As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Trespasser in my yard. What next?(B.C.)
Khavall
British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
So today around lunch(1:30PM), there was a kids soccer game going on in the field directly outside of my back yard, which is fine.
A ball was kicked over my fence and landed in my bushes, where it was not visible from the outside.
The yard is entirely fenced, and the gate to the back(Which is where it opens to the field) is locked from the inside. The gate at the front is latched, but not locked.
I have a Shiba Inu, who is not violent at all, but he does not like children, is territorial, and at the time was eating a bone in the yard.
Now here's where the fun starts. Despite my fiancee and I being home, an adult(either a parent or a supervisor of the kids league), unable to open the locked gate, without any notification, boosted the child(10ish) over the fence to retrieve the ball. Our dog immediately got a bit defensive(Since, you know, unknown kid in the yard while he's eating his bone), and walked towards the kid. At this time, my fiancee was going out to the back, and noticed the kid walking away from the dog. When we confronted both the kid and the adult, the kid didn't say much, and the adult used the excuse that they were just looking for their ball. We told them to get out of our yard immediately. At first the adult protested, before claiming that the kid couldn't get out, because the gate was locked. He then asked us if we found the ball to contact the league that plays there.
So.
So far we've contacted the League and mentioned our relative displeasure at the adult tossing a kid over a locked fence into a yard with a dog, we've contacted the city about it as well. We called the police and they said that it didn't "count" as trespassing because it happened during the day, despite the fact that in the Trespassing act it's doesn't mention anything about day/night, and that's a ridiculous law.
Currently all offices are closed, since it's Sunday, but we've left a bunch of messages.
So now the question:
What's the next step? Are there other places to contact? Is there a way of further dissuading trespassers than locking a fence(And preferably that doesn't involve putting up big signs that make it look like we have stuff that can be stolen). Should I be keeping some sort of record of everything that happened? We didn't get the parents name or number because we were mostly concerned about getting them the hell off of our property.
Also, if our dog had attacked the kid while defending his yard and bone, would we have been liable? Is there a way to avoid any problems like that if people break onto our property again?
TL:DR: A guy sent a kid over our locked fence to break onto our property, putting the child at risk and breaking onto our property. We're furious and don't want this to happen again. Is there anything we're not thinking of?
A ball was kicked over my fence and landed in my bushes, where it was not visible from the outside.
The yard is entirely fenced, and the gate to the back(Which is where it opens to the field) is locked from the inside. The gate at the front is latched, but not locked.
I have a Shiba Inu, who is not violent at all, but he does not like children, is territorial, and at the time was eating a bone in the yard.
Now here's where the fun starts. Despite my fiancee and I being home, an adult(either a parent or a supervisor of the kids league), unable to open the locked gate, without any notification, boosted the child(10ish) over the fence to retrieve the ball. Our dog immediately got a bit defensive(Since, you know, unknown kid in the yard while he's eating his bone), and walked towards the kid. At this time, my fiancee was going out to the back, and noticed the kid walking away from the dog. When we confronted both the kid and the adult, the kid didn't say much, and the adult used the excuse that they were just looking for their ball. We told them to get out of our yard immediately. At first the adult protested, before claiming that the kid couldn't get out, because the gate was locked. He then asked us if we found the ball to contact the league that plays there.
So.
So far we've contacted the League and mentioned our relative displeasure at the adult tossing a kid over a locked fence into a yard with a dog, we've contacted the city about it as well. We called the police and they said that it didn't "count" as trespassing because it happened during the day, despite the fact that in the Trespassing act it's doesn't mention anything about day/night, and that's a ridiculous law.
Currently all offices are closed, since it's Sunday, but we've left a bunch of messages.
So now the question:
What's the next step? Are there other places to contact? Is there a way of further dissuading trespassers than locking a fence(And preferably that doesn't involve putting up big signs that make it look like we have stuff that can be stolen). Should I be keeping some sort of record of everything that happened? We didn't get the parents name or number because we were mostly concerned about getting them the hell off of our property.
