@SSaint They aren't saying extrinsic rewards are bad, and they aren't purely talking about skinner boxes. They are talking about what the value is in particular aspects of the game, which is entirely determined by the player.
For instance, people generally don't play WoW for the combat, they play for the awesome gear. Others DO play for the combat; usually PVP or interesting dungeon fights. The point is to determine what you value in a game and decide if everything you don't value is worth that end result. If you don't like the combat, was all the combat you had to do for what you want worth it?
Using another of the examples from the video, in Bayonetta most would say the combat is the exciting part. For others, the spectacle of the cinematics or even the achievements are what they are after. That is your intrinsic reward. The extrinsic reward would likely be the training time required to make the combat truly awesome, the difficulty of the challenges and, depending on who you ask, the storyline. Now, weigh the value of your rewards and decide whether one is worth the other.
Ultimately this is the players decision, but it should also be considered by designers. The former so that they simply gain more enjoyment from the games that they play and the latter so that more games are made with intrinsic value in mind when being designed.
It's worth noting that an activity can be intrinsically AND extrinsically rewarding at the same time; there's not some duality where everything is one or the other (or occasionally neither, if a game really isn't good). To use just about any rhythm game as an example, the music is fun, the act of keeping rhythm is a fun challenge, both intrinsic rewards, and the prospect of a high score is an extrinsic reward, all for the exact same moments, the exact same activity. It seems to me that when you're achieving both is when you're really getting a game right at it's basest level.
It's worth noting that an activity can be intrinsically AND extrinsically rewarding at the same time; there's not some duality where everything is one or the other (or occasionally neither, if a game really isn't good). To use just about any rhythm game as an example, the music is fun, the act of keeping rhythm is a fun challenge, both intrinsic rewards, and the prospect of a high score is an extrinsic reward, all for the exact same moments, the exact same activity. It seems to me that when you're achieving both is when you're really getting a game right at it's basest level.
This was ironic. I loved the combat in Final Fantasy 7. I remember feeling really disconnected from the actual story. I didn't start caring about the plot until the part where you left the Midgar. Even after that I just lived for that combat and the materia. I also used to love the grind in WoW until they pulled that reputation nonsense with Pandaria. There is nothing more furious than being maxed out on points but not being able to buy anything because I haven't done the THOUSANDS of quests required to honored or better reputation with the Celestial Leaf Society or wtf ever.
I honestly think you are fooling yourself a little bit. FF7 had a lot going for it, it terms of Narrative and Spectacle that just had never been seen before in games. The combat is actually pretty simplistic and easy even compared to other Final Fantasy games. Hell, just Compare 7 to XIII. Mechanically, XIII is a far superior game. At least, in Combat. It's also a steaming pile of dookie compared to FF7. Why? Making the combat fun and making the narrative a Slog completely ruined Final Fantasy forever for the vast majority of us. We marveled at exploring this vast, interesting, *lived in* world square made for us. Full of people who were living their lives completely independently of the heroes. Who weren't even particularly heroic.
FF7 is such a strange little beast. If you really start to examine *why* it has such a strong narrative, you will find so many cool things hidden in the corners. You will learn a lot about Narrative structure in gaming that honestly was probably an accident at the time, that went over the heads of most fans of the series. The fans knew the game was hot shit, they just never articulated it correctly. Square listened to the fans, and regurgitated the monstrosity that is FF XIII.
Well, you do have to consider what causes something to be intrinsically rewarding. Skinner was not unaware of this issue. He knew that when applying his research to humans, you couldn't keep people in skinner boxes. So he focused a lot on weening people off of contrived reinforcers and moving them onto reinforcers that "naturally" occur as a consequence of the behavior. Skinner believed that things can become "intrinsically" rewarding/reinforcing when they've been paired with many times with many different kinds of reinforcements.
Have to disagree with Final Fantasy's combat not being intrinsically rewarding. Sure, grinding can be a problem in certain titles, but I *like* turn-based RPG combat. There have been some RPGs with awful stories and characters but decent battle systems that I've had fun with.
I Have to disagree with Final Fantasy's combat not being intrinsically rewarding.
Yep, there were some amazing spell and effect chains you could do with FF7 linked materia slots. The strategics of the battle system in FF7 was as big of a source of reward for me as the story or full motion video. If you never linked "cover" to cloud to get him to protect the other characters, and give him counter, and added effect materia, etc, so that your strongest character can protect the weaker ones and have extra automatic attacks each time an enemy attacks...
...Or cast reflect on the enemies AND yourself then lightning all on the enemies to get 9x lightning damage as the forks reflect back and forth, or used such a thing with elemental damage absorption to heal your whole party...
Then you missed 90% of FF7's combat, and you should feel bad about your statements, then play it again.
