Old Man Logan also had, ugh, Spider-Bitch which was the stupidest, most unnecessary thing ever.
And Luke Cage suddenly becoming an evil, sadistic gang lord who wears a lot of bling seemed a liiiiil racist.
Even if it wasn't Cage, he still hit all the other tropes of a stereotypical black gangsta.
In his defense, if the character was supposed to be a "gangsta," said people aren't exactly known for being subtle in the way that they embrace the worst stereotypes about themselves.
None of those men are a white Scotsman who made a conscious decision to portray that specific character in that specific context in a story that for all intents and purposes he had full creative control over.
There's a difference in a black man having the agency to act in whatever way he sees fit vs. the decision of a white man to portray a character who could be literally anyone else including aliens, mutants, or gods as a racist caricature.
Interesting article, but even so, characters are going to be written based off of stereotypes. They're easy characters to write, and while that's lazy writing I can't claim to find it offensive. I think we all fit as many stereotypes as we defy, and any quality in a fictional character can strike a nerve with someone if it's not something they like about themselves.
Also, with comics in particular almost every character has two creators. The way a writer intends to portray a character can easily be interpreted differently by an artist. I'm not trying to defend Millar's work, and I've actually never read Old Man Logan, but the last few pages of this thread just seem to be people being offended on behalf of others.
It's not until members the statistical "norm" gets offended on behalf of someone else that anything ever changes. That's the whole point of groups being "minorities." Their lesser numbers and status make them generally irrelevant in this wonderful democratic and capitalist free market of ours.
So when they do get offended on minorities' behalf I tend to appreciate it (for the most part) given that by and large the comics industry, Marvel and DC especially, don't give a flying fuck about women and non-whites because those two groups are not their core nor combined a significant percentage of their readership. While that may be a chicken/egg question (Though I think it's telling that Captain Marvel's success lies squarely on the fact that a significant percent of its audience is comprised of men and mostly women who never read comics before), as a writer I firmly stand on the side of trying to represent the world as it is—and it is most definitely not one where white men comprise 80% of the population, but where approximately that percentage of stories is and always has been about them.
I have no problem calling Mark Millar a lazy as shit racist hack for that kingpin character when he could have made a black warlord in a supervillain-controlled U.S. literally anything and instead resorted to the most simpleminded racist caricature of black thugs, and he gets a fucking pass because "... ." Fuck that shit.
As for the artists, well fuck them too. But it's pretty clear at this point that whether it's McNiven or Yu or JRJR they're either mercenaries or they're just as morally culpable in Millar's crap. But when you have a decade's worth of examples stretching the entirety of his work regardless of the collaborators it's either something specific to Millar or the most amazing coincidence of all time that his collaborators have all shared in promoting what is a non-stop message of sexism, racism, and holy shit we haven't even mentioned the homophobia yet.
As a writer, I'm sure you can admit that it's by no means easy to write about something you don't fully understand. Fact is, a majority of writers are white males, yourself included. Your interpretation of anything other than a white male is going to be offensive to some one, some how. On top of that, I'm sure a lot of white males could find your portrayal of white males offensive. I don't think this reflects an inability to relate to others as much as it reflects an inability to accept that people don't understand you.
The greatest culpability in differences between different groups is that each group allows and perpetuates stereotypes or even truths about themselves to the point that they become offensive.
At the end of the day it comes down to each and everyone of us to say "hey, this is me" and let people accept us for that or not.
Sinogue on
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
As a writer, I'm sure you can admit that it's by no means easy to write about something you don't fully understand. Fact is, a majority of writers are white males, yourself included. Your interpretation of anything other than a white male is going to be offensive to some one, some how. On top of that, I'm sure a lot of white males could find your portrayal of white males offensive. I don't think this reflects an inability to relate to others as much as it reflects an inability to accept that people don't understand you.
The greatest culpability in differences between different groups is that each group allows and perpetuates stereotypes or even truths about themselves to the point that they become offensive.
At the end of the day it comes down to each and everyone of us to say "hey, this is me" and let people accept us for that or not.
if you are a member of a privileged majority writing a minority character it is your responsibility to do your homework and do everything you can to make the portrayal of that character not racist/stereotyped/harmful. If you choose not to, you deserve any criticism you get.
