So, the idea that a regular person repeating, reusing or otherwise appropriating a joke is somehow wrong and that accreditation is a moral responsibility? It's wrong.
There is no such moral imperative. It's not how comedy or communication works. And jokes aren't things to be protected, they are things to be told.
Noooooooooope.
edit: To actually address your point. You're in academia, right? How would you feel if someone used your work in an academic paper without citing it? How would you feel about using someone else's work without citing it?
This is kind of different though?
Like I don't think many academics care if some person on the street is telling their friend some crazy thing without citing it. Passing it off professionally is a different thing, but we're not talking about comedians getting paid to go on stage and using others' jokes, which would be a more analogous analogy.
Part of the distinction comes from how broadly and clearly academic work gets attributed to the author on the front end, though.
Scientists have little reason to mind because to the extent that a broader sweep of society cares about a scientist's work, it's hard for that to do anything but strengthen that scientist's job security during tenure negotiations, salary renegotiations, etc.
It's the opposite with most comics.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. I think scientists mostly don't really care about how non-academics fail to cite their work, the only thing scientists really hate as far as I can tell is lay people willfully misinterpreting results with an ideological bent.
if someone tells a joke and I heard it elsewhere I will say so
I don't care if it ruins the flow... deliver the line and then say where it came from
I find it kind of gross to do otherwise. likewise if you were quoting a book and didn't admit it, etc.
That sounds really displeasureable to be around, if I am being honest.
If someone asked if I quoted something, I would tell them. But people are under no obligation to force that fact into a conversation.
I mean, sure. no one is obligated to do anything.
but I mean first of all, if it was apparent that it's the exact same concept as someone else? I'd assume it was a 'reference' anyway and go "oh that's blahblah! nice!"
and that's nice
do that "heh, [comedian]" to the guy speaking and he's like "yeah" and then he goes on is always a neat little moment
but that's not what you said first! You said that he has to deliver the line and then say where it came from even if it ruins the flow which sounds dumb and displeasurable and just intentionally wanting to make the conversation a little less good?
I mean also on top of that you don't get to say you recognize it if he says who it is
it's a nice moment when somebody is like heh yeah I know this one or even like heh yeah I know what website this is from and i'm like oh cool in my head
but if I was gonna go like "this was from dostojevski btw" I am gonna sound like a twat at worst and a bore at best
well I don't care if it ruins the flow, but I also said you can say where it came from after! even after everyone laughs. you need not ruin the flow, but I also think that's secondary to not acting like you came up with something you didn't.
it's this part that is odd to me
if you're having a conversation with someone and they say something that makes you laugh- is your natural assumption, if they don't credit it, that they are claiming authorship?
that is i think the crux of this disagreement
if there is nothing stating otherwise I assume the person came up with what they are saying to me
there's a loooooooooong tradition of things as simple as "ever hear the one about the _____"
hmm. This made me realize I almost never assume a joke a friend tells is something they came up with because far more often than not if it's a joke they didn't.
Unless it's one of my friends who does stand up. And even then when we're just shooting the shit the default assumption is that they're referencing something because they largely save their original stuff for when they're on stage.
I assume they just about everything that comes out of someone's mouth is something they read, heard, or saw earlier, with perhaps their own minor spin on it.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
if someone tells a joke and I heard it elsewhere I will say so
I don't care if it ruins the flow... deliver the line and then say where it came from
I find it kind of gross to do otherwise. likewise if you were quoting a book and didn't admit it, etc.
That sounds really displeasureable to be around, if I am being honest.
If someone asked if I quoted something, I would tell them. But people are under no obligation to force that fact into a conversation.
I mean, sure. no one is obligated to do anything.
but I mean first of all, if it was apparent that it's the exact same concept as someone else? I'd assume it was a 'reference' anyway and go "oh that's blahblah! nice!"
and that's nice
do that "heh, [comedian]" to the guy speaking and he's like "yeah" and then he goes on is always a neat little moment
but that's not what you said first! You said that he has to deliver the line and then say where it came from even if it ruins the flow which sounds dumb and displeasurable and just intentionally wanting to make the conversation a little less good?
