Sure to some it may seem annoying or whatever to have only 8 ability slots, but have 40 abilities. However, how is that any different from other games where you can have all 40 on screen at once, but are only allowed to use 8 specific skills (in a specific pattern) or risk wiping the entire raid?
A game with limited slots and a game with hotbars all over are functionally the same at the end game. In either case you will end up using the community approved spec or else get kicked out of the raid.
Hyperbole.
Plenty of non asshole guilds exist.
If you don't want to play with assholes don't hang around with assholes.
So you may not get kicked out, but the point still stands. At the end of the day you will be using a build/pattern of abilities that most everyone else is using. Sure you may have one or two different abilities or what-have-you, but it is unlikely you would stray far from the path.
edit- Granted there may be more than one approved build per class.
Well They will have certain sets of of abilities better for different styles of play so obviously you will be choosing from groups that make the most sense. But in any game where dodging and movement skills are such a big part the choices become much more personalized.
Sure people with math out what combination does the most damage in a perfect situation. But in a game with movement and dodging and twitch reflexes the perfect situation will rarely happen. People will blindly follow it, sure. But plenty of other people will make their own tweaks. EVERYONE will make mistakes in their play. Even the best players aren't perfect. The further down that list you go the more mistakes people make. Ideally you want to tweak the character around your personal strengths and weaknesses. You want find a build that allows you to play your personal best, not someone else.
Obviously if your goal is to deal damage your bar will not be filled with healing abilities, therefore the pool of abilities and AMPs you choose from will be smaller and there will be plenty of overlap with others.
But at the end of the day as long as your build isn't preventing you from doing content and allows you to play your way the best, there are no issues that exist except for from assholes and idiots.
I disagree that if I can find a use for 20 abilties that 10 of them must be weak. Many abilites used in other MMOs all had their putpose, from threat generation to debuffing the enemy to defensive increases to ally buffing all on single targets to a completely different set of skill brought into play when faced with multiple enemies and able to use all of them on the fly in a single fight if situations (such as someone pulling more mobs or a boss having adds) suddenly arises.
I understand that other people like the limited action bar style of play. I do not, but I do not call people goosey for enjoying the different gamestyle, I only say that I personally can not see the benefit and am disapointed that the choice of Devs was one that will makes a game one that I will pass on.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I disagree that if I can find a use for 20 abilties that 10 of them must be weak. Many abilites used in other MMOs all had their putpose, from threat generation to debuffing the enemy to defensive increases to ally buffing all on single targets to a completely different set of skill brought into play when faced with multiple enemies and able to use all of them on the fly in a single fight if situations (such as someone pulling more mobs or a boss having adds) suddenly arises.
I understand that other people like the limited action bar style of play. I do not, but I do not call people goosey for enjoying the different gamestyle, I only say that I personally can not see the benefit and am disapointed that the choice of Devs was one that will makes a game one that I will pass on.
Did anyone call you goosey for not enjoying a different game style?
I disagree that if I can find a use for 20 abilties that 10 of them must be weak. Many abilites used in other MMOs all had their putpose, from threat generation to debuffing the enemy to defensive increases to ally buffing all on single targets to a completely different set of skill brought into play when faced with multiple enemies and able to use all of them on the fly in a single fight if situations (such as someone pulling more mobs or a boss having adds) suddenly arises.
do you have an example 20 abilities that you are using that we could see/discuss?
My actual point was that in a game with limited ability slots vs. a game with tons of hotbars, when you reach the endgame and start raiding you are going to bring a certain set of skills that work for each occasion.
So while you can have 40 abilities on screen at once, given the nature of the raid/boss or your own build you will be using only a limited number of abilities anyway. Either because they are the most effective, the fight calls for it, or they just work for you. Whether endgame or leveling I'd imagine it'd be very unlikely that you'd ever really use more than, eh, 10 abilities during any given fight (and honestly I find 10 to be a bit of a liberal estimate IMHO).
