I absolutely do not believe in the power of institutions validating individual instances/reifications of that power, and vice versa - I do not believe individual strong examples validate the power of the institution
Whatever individual expression one may transpose to a concept is a fabrication of language, a channeling of certain feelings encompassed in a word
In a world without gold rings I would still love someone
possibly.
given that arranged marriages are still prevalent amongst perhaps two billion odd people's worth of societies, possibly said love might just matter less
i think i'm a little unclear on the meaning of subversion, here. you can subvert a government because its power is derived from a complicated system of checks and balances. you can subvert the energy industry to destabilize the price. but ultimately, it doesn't seem that excitement over the acceptance of alternative romantic relationships 'subverts' marriage. maybe marriage would become not-the-norm, or maybe some of its ancillary benefits (fiscally, in the workplace etc) would be awarded more broadly.
but unless we're discussing a mustache-twirling plot to literally sap under the social framework of marriage, making it so it loses legitimacy as a social construct (and i don't think anyone is proposing that?), then i do not see from where someone would feel like marriage is being assailed or threatened
the value of a romantic arrangement is self-perpetuating. you generate the merit of your coupling, and either take its accouterments (devotion, lifelong support, etc) seriously or not. how does meh, at this rate marriage won't be 'the' thing in society anymore undermine that? in this progressive utopia you could have a marriage every bit as rich and rewarding as the one you have now?
It kind of feels like a betrayal, like I've been lied to.
I don't like that some people feel support for "non-traditional marriage" is tantamount to destruction of the institution, and that the people supporting it don't give a fuck because they want it destroyed.
That makes me very angry. It makes me want to abandon support for anything but what I have, to batten down the hatches and tell people to fuck off. Make something new you can not give a shit about and don't ruin this institution.
That is probably not what you want but if you can't have it both ways, then you'll drive me into opposing you and everything that leads to you.
spool I am curious about this response
if a bunch of straight people in Austin get divorced, do you feel that this impacts your marriage
like in a real way -- like, changes your feelings for your wife or the stability of your relationship or something
I assume you do not, but I can't really think of how the overall perception of marriage in a city or country or society has any real connection to yours as it stands
like if a bunch of people decide they are going to be boyfriend/girlfriend forever instead of get married
or be boyfriend/boyfriend, or boyfriend/boyfriend/girlfriend, or whatever
it doesn't change the value you place on your relationship
I guess I just don't understand
We all live in the society together. If a bunch of people in Austin got divorced, it would not affect my marriage firstly because it's not my marriage that failed and secondly because everyone recognizes that those marriages failed.
If the society stopped placing value on marriage, and everyone began to believe that it was trivial, transient, and basically pointless, that would affect my marriage very much. It wouldn't affect my relationship, and it wouldn't affect the values that I placed on my relationship, but it would certainly affect my marriage because A component of that marriage is the societal perception of it. A marriage is not just between two people on an island apart from everyone else in the society. A marriage is a public statement, that people have made a commitment to each other in public. It is a declaration to the society that these people have made a commitment to each other. If the societal response was "Who gives a shit", that would certainly affect me.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
i'm all for gay marriage because i think that formalized monogamous romantic relationships are great and it isn't fair to restrict them to only heterosexuals.
because i think that setting up divisions between gay people and straight people is bad for society.
not because institutions need subverting, man. down with the patriarchy!
but I mean
you've literally been subverting the traditional institution of marriage for a decade now
like, cohabitating for 10 years with no plan to get married (until recently) is what spool is talking about, as I understand it -- romantic arrangements outside of this institution
i've always believed in the institution of marriage and have never personally considered my relationships to be in defiance of the institution, or with a view to undermine it.
i can't speak for spool, and maybe he would. i was really speaking to this attitude of being pro-gay marriage because of the belief that it subverts marriage. i am pro-gay marriage because i see it as expanding and bettering marriage.
Bryan Lee O'Malley made a bunch of these. I've got one from the first time I met him, and he autographed the back and drew a picture of Ramona that took up nearly the whole card.
It would be very upsetting to me, to discover that the societal value of marriage had diminished to such an extent that my own children and grandchildren had no respect for the effort and the sacrifices that we went through to maintain one.
i'm all for gay marriage because i think that formalized monogamous romantic relationships are great and it isn't fair to restrict them to only heterosexuals.
because i think that setting up divisions between gay people and straight people is bad for society.
not because institutions need subverting, man. down with the patriarchy!
So what you are saying is that old people have trouble adjusting to changes in society? :P
kids agitating for free love, man isn't exactly a recent development.
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CindersWhose sails were black when it was windyRegistered Userregular
It would be very upsetting to me, to discover that the societal value of marriage had diminished to such an extent that my own children and grandchildren had no respect for the effort and the sacrifices that we went through to maintain one.
I don't see how that would be possible unless everyone stops having relationships somehow.
So long as people recognize that two people are in a loving and monogamous relationship I'm not seeing the problem if other random jackoffs call it marriage or not.
I do have a problem when you assign a bunch of rights to that recognition and fight tooth and nail to deny them to others because abloo abloo what if?
+4
21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
Man, reading the Sad Pictures for children kickstarter meltdown makes me feel all sorts of weird.
It would be very upsetting to me, to discover that the societal value of marriage had diminished to such an extent that my own children and grandchildren had no respect for the effort and the sacrifices that we went through to maintain one.
Like if it doesn't have intrinsic value that would continue to be recognized. If it is just a thing you struggle through for social recognition, why bother fighting for it?