I mean also on top of that you don't get to say you recognize it if he says who it is
it's a nice moment when somebody is like heh yeah I know this one or even like heh yeah I know what website this is from and i'm like oh cool in my head
but if I was gonna go like "this was from dostojevski btw" I am gonna sound like a twat at worst and a bore at best
well I don't care if it ruins the flow, but I also said you can say where it came from after! even after everyone laughs. you need not ruin the flow, but I also think that's secondary to not acting like you came up with something you didn't.
it's this part that is odd to me
if you're having a conversation with someone and they say something that makes you laugh- is your natural assumption, if they don't credit it, that they are claiming authorship?
that is i think the crux of this disagreement
if there is nothing stating otherwise I assume the person came up with what they are saying to me
there's a loooooooooong tradition of things as simple as "ever hear the one about the _____"
I wanna be rude and say that you're kinda stupid if you can't figure it out without that
but maybe I dunno, a minor cultural thing
it's like, I don't have to say, here's a joke, to make it apparent that I am telling a joke
I'm not following this. have you never come up with a joke?
So, the idea that a regular person repeating, reusing or otherwise appropriating a joke is somehow wrong and that accreditation is a moral responsibility? It's wrong.
There is no such moral imperative. It's not how comedy or communication works. And jokes aren't things to be protected, they are things to be told.
Noooooooooope.
edit: To actually address your point. You're in academia, right? How would you feel if someone used your work in an academic paper without citing it? How would you feel about using someone else's work without citing it?
A regular person?
I would care not one whit. In fact, I would encourage it.
An academic? I would care because of how the world of academia works, and how citation affects career advancement.
So there's that.
As a principle I look forward to the glorious future in which information of all kinds is freed from any petty legal notion of ownership, which would include any field in which I am involved.
Lastly, I don't think there's a direct analogy to professional comedy from academia anyway, partly because I am sceptical of the probative value of analogies in general, partly because from what I understand the way that comedy works as an industry is rather different to that of academia.
I would say there is a similarity how one would present themselves as an academic and how one presents themselves personally, and I think blatantly using someone else's work to advance your standing in either is wrong.
When I started doing comedy – back in 1988 – I did a joke one night, at an unpaid open mike, that killed. It killed. I wasn’t used to having anything in my set, in those first few months of shows, get any response from an audience other than a hard blink and an impatient sigh.
There’s a dopamine rush, for a comedian, when you cobble a thought out of thin air, when you arrange words not as a sentence but suddenly, as a joke. A for-real, plucked-from-your-skull joke. Something you created which, when you reach the part you want the audience to laugh at? And then…holy shit! They actually laugh? That’s the spike in the vein that sets the compass for your life.
Well, I’d gotten a taste. I wanted more.
The only problem was, it wasn’t my joke.
In those early days, not only did I perform as many sets as I could get, I watched as much comedy as I could find. The same way a writer has to both write, but also read. Huge bites of both, if they want to hone their voice. I’m sure this is the same in any creative field.
There was a lot of comedy to watch in the late 80’s. Too much, really. Endless cable shows, microphones in front of brick walls, geometric backgrounds, bland curtains. But for me, a suburban kid who had limited access to the city and thus limited access to other comedians to watch and learn from? The Basic Cable Jester Parade was boot camp, college and conservatory, all at the same time.
And, in watching the endless procession of amazing comedians on TV at that time, as well as working a day job and going out at night to do sets, I lived on three hours sleep a day – about eighteen hours, total, per week. And you combine that sleep deprivation with my consuming ambition, plus the fact that the few waking hours I had at home were spent chomping down all of the televised stand-up I could hunt down?