Also, if our dog had attacked the kid while defending his yard and bone, would we have been liable? Is there a way to avoid any problems like that if people break onto our property again?
TL:DR: A guy sent a kid over our locked fence to break onto our property, putting the child at risk and breaking onto our property. We're furious and don't want this to happen again. Is there anything we're not thinking of?
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
It's not like it's a 2-3 foot tall picket fence either, that the kid just walked over, it's 6' tall and solid except for latticing for the top 6".
BTW, other than working as an apparently completely ineffective deterrent for people randomly walking onto our property, the reason the gate is locked is because in certain weather it will open on its own. We would like our dogs to not get out if that happens, to the gate's locked to prevent it from opening. There's no way that kid could've gotten back over the fence, so he would've had to have unlocked the gate, and it doesn't lock again from the outside. The park is near a busy street that's pretty easy to get to from our yard, assuming the gate is open.
Not a lawyer, but you likely would not have been liable, since he was trespassing. Though, you may want to invest in a 'Beware of Dog' sign for your fence.
And a good shakin' cane, for yourself.
To answer the original question.
Yes, a supervising parent sent a child into an unknown yard over a locked gate with a dog that he had no way of knowing if it was violent or not, in a criminal act.
Hey you know what? I was home. I was outside not 10 seconds after the kid jumped the locked fence gate. Could they not have waited goddamn 10 seconds to see if anyone was home? Could they not have gone around to the front and knocked on the door? Could they not have done literally anything than illegally breaking onto my property?
What if my dog had attacked the kid?
What if the kid had left via the gate, unlocking it and leaving it open, and my dog escaped and got hit by a car?
Heck, what if the kid wasn't with a soccer game and some random dude sent a kid over the fence to steal stuff? We would have no way of knowing until he had already jumped the locked fucking 6 foot tall fence and we confronted him.
But then you go and contact the police multiple times and the city over something like this? I mean, fair enough if they were testing your back door, but they literally were just in the yard to get the ball that was clearly there. You overreacted to a ridiculous degree. Thank christ you're not my neighbour.
Furthermore, if a six foot high fence, locked gates, and a guard dog can't keep a child out of your property I'm not entirely sure what else you want to do keep people at bay. Flood lights? Razor wire? Maybe closed circuit cameras and invest in a few guns?
Seriously, man, what's your problem here? This wasn't a random meth head hopping your fence to murder you and your family, it was a kid trying to get his ball back. Something you, I, and most people on this forum have done.
If a violation of your personal property (fence notwithstanding) sends you into an emotional tail spin where you go to an internet forum to clutch your proverbial pearls and wonder out loud 'What else could I have done from some STRANGER entering my PROPERTY?!' then my advice would have to be to move out of the city and buy a plot of land in the country.
Dude.
This is super key, because yes, he probably would be. Even if he was in the right according to what's written, how do you think a judge in a civil case would react to the image of a child being parked in front of him having been mauled by a dog?
Even if it's just to get a ball, going over someone's fence is extremely shitty. You can fucking knock / ring the doorbell and ask if you can retrieve the ball / frisbee / whatever that you tossed onto their property. People have pets that can act unpredictably around strangers, they have stuff they don't want you walking on / touching and it's a private Goddamn residence.
If it were me, I'd be a total asshole to the soccer league so that, at the very least, they know to avoid playing near your place (keep calling them to ask about your complaint & what they intend to do about it. Be polite, but pester them every day about it until they give you an answer you like or you feel that you've otherwise been sufficiently annoying). It's shitty to be known as the 'lawn Nazi' or whatever, but it's better than having some kid get bitten by your dog and then getting sued / ordered to have your dog put down / etc.
Really? A needy psychopath? Maybe calling the police (but calling the league was a good idea) was a bit much but you are going waaaaay too far there.
