I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
I was just giving examples of other characters
with known deaths. I don't THINK he's coming back because he's a disposable mid-level functionary loyal to pseudo-Nazis perfectly willing to let their allies rot (if the post-credits bit is any indication of their attitude). I am just saying that it's thoroughly possible and wouldn't even be a stretch for the writers to come up with something to bring Sitwell back... if they really cared to.
0
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
I was just giving examples of other characters
with known deaths. I don't THINK he's coming back because he's a disposable mid-level functionary loyal to pseudo-Nazis perfectly willing to let their allies rot (if the post-credits bit is any indication of their attitude). I am just saying that it's thoroughly possible and wouldn't even be a stretch for the writers to come up with something to bring Sitwell back... if they really cared to.
Speculation regarding the ending of last episode for which you don't need to have seen Cap2:
Was Hand the person May was talking to? If so that would explain the turnaround. Your undercover operative was just silenced, while the person they where spying on(Coulson) had given indication that he was thinking of going rogue and start working directly against Shield.
I mean the timing fits: 5 minutes after May gets cut off mid-sentence, Hand orders the Bus hijacked remotely.
You definitely get that May has no idea who the Clairvoyant is, judging from her confused look when Coulson demands to know who the real Clairvoyant is.
Cap2 Adendum for future episodes:
I don't think May is part of Hydra, mostly because Hydra are the Nazis and she is Asian. Not a lot of love for the Untermensch. Hand is gay and the same goes for her. They may be working for Hydra mistakenly, but knowingly? Apart from Stilwell is there any Hydra agents of color?
Then there is the Cap2 Movie itself. We know Fury needs to be moved from the Morgue to a hospital bed. We know somebody has to acquire the circuit cards for the Helicarriers. Who got Hill onto the prison transport? Somebody needs to make it possible to spread Shield/Hydra secrets around the world. Wikileaks isn't going to cut it on that one. All stuff that the Bus Crew could be busy doing. The Cap2 movie takes place over several days and there is a huge stretch where Fury is presumed dead and setting up the showdown.
Plus the Clairvoyant is Zola. Toby Jones is a big star, but not that big. Having him as a voice over star would be doable. The Bus Crew trying to eliminate Clairvoyant from the Shield computers would a big deal, while keeping them away from the DC climax of Cap2.
CAP 2 SPOILERS ALL UP INS
There's lots of reasons a person could join Hydra, I mean, you seen the benefits package? Only partial Dental though...gotta go AIM if you want full Dental.
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
That's because Centipede is AIM. Remember the suits in the Scorch episode?
SHIELD just goes underground and becomes like the MIB where they fund themselves by slowly commercializing the technology they capture and went around disguising themselves as other government organizations.
So, remember how one of the guys at the Guest House was named... Bob.
Veeeerrrrry subtle foreshadowing?
What?
Let me point you in the right direction.
EDIT:
Nexus, The movie clearly shows three major plot point from the show and right now we can only guess how much they will interact. But you can't really talk about the show without referencing the movie at this point because they're tied together.
In case anyone's wondering here's the 3 points I took from the movie:
The Clairvoyant's identity, SHIELD being compromised, and SHIELD ultimately being disbanded.
Nocren on
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
Cap2 spoiler:
Nick Fury cheats and has Batman level prep as his superpower.
Man, based on something in Cap 2, I am trying so hard to trace down Coulson's story, and it is really weird and difficult.
Cap 2 spoilers
So Fury knows Coulson is alive. He apparently, and we have no idea to doubt it, ordered the stuff that brought him back.
But it seems that the stuff that brought him back is absolutely deep within the Hydra camp, on the Hydra side of things. The Guest House was off the books, staffed by non-SHIELD people and super hostile.
So why would the Clairvoyant be after the secret to Coulson living if Hydra are the ones making the stuff and hiding it?
So maybe the Guest House is off the books because Fury was already super suspicious and moved the alien and the stuff off site? Which would be bad, because then the team took two of the good guys, who were contracted out by Fury.
