organically on their own, creating their own life blood. One of them, at least, has eclipsed its parent forum. And as these communities have grown, they have drifted apart, becoming more specialized and more set in their ways.
I am not clairvoyant. I cannot tell you if taking away elements from one community and letting another community keep theirs will unify the forums. So far, I've personally enjoyed spreading my wings a bit and going to other places -- but I'm not blind, you guys did a great job in pacifying me by giving us D&M. My gut, however, says that as long as SE++ remains the all-encompassing forum, the other sub-forums will continue to harbor an inferiority complex, and feel like their worth in the community is dimished. Thus, seperation occurs, as does strife.
Am I saying to take away SE++'s toys, and their ability to be the all encompassing forum? No. Hurting one community was bad enough. That said, concessions should be made to bring better integration and definition to the purposes of the various forums -- and I believe containing the Game On threads in the Gaming sub-forum would go a long way towards that. The current reason for the existance of the SE++ Game-ons, to be frank, sucks. I am amazed that they are allowed to get away with "We are making this thread because people on the same forum as us suck and we don't want to play with them." That strikes many of us as being quite elitist, and isolationist. If they could come up with a better reason to not use the subforums properly, then maybe I could see it. But considering what the G&T'ers were told, I doubt the SE++ people can come up with something better.
That's all I'm saying, that's where my gripes in this all are. I don't mind what was done with G&T, I just don't think it was applied equally to all parties involved.
Basically (bear in mind, this has been explained over sixty times already) SE is a place to go if you want free ranging discussion over a variety of topics, with no impetus to stay on a particular topic.
You can talk about the new spider-man game, and then switch to how you liked the film, or the cartoon, or maybe tell a hilarious story about how a man choked to death on his own semen when you went to see it at the movies. You can start talking about the eggs you had.
G&T is where you go if you want to talk about the Spider-Man game.
Do you see?
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
And one last thing before I stop posting in this thread:
Debate and Discourse kept their chat thread. Is that because Debate and Discourse is a more tolerated group of people, or because an off topic discussion thread is crucial to their community?
IIRC, someone mentioned how D&D's chat thread was about general discussion and debating; though i've not seen much evidence of that.
To at least try and spark some reasonable discussion and answer my only qualm in this discussion, could any mod please respond to this? Why were the other on-topic forums chat threads allowed to remain, if they just act in much the same function as the G&T chat thread did?
I see the SE 360++ thread as a good thing. I'm not one to go to GnT, as it's not really my thing, but when I want to set up a game with my friends it's nice to have a place to post a time/game.
Plus I don't have the time/want to be a full-time gamer or keep up with every little tidbit of information about consoles/games. This seems to be the mentality of other SE++ers as well, and its nice to chat with/get tips from like minded people.
To at least try and spark some reasonable discussion and answer my only qualm in this discussion, could any mod please respond to this? Why were the other on-topic forums chat threads allowed to remain, if they just act in much the same function as the G&T chat thread did?
D&D's chat thread works to keep thread meta-discussion out of the on-topic threads. Linksville has had the same chat thread since January of 2005. I think the Writer's Block is still on their first chat thread, too.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
This leads, when taken to its logical conclusion, that there is no reason for the non-SE++ sub-forums, assuming you can keep the SE++ threads on-topic, which is completely up to the will of the posters.
I don't see that as a logical conclusion, since the chances of every single person in SE all deciding that they want to post completely on topic without any encouragement from the moderators is remote. Besides, there isn't enough room in SE for threads on the variety of gaming titbits in G&T.
Ignoring the technical defense, as that is purely a function of hardware and not of the PA forums society...
If there were no G&T or the other subforums, then the demographics and mentalities of SE++ would be drastically different than it is now. One cannot predict what exactly would come of this.. We only have the evidence of the past that shows people would try to post on-topic, and get fed-up with the thread derailing and ask for other places to play.. "taking their ball and going home" is another way to think of it.
This one is a specific question: If the PA forums were all contained in one massive lump, and half the forum wanted on-topic discussion, and the other half wanted off-topic discussion and the ability to derail any thread they desired, which group of people would the mods support?
I see the SE 360++ thread as a good thing. I'm not one to go to GnT, as it's not really my thing, but when I want to set up a game with my friends it's nice to have a place to post a time/game.
Plus I don't have the time/want to be a full-time gamer or keep up with every little tidbit of information about consoles/games. This seems to be the mentality of other SE++ers as well, and its nice to chat with/get tips from like minded people.
So it's treated like a casual 360 users' thread to organise stuff without having the hectic traffic the 360 megathread had?
That sounds pretty reasonable.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
SE you have no assurance that your thread on Megaman will not turn into a 30 page arguement between guys about leeching. In G&T, you have that assurance.
So what you are saying is that it is up to the general populace, not the mods, to dictate where they want the discussion to go? With no guidelines whatsoever (if they post it in SE, I mean)?
Well, SE isn't SD if that's what you're getting at.
Forgive me for not getting the reference.
SD was SE only without any rules and any forumer was the mod therein.
Munkus Beaver on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Posts
They're the XOR gate of the internet world.
I blame Whippy
Well, SE isn't SD if that's what you're getting at.
When the forums were set up there two spots: a discussion board and an art board. When we moved to php we found ourselves with two boards again, The Artist's Corner and M2. Eventually, M2 got really nuts and we formed a place called the Pit of Hate. It was designed to be a flame forum. It got shut down, everyone was pissed and within a month or two, the entire board was closed.
When we reopened one of the things we heard form a lot of users was that M2 was too cliqu-ish and too big to keep things on topic. So we created G&T to go along with the Artist's Corner and M2 was renamed Social Entropy. Some people wanted more moderated discussion, less off-topic derails. Others thought the derails were funnier than the original threads. So the on-topic discussion forum was started. That's what we now call D&D. Before that it was called Politics and Philosphy because it was meant to be a debate board. I liked it better that way, but people were upset with SE and we made concessions.
