A weak-willed, non-calling, not-quite-sales employee?

ANTVGM64 · January 2014

Howdy, so a few months ago I posted regarding a job I was interviewing for that was a 'personality' kind of job, not a 'resume' kind of job. The good news! I got that job! The bad news: It's not what I thought.

The job is a little...interesting, essentially I'm 'technically' in charge of managing a website, which is great. However I'm being tasked with making sales calls for a different company the fellah owns, with the risk of "If we can't get a sale we're all out of jobs' . Essentially I'm calling various people with a very tennuous lead, and the pressure is to on to convince these peoples to buy this service we're offering. I hate this so much I'm actively avoiding it. Like hardcore avoiding it. Anxiety, walking around putting it off, etc. I.hate.doing.this.

But because I was 'promoted' (the company is essentially two people), and I'm now being paid full time hours (I now have two full time jobs), I feel obligated. I had previously volunteered to make a bunch of 'verify phone' style calls, which was a little easier and a little less stressful.

Anyway, I want to e-mail my boss and say "I'll happily take a reduction in hours if I don't have to do this extra, not-related-to-website-thing I really like" but worry that by saying that I will therefore be the scape goat for when the company can't make a sale and no one has jobs.

So...do I man up and make sales calls despite my last sales job being in 2004 working retail at Saples, or what?

bowen · January 2014

This is more of a question of what you want and what you're willing to do.

The biggest question I'd ask is, are you 100% willing to walk away from this job? If yes, the ball is in your court to make demands.

DevoutlyApathetic · January 2014

Have you ever made a sale there? Typically if you hate doing sales you're going to be really bad at sales. I'd approach it more from a "I'm horrible at this, you are probably better off having nobody call then me who is horrible at this."

ANTVGM64 · January 2014

Yeah that was my plan. I've never sold anything ever, I suck at it, and I'm a nice guy and personable on the phone, but selling a product I don't know very well just drives me insane.

bowen · January 2014

Yeah straight up what Devoutly is saying is how I'd approach this. It's more amicable than trying to reduce your hours and all that.

Cold call sales are the worst and almost everyone hates dealing with people who do it.

lewsiv · January 2014

It sounds like you have a case of call reluctance. I have never met a salesperson who did not have this at one point or another. In my experience, once you make one call making the next becomes easier.

As a sales person, I would say your bigger issue is that you are being asked to sell a product you don't know. That stinks. Usually the knowledge that I know more about my product than the person on the other side of the call gives me the confidence to make cold calls. The good news is that if you are a nice guy and good on the phone that can be 50% of the battle. People like buying from friendly people trying to help them as opposed to a pushy, smarmy sales person.

My advice would be to try it. Once you have success making a sale you might find you like it.

Thundyrkatz · January 2014

People hate cold calling because of the fear of rejection. You feel like your harassing these people, its going to be an unpleasant interaction, and in the end they are going to maybe same some unflattering things and hang up on you, and now you just wasted both of your time.

The problem is, if you feel this way your probably going to be correct.

However, there is hope. Assuming the product your selling is not a scam, and is in fact a thing that is worth spending money on. Then you are actually doing these people a service. You are letting them know that you have a way to make their jobs / lives easier in some way by using your product. Now, not everyone will be in the mood to deal with you right now, and you may yet get a lot of rejection. But that is not a reflection on you.

Darkewolfe · January 2014

It also sounds like this guy fully intended to put you on this job when he hired you. We all thought something was iffy about this deal when you originally talked about it.

I actually worked for one of these guys when I was in college. He was an entrepreneur sort, viewed all of his companies as just projects he was working on, and he'd routinely make people who'd been doing one thing (IT help desk support for software) do sales calls to sell magazines. (Most folks quit.)

That job isn't going to change. Figure out real quick whether you can do sales; if you can't you need to find another job. (I did the magazine sales for a summer, but the next summer when I was once again taken off managing technical editing efforts to do door to door sales calls I politely told the owner that I was going to find something else.)