Well, I stole a joke. Not consciously. I heard something I found hilarious, mis-remembered it as an inspiration of my own, and then said it onstage. And got big laughs.
Here it is: “Whenever I’m sitting on a bus, and someone asks me if the seat next to me is free, I have an answer that guarantees no one will want that seat. I look up and smile and say, ‘No one but…The Lord.”
Huge laugh on that one. Pow! Bigger than anything else in my set at the time, that’s for sure.
I came off stage and Blaine Capatch, a comedian friend of mine who’s a never-miss machine gun in terms of quantity and quality when it comes to jokes, took me aside and said, “That’s a Carol Leifer joke, man.”
It hit me just as soon as he’d said it. He was right. It was a Carol Leifer joke. Pretty much word-for-word. I’d seen her do it on A&E’s Evening at the Improv one night and then, during a Diet Coke and Cup o’ Noodles lunch at the law firm I was clerking at, I jotted it down in my notebook as if I’d written it. And then went up onstage and killed with it. At two in the morning, for probably 17 people and no money. But what the fuck did I care at that point? All I was chasing, as an open miker, was the rush – and, I was hoping, paid work. Regularly killing during my sets would lead to that work, wouldn’t it?
In the exact moment after I’d realized that what Blaine said was true, that I’d cribbed a laugh from someone else’s creativity and inspiration, my ego kicked in. And, I mean, my real ego. Not ego’s sociopathic cousin, hubris, which would have made me defensive, aggressive and ultimately rationalize the theft. No, the good kind of ego, the kind that wanted success and fame and praise on my own merits, no matter how long it took.
I said, “Oh shit, you’re right. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. Goddamit…”
“Eh. You do it all the time when you’re starting out. Everyone does. You can’t avoid it. Just don’t make it a habit,” said Blaine, and headed back into the showroom to watch someone destroy, probably, with a rap song about farting. It was the 80’s.
did you purposely not credit this for irony
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
if someone tells a joke and I heard it elsewhere I will say so
I don't care if it ruins the flow... deliver the line and then say where it came from
I find it kind of gross to do otherwise. likewise if you were quoting a book and didn't admit it, etc.
That sounds really displeasureable to be around, if I am being honest.
If someone asked if I quoted something, I would tell them. But people are under no obligation to force that fact into a conversation.
I mean, sure. no one is obligated to do anything.
but I mean first of all, if it was apparent that it's the exact same concept as someone else? I'd assume it was a 'reference' anyway and go "oh that's blahblah! nice!"
and that's nice
do that "heh, [comedian]" to the guy speaking and he's like "yeah" and then he goes on is always a neat little moment
but that's not what you said first! You said that he has to deliver the line and then say where it came from even if it ruins the flow which sounds dumb and displeasurable and just intentionally wanting to make the conversation a little less good?
I mean also on top of that you don't get to say you recognize it if he says who it is
it's a nice moment when somebody is like heh yeah I know this one or even like heh yeah I know what website this is from and i'm like oh cool in my head
but if I was gonna go like "this was from dostojevski btw" I am gonna sound like a twat at worst and a bore at best
well I don't care if it ruins the flow, but I also said you can say where it came from after! even after everyone laughs. you need not ruin the flow, but I also think that's secondary to not acting like you came up with something you didn't.
it's this part that is odd to me
if you're having a conversation with someone and they say something that makes you laugh- is your natural assumption, if they don't credit it, that they are claiming authorship?
that is i think the crux of this disagreement
if there is nothing stating otherwise I assume the person came up with what they are saying to me
there's a loooooooooong tradition of things as simple as "ever hear the one about the _____"
I wanna be rude and say that you're kinda stupid if you can't figure it out without that
but maybe I dunno, a minor cultural thing
it's like, I don't have to say, here's a joke, to make it apparent that I am telling a joke
I'm not following this. have you never come up with a joke?
a pun or a pithy line isn't what I think of as a joke
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
my uncle was out hunting this weekend with his friend and his friend got a sudden ailment - or "probably heart attack" as it really is for someone of his age and heft
my uncle calls emergency services rather out of it, at a half shout goes "my friend's dead! What do I do!"