Its not weird to not want people in your back yard. He has a six foot privacy fence and a defensive dog breed. I think thats a pretty good indication of 'keep out' and an adult boosting a kid over the fence IS a violation of that indication. Not to mention shitty 'supervision'. Its also good to have a record of that kind of stuff. If it happens again and a kid gets bitten by the dog then being able to clearly point to previous attempts to keep people out is going to help.
@khavall
And yeah, I think a 'beware of dog' sign would be helpful.
We don't even live in a bad neighbourhood, we live in a good one, which is why we never really think about people randomly breaking onto the property.
Also, like.... really the dog isn't violent or aggressive, assuming random strangers don't invade his yard while he's eating a bone. It feels shitty to think that it's actually necessary to put up an extra sign like that.
Why not call the police? The people breaking into the yard broke the law, and it theory the police are exactly who you're supposed to call when someone breaks the law rather than trying to take matters into your own hands.
If we're going to talk about whether or not he would have been liable, it may be useful to cite some law instead of just baselessly speculating.
I am firmly on the "overreacting" / "angry old man" side.
Kids do dumb shit, and they make mistakes, and they don't really understand shit like that. And some kid going "Damn there's my ball, I don't want to have to talk to some random stranger adult just to get it back" is totally understandable.
If I had done anything else in that situation which didn't happen, I could totally understand people saying that I'm overreacting. Because yes, calling the police because a 10-year old kid walks into my yard is too much.
But a grown-assed man who was supposed to be in charge of the kids lifted the kid over into an unknown yard with an unknown dog after finding the gate was locked, without any attempt to contact the owners. When we told him to get out, his first response was to argue with us. A fucking adult went "Welp, you've lost your ball kids, who wants to break the damn law?!".
Would you be okay with me just walking into your place to chill, J? I mean, hey, I'm just there to chill, bro. I'm not breaking nothin'.
And even if you're going to claim that, sure, you'd totally be fine with strangers walking into your home so long as they fit some description of benign, not everyone shares this cavalier perspective. Some people really like privacy, and not only ought that privacy be respected, it's a legally protected right.
There's no reason to be tossing kids over a fence when you can just knock on the door.
The idea behind a 'Beware of Dog' sign is that it, in theory, it will give an adult pause before doing something relentlessly stupid like tossing their kid over your fence to be attacked by said dog.
I'm not sure if it would be effective or not (though if you live in a decent neighborhood, I doubt it would paint a target on your property).
@The Ender The guy wasn't just chilling in his home, it was a child trying to get a soccer ball back. Likewise, it wasn't a break in or an invasion of privacy he was trying to get a soccer ball back on a Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
I get where you guys are coming from, it's an invasion of privacy because someone went into your yard, but these things have context. Is it worth several phone calls to municipal authorities? Fuck, no. It's not. It makes you look paranoid at best and insane at worst.
@Khavall It doesn't even sound like you're really upset that a kid ended up in your yard. Your original post pleaded for options (beyond a locked gate and six foot fence) to keep a child out of your yard, but then you cringed at the idea of putting up a sign because it may paint your dog in an unfavorable light or invite people in to steal things.
Also, you don't seem to get the disconnect that you're willing to defend a six foot fence and lock your gate, but similarly unwilling to put up a sign to notify people that your Shiba Inu is around and will possibly attack people on sight who enter the yard uninvited by his/her owner.
I think you're more pissed off with the adult who put the kid in that position, which I agree with - it was a stupid thing done by a stupid person, but contacting the local government, police department, and then soliciting advice on how to better secure your property against children (who can clearly circumvent your current security so easily) is ridiculous.
if that were my backyard, I'd have freaked out. My privacy is extremely important to me, and I do not give two fucks why you feel you should be able to violate it, and what you feel the appropriate context is for invading my personal space.
It's great that you feel that your own privacy is up for grabs if the stars are right; quite a few people do not feel the same way, and the police are who you're supposed to call when you have a problem with people breaking the law, or so I'm told. It's not 'paranoid' or 'insane' just because you don't share the same perspective on privacy.