Eat it You Nasty Pig. · January 2014

what portion of your job (i.e. hours) is devoted to making calls? If sales is a major part of your day to day the only real option is to walk away.

TannerMS · January 2014

Eat it You Nasty Pig. wrote: »

what portion of your job (i.e. hours) is devoted to making calls? If sales is a major part of your day to day the only real option is to walk away.

This might sound a little callous but getting used to it worked for me. I had awful cold call related anxiety when it suddenly became one of my duties but after I forced my way through it for a week I became much more comfortable.

Darkewolfe · January 2014

Yeah, that's true.

If you've done a job of cold calling and actually gotten used to it, you'll learn to conquer your social anxiety fears real quick.

ceres · January 2014

I would find a new job as soon as possible and quit this one the second I had it. It's not like you went in expecting that and it's harder than you thought. It's not the job that was advertised.

MichaelLC · January 2014

Agree with ceres.

Sorry, since it sounded like you were excited about this one.

Is there anyone else in charge besides the main dude? Does it seem strange he's using this company's resources - you - to work for his other company? Probably not worth pursuing, but seems odd from the way you described it.

ANTVGM64 · January 2014

Yeah it's a weird thing. I was essentially hired to do editing, writing, social media, and promotion for a website. Which is good. The company is literally three people, an 'arts' editor, the boss guy, me, and then data entry people. I like the work for the site, but I don't have all the tools available to me to really feel 'in command'. I.E I enter stuff into a spreadsheet and then that data is put into the website via some magic. if there's an error or something I can't fix it, I have to ask my boss to fix it, which is irksome but understandable.

So it's a lot of e-mails, a lot of calls, a lot of jumping between inboxes and checking after myself four or five times because anything I oopsie on I can't fix myself, and dealing with the fact I don't quite see the business model for the site AT ALL, I.E This company is being run out of the guy's front pocket.

So when he has me make calls to other places for other purposes, I understand, but somehow the entire fate of the company relying on my ability to 'sell' a wholly different product while the other people in that company are doing other things, is really high pressure and I don't think fair?

I love the money, but for whatever reason with two full times jobs I was just paralyzed this week, I couldn't look at the spreadsheet, make a phone call, or be brought to care about e-mail. I'd never been burnt out before, but I was this week *sound of balloon losing air*.

EggyToast · January 2014

The "if you don't sell something you're ruining the company" is a hallmark of shitty management. This is not your fault; this is your "boss" throwing spaghetti and hoping something in the company develops to create a product. Yes, if you sell something, it brings in money -- and when you think of it that way, it should hopefully make your additional responsibilities feel less stressful. If you don't convince someone else to fill up your boss's front pocket, then it's going to be empty.

Honestly, though, that should be your boss's job. He's the one who believes in the product, and if you're starting your own business, you need to be the one who feels passionate about it. That means you need to be the one who actually closes deals.

Perhaps your cold calls should be more focused on lead generation. Don't stress about "doing sales" but rather about determining the market and potential customers for this new business. Then pass them off to your boss if there's interest. Really, though, you need to be able to talk to your boss about how this is developing. Don't say "I have terrible anxiety and don't want to call people," but you can definitely say "these are all cold leads, and it's a waste of my time and your time to call unqualified leads. How do we find people who are actually interested in the company?"

And lead that up with "I understand that you're busy, but you have a much deeper understanding of our product/service and are thus naturally more passionate about it. Because I'm new, I'm at a disadvantage for these calls, especially since I don't have a sales background. Having me spearhead these calls is probably not in the company's best interest, although I'm happy to provide support and assistance on these calls."

That's if you want to attempt to salvage it, of course. If the boss freaks out or gets pissed, well, now you know it's really just a guy trying random things to see what may turn a profit.

Darlan · January 2014

I'm in a similar boat where my work has made some dealbreaker changes to business trip compensation (everyone likes paying to work, right? :rotate:) and my work load, but I'm thinking before I let my manager/supervisor know that I'm *that* bothered by it, I'm going to start sending out applications and get a feel for my options before I start a discussion that could potentially end with me without a paycheck until I can line up that backup job. I'd recommend the same, though of course you have a better feel for your boss's temperament and company environment than I do.