Are there minority writers that write cisgendered heterosexual white males poorly? Oh, most definitely if you look hard enough. But as there are A ) depressingly few POC writers in comics, B ) a proportional lack of good, well written minority characters in comics, and C ) no meaningful history of cishet white dudes being portrayed harmfully in comics, I have a hard time giving more than a passing fuck about that.
UnbrokenEva on
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
Also a fair/unstereotyped portrayal of cishet white dudes is a lot easier for someone who is not all of the above to write than it is for a cishet white dude to write a good POC/queer/woman character because they spend their whole lives with our perspective shoved down their throats as "normal" where we don't have nearly the same experience seeing the world through their eyes. That makes it all the more important that we try, and all the more obvious when Millar doesn't.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
This might just be some rambling, but I don't care, feel me fam:
So big stuff happened in Uncanny Avengers #14, stuff that would make the artist a good chunk of change from original artwork let alone having some nice pages to show to people as saying "I was a part of that." But it was also the beginning of Steve McNiven taking over the book, a guy who is in high demand and already gets top shelf treatment. Yet the guy who pulled UA's delayed butt out of the fire due to the actions of the last top shelf guy, Acuna, doesn't get a bite of any of those big scenes in UA #14, and didn't really have big scenes of that iconic stature in the past few issues he worked on.
This happened a lot in the past decade or so where the big name artist would need issues of fill-ins and then the bigger name would draw a key issue or just the key pages of a story (like Morales drawing WW snapping Max's neck), even though they didn't carry the weight in recent months to really deserve that. And I hate to even use the word "deserve" in this sense, but give the guy's their due.
I guess what I'm saying is let Acuna draw #14 to cap his run, and then start McNiven on 15 and give him another issues of lead-in because a delay/fill-in is gonna happen.
Pretty sure the problem isn't with showing an ass, it is with the fact that She-Hulk is literally just an ass in that shot on top of the ridiculously common sexualization of female superheroes
Yeah, from a visual standpoint, She-Hulk's ass is absolutely the focal point of that panel. I mean, if it was the main figure doing the talking in the panel, that would be something, but it's literally just there to be an ass. There is really no reason it could be a shot of her lower back instead, and it would still be just as obvious who you're looking past.
And notice how the male bodies are focused upon as objects of lust
And then imagine that that's how all male characters in all stories have to be depicted from now on, no matter whether it's appropriate to the scene or fits their characterization or anything else, including if they even have a pulse.
Now maybe you've got some tiny slim idea of how women are treated in comics. Except it's still not even close, because at least in twilight the men are still allowed sexual agency!
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
And notice how the male bodies are focused upon as objects of lust
And then imagine that that's how all male characters in all stories have to be depicted from now on, no matter whether it's appropriate to the scene or fits their characterization or anything else, including if they even have a pulse.
Now maybe you've got some tiny slim idea of how women are treated in comics. Except it's still not even close, because at least in twilight the men are still allowed sexual agency!
Which is still better then how girls are treated in Twilight.
And notice how the male bodies are focused upon as objects of lust
And then imagine that that's how all male characters in all stories have to be depicted from now on, no matter whether it's appropriate to the scene or fits their characterization or anything else, including if they even have a pulse.
Now maybe you've got some tiny slim idea of how women are treated in comics. Except it's still not even close, because at least in twilight the men are still allowed sexual agency!
Which is still better then how girls are treated in Twilight.
twilight's totally not a great example
but that's because there's virtually no example that can actually compare against the sheer universality of the male gaze and female objectification, especially in comics.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I know I'm just tired of critically readings of comic books. There is loads of material out there now that isn't cheesecake. Saga and Rat Queens come to mind. Or even the current FF run, they did a good job of their pool party issue. The common thread is good writers/artists. Digging out the trashiest comic options available and working yourself into an amok over it is just so futile. I really hope that people who do this are voting with their dollars and actually supporting smart, progressive comics...