"Okay, calm down, first we'll make sure that he is dead."
My uncle drops the phone and shoots his friend, and says
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
if it's told with the formula of a joke - like with the conventional structure of a joke qua joke - it's assumed they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere
people rarely, if ever, have comedian-style jokes that are used during conversation. for most comedians the whole purpose is to make the rehearsal of the joke disappear, and to seem like they're naturally speaking on stage and just being hilarious. that level of forethought and preparation for normal social interaction is strange and atypical, so that method of joke-telling is rarely used (in my experience) in person.
So, the idea that a regular person repeating, reusing or otherwise appropriating a joke is somehow wrong and that accreditation is a moral responsibility? It's wrong.
There is no such moral imperative. It's not how comedy or communication works. And jokes aren't things to be protected, they are things to be told.
Noooooooooope.
edit: To actually address your point. You're in academia, right? How would you feel if someone used your work in an academic paper without citing it? How would you feel about using someone else's work without citing it?
This is kind of different though?
Like I don't think many academics care if some person on the street is telling their friend some crazy thing without citing it. Passing it off professionally is a different thing, but we're not talking about comedians getting paid to go on stage and using others' jokes, which would be a more analogous analogy.
Part of the distinction comes from how broadly and clearly academic work gets attributed to the author on the front end, though.
Scientists have little reason to mind because to the extent that a broader sweep of society cares about a scientist's work, it's hard for that to do anything but strengthen that scientist's job security during tenure negotiations, salary renegotiations, etc.
It's the opposite with most comics.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. I think scientists mostly don't really care about how non-academics fail to cite their work, the only thing scientists really hate as far as I can tell is lay people willfully misinterpreting results with an ideological bent.
My core point is that any reference is good for scientists because the broad public clarity of who really did that academic work in the first place will lead to either:
1) Nothing.
2) Public popularity that makes you more valuable to the research institution.
3) Adding to your list of academic cites.
Whereas if a comic's proprietary joke is stolen that will be pretty likely to lead to having less money for putting food on the table.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
This might be because you're a comedian? I don't think many people assume someone came up with a joke they tell, with the exception of things that are obviously made up on the spot or exceedingly specifically opportunistic to something at hand.
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
people aren't stand up comedians
when we swap dead baby jokes the point isn't to come up with them on your own, the point is to tell them
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
i think people are talking about different things here
setup->punchline jokes i would probably credit, or at least make obvious it wasn't me
but i don't really think thats necessary a lot of the time? because who sits around writing jokes with punchlines except for actual comedians? "telling a joke", like THAT kind of joke, is incredibly rare for me to do
I'm about a million times more likely to make a quip or pop culture reference for a laugh
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
if you're only talking setup->punchline jokes, not making jokes in conversation, I'd probably be more likely to assume it was from somewhere
and I'd ask where
and I couldn't answer you because most of the time, literally nobody knows, they're jokes, they get told and retold and they just live in the joke ether
who first thought of the joke about the swede with the cardoor in the desert? Who knows, because it's been said about every nationality out there.
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
if it's told with the formula of a joke - like with the conventional structure of a joke qua joke - it's assumed they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere
people rarely, if ever, have comedian-style jokes that are used during conversation. for most comedians the whole purpose is to make the rehearsal of the joke disappear, and to seem like they're naturally speaking on stage and just being hilarious. that level of forethought and preparation for normal social interaction is strange and atypical, so that method of joke-telling is rarely used (in my experience) in person.
Maybe my friends are just funnier than your friends? Even amongst my non-comedian friends, people will use funny similes or metaphores or whatever to drive the point home?
