The kid was obviously disturbed and what he did do was terrible. but I've seen several headlines today like:
"Colorado Gunman Intended to Kill Many, Police Say"
"Colorado school shooter came armed for slaughter"
"Colorado school rampage lasted less than 2 minutes"
Like, is what did happen not bad enough? Why do the Cops/Media need to construct this massive counter-factual blood bath that didn't actually happen to scare people with. And I think it makes how we perceive the entire incident wrong.
I guess this is equally speculative, but from the facts we have this thing reads much more as a 'suicide but I'm taking that bastard with me' situation rather than a lets shoot everyone I can cause I'm fucking crazy. Evidenced by the fact that he shot 1 person( because 'that bastard' was out of reach) and then killed himself.
Well the cynic answer is "no". What happened isn't enough, because school shootings aren't that rare anymore. So the media has to exaggerate to get those sweet sweet page views/viewers.
the change is instant media coverage every time one happens no matter where in the country it happens
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Yeah but how many kids say "I'm going to kill x" and actually mean it?
This is unacceptable behavior. It really is, stop trying to defend it.
If a guy threatens to rape a girl, do we let it pass with a "well he doesn't mean it."?
No! You let it be known that some things are just off limits. Threatening another human being should cause alarm, not apathy.
Not to mention, how is a teacher or students supposed to operate when some one is making death threats against them, and they are forced to interact with that person on a daily basis?
People who make those kinds of claims do that wither:
1. Think its hilarious and funny, and need to be taught that it is unacceptable.
Or
2. Dead serious and in need of help.
You don't want number 2 around others until they get help, and number 1 will not be hurt in any way by being punished.
My thoughts, are reading the stories, you go all over the place. I don't know who made stuff up, but they can't all be right. I understand you want to be first, but I'm tired of this I'm going to be first. I would rather have correct than first, but I don't think media works that way anymore. Besides everyone having there agenda.
+1
Options
DeadfallI don't think you realize just how rich he is.In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered Userregular
the change is instant media coverage every time one happens no matter where in the country it happens
we might have enough schools in the us that it's rare statistically, but you can't argue that it's totally rare and at the same time happening frequently enough that simple media coverage just makes it seem like a lot.
I was just flabbergasted that anyone could be angry that someone ran when targeted by a guy with a gun
Are you forgetting that he used his authority to bully a teenager to the point of breaking down?
The teenage gunman who entered Arapahoe High School on Friday afternoon and shot two fellow students with a shotgun was outspoken about politics, was a gifted debater and might have been bullied for his beliefs, according to students who knew him.
Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson identified the gunman as Karl Pierson, an 18-year-old student.
"He had very strong beliefs about gun laws and stuff," said junior Abbey Skoda, who was in a class with Pierson during her freshman year. "I also heard he was bullied a lot."
Robinson said that his department was investigating reports that Pierson was seeking to settle a score with a teacher after a confrontation.
What, exactly, about this section, the only part in that article that mentioned bullying, tells you that it was the teacher doing the bullying?
Yeah, I'm not really seeing anything in that article that mentions that the teacher was involved with bullying the kid, which makes the claim speculation. The article certainly gives more credence to the idea that the kid was bullied.
Yeah, I'm not really seeing anything in that article that mentions that the teacher was involved with bullying the kid, which makes the claim speculation. The article certainly gives more credence to the idea that the kid was bullied.
I'm not even sure it does that. The part that Caulk just quoted only has a person, who only had a single class with him two years prior, saying she heard he was. It's not exactly like they spoke to one of his friends (something I doubt anyone is jumping to proclaim them self right now) or anyone that actually knew him well.
the change is instant media coverage every time one happens no matter where in the country it happens
we might have enough schools in the us that it's rare statistically, but you can't argue that it's totally rare and at the same time happening frequently enough that simple media coverage just makes it seem like a lot.
While the pupils of the Meridian Street School were at play, Ben Corbery drew a revolver and shot Cora Brubach, aged 10, seriously wounding her in the face. The reason for the assault was that the girl had informed the teacher of Ben's misconduct
George M. DeWolfe, aged 18, shot fellow graduate Lillian Thoroughgood, aged 17, then shot and killed himself in the head, during the school closing ceremonies
15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School after he had been reprimanded from the school
Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22 caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre.
Then by statistics: the number of shooting events per million citizens today is lower than it was in the 1890s or 1900s, even though we have an older average population and higher school attendance, yet I don't think we're gonna argue that the 1890s were a decade defined by fear of school shootings, are we? (they weren't)
Then by a joke I'm stealing from Dara O'Briain: Just because the media spends all their time talking about something doesn't make it NOT incredibly rare. In fact did you know that coverage of zombie attacks is at an all-time high, yet zombie attacks are actually at an all time low?