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If you're going to pass on Wildstar because you don't get 20+ buttons to press without changing skillsets that's pretty crazy. Why not just play the game and see if the gameplay is fun? Like, if you can't have fun playing a game that has fewer than 20 abilities at a time, then you have missed out on like 99% of the best video games ever released.
I don't personally care. I know if a game is designed with LAS, then it's being designed around making the abilities powerful enough that I will have a strong kit of abilities that I can mix and match to fit my style. Or if I play a game without it I know my class is designed to use all these abilities situationally.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
My actual point was that in a game with limited ability slots vs. a game with tons of hotbars, when you reach the endgame and start raiding you are going to bring a certain set of skills that work for each occasion.
So while you can have 40 abilities on screen at once, given the nature of the raid/boss or your own build you will be using only a limited number of abilities anyway. Either because they are the most effective, the fight calls for it, or they just work for you. Whether endgame or leveling I'd imagine it'd be very unlikely that you'd ever really use more than, eh, 10 abilities during any given fight (and honestly I find 10 to be a bit of a liberal estimate IMHO).
Ah yes. That makes sense.
My points up there stand for anyone that thinks "Everyone will be using the same builds because they will be better 100% of the time" ;P
to be fair, i think it's hard for some people to imagine a game where LAS works really well if they haven't experienced something similar. seems like the natural reaction to say "you made all these abilities but i can only have access to X at a time? wtf?"
Gah, don't start the limited action set conversation with @Decomposey again. This is the same guy who thinks the combat in Wildstar isn't any more active than the combat in World of Warcraft. He's not here to add constructively to the discussion. He's here to complain that Wildstar isn't WoW.
Also, lol at anyone claiming Wildstar "stole" LAS from The Secret World or any other game. Many, many games have used this type of system before. It's not exactly trade secrets at this point.
When I played my shaman in WoW, I used quite a few abilities, but ultimately they all did the same thing: deal damage. I'd use the ideal damage-dealing rotation and it was mostly an exercise in touch-typing, not decision-making. Limited action slots eliminate the need for rotations, all of your abilities can have some form of utility or cost/benefit attached to them, so using them is an actual decision on your part. Or maybe you do like rotations and the utility of all your abilities is "deal more damage". The key is to support lots of different playstyles.
Gah, don't start the limited action set conversation with @Decomposey again. This is the same guy who thinks the combat in Wildstar isn't any more active than the combat in World of Warcraft. He's not here to add constructively to the discussion. He's here to complain that Wildstar isn't WoW.
Also, lol at anyone claiming Wildstar "stole" LAS from The Secret World or any other game. Many, many games have used this type of system before. It's not exactly trade secrets at this point.
Esper looks pretty cool.
Is it sad that I remember that specific discussion? Wasn't it months ago?
But yeah really digging the Esper info so far but I really want to see the Spellslinger and see how the two compare aesthetically.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited November 2013
I'm pretty certain Wildstar's combat is a hell of a lot more actiony and choice rewarding then WoW's combat.
I disagree that if I can find a use for 20 abilties that 10 of them must be weak. Many abilites used in other MMOs all had their putpose, from threat generation to debuffing the enemy to defensive increases to ally buffing all on single targets to a completely different set of skill brought into play when faced with multiple enemies and able to use all of them on the fly in a single fight if situations (such as someone pulling more mobs or a boss having adds) suddenly arises.
do you have an example 20 abilities that you are using that we could see/discuss?
Off the top of my head (haven't played WoW since the Pandas were announced so I can't remember all of the ability names..)