Edit: Kind of had to take anything they say seriously if they don't even know what they're talking about... o_O
zegota and vortexcortex, you both seem to have missed the part where he said "For ME, I play through the fights in Final Fantasy 7 in order to get access to more of the story." He's providing his own opinion there and not saying it's universally true for everyone. The same is true of what he says about Kingdom Hearts even though he doesn't get that specific about it being his opinion.
He never said it was shallow or pointless, he just said he personally didn't find it rewarding. I don't see why that's a bad thing, or means that they "don't know what they're talking about."
This makes me think... I've been playing Fire Emblem Awakening recently, and I LOVE IT! I want to keep playing it all the time. I don't play RPGs though... Except for Pokemon, and I only play that because I was so into it when I was younger. I don't like RPGs though; for the most part I find them incredibly boring and stupid. The drawing you had in the video of the guy swinging the sword that hits the enemy in the head and it just says "numbers" summed it up so well. Anyway, I don't even enjoy Pokemon all that much. What you said about playing Final Fantasy sparked a thought in me. I feel like you would know better and I really, really want to hear your opinion actually, but I think that the difference between why I don't really enjoy Pokemon but love Fire Emblem is because of their rewards. Ha ha, and I don't mean you would know better about why I like one game over the other, I mean you might better understand whether one game is intrinsically rewarding or not. Maybe you wouldn't say that Fire Emblem is intrinsically rewarding though, but I really think it is.
Let me explain: In Pokemon I hate, hate, hate walking down each route or road because it is littered with random and arbitrary trainers that are all going to stop me - every single one! - and make me battle their Pokemon. And I don't even have a choice! Like, I can't walk past them and choose not to fight them, the game makes me beat them before I can move on to the next battle/gym leader/final four/whatever I'm trying to get to. And when I play Pokemon I often study the map really hard to see if there is any way I can avoid battling trainers. Annoying! With Fire Emblem though I've just really been enjoying the act of playing it itself. I've read the analogy else where that it's like a glorified game of chess. I totally agree. Just doing good at the game satisfies me, ya know? Being able to clear a particularly hard map without loosing a character just feels good. In Pokemon I've never ran into a trainer and really had fun battling that particular trainer; it's really just about getting my Pokemon the experience they need to level-up so I can go beat the next gym leader or whatever. And even at each gym leader it's almost like I'm only there just to get more experience. Pokemon is just nothing but a grind-house of a game. It's annoying and mostly not very fun. The whole game is just one long path of trainer after trainer after trainer to just beat in a row and all you're doing is making your Pokemon stronger and that's it. Fire Emblem feels different to me. I don't set out one single character and tell them "attack like this," I move my characters around to attack or avoid my enemies, and I move my characters in the order I choose and tell them to attack in the order I choose too. I even get to choose who they attack and, again, in what order I would like them to attack. I still get to tell them how to attack even! Plus all the added levels of immersion that come with deciding what characters are getting married. Each battle in Fire Emblem feels like it's all part of the story too and not just utterly arbitrary nonsense (even when it's not very important to the story), unlike getting cornered by annoying trainer on the road in Pokemon where it makes absolutely zero difference who they are and why they're there. Pokemon, from my perspective, is pretty much nothing but a numbers game straight though. Boring.
Let me explain: In Pokemon I hate, hate, hate walking down each route or road because it is littered with random and arbitrary trainers that are all going to stop me - every single one! - and make me battle their Pokemon. And I don't even have a choice! Like, I can't walk past them and choose not to fight them, the game makes me beat them before I can move on to the next battle/gym leader/final four/whatever I'm trying to get to. And when I play Pokemon I often study the map really hard to see if there is any way I can avoid battling trainers. Annoying! With Fire Emblem though I've just really been enjoying the act of playing it itself. I've read the analogy else where that it's like a glorified game of chess. I totally agree. Just doing good at the game satisfies me, ya know? Being able to clear a particularly hard map without loosing a character just feels good. In Pokemon I've never ran into a trainer and really had fun battling that particular trainer; it's really just about getting my Pokemon the experience they need to level-up so I can go beat the next gym leader or whatever. And even at each gym leader it's almost like I'm only there just to get more experience. Pokemon is just nothing but a grind-house of a game. It's annoying and mostly not very fun. The whole game is just one long path of trainer after trainer after trainer to just beat in a row and all you're doing is making your Pokemon stronger and that's it. Fire Emblem feels different to me. I don't set out one single character and tell them "attack like this," I move my characters around to attack or avoid my enemies, and I move my characters in the order I choose and tell them to attack in the order I choose too. I even get to choose who they attack and, again, in what order I would like them to attack. I still get to tell them how to attack even! Plus all the added levels of immersion that come with deciding what characters are getting married. Each battle in Fire Emblem feels like it's all part of the story too and not just utterly arbitrary nonsense (even when it's not very important to the story), unlike getting cornered by annoying trainer on the road in Pokemon where it makes absolutely zero difference who they are and why they're there. Pokemon, from my perspective, is pretty much nothing but a numbers game straight though. Boring.