The point is, everything is allowed in SE simply because everything is allowed in SE. Nothing stays on topic and, for better or worse, nothing goes as planned.
SE should be the center of the diagram because SE started it all. If you don't like that, there are plenty of boards out there with a more organzied, on-topic style. Enjoy your stay at them.
We actually had a Game On forum, and it died because no one went to it. I don't think it would work any better now. Bear in mind, there are only actually three game on threads in SE at the moment, Fantasy Football, 360 thread and the Final Fantasy XI thread. Fantasy Football doesn't strike me as being a problem.
I can see that the 360 and Final Fantasy Game On threads might be an issue, but someone else would need to weigh in who's more familiar with them.
If all you're going to do is throw stupid, paranoid comments from the sideline, you can fuck off. This goes for everyone. Discuss, or get out.
I'm one of the people that would like to see this question answered.
It seems if you guys are trying to unify the whole community, that there's no reason not to have SE'ers use the G&T [Game On] threads.
Forgive me for not getting the reference.
What I'm trying to get at is as I said above -- that SE++ is the all-encompassing home of the forum, and all discussion is allowed in there (within reason of intellegence). The sub-forums, therefore, only exist when the poster wants assurance of on-topic discussion, but is other than that unbidden from posting in them. This leads, when taken to its logical conclusion, that there is no reason for the non-SE++ sub-forums, assuming you can keep the SE++ threads on-topic, which is completely up to the will of the posters.
Yes, within reason. Obviously some moderation still takes place, but it's more shepharding.
Are you saying it's not true? If the reason for this is not an attempt to force the G&T community into SE++, then what is it?
I blame Whippy
I don't see that as a logical conclusion, since the chances of every single person in SE all deciding that they want to post completely on topic without any encouragement from the moderators is remote. Besides, there isn't enough room in SE for threads on the variety of gaming titbits in G&T.
No one is being forced into anything.
To be fair and defend CT's side, he did state right from the very start that they weren't being forced to move, they were welcome to leave the forum.
Of course not. You can't actually force anyone to do anything.
You can merely take attempt to take away their means of forging a community outside of SE++.
I blame Whippy
Not that this is in any way important.
However, in doing so, it is completely and 100% counter-productive to the notion of creating a unified penny arcade forum community.
Why? It was stated explicitly: The sub-forums were created when people were looking for different environments than SE++ offered. But what's ignored is that once these new environments were created, they started growing organically on their own, creating their own life blood. One of them, at least, has eclipsed its parent forum. And as these communities have grown, they have drifted apart, becoming more specialized and more set in their ways.
I am not clairvoyant. I cannot tell you if taking away elements from one community and letting another community keep theirs will unify the forums. So far, I've personally enjoyed spreading my wings a bit and going to other places -- but I'm not blind, you guys did a great job in pacifying me by giving us D&M. My gut, however, says that as long as SE++ remains the all-encompassing forum, the other sub-forums will continue to harbor an inferiority complex, and feel like their worth in the community is dimished. Thus, seperation occurs, as does strife.
Am I saying to take away SE++'s toys, and their ability to be the all encompassing forum? No. Hurting one community was bad enough. That said, concessions should be made to bring better integration and definition to the purposes of the various forums -- and I believe containing the Game On threads in the Gaming sub-forum would go a long way towards that. The current reason for the existance of the SE++ Game-ons, to be frank, sucks. I am amazed that they are allowed to get away with "We are making this thread because people on the same forum as us suck and we don't want to play with them." That strikes many of us as being quite elitist, and isolationist. If they could come up with a better reason to not use the subforums properly, then maybe I could see it. But considering what the G&T'ers were told, I doubt the SE++ people can come up with something better.
That's all I'm saying, that's where my gripes in this all are. I don't mind what was done with G&T, I just don't think it was applied equally to all parties involved.
You can talk about the new spider-man game, and then switch to how you liked the film, or the cartoon, or maybe tell a hilarious story about how a man choked to death on his own semen when you went to see it at the movies. You can start talking about the eggs you had.
G&T is where you go if you want to talk about the Spider-Man game.
Do you see?
To at least try and spark some reasonable discussion and answer my only qualm in this discussion, could any mod please respond to this? Why were the other on-topic forums chat threads allowed to remain, if they just act in much the same function as the G&T chat thread did?
Plus I don't have the time/want to be a full-time gamer or keep up with every little tidbit of information about consoles/games. This seems to be the mentality of other SE++ers as well, and its nice to chat with/get tips from like minded people.
Uh, that's next week.
And that sentiment is what has created this problem in the first place.
No attempt to understand why the G&T community feels the way it does, or why it ought to exist. Just "you guys are wrong to feel that way."
Well, I'm done here. Feel free to keep talking at me.
I blame Whippy
Ignoring the technical defense, as that is purely a function of hardware and not of the PA forums society...
If there were no G&T or the other subforums, then the demographics and mentalities of SE++ would be drastically different than it is now. One cannot predict what exactly would come of this.. We only have the evidence of the past that shows people would try to post on-topic, and get fed-up with the thread derailing and ask for other places to play.. "taking their ball and going home" is another way to think of it.
This one is a specific question: If the PA forums were all contained in one massive lump, and half the forum wanted on-topic discussion, and the other half wanted off-topic discussion and the ability to derail any thread they desired, which group of people would the mods support?
You were asked to be done here quite a while ago. Feel free to just stay away from now on.
That sounds pretty reasonable.
SD was SE only without any rules and any forumer was the mod therein.