I know I'm just tired of critically readings of comic books. There is loads of material out there now that isn't cheesecake. Saga and Rat Queens come to mind. Or even the current FF run, they did a good job of their pool party issue. The common thread is good writers/artists. Digging out the trashiest comic options available and working yourself into an amok over it is just so futile. I really hope that people who do this are voting with their dollars and actually supporting smart, progressive comics...
The important point is that those examples of good things are just a handful right now.
Yes, it's getting better. Yes, at this rate, it will continue to get better. But it is something that absolutely has to be addressed until it IS better. And even then, one has to keep an eye on things to make sure other bad habits don't become the norm.
And the thing is, Civil War isn't really the trashiest comic option. It was a major event comic that brought massive amounts of readers back into the fold despite the various problems and delays and what have you. It is, to many readers, what a superhero comic should be. And panels like that with She-Hulk are extremely problematic for that viewpoint.
Basically, never stop being critical. Complacency is the enemy. And sure, I'm saying this from the perspective of someone making comics and trying to fight these problems, but that doesn't mean readers should be any less aware and critical.
I think, in this thread especially, it might be acceptable to, time to time, criticize what others choose to be critical about.
Agreed.
Discrimination in the medium, especially in the dominant genre (generally and with regards to this forum) is not one of those issues.
I unfollowed and gave up interest in Jim Steranko's tweets once he replied to a question I asked him about the unrepresentative demographics in the Big Two and he gave me the standard, colorblind racism bullshit that people just need to work harder. In an industry where Greg fucking Land is a top "artist" that argument carries absolutely no weight.
The problem is fucking comics. It's a hard to be into if you're not the stereotypical white, nearly middle-aged geek guy. I see merchandise all over the place. The movies make ridiculous amounts of money. But the actual comics themselves and the fucking fans are terribly unrepresentative and incredibly hostile to outsiders and change. I compare the Big Two to the GOP all the time because the only difference in their core demos is age. They're unrepresentative of the U.S. and world at large, stuck in the past, incredibly hostile to change, and are in the process of aging themselves into irrelevancy. Even Captain Marvel is a perfect example of this. Like a certain latina governor of New Mexico, she attracted people who never before would have invested themselves in that product. But make no mistake, nobody's seriously acting like either are the future of Marvel or the GOP, and while both may get trotted out a lot to make token appearances (emphasis on token) for the most people the core doesn't take them seriously and they don't futures in being bigger/more important than they are right now.
I dunno, how many comics can you read? If there's like 10 good mainstream comics that's enough for me. I do agree with what you're saying @JyrenB there's just this fine line where it goes from being an aware reader to just whinging. Why does everyone spend so much time complaining about a nipple on Captain Marvel or a She Hulk bum while the indie comic thread just hangs in there on page one? Sure try to elevate the medium (hint there's only so much you can do with your dollar vote, why not make a podcast/blog or even write draw your own comic??)
If you only read and purchase dreck (and most super hero comics are kinda dreck sorry) then don't be surprised when the dreck is drecky. The problem is that people don't differentiate between artists and IPs. Different artists and writers will deliver work that is qualitatively different. Like I said She Hulk isn't sexualised in FF... Because that's written by Matt Fraction and drawn by Mike Allred. If you like that depiction but refuse to give Satellite Sam or Madman a go well then this whole thing is sort of your fault too. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but I just get this general vibe that some comic fans are going to the store and picking up a a bunch of big two spandex comics and then trying to find depth in a (on the whole) shallow genre.
In addition I've actually found that when I do pick up the Marvel stuff, it isn't even as bad as everybody is always making it out to be. A lot of it is smart and progressive. Not that that stops comic fans from whinging. When
Nico was "killed" in Avengers Arena
Everyone on tumblr totally lost their nut "THIS IS RACIST, THIS IS SEXIST, rarara"
Then when
Nico came back and kicked total ass and was awesome and completely lived up to who she is meant to be
Nobody was like "Oh wow I was wrong this is great." all I could see was self important dorks who thought that Marvel had quickly changed the direction of the story because of fan complaints (because that's totally how tight bimonthly art and writing schedules work)
But I know it's the whinging thread though so I'll shut up now.