The only thing I can think of is the "what happened when you died" is a misdirection. Maybe the Clairvoyant doesn't need to know it in the sense of "How did you come back?", but in the sense of "You were never a detected threat before your death, and once you died, you suddenly became a HUGE threat to Hydra and how did I not predict that?"
Because if the Guest House was a Hydra run facility, which it absolutely seems to be, it knows how Coulson came back. And it let it happen, to a certain extent, because Pierce knows Coulson is alive for sure, if Sitwell does.
The whole thing makes me think as much as it seems like Zola is the clairvoyant, it can't be. It has to be a thing designed to combat Hydra...maybe A.I.M. developed a program like Zola in attempts to get one step ahead...M.O.D.O.K...
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
It's also one thing to have those two events occur in the same movie, but having someone appear to die in a movie and then be alive later on the show would be a tough sell.
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
It's also one thing to have those two events occur in the same movie, but having someone appear to die in a movie and then be alive later on the show would be a tough sell.
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
It's also one thing to have those two events occur in the same movie, but having someone appear to die in a movie and then be alive later on the show would be a tough sell.
That is the entire premise Agents of SHIELD is based on.
Agent Coulson begs to differ.
(although I totally get your point and agree with you, I'm just being an ass)
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
There's no reason to assume the Guest House was Hydra as of this time. The Guest House was entirely off of SHIELDs radar, so it's easily possible that it was off Hydra's radar too.
I can't believe it about Sitwell. I was looking forward to more guest appearances from him.
It's a comic book.
Being thrown from a moving car? Never seen again in the movie? Almost certainly still alive.
He was clearly thrown directly in front of an oncoming semi. It a comic book so we might see DethSitwell or something but just "What? I rolled when i hit the ground, I'm a secret agent after all" is fairly unlikely.
Kinda my point. We have Fury dying on the operating table. We saw his corpse. Then he was well enough to go around shooting Robert Redford. The Winter Soldier himself had a bit of a fatal episode in a previous movie. Zola died of cancer, physically, but he still had plenty of exposition left in him. Don't even get me started on the resurrections in Agents of SHIELD. Deth-Sitwell (Dethwell?) is only one of many, many possibilities for his return.
Or he may stay dead. Just saying, this kind of show, you can NEVER assume that someone is dead and gone for good.
I don't think that tracks.
You're comparing Nick Fury to a third-tier villain. The only bad guy in the film less threatening than him was Senator Garry Shandling. Nick Fury gets seven kinds of hell beat out of him, shot three times in the chest, dies on the operating table, and comes back later with an explanation, because he's Nick fucking Fury, and not least played by Sam fucking Jackson. Sitwell, in a car traveling on the freeway, gets thrown in front of a semi going the opposite direction. I think a ten-ton slab of metal hitting you at an effective 120 mph+ is going to do more...shall we say, catastrophic...damage than what Fury went through.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
It's also one thing to have those two events occur in the same movie, but having someone appear to die in a movie and then be alive later on the show would be a tough sell.
What?
That's the joke.
Cap2/AoS spoilers:
I could make an argument that he's a bad guy ergo not subject to the same rules, but that's just because I really liked the character. He seems pretty dead, but we'll find out.
I really liked Sitwell, damnit. He had a sense of humor about all the craziness that surrounds them.
There's no reason to assume the Guest House was Hydra as of this time. The Guest House was entirely off of SHIELDs radar, so it's easily possible that it was off Hydra's radar too.
Cap2
That's where it gets weird to me though. I agree with you, but if it's not Hydra, it's Fury's. And while we see Fury is/was a lot more dishonest and shady, it's still messed up if Ward and Coulson just shot two guys that Fury was paying to guard a secret from Hydra.
and I feel like it would have been a way bigger deal internally at SHIELD if Fury brought Coulson back and then just said "Don't worry about it." A ton of people know how it happened, and were involved. Sitwell absolutely knew what happened.
