as wwtMask said, yeah it's all cliche, but it's all comic book cliches. "It's too much like a comic book!" "It's not enough like a comic book!" "Bizzarohulk thinks he's clever and funny when he says this shit but he needs to shut the fuck up!"
In any case, I watched the pilot and the last half of episode 2, and I'm out. So to the gentleman asking the whiners to go watch something better: believe me, I will.
Fair enough, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. You're asking for non-cliche characters in what is essentially a comic book story. You're complaining that the writers are intellectually lazy, though they're trying to write a story that will actually appeal to the most people possible (i.e., popular media). It's like asking for Justin Timberlake to make like Beethoven. Pop media is rife with cliche and unoriginality, yet people seem to enjoy it. It's not a bad thing, really, especially if you're not searching for some soul shattering new narrative convention.
I'm far more interested in the presentation and whether it can keep me interested than if the writers took enough time to come up with "original" characters. Further, if you give the show time, you might see that the cliche characters evolve into non-cliche characters. Expecting to see huge character development in two episodes is unrealistic. But, yeah, go watch something else if you can't be bothered to stick it out and see if that elusive "character development" pans out.
I don't know who exactly you guys are arguing with when you quote me, especially the guy who apparently psychoanalyzed me and discovered I only hate the show because everyone loves it. Uh?
I never suggested Lost was original in any way, but its basic serialized mystery has been a huge success and has spawned a host of imitators, every one of which has failed thus far. Heroes is another serialized mystery show. If you don't think the success of Lost--and I hate Lost, just so we're clear--had anything to do with this show appearing on NBC's programming this year, I don't know what to tell you.
I can't really address your other points, such as me, uh, hating Heroes because it's not Lost, since that's not my position at all. I thought I'd made it clear that I dislike the show because there isn't a hint of originality and the writing is awful.
Which is why I'm not going to watch any more. Sorry, but I don't feel I need to see the entire series to form an opinion of whether it's for me or not. It's not for me. Sorry I "can't be bothered" to wait to see if the show becomes good.
It's scary to me how many of you are apologizing for this show's unoriginality. It's like you're saying, "Yes, it sucks, but everything else sucks, so it's okay." The idea that every piece of art borrows from something that came before it does not excuse a show as blatantly lazy as this. If it's going to steal from everything it might as well at least do it well, which I contend it does not. I'm not asking for some stunning uniqueness. I'm asking for some attempt to rise above "Hooker with a Heart of Gold"--and no, wiseass, giving a stock character a superpower does not suddenly make her interesting.
Enjoy the show, guys; I'm glad it's found an audience that enjoys it. I'm going to be hugely surprised if it gets another season, but I sincerely wish you well. I won't be watching. Or trying to argue with you.
Since when are characters' professions/ailments consdered cliches?
When they're only defined by them. These character have absolutely no complexity ... save for the cheerleader, who may just be the most interesting character on the show. The characters feel so artificial and contrived, like the majority of them were tuned and tweaked to test audience preferences. It's two episodes in, and I don't feel anything for these people. They could literally kill off two of them now and I wouldn't feel like any potential had been wasted.
Like I said, the plot arc and the mystery are pretty decent, but the acting and dialogue are horrible. Good shows can make cliched and played out characters work, but the quality just isn't there with Heroes.
I don't know who exactly you guys are arguing with when you quote me, especially the guy who apparently psychoanalyzed me and discovered I only hate the show because everyone loves it. Uh?
I never suggested Lost was original in any way, but its basic serialized mystery has been a huge success and has spawned a host of imitators, every one of which has failed thus far. Heroes is another serialized mystery show. If you don't think the success of Lost--and I hate Lost, just so we're clear--had anything to do with this show appearing on NBC's programming this year, I don't know what to tell you.
I can't really address your other points, such as me, uh, hating Heroes because it's not Lost, since that's not my position at all. I thought I'd made it clear that I dislike the show because there isn't a hint of originality and the writing is awful.