I mean, I'm not expecting everyone to communicate using only setup -> punchline, but just normal conversations are littered with things that are funny without being polished standup material.
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
if it's told with the formula of a joke - like with the conventional structure of a joke qua joke - it's assumed they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere
people rarely, if ever, have comedian-style jokes that are used during conversation. for most comedians the whole purpose is to make the rehearsal of the joke disappear, and to seem like they're naturally speaking on stage and just being hilarious. that level of forethought and preparation for normal social interaction is strange and atypical, so that method of joke-telling is rarely used (in my experience) in person.
Maybe my friends are just funnier than your friends? Even amongst my non-comedian friends, people will use funny similes or metaphores or whatever to drive the point home?
I mean, I'm not expecting everyone to communicate using only setup -> punchline, but just normal conversations are littered with things that are funny without being polished standup material.
maybe that's where we're not jiving because a quip or a funny simile isn't what I'd call a joke
there's no-one but me to credit for the fact that in pretty much any conversation most of my mind is really just skulking about waiting for an opening to say something clever
or, most of the time, "that's what she said"
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
i brought this up last night but it was like at 5 am
did anyone else know that song "take care" with drake and rihanna was a remix of a jamie xx remix of a gil scott heron song
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
if you're only talking setup->punchline jokes, not making jokes in conversation, I'd probably be more likely to assume it was from somewhere
and I'd ask where
and I couldn't answer you because most of the time, literally nobody knows, they're jokes, they get told and retold and they just live in the joke ether
who first thought of the joke about the swede with the cardoor in the desert? Who knows, because it's been said about every nationality out there.
if it was a joke like that I'd assume. there you go. ethnic jokes I wouldn't assume the person came up with, jokes that have been around forever or are thematic joke things (like the dead baby you mentioned)
this isn't what I've been talking about though. a 'joke' can mean a lot of different things to me.
The history of jokes is basically everybody re-telling jokes they heard.
And am I supposed to credit every scientist and teacher who taught me all the stuff I know?
Not just to say 'you should take some antibiotics for that' without crediting the inventors and researchers, and whoever my school biology teacher was?
Normal people are not comedians.
I figure I could take a bear.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
this is fucking bizarre to me
if it's told with the formula of a joke - like with the conventional structure of a joke qua joke - it's assumed they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere
people rarely, if ever, have comedian-style jokes that are used during conversation. for most comedians the whole purpose is to make the rehearsal of the joke disappear, and to seem like they're naturally speaking on stage and just being hilarious. that level of forethought and preparation for normal social interaction is strange and atypical, so that method of joke-telling is rarely used (in my experience) in person.
Maybe my friends are just funnier than your friends? Even amongst my non-comedian friends, people will use funny similes or metaphores or whatever to drive the point home?
I mean, I'm not expecting everyone to communicate using only setup -> punchline, but just normal conversations are littered with things that are funny without being polished standup material.
maybe that's where we're not jiving because a quip or a funny simile isn't what I'd call a joke
A joke is a statement designed to elicit laughter; stories and brief comments, alike, can be jokes.
[/kedbot 3000]
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I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. I think scientists mostly don't really care about how non-academics fail to cite their work, the only thing scientists really hate as far as I can tell is lay people willfully misinterpreting results with an ideological bent.
hmm. This made me realize I almost never assume a joke a friend tells is something they came up with because far more often than not if it's a joke they didn't.
Unless it's one of my friends who does stand up. And even then when we're just shooting the shit the default assumption is that they're referencing something because they largely save their original stuff for when they're on stage.
I have specific journals and court cases for those fuckers. Cause it's not like they have any response to Library Journal.
I assume they just about everything that comes out of someone's mouth is something they read, heard, or saw earlier, with perhaps their own minor spin on it.
I'm not following this. have you never come up with a joke?