So it makes more sense that Hydra knows all about how it happened, and the Clairvoyant is either not related to Hydra at all, or isn't interested in the actual ressurection.
Especially after the mid-credits stinger, I can't see Hydra being THAT phased by the dead coming back.
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
There's no reason to assume the Guest House was Hydra as of this time. The Guest House was entirely off of SHIELDs radar, so it's easily possible that it was off Hydra's radar too.
Cap2
That's where it gets weird to me though. I agree with you, but if it's not Hydra, it's Fury's. And while we see Fury is/was a lot more dishonest and shady, it's still messed up if Ward and Coulson just shot two guys that Fury was paying to guard a secret from Hydra.
and I feel like it would have been a way bigger deal internally at SHIELD if Fury brought Coulson back and then just said "Don't worry about it." A ton of people know how it happened, and were involved. Sitwell absolutely knew what happened.
So it makes more sense that Hydra knows all about how it happened, and the Clairvoyant is either not related to Hydra at all, or isn't interested in the actual ressurection.
Especially after the mid-credits stinger, I can't see Hydra being THAT phased by the dead coming back.
There are more things than Hydra and Fury, mxmarks, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
My guess would be a third party (The Hive?) that Fury learned about during his time as a spy, and kept off the books in exchange for access to their advanced tech.
Fury was into keeping secrets long before he knew about Hydra's return.
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
isn't benefiting Hydra as a whole. Before Cap 2, no one in SHIELD even suspected Hydra's involvement. By revealing the existence of the Clairvoyance, Hydra jeopardizes their secrecy within SHIELD. Letting SHIELD know that they have a mole would only encourage greater oversight and make it harder for Hydra to manipulate SHIELD. Also, the Clairvoyant's security breaches could have delayed the development of Project Insight.
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
isn't benefiting Hydra as a whole. Before Cap 2, no one in SHIELD even suspected Hydra's involvement. By revealing the existence of the Clairvoyance, Hydra jeopardizes their secrecy within SHIELD. Letting SHIELD know that they have a mole would only encourage greater oversight and make it harder for Hydra to manipulate SHIELD. Also, the Clairvoyant's security breaches could have delayed the development of Project Insight.
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
Centipede can serve three purposes. First is R&D that isn't traceable to SHIELD. They can develop weapon systems and enhancements that SHIELD doesn't know about. Second is that they are an outside threat. Something for Fury to send people chasing rather then looking inwards. A distraction. The third is that the side effects of their R&D allow for them to reach for more control and more funding. Project Insight becomes a more compelling project when you aren't just chasing normal terrorists, but terrorists who can make more people with Extremis. It fans the flames of fear. Which further's HYDRA's long term goals. Sure it works against them in the short term, but in the long run there is a lot of upside.
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
isn't benefiting Hydra as a whole. Before Cap 2, no one in SHIELD even suspected Hydra's involvement. By revealing the existence of the Clairvoyance, Hydra jeopardizes their secrecy within SHIELD. Letting SHIELD know that they have a mole would only encourage greater oversight and make it harder for Hydra to manipulate SHIELD. Also, the Clairvoyant's security breaches could have delayed the development of Project Insight.
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
Centipede can serve three purposes. First is R&D that isn't traceable to SHIELD. They can develop weapon systems and enhancements that SHIELD doesn't know about. Second is that they are an outside threat. Something for Fury to send people chasing rather then looking inwards. A distraction. The third is that the side effects of their R&D allow for them to reach for more control and more funding. Project Insight becomes a more compelling project when you aren't just chasing normal terrorists, but terrorists who can make more people with Extremis. It fans the flames of fear. Which further's HYDRA's long term goals. Sure it works against them in the short term, but in the long run there is a lot of upside.
Except all those things are negated by Centipede's actions and the Clairvoyant.
Their R&D not being traceable to SHIELD is nice but by revealing their existence to SHIELD, they're only hindering their own progress.