We all live in the society together. If a bunch of people in Austin got divorced, it would not affect my marriage firstly because it's not my marriage that failed and secondly because everyone recognizes that those marriages failed.
If the society stopped placing value on marriage, and everyone began to believe that it was trivial, transient, and basically pointless, that would affect my marriage very much. It wouldn't affect my relationship, and it wouldn't affect the values that I placed on my relationship, but it would certainly affect my marriage because A component of that marriage is the societal perception of it. A marriage is not just between two people on an island apart from everyone else in the society. A marriage is a public statement, that people have made a commitment to each other in public. It is a declaration to the society that these people have made a commitment to each other. If the societal response was "Who gives a shit", that would certainly affect me.
this is more clear to me
however, I don't follow the part about society needing to respond/validate your choices for them to have merit?
if Sarah and I make promises to each other, that's what matters
what someone else thinks of those promises, or whether they choose to make similar promises to someone themselves, has no bearing to my mind
Like, oh no, those gosh darn progressives have gone and subverted the concept of marriage so that... um... I am still in a loving monogamous relationship and my friends and colleagues respect that and... something something?
It would be very upsetting to me, to discover that the societal value of marriage had diminished to such an extent that my own children and grandchildren had no respect for the effort and the sacrifices that we went through to maintain one.
Tell them why you value marriage. Remind your children and grandchildren of the sweet rewards that come from a lasting marriage.
Posts
possibly.
given that arranged marriages are still prevalent amongst perhaps two billion odd people's worth of societies, possibly said love might just matter less
It has always been abused, exploited, and casually ended by people who did not, or do not take their commitment seriously
which doesn't even count marriages that end for completely understandable reasons, including (but not limited to) "people change as they grow older"
so my sympathy for "marriage should be a pure institution for everyone in this society" is kind of muted
because, broadly speaking, it never has been and never will be.
I really liked Hasdai Crescas' refutation of Aristotelian physics
I don't remember it exactly but he looked at limits and said they are just as big an infinity as a straight line
This reminds me of that because it implied to me, rightly or wrongly, the fuzziness of integers on a fractal level
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
When gay marriage is legal, I'll be able to marry a man. I won't want to but I'll be able to. Even more protected rights for me is a win!
Get an ice scraper yo
you treat me like potato
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
but unless we're discussing a mustache-twirling plot to literally sap under the social framework of marriage, making it so it loses legitimacy as a social construct (and i don't think anyone is proposing that?), then i do not see from where someone would feel like marriage is being assailed or threatened
the value of a romantic arrangement is self-perpetuating. you generate the merit of your coupling, and either take its accouterments (devotion, lifelong support, etc) seriously or not. how does meh, at this rate marriage won't be 'the' thing in society anymore undermine that? in this progressive utopia you could have a marriage every bit as rich and rewarding as the one you have now?
It happens all the time!
Have you ever signed contracts? Were you a protist at the time?
I say again Progressives will never stop progressing.
We all live in the society together. If a bunch of people in Austin got divorced, it would not affect my marriage firstly because it's not my marriage that failed and secondly because everyone recognizes that those marriages failed.
If the society stopped placing value on marriage, and everyone began to believe that it was trivial, transient, and basically pointless, that would affect my marriage very much. It wouldn't affect my relationship, and it wouldn't affect the values that I placed on my relationship, but it would certainly affect my marriage because A component of that marriage is the societal perception of it. A marriage is not just between two people on an island apart from everyone else in the society. A marriage is a public statement, that people have made a commitment to each other in public. It is a declaration to the society that these people have made a commitment to each other. If the societal response was "Who gives a shit", that would certainly affect me.
Better question, what is the age of majority for a human liger hybrid?
HEY why is emnmnme getting my awesomes!? I need those!
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
i've always believed in the institution of marriage and have never personally considered my relationships to be in defiance of the institution, or with a view to undermine it.
i can't speak for spool, and maybe he would. i was really speaking to this attitude of being pro-gay marriage because of the belief that it subverts marriage. i am pro-gay marriage because i see it as expanding and bettering marriage.
Bryan Lee O'Malley made a bunch of these. I've got one from the first time I met him, and he autographed the back and drew a picture of Ramona that took up nearly the whole card.
it's a method for tracking changes
but you can't be afraid to commit
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
kids agitating for free love, man isn't exactly a recent development.
I don't see how that would be possible unless everyone stops having relationships somehow.
i don't understand this reasoning at all. it just seems like kneejerk cynicism.
just because an institution or concept hasn't always met its ideal doesn't mean it doesn't have great value.
Yeah, but think about all the ones that get forked by irreconcilable diffs.
/googles
The phrase "hispanic jewry" shouldn't make me snicker
but it do.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
are you high?
you're high aren't you?
I do have a problem when you assign a bunch of rights to that recognition and fight tooth and nail to deny them to others because abloo abloo what if?
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
Like if it doesn't have intrinsic value that would continue to be recognized. If it is just a thing you struggle through for social recognition, why bother fighting for it?
this is more clear to me
however, I don't follow the part about society needing to respond/validate your choices for them to have merit?
if Sarah and I make promises to each other, that's what matters
what someone else thinks of those promises, or whether they choose to make similar promises to someone themselves, has no bearing to my mind
they look really cool
And while I'm on Adventure Time stuff @Cinders did ya see FP's new hairstyle? ;D
She got poisoned and went pink, then only the bottom parts of her hair started heating up again.
Terrifying.
Tell them why you value marriage. Remind your children and grandchildren of the sweet rewards that come from a lasting marriage.
#hate