Dhalphir · January 2014

If you are willing to walk away from this job, then you have all the power in the world to change it. Go to the boss and tell him exactly what you want, whether that's more pay to compensate for the shitty extra responsibilites, the removal of the shitty responsibilities, or whatever. And if he doesn't give them to you, walk away and find something better.

There are very few problems that can't be solved in a job when you are willing to walk away. As long as you are genuinely willing to walk away. if you go in there ready to negotiate hard and let him talk you into staying with no change in duties, you're fucked for the rest of your time at that job. He will never take you seriously again.

Aldo · January 2014

@ANTVGM64 i would love to read about how this played out. This thread is filled with fantastic advice.

What kind of product are you trying to sell anyway? And do you think someone else would score more if they were cold calling folks? Im asking because sometimes small businesses are open to employees coming up with plans that the boss might not have thought of. I guess it kinda depends how crazy your boss is.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

Well, here's what went down:

1. I e-mail my boss saying I'd like to reduce my hours because due to my second shift schedule getting up at 9am every day to make sales calls on my non-tech-support job days is very, very, difficult. I can manage it for in person meetings but flipping my schedule around isn't a great idea.

2. I meet with my boss in person, he says he'll reduce my responsibilities, which is great. The responsibility he reduces is the one that I'm actually good at and am capable of completing during my weird hours. I still have to make sales calls.

3. Thursday and Friday I'm just exhausted and frustrated and completely derf it, I make a few, but now unsure of what specifically I'm supposed to do / check up on, I am quite...disinterested in the whole shebang.

4. He's also moving to Washington DC, which makes communicating a little trickier.

TL;DR - Didn't get a word in edge wise, Boss kept my pay the same, took away the part of the job I like, and told me to keep making sales calls.

>.<

I just wanna write for a living!

Aioua · February 2014

Did you tell him that you wanted the exact opposite of what happened?

Cause you kind of need to tell him that. Or just quit.

DevoutlyApathetic · February 2014

Unless you think you're in some kind of comedic Hugh Grant movie where hilarious miscommunication results in you eventually falling in love I would go and start your job hunt now.

Inquisitor77 · February 2014

The moment when he said he would take away the writing gig and have you focus on the sales job was the exact moment you should have said something. Regardless of his personality, it's pretty clear that you have an issue with communicating your opinion.

At this point I would strongly recommend you start looking for another job. In the interim, you have two choices: a) tough it out until you find something else, b) tell your boss you want to focus on the writing gig. If you do (b) and he refuses to let you go back to what you were originally hired to do, and you really, really can't stand to do the work (even if only for the paycheck until you find something else), then go ahead and put in your notice. But for all you know, he is fine with letting you do your original job and it's just your unwillingness to speak up that makes him think you're OK with how things are going.

Figgy · February 2014

So you went in there and asked for something entirely different, he obliged, and aren't happy he didn't do something you didn't ask for? You went at it passive aggressively instead of just telling him what you wanted.

You want to write for a living. You don't like making sales calls and aren't very good at it.

That is what you should have said. Start looking for a new job and stop hoping this one is going to magically morph into something you like.

DevoutlyApathetic · February 2014

ANTVGM64 wrote: »

Didn't get a word in edge wise

People seem to be ignoring this.

It doesn't happen by accident when you talk with your boss about a change in responsibilities. They are trying to do their job and steer you into what is best for the company. No matter what ANTVGM64 said, the Boss clearly had his own agenda to tick off and it didn't match what he wanted.

Sorry man.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

Aioua wrote: »

Did you tell him that you wanted the exact opposite of what happened?

Cause you kind of need to tell him that. Or just quit.

I didn't get a chance to say anything, he said, this is what you're doing, start doing it, and I'm paying you the same. So flabberghasted I was I didn't even think to speak up.

