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To Infinity...and Beyond!

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Posts

  • MukkMukk Registered User regular
    Can anyone explain what happened with the "Destroy everything" cliffhanger at the end of Avengers #21? Did I miss something?

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Mukk wrote: »
    Can anyone explain what happened with the "Destroy everything" cliffhanger at the end of Avengers #21? Did I miss something?
    The Avengers kicked the Aleph's asses, apparently

    Did anything come of
    Tony finding a knocked down living tribunal in New Avengers?

    Undead Scottsman on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Mukk wrote: »
    Can anyone explain what happened with the "Destroy everything" cliffhanger at the end of Avengers #21? Did I miss something?
    The Avengers kicked the Aleph's asses, apparently

    Did anything come of
    Tony finding a knocked down living tribunal in New Avengers?

    not yet, but that was teased right before Infinity started with Tony basically saying "we can't worry about that right now, there's more pressing shit going on right now."

    Hickman dosen't just do throwaway shit, it will be relevant.


    It might just not be clear how or why for another 20 issues.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Yeah Hickman loves long-form maxi-arcs which build from each other

    Arguably he's the current master of it, though I think the best ever max-arc I read was Remender's first eighteen issued of X-Force

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    i know a certain somebody who pulled off a 24 issue maxi arc :whistle:

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Yeah Hickman loves long-form maxi-arcs which build from each other

    Arguably he's the current master of it, though I think the best ever max-arc I read was Remender's first eighteen issued of X-Force

    I would consider the entire 35 issue run to be one.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZyrxilZyrxil Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    You know what I appreciate? Hickman's dialogue isn't snarky. It feels like everyone since Warren Ellis on X-Men just writes absolutely all dialogue from almost every character as a jokey/snarky blend of movie Tony Stark and Spider-Man. It's nice to have dialogue reflecting the life-and-death situation the characters are in.

    Zyrxil on
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Yeah Hickman loves long-form maxi-arcs which build from each other

    Arguably he's the current master of it, though I think the best ever max-arc I read was Remender's first eighteen issued of X-Force

    I would consider the entire 35 issue run to be one.

    I think that it is in a sense

    but you can split them into narrative halves, certainly

    also I think the first half is much better so

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    So it's fair to say the biggest criticism of this event is the lack of action?

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Also, as an aside
    I am tired of thanos. Beyond how boring he's gotten in his past few appearances, I feel like writers are falling into the stagnation trap with him. He's basically blargh-evil now, which is different from the arc he had from Infinity Gauntlet up to right before the end of Thanos imperative, when he was pretty rightfully "killed."

    I know he's part of the MCU and thus we'll be seeing lots of him, and maybe he has a greater motivation that just "I have a leftover kid from a miniseries that contradicted my stance on having kids, I'd better fix that and, btw, fuck da Earf while I'm here." that we'll see in the next 3 issues. But seriously, the most devastation Thanos has directly aimed at Earth was not to aquire the cube or assemble a star killing cannon or even assembling the Infinity Gauntlet, but was done as an afterthought while trying to kill his son, which he's apparently had for 15-20 years and just now decided he wants to be rid of.

  • RalgRalg Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    So it's fair to say the biggest criticism of this event is the lack of action?

    And what little action there is is meaningless.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    #23
    Eden is so going to die in Infinity #6, this issue even references no one has died yet.

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Ralg wrote: »
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    So it's fair to say the biggest criticism of this event is the lack of action?

    And what little action there is is meaningless.

    So you didn't like it? I'm getting the massive hardcover collection when it comes out in January so maybe the whole thing will be better read in one sitting.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • RalgRalg Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Ralg wrote: »
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    So it's fair to say the biggest criticism of this event is the lack of action?

    And what little action there is is meaningless.

    So you didn't like it? I'm getting the massive hardcover collection when it comes out in January so maybe the whole thing will be better read in one sitting.

    Nope.