@Amigu, I'll be honest: something about your post upset me a little, and I started writing a long screed before stopping, rolling my eyes at how melodramatic I'm being, and erasing all of it.
Let me summarize, though: Give us some credit. No one here is saying "I think [thing X] is problematic" just for fun. Everyone here is into comics. Way into comics. Everyone here wants comics to be good. Complaining about a nipple on Captain Marvel and reading indie comics are not mutually exclusive. Superhero comics may be drek (P.S. I disagree with a broad statement like that), but that doesn't mean we go "welp, superhero comics are drek, let's give up on them", for the same reason that if you go around punching people in the face, I wouldn't go "Oh, that's just Amigu, he punches everyone in the face".
Also, on the subject of people complaining about things that aren't complaint-worthy: Even when someone complains about something that, to me, seems like a non-issue, I generally try to not discount their points of view. I'm only one guy with a limited set of experiences and a very limited point of view. If someone says "Hey, look at that elephant" and you don't see the elephant, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no elephant; it could also mean that the elephant is behind you. Given that I'm a middle-class straight white guy, there are entire herds of elephants that I have never, ever seen in my entire life - but unfortunately they exist. If I don't want those herds to trample me or the people I care about, I gotta start trusting people who CAN see the elephants.
...I think my analogy may have gotten away from me a little.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
I don't know. I kind of see where @Amigu is coming from in some ways. There seems to be a fairly arbitrary line that is drawn on this forum sometimes relative to what is and isn't acceptable in the comics we're all reading. The concepts of "Fridging" and "Cheesecake" get thrown around a lot in this forum and, while I agree it's a good thing to be vigilant and critical of the content we consume, I do feel that certain people sometimes go way overboard.
The risk of course is that if we're crying wolf at everything we see the discussion (a very important one at that) eventually becomes pretty muted.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
at the same time, letting harmful or exploitative portrayals pass uncriticized further normalizes them. Not every negative portrayal is the worst thing ever, but even things that are only mildly sexist/racist/etc are steps in the wrong direction.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Everyone unwindulax.
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
Superhero comics may be drek (P.S. I disagree with a broad statement like that)
“You can make your superhero a psychopath, you can draw gut-splattering violence, and you can call it a "graphic novel," but comic books are still incredibly stupid.”
If you don't think that finding fault and declaring stuff "problematic" and looking for things to be offended about just for fun (or, more specifically, to feel important/superior) is a thing, well, clearly you have never been to Tumblr.
Not saying people here do that (or at least not nearly to the same degree), but I can see how a person who is already fatigued by exposure to the Tumblr crowd and their ilk would get cranky about it.
Posts
well
the art
tit + ass shots in the same panel
None of those men are a white Scotsman who made a conscious decision to portray that specific character in that specific context in a story that for all intents and purposes he had full creative control over.
There's a difference in a black man having the agency to act in whatever way he sees fit vs. the decision of a white man to portray a character who could be literally anyone else including aliens, mutants, or gods as a racist caricature.
"The One Thing White Writers Get Away With, But Authors of Color Don't"
Also, with comics in particular almost every character has two creators. The way a writer intends to portray a character can easily be interpreted differently by an artist. I'm not trying to defend Millar's work, and I've actually never read Old Man Logan, but the last few pages of this thread just seem to be people being offended on behalf of others.
So when they do get offended on minorities' behalf I tend to appreciate it (for the most part) given that by and large the comics industry, Marvel and DC especially, don't give a flying fuck about women and non-whites because those two groups are not their core nor combined a significant percentage of their readership. While that may be a chicken/egg question (Though I think it's telling that Captain Marvel's success lies squarely on the fact that a significant percent of its audience is comprised of men and mostly women who never read comics before), as a writer I firmly stand on the side of trying to represent the world as it is—and it is most definitely not one where white men comprise 80% of the population, but where approximately that percentage of stories is and always has been about them.
I have no problem calling Mark Millar a lazy as shit racist hack for that kingpin character when he could have made a black warlord in a supervillain-controlled U.S. literally anything and instead resorted to the most simpleminded racist caricature of black thugs, and he gets a fucking pass because "... ." Fuck that shit.