Davehead · February 2014

It's tough when you get a job that you think is going to be perfect for you, one you'll actually enjoy going to, only to find out that the reality of it is far different from what you thought it would be, or even what you were told it would be. Sadly, though, it's very rare that situations like this end with the employee back where they were.

From where I'm sitting, your boss said nothing about the sales part of this job being a temporary thing - quite the opposite, he took away the things you were hired to do so that you could focus on the sales! That says to me that what he really wants right now is a salesperson, and that is neither the job you signed up for nor one you seem to be comfortable with.

It sounds like it's time to update your resume and start looking again. Remind yourself that while the job you were hired for was one you really wanted, it's not the job you're doing now, nor one you will be likely to do again anytime soon at this company.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

Yeah it's kind of a bummer - I made a bunch of calls but it certainly wasn't like, nearly as many as I assume would be considering fruitful, but it's just like...I spent 40 hours a week on the phone, waiting for the phone, talking to people on the phone, calling people on the phone...Which I'm incredibly greatful for, the job I have now, the tech job, has been wonderful to me, more-or-less, but it's...incredibly frustrating to have a job that was at least a little tiny bit full-fulling creatively turn into something that makes me avoidant and such.

Inquisitor77 · February 2014

No offense to other folks in this thread, but I find it hard to believe that you can have a conversation with someone and literally not be able to speak, unless that person is being incredibly rude and continuing to speak over you. It's perfectly acceptable to interrupt someone politely when they are talking, especially if you need to make a point that is completely counter to what they are saying.

"Hi Jim, thanks for meeting with me."
"No problem Bob! Let's go over your job role like you asked. Here is what I need you to do for the next two weeks, I need you to make some calls to these folks and make sure that they understand the features related to the blah with the blah and you really can't be clear enough and I know it can be hard but listen there are times when you have to blah and this project won't blah with the blah-"
"Excuse me, Jim?"
"...really, really focus on this because I want you to pay attention we have only two weeks to blah with-"
"Jim? Jim! EXCUSE ME? JIM?"
"...our sales are really going to drive-"
"JIM, EXCUSE ME BUT I NEED TO INTERRUPT YOU CAN I PLEASE SAY SOMETHING?"

See where I'm going with this? At some point Jim either needs to shut up and let Bob say his piece, or it becomes perfectly socially acceptable for Bob to literally say, "Jim, I quit" and hang up on him. If Jim literally says something like, "Bob you aren't allowed to talk, I'm the boss, you need to shut up, suck it up, and listen", then that's really all you need to hear to either quit on the spot or cruise a few paychecks while you find a new job.

DivideByZero · February 2014

Just an FYI, some people have a tough time asserting themselves to authority figures, especially when they're new on the job!

DevoutlyApathetic · February 2014

Inquisitor77 wrote: »

No offense to other folks in this thread, but I find it hard to believe that you can have a conversation with someone and literally not be able to speak, unless that person is being incredibly rude and continuing to speak over you. It's perfectly acceptable to interrupt someone politely when they are talking, especially if you need to make a point that is completely counter to what they are saying.

"Hi Jim, thanks for meeting with me."
"No problem Bob! Let's go over your job role like you asked. Here is what I need you to do for the next two weeks, I need you to make some calls to these folks and make sure that they understand the features related to the blah with the blah and you really can't be clear enough and I know it can be hard but listen there are times when you have to blah and this project won't blah with the blah-"
"Excuse me, Jim?"
"...really, really focus on this because I want you to pay attention we have only two weeks to blah with-"
"Jim? Jim! EXCUSE ME? JIM?"
"...our sales are really going to drive-"
"JIM, EXCUSE ME BUT I NEED TO INTERRUPT YOU CAN I PLEASE SAY SOMETHING?"

See where I'm going with this? At some point Jim either needs to shut up and let Bob say his piece, or it becomes perfectly socially acceptable for Bob to literally say, "Jim, I quit" and hang up on him. If Jim literally says something like, "Bob you aren't allowed to talk, I'm the boss, you need to shut up, suck it up, and listen", then that's really all you need to hear to either quit on the spot or cruise a few paychecks while you find a new job.