    Frankly, I think I'd enjoy it more if the villains were "generic", as in "not Thanos". You really have to try to make a boring and meaningless Thanos story, and Infinity manages to do that.

    Not to mention, the Builders, if I understood correctly, defeated the LIVING TRIBUNAL. And yet are beaten by the Avengers. Er... what?

  • UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    we still dont know what happened to The Living Tribunal - there's no indication that the Builders were responsible, just that Tony and the Watcher found it, and didn't have time to investigate as the Builders were a more immediate concern.

    This is only the start of Hickman's mega mega arc, and I assumed the LT being taken out was him sowing seeds for even bigger problems to come.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Personally I feel Infinity has been the best event in ages, probably since House of M, and unless it veers wildly off course in the final issue it will be my favorite event full stop.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    How were the non-Hickman tie-ins?

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I've heard Heist was surprisingly good.

    The Hunt is meh

    Nova was good but barely ties in, Superior Team-Up was good, Mighty Avengers was fantastic, Guardiams isn't done yet but is good

    Probably forgetting some that I don't pick up.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    I've really liked Heist so farw

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    At the very least Infinity is a story where actual heroes face actual villains instead of hero vs. hero or heroes vs. mutants. Well, Fear Itself was that also but it was horribly executed despite the good concept.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • JyrenBJyrenB St. AugustineRegistered User regular
    If there's one thing I'm really enjoying about Infinity, beyond my usual love of Hickman's style of storytelling, is that it doesn't feel like most events have been in structure. The big fights are de-emphasized to focus more on the actual plot and events, so it avoids the usual "Shocking thing!, Talking, dramatic reveal, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT DEATH" pattern many events, and comics in general take. Not that I don't enjoy some good action in my comics, but it's kind of amazing if you look at just how little the fights take up in the context of the story. Even the big moments aren't pushed up to be shocking GIGANTIC THINGS like they usually are. Just another piece in the story that moves things forward, more often than not.

    It's a very macro story told like a superhero-styled epic story instead of just another summer blockbuster.

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  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Right, and in the sense of this series it makes sense, but you step back a bit and
    it's something I'd expect from Iron Man, USAgent, Spock, Wolverine and Cyclops or the other heroes who haven't set themselves up on that pedestal. But to come from Cap, that's why I say this better be the start of something new for him.

    Post-Dimension Z Cap is a different dude than the Cap you're used to. Everything in Marvel Now involving Cap makes sense now.

    So you're saying Hickman actually incorporated character progression from a singles title into his massive event story?

    If that doesn't prove Hickman isn't one of the best writers working today I don't know what else will.

    Er that wouldn't really say too much about his ability as a writer and more about his continuity fetishism.

    BitD PbP Character Volstrom
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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I would disagree. Being able to incorporate personality changes/new aspects of characters from other books seamlessly into your own title is definitely a tricky and admirable skill for a writer.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    JyrenB wrote: »
    If there's one thing I'm really enjoying about Infinity, beyond my usual love of Hickman's style of storytelling, is that it doesn't feel like most events have been in structure. The big fights are de-emphasized to focus more on the actual plot and events, so it avoids the usual "Shocking thing!, Talking, dramatic reveal, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT DEATH" pattern many events, and comics in general take. Not that I don't enjoy some good action in my comics, but it's kind of amazing if you look at just how little the fights take up in the context of the story. Even the big moments aren't pushed up to be shocking GIGANTIC THINGS like they usually are. Just another piece in the story that moves things forward, more often than not.

    It's a very macro story told like a superhero-styled epic story instead of just another summer blockbuster.

    Honestly, I find that to be an issue at some points with this story. The conflict is lacking a lot of weight. Stuff happens too fast, with not enough time spent experiencing it. It lacks tension.

    The builders are winning, having taken out the Council's trump card with ease (a trump card that had an entire event centered around how terribly powerful it was)... and then they themselves get taken out in a few pages almost immediately thereafter by Captain Universe. In their last moments, they set their robots uber kill mode. Oh no! Cliffhanger! But by the next issue, the ENTIRE ordeal is almost finished, as we see the Avengers take out the last few of the 'bots in the opening pages.