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
One neighbor described him as bright but a social misfit whose peers ridiculed him. His mother had transferred him from another high school because of the mockery and altercations, the neighbor said.
He was definitely bullied at his last school. Considering his outspoken political beliefs, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that could have continued after the transfer. But I've seen nothing suggesting the faculty was involved.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Also, would someone enlighten me: I thought that in the US, when you're in high school you're usually picked up in a school bus or dropped of by a parent. (Worst case: walk to school)
It would seem to me that you'd arouse suspicion if you carried around a shotgun in those circumstances. ("It's bring your loaded shotgun to school day, MOM, don't be such a square!")
But maybe he had his own car? They didn't encourage cars where I studied mostly because parking was very limited.
So, it actually turns out his parents are divorced (separated in 2011), he lives with his mother and sister (mom kept the house), his mother worked for Douglas County School District (possibly still does and, according to one of his friends, the shooter was a vocal, self-proclaimed communist. He bought the gun ten days ago.
I wasn't joking around when I posted that.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Apparently it'll be no small miracle if she survives, and she'll probably be horribly disfigured in any case.
Lovely holiday gift.
As far as the shooter (who also had a fucking machete with him, because what else says, "I'm a force for social justice!" like arming yourself with the choice weapon of genocidal armies?) offing himself because 'remorse' - he apparently managed to get himself trapped in the library after lighting the bookshelves on fire with his bombs, and killed himself after that.
Whether or not you want to describe that as monstrous behavior or not is up to you, I guess.
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Nothing I've read says he was communist. Only that he hated the GOP and espoused Keynesian economic ideas.
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Nothing I've read says he was communist. Only that he hated the GOP and espoused Keynesian economic ideas.
Students and a teacher described Pierson as a smart and sometimes goofy student who often talked about his beliefs during class, sometimes even debating his teachers. They said he was outspoken about his Communist-leaning political views.
Students said Pierson held communist views and liked to discuss current events and issues, offering his own solutions. None said Pierson was bullied for his beliefs.
And, of course, the right-wing blogosphere is on this like a fat kid on cake...I don't recommend a google search.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I'm getting tired of the "find out what makes killers tick" line of thinking every time this comes up. The guy happened to have communist beliefs. There's nothing in communist ideology about killing teachers wantonly. They are not related, and even if they were, most liberals are not communists.
Yet "he was left wing!" is going to be what we hear from the conservative blogosphere. Not because it was relevant, but because they think this is a victory for their side. It's sickening to me.
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Nothing I've read says he was communist. Only that he hated the GOP and espoused Keynesian economic ideas.
Students and a teacher described Pierson as a smart and sometimes goofy student who often talked about his beliefs during class, sometimes even debating his teachers. They said he was outspoken about his Communist-leaning political views.
Students said Pierson held communist views and liked to discuss current events and issues, offering his own solutions. None said Pierson was bullied for his beliefs.
And, of course, the right-wing blogosphere is on this like a fat kid on cake...I don't recommend a google search.
I don't trust what any american I don't know calls "communist-leaning belief". They all Obama a communist.
If his beliefs put him in conflict with the people around him, they may be conservative enough that progressive liberalism is what they call "communism".
I'm getting tired of the "find out what makes killers tick" line of thinking every time this comes up. The guy happened to have communist beliefs. There's nothing in communist ideology about killing teachers wantonly. They are not related, and even if they were, most liberals are not communists.
Yet "he was left wing!" is going to be what we hear from the conservative blogosphere. Not because it was relevant, but because they think this is a victory for their side. It's sickening to me.
Well, yes...both sides do it whenever a bad actor espouses an opposing political view. Hell, @Trace very well may owe us a testicle after his attempt to blame this on the Right earlier in the thread.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I tend to sympathize with the "crazies gonna crazy" sentiment most people usually express.
Now, if a part of an ideology does cause terrible things then I take issue with the ideology itself, but that clearly isn't what happened in this instance.
I tend to sympathize with the "crazies gonna crazy" sentiment most people usually express.
Now, if a part of an ideology does cause terrible things then I take issue with the ideology itself, but that clearly isn't what happened in this instance.
I really dislike the 'crazies gonna crazy' sentiment. It suggests that all violent crime is perpetrated solely by clinical psychopaths & comes from some Other force; that violence in society is not only incomprehensible, but that we shouldn't even try to understand how it happens.
Obviously it's stupid to attribute a blanket political ideology to violent crime or to suppose that there is some criminal behavior bomb fuse waiting to be discovered, but 'crazy' isn't even an appropriate label to begin with, and I think it's a very worthwhile pursuit to try and find out what environmental factors contribute towards violent behavior.