Which is why I'm not going to watch any more. Sorry, but I don't feel I need to see the entire series to form an opinion of whether it's for me or not. It's not for me. Sorry I "can't be bothered" to wait to see if the show becomes good.
It's scary to me how many of you are apologizing for this show's unoriginality. It's like you're saying, "Yes, it sucks, but everything else sucks, so it's okay." The idea that every piece of art borrows from something that came before it does not excuse a show as blatantly lazy as this. If it's going to steal from everything it might as well at least do it well, which I contend it does not. I'm not asking for some stunning uniqueness. I'm asking for some attempt to rise above "Hooker with a Heart of Gold"--and no, wiseass, giving a stock character a superpower does not suddenly make her interesting.
Enjoy the show, guys; I'm glad it's found an audience that enjoys it. I'm going to be hugely surprised if it gets another season, but I sincerely wish you well. I won't be watching. Or trying to argue with you.
Look, I don't think any of us are trying to convince you that Heroes is some God given ambrosia to man. All I'm saying is that your tone is that of those people who "Hate it because everyone likes it" type of guys. This post was better, better by ALOT. You don't sound like some flame spewing dragon out to educate the masses on how bad this show is.
You bashed it because it has a lot of things you've seen before. That's all fine and dandy, but, that's basically the only point you made forcefully.
It's fine not to like it because of stilted dialouge, bad pacing, and overall poor delivery buy some(leaning on most) of the actor's, and hell, even the whole "cash in on Lost" point. These are all valid complaint's.
The point I was trying to make is that disliking a show for PRIMARILY lack of originality is laughable. "Originality" isn't what makes a show good. Direction, writing, pacing, acting are all what make show's today good or not. Originality has it's part to play, of course, however it's not the deciding factor.
Overall, I think the show has some promise, promise that should probably be encouraged. If it's not to your liking, well, then, that's you.
Oh, and you have a point that putting superpower's in a "stock" character isn't interesting. However, that isn't what makes her interesting. The fact that she has schizophrenia, and that her power is active while her main personality is blacked out is what makes her interesting.\
Pre-Emp: yes, that power isn't all that interesting, but, put on that type of character, I believe it is.
It's an ok show so far, but I'm sick of that cheerleader chick being all like "oh noes, I'm a freak!" Look, lady, you're not BLUE and you can get an awesome job as a stuntman now. Settle down.
Also, when it turned out that comic was just written by that future paintin' dude, I was kinda disappointed. I was hoping for some Animal Man/Grant Morrison crazy shit.
Jordyn on
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
The point I was trying to make is that disliking a show for PRIMARILY lack of originality is laughable. "Originality" isn't what makes a show good. Direction, writing, pacing, acting are all what make show's today good or not. Originality has it's part to play, of course, however it's not the deciding factor.
I've already said I'm not going to be watching it any longer, and I really have no desire to donate ammunition for ad hominem attacks by listing shows I watch (manaleak34, I don't think this was your intention, I'm just sayin'). So. Seriously. Enjoy.
Yeah, we get it. You're smarter than us, Colour. Thanks for sharing.
CyberJackal on
0
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
edited October 2006
ok watched the second ep.
wow you can really really tell taht this was originally a 2 hours episode that NBC decided to cut in half. It would of worked much much better had it been all played in one go.
In any case for the most part it was fairly average but the last 10 minutes or so really saved it.
Enjoyed watching the show myself. Have to say I found the ending of the second kind of odd. When the police busted in and found Hiro in the building...
[spoiler:6a3f043131]none of them seemed that suprised to find a body with it's head opened like a can of soup and it's brain missing. I would think that someone would at least mention it in passing when arresting the lost looking Japanese guy.[/spoiler:6a3f043131]
One can only suppose that sometime within the next 5 weeks, such things become common place.
What I don't understand is why people compare this to Lost. It's got multiple characters and mystery. Yay.
Anyway, about the artist and drugs...
[spoiler:224dd6d0fe]I don't think he actually needs drugs to predict the future. Or more precicely, he doesn't have a major psychological block that prevents him from using his power.
