That mainly happened to Batgirl (and the Question).
All the Green Lanterns and Robins got to stay, Jaime was still Blue Beetle, Kate Kane was still Batwoman, etc. A lot of the others that got erased weren't even replaced with an older version, they're just gone. Except Wally West, but he was replaced before New 52 happened, and is apparently coming back anyways.
Also I was thinking more about the Superman cast (Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Lois, etc.) when I said that. These characters aren't legacy characters that have taken over for the prior version, they're alternate versions entirely.
Though now that I think about it, I guess that situation basically did already happen and lead to our current situation, it's just it was in the years leading up to the New 52 with Geoff Johns bringing back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and sidelining their replacements. Even the "Barbara Gordon is the real Batgirl and we're going to regress her character twenty years and tell the handicapped community to piss off in order to get her back!" bullshit was something they were working at getting done for the better part of a decade before it was finally allowed to happen (earliest pitches involving a Lazarus Pit if I remember right).
Of course, continuing that trend Hal, Barry, and Barbara were not the original people to use their respective superhero identities, they were just the ones who were when much of the current staff got into comics. However, people that got into comics in the last twenty years were likely to have grown up with Kyle, Wally, and Cassandra/Steph and it'll be curious to see what happens when the current DC staff is replaced by new blood who may have different views on the "real" versions of characters (both as in who they are, such as Superman, and who should be under the mask, such as Green Lantern/Flash/Batgirl). Though it's a bit more muddied now since in those three cases the 70s versions are once again the versions that people who are just now getting into comics will be growing up with, so it may end up being rather cyclical.
Ugh. I just now envisioned the dark future where in a few decades the new editorial staff wants to go back to how "great" the New 52 was and bring back a Joker with his face cut off and Deadpool-Harley and all that.
Of course, continuing that trend Hal, Barry, and Barbara were not the original people to use their respective superhero identities, they were just the ones who were when much of the current staff got into comics. However, people that got into comics in the last twenty years were likely to have grown up with Kyle, Wally, and Cassandra/Steph and it'll be curious to see what happens when the current DC staff is replaced by new blood who may have different views on the "real" versions of characters (both as in who they are, such as Superman, and who should be under the mask, such as Green Lantern/Flash/Batgirl). Though it's a bit more muddied now since in those three cases the 70s versions are once again the versions that people who are just now getting into comics will be growing up with, so it may end up being rather cyclical.
That's what I'm waiting for.
That's my time in the sun. (Got into DC with Zero Hour)
@Lars, remember that we're in a stage where Dan Didio and DC are aiming for a middle-aged fanbase. Hopefully there won't be more than a handful of kids entering the market to this garbage.
Also, it's funny how you talked about Geoff Johns coming in and bringing back the Silver Age versions of all of these characters. I think, like you said, some of that continued into the New 52, but it also got really wonky and off balance because they just didn't do it very well. When you talk about a character like Superman being not himself in the new 52, and eventually being returned to his core, I think that's why Greg Pak was brought onto action, and I'm betting that's why Johns is being brought onto the regular Superman title that hasn't been able to carry water at all since the relaunch (and in fairness, for quite some time before then). Geoff Johns is pretty much being brought in because DC tried to copy his style and concepts through committee, and failed miserably.
And while Johns tries to fix Superman, I think we're going to see more off-kilter versions legacy characters as they begin to surface in the New 52 over the next year, probably all dramatically different in character, context and appearance from their prior lives.
So the question becomes, who will fix all the teams and characters that have lost their momentum? If the rumor is true and Johns is being limited to two titles at a time, DC's closest writers in terms of status and acclaim are Lemire and Snyder. But Snyder is likely too busy between coordinating the Bat-titles and his creator-owned stuff, and in spite of some great work, Lemire has been at DC for 4 or 5 years now and still hasn't really exploded to AAA status yet.
For example, they're going to need a big, newer name to relaunch Teen Titans. Lemire would be a rational choice on the back of his Green Arrow, but he's arguably busier than Snyder with a weekly, two monthlies, and creator-owned stuff. There's literally no one left at DC to launch a guaranteed hit title. And I don't think they have the apparatus anymore to "make" a newer writer into a success.
They're boned.
On that note, given how apathetic and burnt out we all are on this reboot, who has the energy to make a new OP?
I wonder if WB actually cares about DC. Although, I doubt that interference by WB execs would help.
Rumor has it that if this reboot doesn't perform WB is going to kill the comics production almost altogether.
