In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.
I doubt that would hold up as a first degree robbery. Sounds like second degree to me.
Still a class B felony, which could lead to a second degree murder charge.
For whom? Brown? By running away he caused his own murder? By Johnson? Who stood there and did nothing?
The second degree murder charge is the stretchiest of stretches
they were allegedly stopped by darren wilson for not standing on the sidewalksuspicion of robbery around 7-8 minutes after the robbery occurred. how many minutes after leaving the scene of a crime does it take before you are not considered in flight from said scene? is there a hard limit defined somewhere else in missouri's statutes, because it's not listed in the criteria for second degree murder.
(2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.
2. Murder in the second degree is a class A felony, and the punishment for second degree murder shall be in addition to the punishment for commission of a related felony or attempted felony, other than murder or manslaughter.
I would like to know why they still have not released any information about the shooting, but keep releasing mountains of information about the supposed robbery
In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.
I doubt that would hold up as a first degree robbery. Sounds like second degree to me.
Still a class B felony, which could lead to a second degree murder charge.
For whom? Brown? By running away he caused his own murder? By Johnson? Who stood there and did nothing?
The second degree murder charge is the stretchiest of stretches
they were allegedly stopped by darren wilson for not standing on the sidewalksuspicion of robbery around 7-8 minutes after the robbery occurred. how many minutes after leaving the scene of a crime does it take before you are not considered in flight from said scene? is there a hard limit defined somewhere else in missouri's statutes, because it's not listed in the criteria for second degree murder.
(2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.
2. Murder in the second degree is a class A felony, and the punishment for second degree murder shall be in addition to the punishment for commission of a related felony or attempted felony, other than murder or manslaughter.
Yes I already posted the statute.
Causation is required to charge/convict someone of a crime. Felony murder is deisgned to capture situations where a person robs a store, hits the clerk on the head without intending to kill them (or maybe hits someone on the way out of the store) and that person ends up bleeding out and dying.
How would you prove that Brown or Johnson CAUSED Brown's murder? Or that the murder was a RESULT of the perpetration of the felony robbery? The link is tenuous at best. I don't think it would ever stand up in court.
The limits of what is the "commission" of the crime or flight therefrom are probably defined in case law but I'm not going to do a search right now.
I would say they assess causation the same way that they assessed causation when they charged Henry Davis with 4 counts of property damage because he got blood on the cops shirts when they beat the shit out of him.
I would say they assess causation the same way that they assessed causation when they charged Henry Davis with 4 counts of property damage because he got blood on the cops shirts when they beat the shit out of him.
They've got a few more people looking over their shoulder on this one.
I would say they assess causation the same way that they assessed causation when they charged Henry Davis with 4 counts of property damage because he got blood on the cops shirts when they beat the shit out of him.
There's plenty of reason to withhold information from the public when your goal is to justify your militarized police force's targeted use of Jim Crow tactics.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited August 2014
You know I'm starting to think that...the robbery and the incident with the officer might have been completely unrelated.
I mean you have that report, the police chief saying nothing about it until now, the fact that his friend wasn't charged with anything until now.
Like...seriously what the hell is going on? Like is this one big coincidence or did the police department fuck things up this badly?
Why are we even giving this bullshit narrative credibility? There is no fucking way that the story the Ferguson police have told is reasonable. None of this has played out as it should have if that'd been the case. If Michael Brown was a suspect in the robbery, why would a police officer pull up his car next to him and talk to him through the window?! Why would Michael Brown then REACH FOR THE OFFICER'S GUN THROUGH THE WINDOW OF A MOVING CAR? Suddenly, the police that are fucking 'roiding out with the MRAPs and assault rifles Wednesday were the fucking Keystone Cops on Saturday?
They just fucking spent the time since Saturday looking for any bullshit story they could paste together to cover their guy's ass. (Which is why I'm continually pissed at how our local judges keep letting cops get away with sharing their stories and communicating through their lawyers before having to make their notes on shooting incidents.)
There's plenty of reason to withhold information from the public when your goal is to justify your militarized police force's targeted use of Jim Crow tactics.
Well yes, I suppose I implied no GOOD reason to do so in my post.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Yeah none of it matters anymore. The entire media has moved on from "unarmed black teen shot to death" to "Michael Brown robbed someone".
They've successfully covered their asses now.
I know, and it's ridiculous and it just makes me so fucking angry
As a teenager, I did stupid shit, obviously. As a young adult I did stupid shit, obviously! One of those stupid shit things was shoplifting a keychain from the Disney store in the mall. I wanted it, I thought it was overpriced at $20, I was a stupid shitty teenager, so I walked out of the store with it without paying.