They're not just an outside threat since they have a mole within SHIELD, they steal tech from SHIELD, and they try to recruit from SHIELD. Those are all reasons for Fury to investigate SHIELD itself.
Due to Centipede's ability to steal from SHIELD, that just encourages more security and oversight on SHIELD's R&D to ensure that nothing is stolen or misused.
Project Insight becomes less compelling when SHIELD knows that they have a mole within the organization who can either sabotage it or learn enough about it to render it useless.
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
isn't benefiting Hydra as a whole. Before Cap 2, no one in SHIELD even suspected Hydra's involvement. By revealing the existence of the Clairvoyance, Hydra jeopardizes their secrecy within SHIELD. Letting SHIELD know that they have a mole would only encourage greater oversight and make it harder for Hydra to manipulate SHIELD. Also, the Clairvoyant's security breaches could have delayed the development of Project Insight.
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
Centipede can serve three purposes. First is R&D that isn't traceable to SHIELD. They can develop weapon systems and enhancements that SHIELD doesn't know about. Second is that they are an outside threat. Something for Fury to send people chasing rather then looking inwards. A distraction. The third is that the side effects of their R&D allow for them to reach for more control and more funding. Project Insight becomes a more compelling project when you aren't just chasing normal terrorists, but terrorists who can make more people with Extremis. It fans the flames of fear. Which further's HYDRA's long term goals. Sure it works against them in the short term, but in the long run there is a lot of upside.
Except all those things are negated by Centipede's actions and the Clairvoyant.
Their R&D not being traceable to SHIELD is nice but by revealing their existence to SHIELD, they're only hindering their own progress.
They're not just an outside threat since they have a mole within SHIELD, they steal tech from SHIELD, and they try to recruit from SHIELD. Those are all reasons for Fury to investigate SHIELD itself.
Due to Centipede's ability to steal from SHIELD, that just encourages more security and oversight on SHIELD's R&D to ensure that nothing is stolen or misused.
Project Insight becomes less compelling when SHIELD knows that they have a mole within the organization who can either sabotage it or learn enough about it to render it useless.
More Cap2 Spoilers:
Tech stolen from SHIELD doesn't trigger an investigation that leads to HYDRA inside SHIELD. It leads to one person who is expendable. It's the kind of fairly standard counter-intelligence operation they would already be conducting normally. Same with Centipede's recruitment. Those are standard counter-intelligence investigations you run to expose moles. Which isn't the same as exposing the massive hidden conspiracy within SHIELD. When said moles are found, they go "I did it for the money" the counter-intell guys find the money and thus it ends. Increased security and oversight on SHIELD R&D doesn't really matter that much. Centipede is pretty clearly doing it's own work. Jump started by SHIELD tech but with other elements grabbed as well. And given how close HYDRA feels it was to kicking off it's master plan it doesn't matter at all for future tech transfers.
And that doesn't make Project Insight less compelling. Pretty much the opposite. Particularly the predictive algorithms part. If I can predict future terrorists, I can predict future moles. So you justify tighter security on the project which means more budget. And of course if there are mole attempts from outside terrorist organizations, then that must mean we're on the right track is a pretty easy line to feed oversight committees for more funding.
As for AoS, it wouldn't make much sense for the Clairvoyant or Centipede to be part of Hydra. Hydra had no problem operating within SHIELD and having SHIELD do its dirty work for decades, so why would it suddenly need to start an organization that works against SHIELD? If anything, the Clairvoyant and Centipede should be working against Hydra.
Cap2 spoilers
Because HYDRA works in cells. Just look at how Baron Strucker said he was going to offer up other HYDRA cells to defend his own. Sometimes it's about working together, and sometimes it's about survival. Two HYDRA cells (one in SHIELD and one outside) might occasionally work at cross purposes for the benefit of HYDRA as a whole.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
isn't benefiting Hydra as a whole. Before Cap 2, no one in SHIELD even suspected Hydra's involvement. By revealing the existence of the Clairvoyance, Hydra jeopardizes their secrecy within SHIELD. Letting SHIELD know that they have a mole would only encourage greater oversight and make it harder for Hydra to manipulate SHIELD. Also, the Clairvoyant's security breaches could have delayed the development of Project Insight.