When Hiro travelled to November New York Isaac had published a good clean comic and was apparently in the middle of working on another one when he was killed.
To me this implies his girlfriend managed to get him off the drugs but he still retained his powers.
I like to think now Hiro will travel to New York with a more conventional method of transportation, meet Isaac and manage to fuck up his rehab process. Somehow it just appeals to my sense of symmetry.[/spoiler:224dd6d0fe]
Here's the deal guys. It's an original series based on a nerdy concept but done in a serious fashion. It's a good thing and regardless of what anybody says it's really a fairly unique show, minor cliches aside.
Here's the deal guys. It's an original series based on a nerdy concept but done in a serious fashion. It's a good thing and regardless of what anybody says it's really a fairly unique show, minor cliches aside.
Here's the deal guys. It's an original series based on a nerdy concept but done in a serious fashion. It's a good thing and regardless of what anybody says it's really a fairly unique show, minor cliches aside.
Here's the deal guys. It's an original series based dark, dark vengeance but done in a serious, dark vengeance fashion. It's a good thing and regardless of what anybody says it's really dark, dark vengenace, minor cliches aside.
Regarding cheerleader's durability:Have you ever seen what would happen to a 90 pound girl when open field tackled by a 180-240 pound football player? I'm sure nobody has, but you can only imagine how fucked up she would be. Football player's necks don't snap like twigs because they are wearing pads.
I don't think she's suicidal, but wouldn't you be curious as to just how bad you could be hurt and regenerate? I think she wants it videotaped just so she knows she hasn't lost her damn mind. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but on the NBC Heroes site, there is A LOT of room in that picture for more characters. i can't wait until next monday personally.
to the naysayers, just because you think you summed up a character's personality in one sentence does not make them a cliche, it just makes you a simp. "OMG a flying nurse who just wants to be special and help people and also has a depressed dad and overachieving brother. I've seen it a thousand times!"
I think that something is up with Claire that we'll be clued into as the show progresses. I think that she was trying to kill herself initially. After saving the man in the fire, though, she has a will to live and to, I don't know, be heroic, use her gift.
Conditional_Axe on
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited October 2006
All of the actors are on for 7 episodes, according to IMDB
I think that those episodes are this story, and then new characters will be in the next story
I think that something is up with Claire that we'll be clued into as the show progresses. I think that she was trying to kill herself initially. After saving the man in the fire, though, she has a will to live and to, I don't know, be heroic, use her gift.
Maybe, but she could have discovered her powers if she cut herself, or got dropped off the pyramid in cheerleading or something. That's what i like about this show, i really don't know what to expect.
What I don't understand is why people compare this to Lost. It's got multiple characters and mystery. Yay.
Anyway, about the artist and drugs...
[spoiler:f49050e982]I don't think he actually needs drugs to predict the future. Or more precicely, he doesn't have a major psychological block that prevents him from using his power.
When Hiro travelled to November New York Isaac had published a good clean comic and was apparently in the middle of working on another one when he was killed.
To me this implies his girlfriend managed to get him off the drugs but he still retained his powers.
I like to think now Hiro will travel to New York with a more conventional method of transportation, meet Isaac and manage to fuck up his rehab process. Somehow it just appeals to my sense of symmetry.[/spoiler:f49050e982]
I think one of the major reasons people are comparing it to Lost, and may not even realize it, is because it seems to be playing out like a serial and there just aren't many of those on television. It may just be that they chopped up a two hour episode, but I get the feeling it won't be and will continue to be a fairly closely connected story that runs through the season like Lost tends to be... at times.
All of the actors are on for 7 episodes, according to IMDB
I think that those episodes are this story, and then new characters will be in the next story
Well, besides IMDB basically being wikipedia and therefore somewhat unreliable, I imagine it's because it was only today that NBC ordered a full season.