What if a cop stopped me inside the mall on suspicion of committing the robbery, there was a struggle where I kicked and screamed and resisted, and he shot me, and I died? Would it be an acceptable casualty? I think it's obvious that if you re-imagine the situation in a pedestrian (EDIT: ie "default" or majority-white) setting it becomes universally horrifying for anyone to consider. But because Michael Brown is black, and not beyond even a smidgen of a shadow of a doubt one of the "good ones," in a black neighborhood, well, he brought it on himself.
I'm kind of exhausted by this bullshit but I also know I am privileged to be able to tune out of it when I want. Black Americans around this country never can.
Yeah none of it matters anymore. The entire media has moved on from "unarmed black teen shot to death" to "Michael Brown robbed someone".
They've successfully covered their asses now.
I know, and it's ridiculous and it just makes me so fucking angry
As a teenager, I did stupid shit, obviously. As a young adult I did stupid shit, obviously! One of those stupid shit things was shoplifting a keychain from the Disney store in the mall. I wanted it, I thought it was overpriced at $20, I was a stupid shitty teenager, so I walked out of the store with it without paying.
What if a cop stopped me inside the mall on suspicion of committing the robbery, there was a struggle where I kicked and screamed and resisted, and he shot me, and I died? Would it be an acceptable casualty? I think it's obvious that if you re-imagine the situation in a pedestrian setting it becomes universally horrifying for anyone to consider. But because Michael Brown is black, and not beyond even a smidgen of a shadow of a doubt one of the "good ones," in a black neighborhood, well, he brought it on himself.
I'm kind of exhausted by this bullshit but I also know I am privileged to be able to tune out of it when I want. Black Americans around this country never can.
I hear WalMart's instituting a new program to combat shoplifting. WalMart greeters will be armed with M16s and will fire immediately upon activation of the RFID alarms.
Now we see why letting police wait 24 hours before having to give their side of the story is bullshit.
It's actually not bad policy to wait to interview the involved officer, due to how brain chemistry, memory, and trauma work.
However that is no reason for the investigating agency to withhold information from the public.
....are you in favor of them waiting 24 hours to interview any potential suspects in a murder?
Police typically want to get statements from parties as soon as possible because of those same issues and it does a number of things that are disadvantageous to the interviewed party.
If anything, I'm in favor for cops being held to a much harsher standard than your average citizen.
Ferguson's Police Chief is either really bad at talking, or is now taking this back into the "ok, so he was just straight up murdered then" territory...
You know I'm starting to think that...the robbery and the incident with the officer might have been completely unrelated.
I mean you have that report, the police chief saying nothing about it until now, the fact that his friend wasn't charged with anything until now.
Like...seriously what the hell is going on? Like is this one big coincidence or did the police department fuck things up this badly?
Ferguson was a time bomb, something would have started this sooner or later. That entire town's government and police department are going to need to be changed from top to bottom to get rid of the racist atmosphere - which isn't going to happen. It's also a state wide problem with a governor who gives no fucks until Obama gives him a call.
Now we see why letting police wait 24 hours before having to give their side of the story is bullshit.
It's actually not bad policy to wait to interview the involved officer, due to how brain chemistry, memory, and trauma work.
However that is no reason for the investigating agency to withhold information from the public.
....are you in favor of them waiting 24 hours to interview any potential suspects in a murder?
Police typically want to get statements from parties as soon as possible because of those same issues and it does a number of things that are disadvantageous to the interviewed party.
If anything, I'm in favor for cops being held to a much harsher standard than your average citizen.
I think the science backs up the idea that you will get a more detailed statement and better memories after a traumatic event if you wait for the brain to process and actually form the memories. I don't think it would be unreasonable for part of the policy for officers involved in shootings to be required to be isolated from other witnesses/officer until after their statement is taken.
Ferguson's Police Chief is either really bad at talking, or is now taking this back into the "ok, so he was just straight up murdered then" territory...
Now we see why letting police wait 24 hours before having to give their side of the story is bullshit.
It's actually not bad policy to wait to interview the involved officer, due to how brain chemistry, memory, and trauma work.
However that is no reason for the investigating agency to withhold information from the public.
....are you in favor of them waiting 24 hours to interview any potential suspects in a murder?
Police typically want to get statements from parties as soon as possible because of those same issues and it does a number of things that are disadvantageous to the interviewed party.
If anything, I'm in favor for cops being held to a much harsher standard than your average citizen.
I think the science backs up the idea that you will get a more detailed statement and better memories after a traumatic event if you wait for the brain to process and actually form the memories. I don't think it would be unreasonable for part of the policy for officers involved in shootings to be required to be isolated from other witnesses/officer until after their statement is taken.