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
Centipede can serve three purposes. First is R&D that isn't traceable to SHIELD. They can develop weapon systems and enhancements that SHIELD doesn't know about. Second is that they are an outside threat. Something for Fury to send people chasing rather then looking inwards. A distraction. The third is that the side effects of their R&D allow for them to reach for more control and more funding. Project Insight becomes a more compelling project when you aren't just chasing normal terrorists, but terrorists who can make more people with Extremis. It fans the flames of fear. Which further's HYDRA's long term goals. Sure it works against them in the short term, but in the long run there is a lot of upside.
Except all those things are negated by Centipede's actions and the Clairvoyant.
Their R&D not being traceable to SHIELD is nice but by revealing their existence to SHIELD, they're only hindering their own progress.
They're not just an outside threat since they have a mole within SHIELD, they steal tech from SHIELD, and they try to recruit from SHIELD. Those are all reasons for Fury to investigate SHIELD itself.
Due to Centipede's ability to steal from SHIELD, that just encourages more security and oversight on SHIELD's R&D to ensure that nothing is stolen or misused.
Project Insight becomes less compelling when SHIELD knows that they have a mole within the organization who can either sabotage it or learn enough about it to render it useless.
More Cap2 Spoilers:
Tech stolen from SHIELD doesn't trigger an investigation that leads to HYDRA inside SHIELD. It leads to one person who is expendable. It's the kind of fairly standard counter-intelligence operation they would already be conducting normally. Same with Centipede's recruitment. Those are standard counter-intelligence investigations you run to expose moles. Which isn't the same as exposing the massive hidden conspiracy within SHIELD. When said moles are found, they go "I did it for the money" the counter-intell guys find the money and thus it ends. Increased security and oversight on SHIELD R&D doesn't really matter that much. Centipede is pretty clearly doing it's own work. Jump started by SHIELD tech but with other elements grabbed as well. And given how close HYDRA feels it was to kicking off it's master plan it doesn't matter at all for future tech transfers.
And that doesn't make Project Insight less compelling. Pretty much the opposite. Particularly the predictive algorithms part. If I can predict future terrorists, I can predict future moles. So you justify tighter security on the project which means more budget. And of course if there are mole attempts from outside terrorist organizations, then that must mean we're on the right track is a pretty easy line to feed oversight committees for more funding.
That would only be true if all the leaks are low level. However, Centipede's ability to infiltrate and predict SHIELD's actions shows that there are very high level moles. Heck, they suspect the Clairvoyant as someone who is aware of almost all of SHIELD's secrets.
Centipede's actions are motivating Fury and legit SHIELD leaders to do some really in-depth investigations, not simply accepting every security breach as isolated and easily dismissed incidents. Coulson has the same clearance level as Captain America, which is just two level below Fury, and Coulson knows that the Clairvoyant has access to information that only someone above him can get.
Given what Fury knows about the Clairvoyant, he should suspect that the Clairvoyant has knowledge of Project Insight, that's a huge security breach that compromises the entire project.
Even the out of spoiler text is starting to get spoilery, because it's so influenced by whatever happens in the movie. You are answering spoiled text in unspoiled text.
Its already been stated by the mods, @poshniallo, that because of how much SHIELD is tied to Cap2, its valid conversation for this thread, so long as the conversation is on how Cap2 effects AoS. I wasn't comfortable with that, so I left the thread until I saw the movie. Now that I have seen Cap2, I greatly appreciate the conversation in this thread.