You've gotten to the point we were all at when he said he couldn't get a word in edgewise. The subtext of such a conversation is that the boss doesn't really want to address his concerns and that he should likely find a new job (or resign himself to dissatisfaction.) Really that message should be crystal clear at the CAPS PHASE OF CONVERSATION.

It's not that he couldn't shout at the top of his lungs, the point is if you have to do that it won't do any good in the long run (and would likely lead to him not having any job during his job hunt.)

Darkewolfe · February 2014

The main thing that's clear here is he needs some money to keep running his company.

To get that money, he plans to use sales.

As much as you want to write, he's perfectly willing to not get that side of things done until he's able to drum up some sales.

If you don't want to be a sales guy, you need to find another job.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

I think I do. It just doesn't make any sense to me as to why they're want ME to do the sales?

Enc · February 2014

I'd guess because there are 2 or so people in the company and the administrator doesn't want to do sales either, leaving you being the sole and thus lowest man on the totem pole?

ArbitraryDescriptor · February 2014

ANTVGM64 wrote: »

I think I do. It just doesn't make any sense to me as to why they want ME to do the sales?

Without understanding what you're selling or the overall business model, I imagine it's one of five things:

1. He doesn't, and you just fired the starting pistol on a secret race to see whether you can find a new job before he finds your replacement.

2. He regrets hiring a writer when they still need to get their sales up, but he doesn't have time to go through the hiring process again.

3. He only needs a small fixed number of contracts secured, after which they will be solvent / at fulfilment capacity and he'll need his writer back.

4. He is incompetent and thinks anyone can do sales, thus replacing you would be a waste of effort.

5. Some complicated con/tax dodge which I can't even begin to guess at. But as long as your paychecks clear, you're probably not the mark.

E: It's probably 1 and you should start running. If it's anything but 3, your job outlook still isn't that great.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

I think it's 3, with a combination of what ENC said. The company is him, another guy, and I guess technically me. But the idea that the entire solvency of the company relies on the ONE person who A) started a little over two months ago, and

has a high voice that inspires confidence in literally no-one (see below), grinds me gears, why can't *YOU* make calls while I do the thing I'm actually good at.

For details, essentially he wants me calling a variety of companies around the country trying to sell a customizable app. It's a cool app and a good idea, but calling up these companies and trying to charm my way in, when I sound like, well (see below) doesn't make any sense to me.

CGI ruined Thomas The Tank Engine

Darkewolfe · February 2014

When I was in a very, very similar situation it was somewhere between number 3 and 4.

Egotistical guys for whom entrepreneurship and salesmanship come simple sometimes don't realize that skill set is tough for most people. When it's a really small company and they need some sales, they just send everyone out with the order to go find some money.

That's exactly what my guy did. I was tech support and tech writing, but he needed more money to stay solvent so I got stuck cold call telemarketing magazines for a month till our tech contract came back.

Aioua · February 2014

ANTVGM64 wrote: »

I think it's 3, with a combination of what ENC said. The company is him, another guy, and I guess technically me. But the idea that the entire solvency of the company relies on the ONE person who A) started a little over two months ago, and has a high voice that inspires confidence in literally no-one (see below), grinds me gears, why can't *YOU* make calls while I do the thing I'm actually good at.

For details, essentially he wants me calling a variety of companies around the country trying to sell a customizable app. It's a cool app and a good idea, but calling up these companies and trying to charm my way in, when I sound like, well (see below) doesn't make any sense to me.

CGI ruined Thomas The Tank Engine

If it is three I'd still get out of there. When your company is a 3-man shop the owner should be the sales guy. If he can't rep his own product then none of this is going anywhere.

ANTVGM64 · February 2014

I'm about to boom goes the dynamite with the e-mail below. Figured I'd give an update. And yes, I do reference Far Lands or Bust in a round-a-bout way at the end.