Shout, Heroic Throw (for pull-to-me) or Charge(rush-at-them), Shield Slam, Devistate x 3, Thunderclap to open. Heroic Strike for extra damage while hitting after-mitigating an attack ability whose name I can't remember as constant damage as well as shield block for mitigation. Switch Heroic Strike for Cleave in multi target situation. Now that we have opened and established threat as well as build up enough Rage for the moment, we can use Shockwave for additional threat as well as a stun to give the healers a moment to catch up, followed by a different should to debuff the boss attack, then reapplication of thunderclap and sunder. Counting Throw and Charge as a single ability instead fo two as its dependant on the eniemies fought, as well as Heroic Strike vs cleave, that's 10 abilities right there used in every single fight. Oh wait, no, 11 for taunt (we won't seperate single target and AOE taunts for the purpose of this count, even though they were different abilities with different cooldowns). 13 if you throw in rotating defensive cooldowns. 15 if there is a spell to interupt/stun. 16 for Last Stand, or if you are really compassionate the shout that gives the health bonus to your group (again different abilities, but we won't count them both as important since they shared a cooldown). Heroic Leap and Intercept for increased battlefield manuverability, and then WotF and Bezerker Rage for fear breaks. And of course Spell Reflect for turning the massive fire pillars back on their casters... how many abilities am I up to now? I'm sure I'm missing a self heal in there somewhere but I can't recall where.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Gah, don't start the limited action set conversation with @Decomposey again. This is the same guy who thinks the combat in Wildstar isn't any more active than the combat in World of Warcraft. He's not here to add constructively to the discussion. He's here to complain that Wildstar isn't WoW.
Also, lol at anyone claiming Wildstar "stole" LAS from The Secret World or any other game. Many, many games have used this type of system before. It's not exactly trade secrets at this point.
Esper looks pretty cool.
Is it sad that I remember that specific discussion? Wasn't it months ago?
But yeah really digging the Esper info so far but I really want to see the Spellslinger and see how the two compare aesthetically.
Oh god dammit.
This is the same guy?
I guess that puts the kibash on continuing this conversation.
Fine, mock me for wanting to discuss the part of an otherwise interesting game that I have problems with. I'm sorry a dissenting opinion means derision. I apologise for voicing my complaints.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Fine, mock me for wanting to discuss the part of an otherwise interesting game that I have problems with. I'm sorry a dissenting opinion means derision. I apologise for voicing my complaints.
Hey now, I was teasing you a little but there's really no malice in it.
Fine, mock me for wanting to discuss the part of an otherwise interesting game that I have problems with. I'm sorry a dissenting opinion means derision. I apologise for voicing my complaints.
a#)1 A little humor never hurt anyone. Just relax man.
II) You literally have said that you do not see the gameplay differences between Zelda games and WoW. I cannot possibly communicate with that. There are fundamental differences in how you see things that the VAST majority of game playing people just cannot even fathom.
It's nothing against you but I hope if nothing else you can at least see that this difference EXISTS even if you don't understand it and that you can understand the root cause for differing thoughts and not take it so personally.
unfortunately, i haven't had any WoW experience since vanilla and even then my highest level warrior was level 20 or so. but i'll do my best to address what you've written.
i'll leave the 10 above as you wrote them, even though i'm sure someone could make an argument to consolidate or eliminate some of them. after the 10 above you mention the nebulous "rotating defensive cooldowns" which i'm not sure how i can address. just from the abilities listed above you have thunderclap and shield block that already fall into the "mitigate damage" category. without knowing what specifically you're referring to here (and why it can't be incorporated into other abilities) i can't really say much more.
the spell interrupt/stun that you mention could be accomplished by shockwave if it was designed that way, right? it's already a stun, according to what you wrote above, so why would you feel limited without 2 more abilities that do the same thing?
just from memory, isn't Last Stand a very powerful ability on a really long cooldown? surely you can't be using it EVERY fight, right? it's a panic button ability that people use when shit hits the fan (from what i recall).
heroic leap and intercept seem to be very similar abilities with a minor difference at the end (stun versus AoE damage). plus, we've already got charge listed up above. personally, i don't really see how 2 slight variations on charge are adding a whole lot to the game.