Discussing some spoilers regarding Cap2 is unavoidable in a show tied directly into those events, so there will be no blanket "No Cap2 Discussion" rule in here. However, please try to keep discussion of Cap2 within the narrow confines of stuff directly related to Agents of SHIELD. I have no way of knowing if this is the case at the moment, because fuck if I'm going to click on any of that stuff before I've seen the movie. But as a courtesy, please try to follow those guidelines.
Also, please continue to clearly label any Cap2 spoilers, paying close attention to quotes or others things that might accidentally swallow whatever labels are there. If your post contains any Cap2 spoilers, a glance at your post should make this clear without having to open up any quote trees or spoiler tags. Anything which does not have labels will assumed to contain AoS spoilers only. Anything posted containing Cap2 spoilers without clear Cap2 labels will be infractable. And also I might drive to your house and punch you in the goddamn face, depending on how spoilery it is.
Everyone seems to be doing fine on these points, just wanted to reiterate.
Just spoiler the whole damn reply except for "Cap2 spoilers" or "AoS/End of the Beginning" or whatever for context.
My guess is that one of the algorithms has gone rogue and created A.I.M within the Hydra/SHIELD Organization. Which will become the basics of the Ultron project seen in Avengers 2 if Antman doesn't come out first.
Damn you Jdarksun, I was just about to do the same exact thing.
If you're replying to shit labeled Cap2 Spoilers and your post isn't in spoilers....well odds are you're being a goose. You'll definitely look like one to those who haven't seen the movie yet.
If you have seen Cap 2, you should know that basically all text in this thread is either going to be: A) inside spoiler tags, or from people who haven't seen the movie.
Too much happens in the movie to have a spoiler free discussion about the show at the moment.
If you have seen Cap 2, you should know that basically all text in this thread is either going to be: A) inside spoiler tags, or from people who haven't seen the movie.
Too much happens in the movie to have a spoiler free discussion about the show at the moment.
That's how it should be. It isn't how it is. And people will continue to slip and spoil Cap 2.
Posts
I don't think that tracks.
Granted you admit he may stay dead, but still, the comparison makes zero sense.
I was just giving examples of other characters
Good point.
the rockets were kinda lame
CAP 2 SPOILERS ALL UP INS
SERIOUSLY DON'T CLICK THESE JEFFE
DO NOT CLICK, MANY SPOILS
Cap 2 spoiler
(Cap 2 spoilers)
Veeeerrrrry subtle foreshadowing?
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
if only there was a marvel movie thread
Let me point you in the right direction.
EDIT:
Nexus, The movie clearly shows three major plot point from the show and right now we can only guess how much they will interact. But you can't really talk about the show without referencing the movie at this point because they're tied together.
In case anyone's wondering here's the 3 points I took from the movie:
Cap2 spoiler:
Cap 2 spoilers
But it seems that the stuff that brought him back is absolutely deep within the Hydra camp, on the Hydra side of things. The Guest House was off the books, staffed by non-SHIELD people and super hostile.
So why would the Clairvoyant be after the secret to Coulson living if Hydra are the ones making the stuff and hiding it?
So maybe the Guest House is off the books because Fury was already super suspicious and moved the alien and the stuff off site? Which would be bad, because then the team took two of the good guys, who were contracted out by Fury.
The only thing I can think of is the "what happened when you died" is a misdirection. Maybe the Clairvoyant doesn't need to know it in the sense of "How did you come back?", but in the sense of "You were never a detected threat before your death, and once you died, you suddenly became a HUGE threat to Hydra and how did I not predict that?"
Because if the Guest House was a Hydra run facility, which it absolutely seems to be, it knows how Coulson came back. And it let it happen, to a certain extent, because Pierce knows Coulson is alive for sure, if Sitwell does.
The whole thing makes me think as much as it seems like Zola is the clairvoyant, it can't be. It has to be a thing designed to combat Hydra...maybe A.I.M. developed a program like Zola in attempts to get one step ahead...M.O.D.O.K...
It's also one thing to have those two events occur in the same movie, but having someone appear to die in a movie and then be alive later on the show would be a tough sell.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
What?