Only if you isolate them from others whose interactions can impact and shape their recollection of the events.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Ferguson's Police Chief is either really bad at talking, or is now taking this back into the "ok, so he was just straight up murdered then" territory...
Ferguson's Police Chief is either really bad at talking, or is now taking this back into the "ok, so he was just straight up murdered then" territory...
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
Now we see why letting police wait 24 hours before having to give their side of the story is bullshit.
It's actually not bad policy to wait to interview the involved officer, due to how brain chemistry, memory, and trauma work.
However that is no reason for the investigating agency to withhold information from the public.
....are you in favor of them waiting 24 hours to interview any potential suspects in a murder?
Police typically want to get statements from parties as soon as possible because of those same issues and it does a number of things that are disadvantageous to the interviewed party.
If anything, I'm in favor for cops being held to a much harsher standard than your average citizen.
I think the science backs up the idea that you will get a more detailed statement and better memories after a traumatic event if you wait for the brain to process and actually form the memories. I don't think it would be unreasonable for part of the policy for officers involved in shootings to be required to be isolated from other witnesses/officer until after their statement is taken.
Only if you isolate them from others whose interactions can impact and shape their recollection of the events.
I imagine there are some people right now having Brown's photo shoved under their noses and being asked "are you SURE this wasn't the young man you saw in the convenience store? Please take another look."
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
How about we give this to witnesses and suspects too?
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
The ultimate problem is that you're expecting friends and comrades in arms to police each other, when they're much more likely to cover each others' asses, so their ass will be covered when the time comes.
Everything comes down to basic human nature in this case.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
The ultimate problem is that you're expecting friends and comrades in arms to police each other, when they're much more likely to cover each others' asses, so their ass will be covered when the time comes.
Everything comes down to basic human nature in this case.
That's why I like the idea of a third party law enforcement group to do that, like the FBI.
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
How about we give this to witnesses and suspects too?
The nature of responding to crime immediately often requires that officers take immediate statements. But I'm all for follow up interviews after the traumatic event, and increased training on trauma-informed interviewing.
If the person is a suspect, it would be possible to hold them for a while before interviewing as part of the process. Unfortunately cops can't isolate victims/witnesses from others, but they could do follow-up interviews to learn if the person remembered more details.
Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo. police officer who was identified Friday as the cop that killed an unarmed black teenager last weekend, reportedly skipped town with his family days ago.
USA Today reported that no one answered the door Friday at Wilson's Crestwood, Mo. home. A police officer keeping watch over the home told the newspaper that Wilson had left town with his family days ago.
There is certainly room for improvement of the policy for officer involved shootings, I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm saying there is a basis for the waiting for the full interview part of it that is not necessarily "so we can get our lies together."
The ultimate problem is that you're expecting friends and comrades in arms to police each other, when they're much more likely to cover each others' asses, so their ass will be covered when the time comes.
Everything comes down to basic human nature in this case.
Well, yes, no policy or rules will prevent dishonest people from being dishonest, or undo years of thin blue line police culture.
Posts
they were allegedly stopped by darren wilson for not standing on the sidewalksuspicion of robbery around 7-8 minutes after the robbery occurred. how many minutes after leaving the scene of a crime does it take before you are not considered in flight from said scene? is there a hard limit defined somewhere else in missouri's statutes, because it's not listed in the criteria for second degree murder.
(2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.
2. Murder in the second degree is a class A felony, and the punishment for second degree murder shall be in addition to the punishment for commission of a related felony or attempted felony, other than murder or manslaughter.
no wait I know why
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Yes I already posted the statute.
Causation is required to charge/convict someone of a crime. Felony murder is deisgned to capture situations where a person robs a store, hits the clerk on the head without intending to kill them (or maybe hits someone on the way out of the store) and that person ends up bleeding out and dying.
How would you prove that Brown or Johnson CAUSED Brown's murder? Or that the murder was a RESULT of the perpetration of the felony robbery? The link is tenuous at best. I don't think it would ever stand up in court.
The limits of what is the "commission" of the crime or flight therefrom are probably defined in case law but I'm not going to do a search right now.
but hey their story is shit anyways
They've got a few more people looking over their shoulder on this one.
Looking for more people to shoot
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Still don't have their side of the relevant story.
Well, it does give them plenty of time to come up with a very convenient cover story.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
It's actually not bad policy to wait to interview the involved officer, due to how brain chemistry, memory, and trauma work.
However that is no reason for the investigating agency to withhold information from the public.
I mean you have that report, the police chief saying nothing about it until now, the fact that his friend wasn't charged with anything until now.
Like...seriously what the hell is going on? Like is this one big coincidence or did the police department fuck things up this badly?