WotF and Berzerker rage to break fear. i find it hard to believe that you need to break fear every single fight, but i'll consider these both general CC breaks instead. is there any reason why they couldn't be combined into one ability? for that matter, couldn't they be incorporated in one of the other abilities above? perhaps one of the 2 (different?) shouts? i realize that's not the way it was designed, but this is the type of thing other people (like Joshmvii) are talking about. there's no need to have 3 abilities do 10% of a job each. have 1 ability that does 30% of the job.
spell reflect. again, i don't see how you would use this in every fight, especially on mobs that don't cast spells. the idea is unique, though for a tank this is going to be more useful as a mitigation ability than as a damage ability. if we were to consolidate any of the mitigation abilities to be more powerful, i don't see why this couldn't be on one of them (like shield block, for instance).
self heals are certainly quite useful, but every fight? or are we moving the goalposts from the original question?
Keep in mind that Blizard incorporated mechanics into raid boss fights that either required the use of long-cooldown abilities or at least assumed they would be triggered at key points.
I don't fault that, it's a part of that game.
But Is the game better for boss fights expecting heroism to be popped during the fight to beat an enrage timer?
Only if heroism exists in the first place.
Is the game worse for not having that ability, like, at all?
Not really. Not when boss fights are then going to account for its use, making it no longer an advantage but just a button that the shaman has to hit at a specific point or else the raid wipes.
I've come to a point where I prefer more of the action taking place on the screen requiring timing, positioning, and movement rather than a focus on skill rotations.
"Stand here and execute your 1,2,3,1,4,1,2,3 perfectly for max deeps" is booooooring.
Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
I mean, if you have good keybinds or a Naga you can pretty much do away with hotbars. When I was pretty hardcore into WoW I had a setup like that. My non-combat bars would vanish in combat and I had addons that would inform me which abilities were off cooldown in a non-obtrusive way.
Basically all I saw in combat was my HP, class resource, my enemies' HP and their castbar (not my castbar since I don't play casters) and occasionally something saying 'YO! <cooldown> is ready!'
I bought a g600 around the time GW2 came out solely so I could have all my skill interactions on my mouse hand.
It works out really well with LAS systems because I can look at the bar and just hit the key that I know. it also means I can drink a beer with my movement hand ont he keyboard whenever I feel like it.
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I can see how that would be advantageous in games with skill bloat though, because then you'd have extra keys around your movement keys to bind to stuff.
In TOR I have q,e,r,f bound to abilities on my characters, and I eliminate the strafe keys (no loss there, this aint a shooter) and rebind chat reply to backspace (a location that is, if not as common as 'r' is at least familiar to me from previous games and so causes me no issues).
BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
Yeah I adopted esdf back in WoW and I'm just so used to it now that anything else feels utterly bizarre
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
Naga ftw. All my abilities are at my thumb, bitches. With ctrl and alt modifiers I can theoretically have 36 buttons. I don't, but I could! Now more MMOs just need to have a mouselook toggle.
I didn't have to switch over to some weirdo movement keys for weirdos.
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Well They will have certain sets of of abilities better for different styles of play so obviously you will be choosing from groups that make the most sense. But in any game where dodging and movement skills are such a big part the choices become much more personalized.
Sure people with math out what combination does the most damage in a perfect situation. But in a game with movement and dodging and twitch reflexes the perfect situation will rarely happen. People will blindly follow it, sure. But plenty of other people will make their own tweaks. EVERYONE will make mistakes in their play. Even the best players aren't perfect. The further down that list you go the more mistakes people make. Ideally you want to tweak the character around your personal strengths and weaknesses. You want find a build that allows you to play your personal best, not someone else.
Obviously if your goal is to deal damage your bar will not be filled with healing abilities, therefore the pool of abilities and AMPs you choose from will be smaller and there will be plenty of overlap with others.
But at the end of the day as long as your build isn't preventing you from doing content and allows you to play your way the best, there are no issues that exist except for from assholes and idiots.