Question:
[spoiler:93604b6643] What was in the shows future and what was in the present? I mean I know Hiro's visit to druggie was in the future, but what about the cop? She said it was a serial killer, was that in "November?" or "now?" [/spoiler:93604b6643]
Sharp10r on
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Question:
[spoiler:23c3ebda80] What was in the shows future and what was in the present? I mean I know Hiro's visit to druggie was in the future, but what about the cop? She said it was a serial killer, was that in "November?" or "now?" [/spoiler:23c3ebda80]
[spoiler:27086dddbb]"Waking up in the middle of your own autopsy" is waaay up there on the list of things I would not wish on anyone. Also, I hope that the cop guy doesn't get lobotomised or something [/spoiler:27086dddbb]
[spoiler:f544322592] Maybe I missed something, but was Hiro slowly paging through the comic as it happened in life? Or did he just sit down and read what would happen till the end of the book, like I probably would if I had a damn comic book that predicted the future.[/spoiler:f544322592]
Oh, and what was the deal with that black guy in the cafe? The one whose [spoiler:f544322592] mind couldn't be read.... just came out as static.[/spoiler:f544322592]
I agree that some of the dialogue and characterization leaves much to be desired, but the show's interesting enough to keep me watching. Woo.
Kshah777 on
"He ate a moose and he ate a whale, he even ate a mountain... of shrimp..."
~"The Ballad of Morgan Brown"
[spoiler:2b46d43fff] Maybe I missed something, but was Hiro slowly paging through the comic as it happened in life? Or did he just sit down and read what would happen till the end of the book, like I probably would if I had a damn comic book that predicted the future.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
Oh, and what was the deal with that black guy in the cafe? The one whose [spoiler:2b46d43fff] mind couldn't be read.... just came out as static.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
I agree that some of the dialogue and characterization leaves much to be desired, but the show's interesting enough to keep me watching. Woo.
[spoiler:2b46d43fff]He knew about the girl far in advance, so I imagine he read the entire thing.
Kind of interesting how his actions directly led to the girl becoming endangered in the first place. Worse yet, neither himself nor his friend acknowledged the fact. I hope he isn't banking on changing the ending to the comic.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
[spoiler:2b46d43fff]I wanna see that date rapist get what's coming to him. Doesn't seem like the cheerleader was suicidal in this episode. I hope a botched suicide attempt is her origin, though, since I thought it was a really good idea when it was mentioned here as a possibility.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
[spoiler:c372c0e139]That autopsy scene was pretty messed up, until you stopped to think about it and then it was just kinda dumb. Like, why were they doing an autopsy? Cause of death is a stick in her head. And, why did they wait so long to take the stick out? And then, did the person take the stick out and immediately run to the bathroom, so she could be alone when she woke up? [/spoiler:c372c0e139]
I like the show ok, I hope everyone else is noticing the repeating little symbol thing.
Jordyn on
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
[spoiler:929e7620de]I have a feeling that whoever took the stick out was not any sort of medical person. And I'm not sure how autopsies work but I think they wanted to make sure if there was some underlining cause of death and the branch was simply some cover-up or something. Heck we don't even know if she is at an actual morgue or not.[/spoiler:929e7620de]
Posts
Fair enough, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. You're asking for non-cliche characters in what is essentially a comic book story. You're complaining that the writers are intellectually lazy, though they're trying to write a story that will actually appeal to the most people possible (i.e., popular media). It's like asking for Justin Timberlake to make like Beethoven. Pop media is rife with cliche and unoriginality, yet people seem to enjoy it. It's not a bad thing, really, especially if you're not searching for some soul shattering new narrative convention.
I'm far more interested in the presentation and whether it can keep me interested than if the writers took enough time to come up with "original" characters. Further, if you give the show time, you might see that the cliche characters evolve into non-cliche characters. Expecting to see huge character development in two episodes is unrealistic. But, yeah, go watch something else if you can't be bothered to stick it out and see if that elusive "character development" pans out.
I never suggested Lost was original in any way, but its basic serialized mystery has been a huge success and has spawned a host of imitators, every one of which has failed thus far. Heroes is another serialized mystery show. If you don't think the success of Lost--and I hate Lost, just so we're clear--had anything to do with this show appearing on NBC's programming this year, I don't know what to tell you.