As for the artists, well fuck them too. But it's pretty clear at this point that whether it's McNiven or Yu or JRJR they're either mercenaries or they're just as morally culpable in Millar's crap. But when you have a decade's worth of examples stretching the entirety of his work regardless of the collaborators it's either something specific to Millar or the most amazing coincidence of all time that his collaborators have all shared in promoting what is a non-stop message of sexism, racism, and holy shit we haven't even mentioned the homophobia yet.
You sure you're remembering right? Civil War was drawn by McNiven, and he's not usually a T&A guy.
The greatest culpability in differences between different groups is that each group allows and perpetuates stereotypes or even truths about themselves to the point that they become offensive.
At the end of the day it comes down to each and everyone of us to say "hey, this is me" and let people accept us for that or not.
are you sure you're remembering right
try to remember that one panel with sue talking to reed while he's poring over equations
or that one panel of she-hulk that is literally just an ass shot
4.bp.blogspot.com/_qO8Yb77bIVI/TAWeHMIspSI/AAAAAAAAAFM/Si29NiFKajI/s320/civilwar_shehulk.bmp
Wow. That is QUITE the ass.
well, one of us has a terrible memory
if you are a member of a privileged majority writing a minority character it is your responsibility to do your homework and do everything you can to make the portrayal of that character not racist/stereotyped/harmful. If you choose not to, you deserve any criticism you get.
Are there minority writers that write cisgendered heterosexual white males poorly? Oh, most definitely if you look hard enough. But as there are A ) depressingly few POC writers in comics, B ) a proportional lack of good, well written minority characters in comics, and C ) no meaningful history of cishet white dudes being portrayed harmfully in comics, I have a hard time giving more than a passing fuck about that.
Pretty sure her uniform is just body paint in that panel.
Steve McNiven did that art, not him
So big stuff happened in Uncanny Avengers #14, stuff that would make the artist a good chunk of change from original artwork let alone having some nice pages to show to people as saying "I was a part of that." But it was also the beginning of Steve McNiven taking over the book, a guy who is in high demand and already gets top shelf treatment. Yet the guy who pulled UA's delayed butt out of the fire due to the actions of the last top shelf guy, Acuna, doesn't get a bite of any of those big scenes in UA #14, and didn't really have big scenes of that iconic stature in the past few issues he worked on.
This happened a lot in the past decade or so where the big name artist would need issues of fill-ins and then the bigger name would draw a key issue or just the key pages of a story (like Morales drawing WW snapping Max's neck), even though they didn't carry the weight in recent months to really deserve that. And I hate to even use the word "deserve" in this sense, but give the guy's their due.
I guess what I'm saying is let Acuna draw #14 to cap his run, and then start McNiven on 15 and give him another issues of lead-in because a delay/fill-in is gonna happen.
XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
And notice how the male bodies are focused upon as objects of lust
And then imagine that that's how all male characters in all stories have to be depicted from now on, no matter whether it's appropriate to the scene or fits their characterization or anything else, including if they even have a pulse.
Now maybe you've got some tiny slim idea of how women are treated in comics. Except it's still not even close, because at least in twilight the men are still allowed sexual agency!
Which is still better then how girls are treated in Twilight.
twilight's totally not a great example
but that's because there's virtually no example that can actually compare against the sheer universality of the male gaze and female objectification, especially in comics.
The important point is that those examples of good things are just a handful right now.
Yes, it's getting better. Yes, at this rate, it will continue to get better. But it is something that absolutely has to be addressed until it IS better. And even then, one has to keep an eye on things to make sure other bad habits don't become the norm.
And the thing is, Civil War isn't really the trashiest comic option. It was a major event comic that brought massive amounts of readers back into the fold despite the various problems and delays and what have you. It is, to many readers, what a superhero comic should be. And panels like that with She-Hulk are extremely problematic for that viewpoint.
Basically, never stop being critical. Complacency is the enemy. And sure, I'm saying this from the perspective of someone making comics and trying to fight these problems, but that doesn't mean readers should be any less aware and critical.
XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
Pretty frustrating. Just wanted to share that.
Discrimination in the medium, especially in the dominant genre (generally and with regards to this forum) is not one of those issues.
I unfollowed and gave up interest in Jim Steranko's tweets once he replied to a question I asked him about the unrepresentative demographics in the Big Two and he gave me the standard, colorblind racism bullshit that people just need to work harder. In an industry where Greg fucking Land is a top "artist" that argument carries absolutely no weight.
The problem is fucking comics. It's a hard to be into if you're not the stereotypical white, nearly middle-aged geek guy. I see merchandise all over the place. The movies make ridiculous amounts of money. But the actual comics themselves and the fucking fans are terribly unrepresentative and incredibly hostile to outsiders and change. I compare the Big Two to the GOP all the time because the only difference in their core demos is age. They're unrepresentative of the U.S. and world at large, stuck in the past, incredibly hostile to change, and are in the process of aging themselves into irrelevancy. Even Captain Marvel is a perfect example of this. Like a certain latina governor of New Mexico, she attracted people who never before would have invested themselves in that product. But make no mistake, nobody's seriously acting like either are the future of Marvel or the GOP, and while both may get trotted out a lot to make token appearances (emphasis on token) for the most people the core doesn't take them seriously and they don't futures in being bigger/more important than they are right now.
>.>
<.<
*Pssst*
I got yer comics right here, mutha futzer
Save a tree, Dawg.
If you only read and purchase dreck (and most super hero comics are kinda dreck sorry) then don't be surprised when the dreck is drecky. The problem is that people don't differentiate between artists and IPs. Different artists and writers will deliver work that is qualitatively different. Like I said She Hulk isn't sexualised in FF... Because that's written by Matt Fraction and drawn by Mike Allred. If you like that depiction but refuse to give Satellite Sam or Madman a go well then this whole thing is sort of your fault too. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but I just get this general vibe that some comic fans are going to the store and picking up a a bunch of big two spandex comics and then trying to find depth in a (on the whole) shallow genre.
In addition I've actually found that when I do pick up the Marvel stuff, it isn't even as bad as everybody is always making it out to be. A lot of it is smart and progressive. Not that that stops comic fans from whinging. When
Everyone on tumblr totally lost their nut "THIS IS RACIST, THIS IS SEXIST, rarara"
Then when
Nobody was like "Oh wow I was wrong this is great." all I could see was self important dorks who thought that Marvel had quickly changed the direction of the story because of fan complaints (because that's totally how tight bimonthly art and writing schedules work)
But I know it's the whinging thread though so I'll shut up now.
Let me summarize, though: Give us some credit. No one here is saying "I think [thing X] is problematic" just for fun. Everyone here is into comics. Way into comics. Everyone here wants comics to be good. Complaining about a nipple on Captain Marvel and reading indie comics are not mutually exclusive. Superhero comics may be drek (P.S. I disagree with a broad statement like that), but that doesn't mean we go "welp, superhero comics are drek, let's give up on them", for the same reason that if you go around punching people in the face, I wouldn't go "Oh, that's just Amigu, he punches everyone in the face".
Also, on the subject of people complaining about things that aren't complaint-worthy: Even when someone complains about something that, to me, seems like a non-issue, I generally try to not discount their points of view. I'm only one guy with a limited set of experiences and a very limited point of view. If someone says "Hey, look at that elephant" and you don't see the elephant, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no elephant; it could also mean that the elephant is behind you. Given that I'm a middle-class straight white guy, there are entire herds of elephants that I have never, ever seen in my entire life - but unfortunately they exist. If I don't want those herds to trample me or the people I care about, I gotta start trusting people who CAN see the elephants.
...I think my analogy may have gotten away from me a little.
I'm just saying: when people say "this looks bad", give them the benefit of the doubt.
The risk of course is that if we're crying wolf at everything we see the discussion (a very important one at that) eventually becomes pretty muted.
Not saying people here do that (or at least not nearly to the same degree), but I can see how a person who is already fatigued by exposure to the Tumblr crowd and their ilk would get cranky about it.