I understand that other people like the limited action bar style of play. I do not, but I do not call people goosey for enjoying the different gamestyle, I only say that I personally can not see the benefit and am disapointed that the choice of Devs was one that will makes a game one that I will pass on.
Did anyone call you goosey for not enjoying a different game style?
do you have an example 20 abilities that you are using that we could see/discuss?
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Heh, kind of strayed from my original point.
My actual point was that in a game with limited ability slots vs. a game with tons of hotbars, when you reach the endgame and start raiding you are going to bring a certain set of skills that work for each occasion.
So while you can have 40 abilities on screen at once, given the nature of the raid/boss or your own build you will be using only a limited number of abilities anyway. Either because they are the most effective, the fight calls for it, or they just work for you. Whether endgame or leveling I'd imagine it'd be very unlikely that you'd ever really use more than, eh, 10 abilities during any given fight (and honestly I find 10 to be a bit of a liberal estimate IMHO).
I don't personally care. I know if a game is designed with LAS, then it's being designed around making the abilities powerful enough that I will have a strong kit of abilities that I can mix and match to fit my style. Or if I play a game without it I know my class is designed to use all these abilities situationally.
Ah yes. That makes sense.
My points up there stand for anyone that thinks "Everyone will be using the same builds because they will be better 100% of the time" ;P
Personally, I'd put the writing and environment over it, but that's just me. They constantly knock those two out of the park.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
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Also, lol at anyone claiming Wildstar "stole" LAS from The Secret World or any other game. Many, many games have used this type of system before. It's not exactly trade secrets at this point.
Esper looks pretty cool.
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Is it sad that I remember that specific discussion? Wasn't it months ago?
But yeah really digging the Esper info so far but I really want to see the Spellslinger and see how the two compare aesthetically.
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Yes, yes, we KNOW Corehealer :P
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Off the top of my head (haven't played WoW since the Pandas were announced so I can't remember all of the ability names..)
Shout, Heroic Throw (for pull-to-me) or Charge(rush-at-them), Shield Slam, Devistate x 3, Thunderclap to open. Heroic Strike for extra damage while hitting after-mitigating an attack ability whose name I can't remember as constant damage as well as shield block for mitigation. Switch Heroic Strike for Cleave in multi target situation. Now that we have opened and established threat as well as build up enough Rage for the moment, we can use Shockwave for additional threat as well as a stun to give the healers a moment to catch up, followed by a different should to debuff the boss attack, then reapplication of thunderclap and sunder. Counting Throw and Charge as a single ability instead fo two as its dependant on the eniemies fought, as well as Heroic Strike vs cleave, that's 10 abilities right there used in every single fight. Oh wait, no, 11 for taunt (we won't seperate single target and AOE taunts for the purpose of this count, even though they were different abilities with different cooldowns). 13 if you throw in rotating defensive cooldowns. 15 if there is a spell to interupt/stun. 16 for Last Stand, or if you are really compassionate the shout that gives the health bonus to your group (again different abilities, but we won't count them both as important since they shared a cooldown). Heroic Leap and Intercept for increased battlefield manuverability, and then WotF and Bezerker Rage for fear breaks. And of course Spell Reflect for turning the massive fire pillars back on their casters... how many abilities am I up to now? I'm sure I'm missing a self heal in there somewhere but I can't recall where.
Oh god dammit.
This is the same guy?
I guess that puts the kibash on continuing this conversation.
Dick buttons are the best buttons.
Hey now, I was teasing you a little but there's really no malice in it.
a#)1 A little humor never hurt anyone. Just relax man.
II) You literally have said that you do not see the gameplay differences between Zelda games and WoW. I cannot possibly communicate with that. There are fundamental differences in how you see things that the VAST majority of game playing people just cannot even fathom.