It's kind of silly to attribute a fully-formed political identity to a suburban white kid who is still in high school. He does seem to have had a good head for parsing out those sorts of ideas, but there isn't a whole lot of opportunity to test those beliefs in that arena. The stuff I'm seeing from him is definitely left-leaning, but the odds that he had any idea what communism is really about growing up in an affluent Denver suburb are pretty low.
But it's also a complete cop out to just throw our collective hands in the air whenever something like this happens and shout "he was crazy, nothing to see here!" like human behavior is somehow completely inscrutable to us. This kid grew up in a society (America) where we really like the idea of solving our issues with violence, specifically gun violence. So many of our heroic figures and cultural role models carry guns and use them rather liberally. Hell, I shot some (virtual) dudes from my couch just this morning and was given a (virtual) trophy for it. It felt great! To assume that those images and ideas, combined with access to firearms, didn't contribute here doesn't make any sense.
Of course they are. Because why miss an opportunity to score cheap political points and rile up your base?
What's good for the gun-control goose is good for the free-market gander I guess?
Liberals don't get to be outraged about this aspect, especially considering the liberal outrage about how ineffective they were at political success on the back of the last couple of incidents.
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Nothing I've read says he was communist. Only that he hated the GOP and espoused Keynesian economic ideas.
Students and a teacher described Pierson as a smart and sometimes goofy student who often talked about his beliefs during class, sometimes even debating his teachers. They said he was outspoken about his Communist-leaning political views.
Students said Pierson held communist views and liked to discuss current events and issues, offering his own solutions. None said Pierson was bullied for his beliefs.
And, of course, the right-wing blogosphere is on this like a fat kid on cake...I don't recommend a google search.
I don't trust what any american I don't know calls "communist-leaning belief". They all Obama a communist.
If his beliefs put him in conflict with the people around him, they may be conservative enough that progressive liberalism is what they call "communism".
Not helping your case much to argue that bog-standard progressive liberalism is what motivated him.
Of course they are. Because why miss an opportunity to score cheap political points and rile up your base?
What's good for the gun-control goose is good for the free-market gander I guess?
Liberals don't get to be outraged about this aspect, especially considering the liberal outrage about how ineffective they were at political success on the back of the last couple of incidents.
Let's not discount the hypocrisy running the other direction, though.
If "right wing, anti-government type" isn't a reasonable point of conversation about a shooter, as we've been told time and time that it isn't, then "teenage conceptual communist" shouldn't be either.
Posts
Well the cynic answer is "no". What happened isn't enough, because school shootings aren't that rare anymore. So the media has to exaggerate to get those sweet sweet page views/viewers.
the change is instant media coverage every time one happens no matter where in the country it happens
This is unacceptable behavior. It really is, stop trying to defend it.
If a guy threatens to rape a girl, do we let it pass with a "well he doesn't mean it."?
No! You let it be known that some things are just off limits. Threatening another human being should cause alarm, not apathy.
Not to mention, how is a teacher or students supposed to operate when some one is making death threats against them, and they are forced to interact with that person on a daily basis?
People who make those kinds of claims do that wither:
1. Think its hilarious and funny, and need to be taught that it is unacceptable.
Or
2. Dead serious and in need of help.
You don't want number 2 around others until they get help, and number 1 will not be hurt in any way by being punished.
I was just flabbergasted that anyone could be angry that someone ran when targeted by a guy with a gun
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
we might have enough schools in the us that it's rare statistically, but you can't argue that it's totally rare and at the same time happening frequently enough that simple media coverage just makes it seem like a lot.
Are you forgetting that he used his authority to bully a teenager to the point of breaking down?
Please cite where you found this interesting fact.
Arapahoe High Gunman Held Strong Political Beliefs
What, exactly, about this section, the only part in that article that mentioned bullying, tells you that it was the teacher doing the bullying?
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
I'm not even sure it does that. The part that Caulk just quoted only has a person, who only had a single class with him two years prior, saying she heard he was. It's not exactly like they spoke to one of his friends (something I doubt anyone is jumping to proclaim them self right now) or anyone that actually knew him well.
What? sure I can!
First by anecdote:
2: Boston, Mass, 1906
3: Maryland 1956
4: Mesa, Arizona
Then by statistics: the number of shooting events per million citizens today is lower than it was in the 1890s or 1900s, even though we have an older average population and higher school attendance, yet I don't think we're gonna argue that the 1890s were a decade defined by fear of school shootings, are we? (they weren't)
Then by a joke I'm stealing from Dara O'Briain: Just because the media spends all their time talking about something doesn't make it NOT incredibly rare. In fact did you know that coverage of zombie attacks is at an all-time high, yet zombie attacks are actually at an all time low?