That is the entire premise Agents of SHIELD is based on.
Agent Coulson begs to differ.
(although I totally get your point and agree with you, I'm just being an ass)
That's the joke.
Cap2/AoS spoilers:
I really liked Sitwell, damnit. He had a sense of humor about all the craziness that surrounds them.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Cap2
and I feel like it would have been a way bigger deal internally at SHIELD if Fury brought Coulson back and then just said "Don't worry about it." A ton of people know how it happened, and were involved. Sitwell absolutely knew what happened.
So it makes more sense that Hydra knows all about how it happened, and the Clairvoyant is either not related to Hydra at all, or isn't interested in the actual ressurection.
Especially after the mid-credits stinger, I can't see Hydra being THAT phased by the dead coming back.
My guess would be a third party (The Hive?) that Fury learned about during his time as a spy, and kept off the books in exchange for access to their advanced tech.
Fury was into keeping secrets long before he knew about Hydra's return.
Also, as soon as they talked about Zola's algorithm my brain pinged "Clairvoyant".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a different Zola working in every HYDRA cell.
I am so hype for the next episode now.
Except the conflict between Centipede and SHIELD
What Hydra accomplished within SHIELD is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Centipede has done. They shaped major world events for decades, acquired a ton of advanced technology, and almost gained the ability to eliminate any potential enemy they want. It makes a lot more sense to preserve Hydra's position within SHIELD.
Cap2 spoilers
And Dethlok attacked Blake, and not May.
Maaaaaaaaaaan this is getting crazy.
EDIT: The second I get a computer with editing software running I am doing this:
Garrett: "Hell, you took two in the gut...more than Sitwell here has ever done."
SMASH CUT
*Sitwell getting pancaked by a semi*
Except all those things are negated by Centipede's actions and the Clairvoyant.
They're not just an outside threat since they have a mole within SHIELD, they steal tech from SHIELD, and they try to recruit from SHIELD. Those are all reasons for Fury to investigate SHIELD itself.
Due to Centipede's ability to steal from SHIELD, that just encourages more security and oversight on SHIELD's R&D to ensure that nothing is stolen or misused.
Project Insight becomes less compelling when SHIELD knows that they have a mole within the organization who can either sabotage it or learn enough about it to render it useless.
More Cap2 Spoilers:
And that doesn't make Project Insight less compelling. Pretty much the opposite. Particularly the predictive algorithms part. If I can predict future terrorists, I can predict future moles. So you justify tighter security on the project which means more budget. And of course if there are mole attempts from outside terrorist organizations, then that must mean we're on the right track is a pretty easy line to feed oversight committees for more funding.
That would only be true if all the leaks are low level. However, Centipede's ability to infiltrate and predict SHIELD's actions shows that there are very high level moles. Heck, they suspect the Clairvoyant as someone who is aware of almost all of SHIELD's secrets.
Centipede's actions are motivating Fury and legit SHIELD leaders to do some really in-depth investigations, not simply accepting every security breach as isolated and easily dismissed incidents. Coulson has the same clearance level as Captain America, which is just two level below Fury, and Coulson knows that the Clairvoyant has access to information that only someone above him can get.
Please go talk about Cap 2 in the Marvel thread?
It would be quite considerate.
Just spoiler the whole damn reply except for "Cap2 spoilers" or "AoS/End of the Beginning" or whatever for context.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
If you're replying to shit labeled Cap2 Spoilers and your post isn't in spoilers....well odds are you're being a goose. You'll definitely look like one to those who haven't seen the movie yet.
Don't do that, please.
And I still think it's pretty inconsiderate. I wouldn't do it myself.
If you have seen Cap 2, you should know that basically all text in this thread is either going to be: A) inside spoiler tags, or
Too much happens in the movie to have a spoiler free discussion about the show at the moment.
That's how it should be. It isn't how it is. And people will continue to slip and spoil Cap 2.