Why are we even giving this bullshit narrative credibility? There is no fucking way that the story the Ferguson police have told is reasonable. None of this has played out as it should have if that'd been the case. If Michael Brown was a suspect in the robbery, why would a police officer pull up his car next to him and talk to him through the window?! Why would Michael Brown then REACH FOR THE OFFICER'S GUN THROUGH THE WINDOW OF A MOVING CAR? Suddenly, the police that are fucking 'roiding out with the MRAPs and assault rifles Wednesday were the fucking Keystone Cops on Saturday?
They just fucking spent the time since Saturday looking for any bullshit story they could paste together to cover their guy's ass. (Which is why I'm continually pissed at how our local judges keep letting cops get away with sharing their stories and communicating through their lawyers before having to make their notes on shooting incidents.)
Well yes, I suppose I implied no GOOD reason to do so in my post.
I know, and it's ridiculous and it just makes me so fucking angry
As a teenager, I did stupid shit, obviously. As a young adult I did stupid shit, obviously! One of those stupid shit things was shoplifting a keychain from the Disney store in the mall. I wanted it, I thought it was overpriced at $20, I was a stupid shitty teenager, so I walked out of the store with it without paying.
What if a cop stopped me inside the mall on suspicion of committing the robbery, there was a struggle where I kicked and screamed and resisted, and he shot me, and I died? Would it be an acceptable casualty? I think it's obvious that if you re-imagine the situation in a pedestrian (EDIT: ie "default" or majority-white) setting it becomes universally horrifying for anyone to consider. But because Michael Brown is black, and not beyond even a smidgen of a shadow of a doubt one of the "good ones," in a black neighborhood, well, he brought it on himself.
I'm kind of exhausted by this bullshit but I also know I am privileged to be able to tune out of it when I want. Black Americans around this country never can.
NNID: Hakkekage
It's totally possible that the officer who shot Brown didn't know about the robbery or wasn't confronting him about that.
I hear WalMart's instituting a new program to combat shoplifting. WalMart greeters will be armed with M16s and will fire immediately upon activation of the RFID alarms.
....are you in favor of them waiting 24 hours to interview any potential suspects in a murder?
Police typically want to get statements from parties as soon as possible because of those same issues and it does a number of things that are disadvantageous to the interviewed party.
If anything, I'm in favor for cops being held to a much harsher standard than your average citizen.
[ed] Dis guy, Jesus...
Ferguson was a time bomb, something would have started this sooner or later. That entire town's government and police department are going to need to be changed from top to bottom to get rid of the racist atmosphere - which isn't going to happen. It's also a state wide problem with a governor who gives no fucks until Obama gives him a call.
I think the science backs up the idea that you will get a more detailed statement and better memories after a traumatic event if you wait for the brain to process and actually form the memories. I don't think it would be unreasonable for part of the policy for officers involved in shootings to be required to be isolated from other witnesses/officer until after their statement is taken.
You wait too long and you start to forget details
or worse, start making up a new story
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Oh good now we're back to police sanctioned murder
cool cool cool
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Only if you isolate them from others whose interactions can impact and shape their recollection of the events.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
ALSO
THEN WHY ARE YOU RELEASING ANYTHING ABOUT THE ROBBERY OTHER THAN CHARACTER ASSASSINATION
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Change the story enough times and people just get tired and move on.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
That also assumes they're going to do that and not come up with a cover story with their buddies on the force.
I'm not sure if this beats the LAPD manhunt where they just started shooting at every car
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
What about the hunt for Christoper Dorner?
This...is top 5 one of the most magnificent police-related clusterfucks I have witnessed in my entire life.
I imagine there are some people right now having Brown's photo shoved under their noses and being asked "are you SURE this wasn't the young man you saw in the convenience store? Please take another look."
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
How about we give this to witnesses and suspects too?
The ultimate problem is that you're expecting friends and comrades in arms to police each other, when they're much more likely to cover each others' asses, so their ass will be covered when the time comes.
Everything comes down to basic human nature in this case.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
That's why I like the idea of a third party law enforcement group to do that, like the FBI.
The nature of responding to crime immediately often requires that officers take immediate statements. But I'm all for follow up interviews after the traumatic event, and increased training on trauma-informed interviewing.
If the person is a suspect, it would be possible to hold them for a while before interviewing as part of the process. Unfortunately cops can't isolate victims/witnesses from others, but they could do follow-up interviews to learn if the person remembered more details.
Linky.
Well, that seems good, right? People who should, at the very least, be under investigation can just up and take a vacation, right?
Well, yes, no policy or rules will prevent dishonest people from being dishonest, or undo years of thin blue line police culture.