The teacher was supposed to be an adult. At no point should that confrontation have escalated to tears, death threats, and a suspension.
Still conjecture, since we don't know the content of the confrontation, beyond death threat and suspension.
And where are you getting this bit about the tears?
Uh ... that article does not support your contention.
I'm curious how this is the teachers fault.
What are you basing this on, other than the rank assumption that teenagers do not commit violent crimes unless some adult instigates it?
He was definitely bullied at his last school. Considering his outspoken political beliefs, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that could have continued after the transfer. But I've seen nothing suggesting the faculty was involved.
- John Stuart Mill
How have you come to the conclusion that any of it was the teacher's fault? How do you know there were tears? Why are you making things up?
While you are right, saying "Communism is fairly liberal" would be the same as saying "an anarchist is pretty right-wing"
Communism as a system is a too specific of a system to just toss out as "ooh, it's a liberal idea"
I wonder if he realized that he himself was the Bourgeois that he was trying to rise up against?
Also, would someone enlighten me: I thought that in the US, when you're in high school you're usually picked up in a school bus or dropped of by a parent. (Worst case: walk to school)
It would seem to me that you'd arouse suspicion if you carried around a shotgun in those circumstances. ("It's bring your loaded shotgun to school day, MOM, don't be such a square!")
But maybe he had his own car? They didn't encourage cars where I studied mostly because parking was very limited.
The care put in to picking up and dropping off is also only really a thing in elementary school since the kids are so much younger.
I wasn't joking around when I posted that.
- John Stuart Mill
Apparently it'll be no small miracle if she survives, and she'll probably be horribly disfigured in any case.
Lovely holiday gift.
As far as the shooter (who also had a fucking machete with him, because what else says, "I'm a force for social justice!" like arming yourself with the choice weapon of genocidal armies?) offing himself because 'remorse' - he apparently managed to get himself trapped in the library after lighting the bookshelves on fire with his bombs, and killed himself after that.
Whether or not you want to describe that as monstrous behavior or not is up to you, I guess.
Nothing I've read says he was communist. Only that he hated the GOP and espoused Keynesian economic ideas.
cnn.com/2013/12/14/us/colorado-school-gunman-karl-pierson/?c=&page=2
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=250900434
cbsnews.com/news/sheriff-colorado-gunman-entered-school-heavily-armed-intending-to-harm-many/
And, of course, the right-wing blogosphere is on this like a fat kid on cake...I don't recommend a google search.
- John Stuart Mill
Yet "he was left wing!" is going to be what we hear from the conservative blogosphere. Not because it was relevant, but because they think this is a victory for their side. It's sickening to me.
I don't trust what any american I don't know calls "communist-leaning belief". They all Obama a communist.
If his beliefs put him in conflict with the people around him, they may be conservative enough that progressive liberalism is what they call "communism".
Like a little something like facts and common sense would ever get in the way of media sensationalism.
Well, yes...both sides do it whenever a bad actor espouses an opposing political view. Hell, @Trace very well may owe us a testicle after his attempt to blame this on the Right earlier in the thread.
- John Stuart Mill
Now, if a part of an ideology does cause terrible things then I take issue with the ideology itself, but that clearly isn't what happened in this instance.
I really dislike the 'crazies gonna crazy' sentiment. It suggests that all violent crime is perpetrated solely by clinical psychopaths & comes from some Other force; that violence in society is not only incomprehensible, but that we shouldn't even try to understand how it happens.
Obviously it's stupid to attribute a blanket political ideology to violent crime or to suppose that there is some criminal behavior bomb fuse waiting to be discovered, but 'crazy' isn't even an appropriate label to begin with, and I think it's a very worthwhile pursuit to try and find out what environmental factors contribute towards violent behavior.
But it's also a complete cop out to just throw our collective hands in the air whenever something like this happens and shout "he was crazy, nothing to see here!" like human behavior is somehow completely inscrutable to us. This kid grew up in a society (America) where we really like the idea of solving our issues with violence, specifically gun violence. So many of our heroic figures and cultural role models carry guns and use them rather liberally. Hell, I shot some (virtual) dudes from my couch just this morning and was given a (virtual) trophy for it. It felt great! To assume that those images and ideas, combined with access to firearms, didn't contribute here doesn't make any sense.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
What's good for the gun-control goose is good for the free-market gander I guess?
Liberals don't get to be outraged about this aspect, especially considering the liberal outrage about how ineffective they were at political success on the back of the last couple of incidents.
Not helping your case much to argue that bog-standard progressive liberalism is what motivated him.
If "right wing, anti-government type" isn't a reasonable point of conversation about a shooter, as we've been told time and time that it isn't, then "teenage conceptual communist" shouldn't be either.
Let's see how that plays out.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.