    The Avengers liberate several worlds, and we only see it in a couple of panels. There's no tension or danger there; it's just background noise to get to the next bit of people talking about how shitty things were/are/are going to be. The event isn't awful by any means; but with like 15 issues to tell a story about TWO wars, it oftens feels like Hickman is telling stories AROUND the wars, which is making these supposedly uber-important things feel far less significant than they should.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • JyrenBJyrenB St. AugustineRegistered User regular
    JyrenB wrote: »
    If there's one thing I'm really enjoying about Infinity, beyond my usual love of Hickman's style of storytelling, is that it doesn't feel like most events have been in structure. The big fights are de-emphasized to focus more on the actual plot and events, so it avoids the usual "Shocking thing!, Talking, dramatic reveal, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT DEATH" pattern many events, and comics in general take. Not that I don't enjoy some good action in my comics, but it's kind of amazing if you look at just how little the fights take up in the context of the story. Even the big moments aren't pushed up to be shocking GIGANTIC THINGS like they usually are. Just another piece in the story that moves things forward, more often than not.

    It's a very macro story told like a superhero-styled epic story instead of just another summer blockbuster.

    Honestly, I find that to be an issue at some points with this story. The conflict is lacking a lot of weight. Stuff happens too fast, with not enough time spent experiencing it. It lacks tension.

    The builders are winning, having taken out the Council's trump card with ease (a trump card that had an entire event centered around how terribly powerful it was)... and then they themselves get taken out in a few pages almost immediately thereafter by Captain Universe. In their last moments, they set their robots uber kill mode. Oh no! Cliffhanger! But by the next issue, the ENTIRE ordeal is almost finished, as we see the Avengers take out the last few of the 'bots in the opening pages.

    The Avengers liberate several worlds, and we only see it in a couple of panels. There's no tension or danger there; it's just background noise to get to the next bit of people talking about how shitty things were/are/are going to be. The event isn't awful by any means; but with like 15 issues to tell a story about TWO wars, it oftens feels like Hickman is telling stories AROUND the wars, which is making these supposedly uber-important things feel far less significant than they should.

    I can completely understand the problems you've got with it.

    Infinity feels like a kind of comic story we don't get very often, not in plot but in tone and overall structure. I'm enjoying the macro-scale of telling the story more like you'd get out of an old epic poem than anything. It especially fits the whole idea of Avengers Worlds becoming a thing. And while the battles have been quick in many cases, I think they've been handled well. Especially on the Earth side of things where it's a much smaller story going on.

    But I definitely don't think it's something that's going to work for everyone. If anything, at least some of my enjoyment is from an attempt to do something a bit different with how an event comic is told.

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  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    I remember Fraction telling how he tried to put all the "best" elements of an event comic in Fear Itself but he even so he fell way short of the mark. Hickman is truly telling an event story in a different way.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    we still dont know what happened to The Living Tribunal - there's no indication that the Builders were responsible, just that Tony and the Watcher found it, and didn't have time to investigate as the Builders were a more immediate concern.

    This is only the start of Hickman's mega mega arc, and I assumed the LT being taken out was him sowing seeds for even bigger problems to come.

    Also the Builders didn't lose the war until Captain Universe intervened, up until then the Avengers were still pretty much fucked.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Let's see if Hickman can give Infinity a satisfying conclusion.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    Infinity #6 was ok for an ending, but it felt a little too......proud? of itself, for really doing very little. It's better than other endings just because it has a logical beginning/middle/end but it does still fall into some event traps
    Thane was used almost exactly like a dragonball or anime character, brand new but powered up to all heck and freezes Thanos and Proxima in some living death cube, only to disappear and be tempted by Mordin until Captain America or Thor become super saiyans or whatever. It really felt a bit like Osborn showing up in SI to kill the Queen, only we'll see this Dark Reign portion show up in Hickman's final Avengers work if this is a trilogy.