I can't really address your other points, such as me, uh, hating Heroes because it's not Lost, since that's not my position at all. I thought I'd made it clear that I dislike the show because there isn't a hint of originality and the writing is awful.
Which is why I'm not going to watch any more. Sorry, but I don't feel I need to see the entire series to form an opinion of whether it's for me or not. It's not for me. Sorry I "can't be bothered" to wait to see if the show becomes good.
It's scary to me how many of you are apologizing for this show's unoriginality. It's like you're saying, "Yes, it sucks, but everything else sucks, so it's okay." The idea that every piece of art borrows from something that came before it does not excuse a show as blatantly lazy as this. If it's going to steal from everything it might as well at least do it well, which I contend it does not. I'm not asking for some stunning uniqueness. I'm asking for some attempt to rise above "Hooker with a Heart of Gold"--and no, wiseass, giving a stock character a superpower does not suddenly make her interesting.
Enjoy the show, guys; I'm glad it's found an audience that enjoys it. I'm going to be hugely surprised if it gets another season, but I sincerely wish you well. I won't be watching. Or trying to argue with you.
BizarroHulk needs to sign his posts more!!
When they're only defined by them. These character have absolutely no complexity ... save for the cheerleader, who may just be the most interesting character on the show. The characters feel so artificial and contrived, like the majority of them were tuned and tweaked to test audience preferences. It's two episodes in, and I don't feel anything for these people. They could literally kill off two of them now and I wouldn't feel like any potential had been wasted.
Like I said, the plot arc and the mystery are pretty decent, but the acting and dialogue are horrible. Good shows can make cliched and played out characters work, but the quality just isn't there with Heroes.
Look, I don't think any of us are trying to convince you that Heroes is some God given ambrosia to man. All I'm saying is that your tone is that of those people who "Hate it because everyone likes it" type of guys. This post was better, better by ALOT. You don't sound like some flame spewing dragon out to educate the masses on how bad this show is.
You bashed it because it has a lot of things you've seen before. That's all fine and dandy, but, that's basically the only point you made forcefully.
It's fine not to like it because of stilted dialouge, bad pacing, and overall poor delivery buy some(leaning on most) of the actor's, and hell, even the whole "cash in on Lost" point. These are all valid complaint's.
The point I was trying to make is that disliking a show for PRIMARILY lack of originality is laughable. "Originality" isn't what makes a show good. Direction, writing, pacing, acting are all what make show's today good or not. Originality has it's part to play, of course, however it's not the deciding factor.
Overall, I think the show has some promise, promise that should probably be encouraged. If it's not to your liking, well, then, that's you.
Oh, and you have a point that putting superpower's in a "stock" character isn't interesting. However, that isn't what makes her interesting. The fact that she has schizophrenia, and that her power is active while her main personality is blacked out is what makes her interesting.\
Pre-Emp: yes, that power isn't all that interesting, but, put on that type of character, I believe it is.
Maybe it's just not the type of show for you...
Also, when it turned out that comic was just written by that future paintin' dude, I was kinda disappointed. I was hoping for some Animal Man/Grant Morrison crazy shit.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
he is superfluous
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
That's lovely, Transporter. However, my original post in this thread was not an exhaustive attempt to list everything I found displeasing about the show. It was a rebuttal to the assertion that the show was without clichés. So my apologies for not making my other points more forcefully. Or whatever you're saying. We seem to be talking almost-but-not-quite at each other, so it's probably best I just stop trying to communicate with you. But thanks for explaining tv to me; the scales have fallen from my eyes.
I've already said I'm not going to be watching it any longer, and I really have no desire to donate ammunition for ad hominem attacks by listing shows I watch (manaleak34, I don't think this was your intention, I'm just sayin'). So. Seriously. Enjoy.
wow you can really really tell taht this was originally a 2 hours episode that NBC decided to cut in half. It would of worked much much better had it been all played in one go.