I have played Runescape for years now, (though I quit after the wheel and have sorta rejoined with old-scape). I really enjoy it, I like mining and smithing so I can make stuff. That feeling to know that when you bank ores your going to later smith then and bring that to market is why I play the game. My brother also plays, and at times he even pays me to play on his accounts(multi-logging(not bot-ing or against the rules)) and I use my account too while doing it, but since I'm on his time, he gets the ores I mine. Not having that iron ore being mine turned the action I did not mind doing before into work, hard work. That reason to play was removed and the grinding was left, and let me tell you, grinding is not fun. I ended up basically quitting my job with him because it was work, and not worth the money even though I was getting paid to play a video game.
Ha, I love how EC rags on FF7s combat system, but flaunts Kingdom Hearts as an engaging system when quite frankly I liked the opposite style. For me turn based is much more precise and rids of the constant stun locking you would have in a game like Monster Hunter for example. However I typically put up with this style combat system as battles are typically MUCH more intense and that reward if a battle is succesful I get a rush of dopemine that is unlike any other.
I know that's just his opinion and *gasp* there are multiple ones on the internet, but I thought i'd throw in my two cents here.
I personally love trainer battles in Pokémon, but recent games have become more complex about trainers you can avoid. The only ones where you have to fight every single trainer in the area are the villainous teams, and the reason for that is obvious.
Besides, the majority of people play Pokémon for the multiplayer. I can't get enough of it. Call it a numbers game, but I really love seeing if I can outguess and outcalculate my opponents.
XIII--man...I love every part of that game, haha. In fact, I love every part of just about every game I play. But then I usually only end up playing like, 3 games a generation (hellz, I have only played 1.5 games in PS3 generation so far). So yeah, I get a whole lot of time to really look through games before I buy because I always enter the generation so damn late, so I always end up buying good games.
Posts
For instance, people generally don't play WoW for the combat, they play for the awesome gear. Others DO play for the combat; usually PVP or interesting dungeon fights. The point is to determine what you value in a game and decide if everything you don't value is worth that end result. If you don't like the combat, was all the combat you had to do for what you want worth it?
Using another of the examples from the video, in Bayonetta most would say the combat is the exciting part. For others, the spectacle of the cinematics or even the achievements are what they are after. That is your intrinsic reward. The extrinsic reward would likely be the training time required to make the combat truly awesome, the difficulty of the challenges and, depending on who you ask, the storyline. Now, weigh the value of your rewards and decide whether one is worth the other.
Ultimately this is the players decision, but it should also be considered by designers. The former so that they simply gain more enjoyment from the games that they play and the latter so that more games are made with intrinsic value in mind when being designed.
Thanks for five seasons of Extra Credits. Looking forward to the continued development of season six.
I honestly think you are fooling yourself a little bit. FF7 had a lot going for it, it terms of Narrative and Spectacle that just had never been seen before in games. The combat is actually pretty simplistic and easy even compared to other Final Fantasy games. Hell, just Compare 7 to XIII. Mechanically, XIII is a far superior game. At least, in Combat. It's also a steaming pile of dookie compared to FF7. Why? Making the combat fun and making the narrative a Slog completely ruined Final Fantasy forever for the vast majority of us. We marveled at exploring this vast, interesting, *lived in* world square made for us. Full of people who were living their lives completely independently of the heroes. Who weren't even particularly heroic.
FF7 is such a strange little beast. If you really start to examine *why* it has such a strong narrative, you will find so many cool things hidden in the corners. You will learn a lot about Narrative structure in gaming that honestly was probably an accident at the time, that went over the heads of most fans of the series. The fans knew the game was hot shit, they just never articulated it correctly. Square listened to the fans, and regurgitated the monstrosity that is FF XIII.
...Or cast reflect on the enemies AND yourself then lightning all on the enemies to get 9x lightning damage as the forks reflect back and forth, or used such a thing with elemental damage absorption to heal your whole party...
Then you missed 90% of FF7's combat, and you should feel bad about your statements, then play it again.
Edit: Kind of had to take anything they say seriously if they don't even know what they're talking about... o_O
He never said it was shallow or pointless, he just said he personally didn't find it rewarding. I don't see why that's a bad thing, or means that they "don't know what they're talking about."
I know that's just his opinion and *gasp* there are multiple ones on the internet, but I thought i'd throw in my two cents here.
Besides, the majority of people play Pokémon for the multiplayer. I can't get enough of it. Call it a numbers game, but I really love seeing if I can outguess and outcalculate my opponents.
XIII--man...I love every part of that game, haha. In fact, I love every part of just about every game I play. But then I usually only end up playing like, 3 games a generation (hellz, I have only played 1.5 games in PS3 generation so far). So yeah, I get a whole lot of time to really look through games before I buy because I always enter the generation so damn late, so I always end up buying good games.