    The epilogue was interesting in the sense that you have three big threats out there now (Kree, Skrulls, Annihilus) to build off of, which is more interesting than trying to make it seem like the New Avengers are going to ruin everything by keeping Thanos and Proxima in their little lair. It was a little too on the nose that the NA are kind of being baddies, compared to Captain Architect rebuilding cities. Let's just not try and make it such a sweeping contrast between Avengers and New Avengers this time, give the NA their due. Look at how the book made Blackbolt's deliberate misleading info about the new Inhuman dynsaty so noble compared to the NA team. Lockjaw's cool but Blackbolt and Maximus are the ones who really have the greater potential for screwing things up here, yet it's seen as being just fine. Add to it we just had the mutants be treated so poorly by the Avengers when they were demigods a year ago, lets be consistent with people who change the world.

    I don't want to say I needed a death this issue, but this is the event where people would die, not silly slapfights like Civil War or AvX. I'm glad Lockjaw saved the Earth and Eden didn't teleport right into Thanos' fist but hey, even Ex Nihilo or Abyss dying would have been something. Let Brand die or Shuri or Spider-Woman (we can agree on her, right?) Compared to Annihilation, or Thanos Imperative, which also had galaxy changing scale, it feels neutered.

    And it seemed like Thanos was way too powered up for the fight this issue, and that the fighting in general seemed all over the place. And his team, for that matter. It's kind of hard to by Proxima's star powered lance can effectively shut down an angry Hulk and depower him, but then bounce off Cap's shield and help kill Corvus (with Hyperion's help). Should have let Cannonball fight Thanos, he beat Gladiator!


    New Avengers #12, however, continues to be brilliant, and is just so much better despite being all talking heads. That's the Hickman I was expecting more of for the event.
    when you have heroes breaking bad (hur de hurr) in order to make sure they're ready, like Strange, or T'Challa being kicked out of Wakanda because he's been talking to Namor, or Blackbolt now dimished in power, that's genuine conflict and character growth as opposed to magic new character whisking everything away (which is also why Black Swan is so interesting compared to Thane, or even the New Universe kids).

    So it's a solid good event, and it was actually done on time (right?), so there's something. But there was a lot that could have been done to really make it a great event.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Cap's SHIELD was enhanced with Uru after Fear Itself, so it's probably one of the more ridiculous pieces of hardware in the universe right now. It was already legendary.

    And Thanos has always been ridiculously powered. Especially after he came back from the dead.... and then came back from the dead again. He's supposed to be one of the biggest bads in the universe, short of entities like Galactus.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • TurambarTurambar Independent Registered User regular
    NA
    Black Bolt getting a power nerf for no good reason was little lame

    It just seemed like too much of an awkward meta decision, not having anything in particular to do with the story

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  • BullioBullio Registered User regular
    Turambar wrote: »
    NA
    Black Bolt getting a power nerf for no good reason was little lame

    It just seemed like too much of an awkward meta decision, not having anything in particular to do with the story

    It wasn't for no reason though.
    Activating the Terrigen Bomb took a whole hell of a lot of power. I'm not at all surprised the guy's a little spent after destroying his kingdom and supplying the energy required to trigger the worldwide metamorphosis of his people.

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  • TurambarTurambar Independent Registered User regular
    NA
    But that doesn't mean it should be permanently halved
    The scene just seems very clumsy, and smells of writers going "Black Bolt is too powerful for this next story, let's find a reason he should be less powerful"

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    NA
    It's also a way of explaining why Black Bolt can't pull this out of his butt at a later date.

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    The rest of lackluster, but Infinity #6 was worthwhile.
    Cap taking charge, what looks like the Hulk smiling after getting hit by Thanos, Maximus/Lockjaw's excellent moment, Hyperion's gift, Thor's awesome hit, Thanos' fate, and Black Bolt/Maximus' last moment there.

    Great stuff.

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