Howdy, I got your messages but I've been at work for the last two days and service on my phone continues to be spotty. Below are some of the things I wanted to communicate the last time we met in person but I didn't get a chance too because we decided to skip the "let me explain myself" portion of the conversation.

1. Sales Calls - I think I did more of these than you think I did, All the blue cells are places I called this week, though there may be 4-5 that I did that I forgot to code blue.

I maintain I am *not* the person you want doing this.

I spend 40 hours a week on the phone calling people, being called, working my way through level upon level of computer ineptitude as my full-time job. Doing MORE phone work isn't something I'm particularly keen on, nor am I the most confident salesperson. I know you said it's good to change my cadence and be enthusiastic about the product - which I am, but unfortunately that's far easier said than done and I tend to lose track my thoughts pretty easily on the phone, even after repetition - it's just how I am, I suppose.

2. Scheduling - One of the things I wanted to explain at our last meeting that I didn't get a chance too after we skipped the "I explain myself and feel better" part of the explanation, is that, I work odd hours. I'm up until past midnight Monday and Tuesday and leave for work at 1pm.

Thus getting up at 9am or later the day after 40 hours of 2nd shift work is tricky.

I was able to manage it when we met in person on Wednesdays, but around 4pm I'm be dead to the world, completely drained. Similarly Thursday and Friday are tricky because I have things like appointments, have to put my car in the garage, and so on. You get full time hours, they just tend to skew toward my normal schedule which after 7 years tends to hit it's productive peak around 8/9pm.

3. <Redacted>
For the couple of weeks I was able to focus exclusively on <Redacted>, I think you'd see I was pretty on top of things and got a lot of stuff done on time because I could do it when I was rested and had energy, namely in the evenings where there aren't a lot of distractions - Staying up on a Wednesday night to fill in tweets and summaries and send e-mails is something I enjoy and am good at.

I have pages of ideas for <redacted>, including monteization strategies, but because I've been sort of pulled in a couple of different directions it's been very, very, difficult to get a grasp on everything enough to execute on NEW ideas.

Now, the thing I enjoyed and enthused me about this gig in the first place, namely writing and outreach and promotion, is out of my hands because I'm bad at a thing I never signed up for.

Someone at NASA once said "If it energizes you, it's right, and if it drains you, it's wrong," The stuff I *was* doing? Tweets / summaries / outreach / research / promotion / giveaways / energized me. *that* I liked. Making the one-off phone calls to verify good phone / bad phone was simple and easy enough to do.

Phone calls with the pressure to 'make a sale' with the fate of *YOUR* company riding on it, drain me and have given me about two straight weeks worth of pretty killer migraines.

So what can I do to make it so you, the person with knowledge, phone skill, and personality for such calls can make them? Adding things into spreadsheets? E-mails? proof reading other people's content? I'm up for anything.

Darkewolfe · February 2014

That's certainly not the e-mail I'd send, though I'm glad you're getting your thoughts out.

There's some whining in it, which I never find productive when speaking to or from a manager.

TheBigEasy · February 2014

Only send that email if you are fully aware and prepared for the answer to be "You're fired".

If getting fired is of no concern to you, send it. Otherwise - just don't.

Darkewolfe · February 2014

Yeah. I came back and read it again.

That e-mail is not productive. Even considering you're ok with losing your job, you haven't accomplished anything with that text.

What are your main points?

1. You were hired for and provide great value in technical writing. You should discuss the job duties you do well, why you do them well and why it's of value for him to keep having you do them.

2. You don't feel that you'll provide the right value as a sales person. The right way to talk about this is not to talk about your personal life, how tired you are from your other job, or any of that. All of that is COMPLETELY inappropriate to this communication. If you're too tired from your other job, why are you working for me? That's exactly the response I'd have. Go ahead and quit and I'll find someone who wants to work here, whether they want to write or make sales calls.

And that's it, I think. There's a lot of superfluous stuff.

To be honest, though, there's no real point. He wants you to do sales calls, you don't want to do sales calls. He's either going to fire you or you'll quit.

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