It's nothing against you but I hope if nothing else you can at least see that this difference EXISTS even if you don't understand it and that you can understand the root cause for differing thoughts and not take it so personally.
so unless i've missed something, we've got:
1. shout
2. heroic throw / charge
3. shield slam
4. devastate
5. thunderclap
6. heroic strike / cleave
7. shield block
8. shockwave
9. shout (different from 1)
10. taunt
i'll leave the 10 above as you wrote them, even though i'm sure someone could make an argument to consolidate or eliminate some of them. after the 10 above you mention the nebulous "rotating defensive cooldowns" which i'm not sure how i can address. just from the abilities listed above you have thunderclap and shield block that already fall into the "mitigate damage" category. without knowing what specifically you're referring to here (and why it can't be incorporated into other abilities) i can't really say much more.
the spell interrupt/stun that you mention could be accomplished by shockwave if it was designed that way, right? it's already a stun, according to what you wrote above, so why would you feel limited without 2 more abilities that do the same thing?
just from memory, isn't Last Stand a very powerful ability on a really long cooldown? surely you can't be using it EVERY fight, right? it's a panic button ability that people use when shit hits the fan (from what i recall).
heroic leap and intercept seem to be very similar abilities with a minor difference at the end (stun versus AoE damage). plus, we've already got charge listed up above. personally, i don't really see how 2 slight variations on charge are adding a whole lot to the game.
WotF and Berzerker rage to break fear. i find it hard to believe that you need to break fear every single fight, but i'll consider these both general CC breaks instead. is there any reason why they couldn't be combined into one ability? for that matter, couldn't they be incorporated in one of the other abilities above? perhaps one of the 2 (different?) shouts? i realize that's not the way it was designed, but this is the type of thing other people (like Joshmvii) are talking about. there's no need to have 3 abilities do 10% of a job each. have 1 ability that does 30% of the job.
spell reflect. again, i don't see how you would use this in every fight, especially on mobs that don't cast spells. the idea is unique, though for a tank this is going to be more useful as a mitigation ability than as a damage ability. if we were to consolidate any of the mitigation abilities to be more powerful, i don't see why this couldn't be on one of them (like shield block, for instance).
self heals are certainly quite useful, but every fight? or are we moving the goalposts from the original question?
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I have a similar feeling.
From watching gameplay videos.
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I don't fault that, it's a part of that game.
But Is the game better for boss fights expecting heroism to be popped during the fight to beat an enrage timer?
Only if heroism exists in the first place.
Is the game worse for not having that ability, like, at all?
Not really. Not when boss fights are then going to account for its use, making it no longer an advantage but just a button that the shaman has to hit at a specific point or else the raid wipes.
You should, ideally, feel like you are a critical part of your group or raid at all times!
A hunch if you will.
I'm pretty happy with LAS and actiony combat. If that parts fun I'll put in a lot of time with a game.
Hell, I put in more time than anyone should have with GW1 because the skill selection was so much fun to play with.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
I cringe each time I watch a video from MMOs where dude's have half the screen dedicated to hotbars.
In fact the less info they have to have on the screen the better.
"Stand here and execute your 1,2,3,1,4,1,2,3 perfectly for max deeps" is booooooring.
Basically all I saw in combat was my HP, class resource, my enemies' HP and their castbar (not my castbar since I don't play casters) and occasionally something saying 'YO! <cooldown> is ready!'
And combat text.
I wish I still had any screenshots.
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It works out really well with LAS systems because I can look at the bar and just hit the key that I know. it also means I can drink a beer with my movement hand ont he keyboard whenever I feel like it.
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If I find myself playing a game that lacks mouse driving I feel crippled.
"...only mights and maybes."
./mindplode
not ostracizing, but just trying to wrap my head around those
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I can see how that would be advantageous in games with skill bloat though, because then you'd have extra keys around your movement keys to bind to stuff.
In TOR I have q,e,r,f bound to abilities on my characters, and I eliminate the strafe keys (no loss there, this aint a shooter) and rebind chat reply to backspace (a location that is, if not as common as 'r' is at least familiar to me from previous games and so causes me no issues).
"...only mights and maybes."
I didn't have to switch over to some weirdo movement keys for weirdos.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705