I would say there is a similarity how one would present themselves as an academic and how one presents themselves personally, and I think blatantly using someone else's work to advance your standing in either is wrong.
when a joke is told the base assumption is almost always that the joke wasn't made up by the teller
did you purposely not credit this for irony
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
a pun or a pithy line isn't what I think of as a joke
this is fucking bizarre to me
we were talking about wifi names earlier - i mentioned my old one, boner jams '03
thats the name of the porn mixtape paul rudd briefly mentions while giving steve carell a box of porn in 40 year old virgin
i didn't say "thats from 40 year old virgin" because i don't think its always necessary?
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
my uncle calls emergency services rather out of it, at a half shout goes "my friend's dead! What do I do!"
"Okay, calm down, first we'll make sure that he is dead."
My uncle drops the phone and shoots his friend, and says
"okay, now what?"
assuming the opposite (if they don't credit it) is bizarre to me
if it's told with the formula of a joke - like with the conventional structure of a joke qua joke - it's assumed they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere
people rarely, if ever, have comedian-style jokes that are used during conversation. for most comedians the whole purpose is to make the rehearsal of the joke disappear, and to seem like they're naturally speaking on stage and just being hilarious. that level of forethought and preparation for normal social interaction is strange and atypical, so that method of joke-telling is rarely used (in my experience) in person.
Heh heh heh ... boner jams.
and I'd ask where
My core point is that any reference is good for scientists because the broad public clarity of who really did that academic work in the first place will lead to either:
1) Nothing.
2) Public popularity that makes you more valuable to the research institution.
3) Adding to your list of academic cites.
Whereas if a comic's proprietary joke is stolen that will be pretty likely to lead to having less money for putting food on the table.
This might be because you're a comedian? I don't think many people assume someone came up with a joke they tell, with the exception of things that are obviously made up on the spot or exceedingly specifically opportunistic to something at hand.
people aren't stand up comedians
when we swap dead baby jokes the point isn't to come up with them on your own, the point is to tell them
setup->punchline jokes i would probably credit, or at least make obvious it wasn't me
but i don't really think thats necessary a lot of the time? because who sits around writing jokes with punchlines except for actual comedians? "telling a joke", like THAT kind of joke, is incredibly rare for me to do
I'm about a million times more likely to make a quip or pop culture reference for a laugh
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
and I couldn't answer you because most of the time, literally nobody knows, they're jokes, they get told and retold and they just live in the joke ether
who first thought of the joke about the swede with the cardoor in the desert? Who knows, because it's been said about every nationality out there.
Maybe my friends are just funnier than your friends? Even amongst my non-comedian friends, people will use funny similes or metaphores or whatever to drive the point home?
I mean, I'm not expecting everyone to communicate using only setup -> punchline, but just normal conversations are littered with things that are funny without being polished standup material.
and if i get a big laugh, you know what, i almost always say "i can't take credit for that line though..." and say where it's from
i thought var was joking when he said it? actually meaning it is pretty obnoxious
Well, no one's dickering about The True Source of a joke that you know just by hearing it to be drawn from some ancient communal source.
You guys should get lunch
maybe that's where we're not jiving because a quip or a funny simile isn't what I'd call a joke
or, most of the time, "that's what she said"
did anyone else know that song "take care" with drake and rihanna was a remix of a jamie xx remix of a gil scott heron song
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
and built a retaining wall for it
....everything hurts
oh jesus everything hurts
if it was a joke like that I'd assume. there you go. ethnic jokes I wouldn't assume the person came up with, jokes that have been around forever or are thematic joke things (like the dead baby you mentioned)
this isn't what I've been talking about though. a 'joke' can mean a lot of different things to me.
And am I supposed to credit every scientist and teacher who taught me all the stuff I know?
Not just to say 'you should take some antibiotics for that' without crediting the inventors and researchers, and whoever my school biology teacher was?
Normal people are not comedians.
this is what I'm talking about
A joke is a statement designed to elicit laughter; stories and brief comments, alike, can be jokes.
[/kedbot 3000]