I wouldn't be opposed (even if I don't buy singles anymore) to DC handing over Teen Titans to Simone, since she can work them into her stuff with The Movement and Batgirl. Though for all I know she might be trying to get away from DC with all her Indie projects, like the Tomb Raider and Red Sonja comics.
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
If a dirty trade-waiter made the OP would that be awful
(I kind of love making OPs)
Also, a weird thought: I wonder if they'll put Simone on Teen Titans. I know The Movement is nowhere near the top of the charts but it seems like the kind of thing that could happen.
DC needs to buyout Soule into an exclusive and give Pak more work. The two of them could be AAA writers for DC and guide the universe to a really fun place.
So I don't read as many DC comics but it does seem like the company is missing, for lack of better words "AAA" talent. I can think of tons at marvel off the top of my head, but with DC I get Snyder and Johns and then no one else.
So I don't read as many DC comics but it does seem like the company is missing, for lack of better words "AAA" talent. I can think of tons at marvel off the top of my head, but with DC I get Snyder and Johns and then no one else.
Pak is (and has been) absolutely killing it. That more people don't love him is mystifying to me.
Oh I being loving Pak's current run on Action comics, as he is doing a great job of mixing the Superman I read for years with his 52 version. I just don't think he's being profiled as much as he is, which is why he escaped my mind.
Pak is a fantastic writer, his Hulk run is beloved for a reason, but he doesn't get really big high profile gigs. He's like a really talented actor that always gets supportingroles. Superman/Batman started out strong but was hamstrung by terrible Brett Booth art and Action Comics is great but not a tentpole of the DCU and is mostly doing its own thing.
Pak is a fantastic writer, his Hulk run is beloved for a reason, but he doesn't get really big high profile gigs. He's like a really talented actor that always gets supportingroles. Superman/Batman started out strong but was hamstrung by terrible Brett Booth art and Action Comics is great but not a tentpole of the DCU and is mostly doing its own thing.
Is Pak DC exclusive? If not, they should try to lock him down before he decides to jump ship.
As to why Pak isn't a bigger name, I think part of the reason is that he's never done any creator-owned (or Vertigo) work. Even if they don't sell as well as the Big Two, having a solid selling non-franchise books really does seem to elevate a writer's reputation. It makes sense, at least in the sense that it shows the writer can be a draw in and of themselves.
Maybe we should try to put a list together of stuff that hasn't sucked, for the next OP?
Action Comics 1-18, 0, 25-Current
Animal Man
Aquaman
Batman
Batman/Superman 1-4
Demon Knights
Dial H
Earth 2
Flash 1-25, 0, Annuals 1-2
Green Arrow 17-Current
I, Vampire
Swamp Thing
Wonder Woman
Annnnnnnnd, I think that's mostly it besides the endings to the pre-reboot runs of Green Lantern and Batman Inc. Although I did enjoy some of the early cancelled titles (OMAC, Frankenstein, Resurrection Man, Amethyst). Batwoman might fit on that list, but DC dropped the ball so hard with it. What do you guys think? Am I missing anything?
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
Isn't Green Arrow supposed to be good from 16 or 17 onwards?
Newsarama interview with Lobdell says that in April and May we'll be getting a crossover between Superman/Wonder Woman, Superman and Action Comics. Then in June, Johns will be taking over Superman with issue #32.
In June I am writing a crossover between Batman,Batman & Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman, Superman/Wonder Woman, Superman, Superman/Batman
Posts
All the Green Lanterns and Robins got to stay, Jaime was still Blue Beetle, Kate Kane was still Batwoman, etc. A lot of the others that got erased weren't even replaced with an older version, they're just gone. Except Wally West, but he was replaced before New 52 happened, and is apparently coming back anyways.
Also I was thinking more about the Superman cast (Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Lois, etc.) when I said that. These characters aren't legacy characters that have taken over for the prior version, they're alternate versions entirely.
Though now that I think about it, I guess that situation basically did already happen and lead to our current situation, it's just it was in the years leading up to the New 52 with Geoff Johns bringing back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and sidelining their replacements. Even the "Barbara Gordon is the real Batgirl and we're going to regress her character twenty years and tell the handicapped community to piss off in order to get her back!" bullshit was something they were working at getting done for the better part of a decade before it was finally allowed to happen (earliest pitches involving a Lazarus Pit if I remember right).