In any case for the most part it was fairly average but the last 10 minutes or so really saved it.
[spoiler:6a3f043131]none of them seemed that suprised to find a body with it's head opened like a can of soup and it's brain missing. I would think that someone would at least mention it in passing when arresting the lost looking Japanese guy.[/spoiler:6a3f043131]
One can only suppose that sometime within the next 5 weeks, such things become common place.
Anyway, about the artist and drugs...
[spoiler:224dd6d0fe]I don't think he actually needs drugs to predict the future. Or more precicely, he doesn't have a major psychological block that prevents him from using his power.
When Hiro travelled to November New York Isaac had published a good clean comic and was apparently in the middle of working on another one when he was killed.
To me this implies his girlfriend managed to get him off the drugs but he still retained his powers.
I like to think now Hiro will travel to New York with a more conventional method of transportation, meet Isaac and manage to fuck up his rehab process. Somehow it just appeals to my sense of symmetry.[/spoiler:224dd6d0fe]
There, I win.
I'm the goddamn Batman.
i agree
but fixed
and improved!
I don't think she's suicidal, but wouldn't you be curious as to just how bad you could be hurt and regenerate? I think she wants it videotaped just so she knows she hasn't lost her damn mind. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but on the NBC Heroes site, there is A LOT of room in that picture for more characters. i can't wait until next monday personally.
to the naysayers, just because you think you summed up a character's personality in one sentence does not make them a cliche, it just makes you a simp. "OMG a flying nurse who just wants to be special and help people and also has a depressed dad and overachieving brother. I've seen it a thousand times!"
I think that those episodes are this story, and then new characters will be in the next story
Maybe, but she could have discovered her powers if she cut herself, or got dropped off the pyramid in cheerleading or something. That's what i like about this show, i really don't know what to expect.
I think one of the major reasons people are comparing it to Lost, and may not even realize it, is because it seems to be playing out like a serial and there just aren't many of those on television. It may just be that they chopped up a two hour episode, but I get the feeling it won't be and will continue to be a fairly closely connected story that runs through the season like Lost tends to be... at times.
Well, besides IMDB basically being wikipedia and therefore somewhat unreliable, I imagine it's because it was only today that NBC ordered a full season.
[spoiler:93604b6643] What was in the shows future and what was in the present? I mean I know Hiro's visit to druggie was in the future, but what about the cop? She said it was a serial killer, was that in "November?" or "now?" [/spoiler:93604b6643]
I believe only Hiro was in the future
This show's awesome.
[spoiler:aac89a86bb]He shot that guy like six times. And then he flew away.[/spoiler:aac89a86bb]
[spoiler:27086dddbb]"Waking up in the middle of your own autopsy" is waaay up there on the list of things I would not wish on anyone. Also, I hope that the cop guy doesn't get lobotomised or something
[spoiler:f544322592] Maybe I missed something, but was Hiro slowly paging through the comic as it happened in life? Or did he just sit down and read what would happen till the end of the book, like I probably would if I had a damn comic book that predicted the future.[/spoiler:f544322592]
Oh, and what was the deal with that black guy in the cafe? The one whose [spoiler:f544322592] mind couldn't be read.... just came out as static.[/spoiler:f544322592]
I agree that some of the dialogue and characterization leaves much to be desired, but the show's interesting enough to keep me watching. Woo.
~"The Ballad of Morgan Brown"
Kind of interesting how his actions directly led to the girl becoming endangered in the first place. Worse yet, neither himself nor his friend acknowledged the fact. I hope he isn't banking on changing the ending to the comic.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
[spoiler:2b46d43fff]I wanna see that date rapist get what's coming to him. Doesn't seem like the cheerleader was suicidal in this episode. I hope a botched suicide attempt is her origin, though, since I thought it was a really good idea when it was mentioned here as a possibility.[/spoiler:2b46d43fff]
I like the show ok, I hope everyone else is noticing the repeating little symbol thing.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!