Of course, continuing that trend Hal, Barry, and Barbara were not the original people to use their respective superhero identities, they were just the ones who were when much of the current staff got into comics. However, people that got into comics in the last twenty years were likely to have grown up with Kyle, Wally, and Cassandra/Steph and it'll be curious to see what happens when the current DC staff is replaced by new blood who may have different views on the "real" versions of characters (both as in who they are, such as Superman, and who should be under the mask, such as Green Lantern/Flash/Batgirl). Though it's a bit more muddied now since in those three cases the 70s versions are once again the versions that people who are just now getting into comics will be growing up with, so it may end up being rather cyclical.
Ugh. I just now envisioned the dark future where in a few decades the new editorial staff wants to go back to how "great" the New 52 was and bring back a Joker with his face cut off and Deadpool-Harley and all that.
Assuming DC is even still publishing comics then.
That's what I'm waiting for.
That's my time in the sun. (Got into DC with Zero Hour)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Also, it's funny how you talked about Geoff Johns coming in and bringing back the Silver Age versions of all of these characters. I think, like you said, some of that continued into the New 52, but it also got really wonky and off balance because they just didn't do it very well. When you talk about a character like Superman being not himself in the new 52, and eventually being returned to his core, I think that's why Greg Pak was brought onto action, and I'm betting that's why Johns is being brought onto the regular Superman title that hasn't been able to carry water at all since the relaunch (and in fairness, for quite some time before then). Geoff Johns is pretty much being brought in because DC tried to copy his style and concepts through committee, and failed miserably.
And while Johns tries to fix Superman, I think we're going to see more off-kilter versions legacy characters as they begin to surface in the New 52 over the next year, probably all dramatically different in character, context and appearance from their prior lives.
So the question becomes, who will fix all the teams and characters that have lost their momentum? If the rumor is true and Johns is being limited to two titles at a time, DC's closest writers in terms of status and acclaim are Lemire and Snyder. But Snyder is likely too busy between coordinating the Bat-titles and his creator-owned stuff, and in spite of some great work, Lemire has been at DC for 4 or 5 years now and still hasn't really exploded to AAA status yet.
For example, they're going to need a big, newer name to relaunch Teen Titans. Lemire would be a rational choice on the back of his Green Arrow, but he's arguably busier than Snyder with a weekly, two monthlies, and creator-owned stuff. There's literally no one left at DC to launch a guaranteed hit title. And I don't think they have the apparatus anymore to "make" a newer writer into a success.
They're boned.
On that note, given how apathetic and burnt out we all are on this reboot, who has the energy to make a new OP?
One thing I have to give Marvel credit for... they get a DAMN good writing staff and utilize them well.
I wouldn't be opposed (even if I don't buy singles anymore) to DC handing over Teen Titans to Simone, since she can work them into her stuff with The Movement and Batgirl. Though for all I know she might be trying to get away from DC with all her Indie projects, like the Tomb Raider and Red Sonja comics.
(I kind of love making OPs)
Also, a weird thought: I wonder if they'll put Simone on Teen Titans. I know The Movement is nowhere near the top of the charts but it seems like the kind of thing that could happen.
Pak is (and has been) absolutely killing it. That more people don't love him is mystifying to me.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Is Pak DC exclusive? If not, they should try to lock him down before he decides to jump ship.
As to why Pak isn't a bigger name, I think part of the reason is that he's never done any creator-owned (or Vertigo) work. Even if they don't sell as well as the Big Two, having a solid selling non-franchise books really does seem to elevate a writer's reputation. It makes sense, at least in the sense that it shows the writer can be a draw in and of themselves.
Action Comics 1-18, 0, 25-Current
Animal Man
Aquaman
Batman
Batman/Superman 1-4
Demon Knights
Dial H
Earth 2
Flash 1-25, 0, Annuals 1-2
Green Arrow 17-Current
I, Vampire
Swamp Thing
Wonder Woman
Annnnnnnnd, I think that's mostly it besides the endings to the pre-reboot runs of Green Lantern and Batman Inc. Although I did enjoy some of the early cancelled titles (OMAC, Frankenstein, Resurrection Man, Amethyst). Batwoman might fit on that list, but DC dropped the ball so hard with it. What do you guys think? Am I missing anything?
Batman is Bruce's miralco addicted absentee murderer father? Noooope.
In June I am writing a crossover between Batman,Batman & Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman, Superman/Wonder Woman, Superman, Superman/Batman