I would still complain, but be a bit more friendly about it. Tell the league that you would prefer that people come to your front door and ask for help getting their ball. Tell them you are concerned about the kids' safety and would rather help out.
if you want to post a sign post a no trespassing sign
Some of ya'll appear to be trippin'.
Also maybe put one up like, "Please contact homeowner to retrieve ball/ frisbee/whatever."
In a perfect world neither would be needed, but we don't live in a perfect world.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have a right to be annoyed, or talk to the soccer league, etc. But calling the cops, the city, and wondering what else he can do to avoid this is kinda going overboard. Best thing would be to speak to the soccer league, even if it's just so they can tell all their parents "that guy's really particular, so tread lightly".
I'm saying I would have called the police while it was happening.
Seriously?
Like, I get if it was an adult, or it was in the middle of the night. This was a kid trying to get his ball back. They did it the wrong way obviously, but what's the point of the police? To make sure everyone knows you're an asshole?
Yes, they were wrong to enter your property unauthorized. On the other hand they caused no damage and were there extremely briefly.
If you have an aggressive dog, put a sign up. Better yet maybe don't leave it unsupervised and untethered.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The kids parents were being absolute dumbshits, I can't believe they did that. They are lucky nothing happened.
But, that is also a pretty glaring fact about this: nothing really did happen. It's fine to call the non-emergency line to report trespassing, and absolutely right to call the league hosting these games and have them remind the soccer-loving dumbshit parents that trespassing is extremely dangerous. That was a very smart thing to do.
The cops saying trespassing can only happen at night is hilariously/depressingly bad police work. I'm not sure there is much to be done about that, though. If it keeps happening, maybe the local news station would be interested in calling them out on that, but with one incident, that really isn't much of a story.
If your dog bit the kid, I am almost certain you would not be considered liable for a trespasser, breaking into your property, being attacked by a dog. A beware of dog sign might be an ok investment, but as this seems like a one-off case of dumbshittery, I'm not sure that is worth it. I think it WOULD be worth contacting your local animal control office during business hours to ask them what exactly your risk/responsibility here is.
Other than that, this doesn't really seem like it was a huge issue on it's face (though emotionally/theoretically, definitely jarring and scary). But it's pretty much all done with, no one got hurt, and I don't really think there is much else to be done. You certainly CAN spend more time/effort/money beefing up security, but if this is your only security incident, it probably isn't worth it.
If it happens again, I would strongly chastise the parents about the fact that they just not only broke the law but, more importantly, willfully put their child's life in danger in order to avoid knocking on someone's door. Remind them that if you had an aggressively territorial rottweiler (which could have run out the dog door the second the child came down on the other side of that six foot fence), their child would likely not be alive by the time someone was able to get into the back yard. I would also let them know that you'll be heading over to the park to speak with the team's coach about the incident (and then do that).
Hopefully the league sends out an email to all the parents reminding them not to be fucking morons, and you're free of this from now on. Good luck.
It was in his yard behind a 6ft fence, I think that makes it safely confined.
Just put up a sign, it will give pause to anyone else with the bright idea of hoisting a child over your fence and make them more likely to just go knock on your door next time.
Contact and politely mention it to the league if you want, as @MulysaSempronius said be sure to phrase it as you being concerned for the safety of both the child and your dog. Being angry when you contact them will just make it more likely that they will ignore you as the cliche "get off my lawn" guy.
You have every right to be angry because people are wandering around near your house without your permission. However, I think the general consensus is that the situation could be handled differently. After all, you said that you were living in a relatively good neighborhood and the ball(?) league is probably comprised of your neighbors. And if they are/have been playing in the adjacent field, the ball will/would have been over your fence many more times.
I think you've done more than you can so far, though no good resolution was reached. From your side of the story, all that happened from the other party's perspective is:
a) You chased them away from your property without giving them back their ball
b) You've lodged complaints to the League
I would recommend that you find the ball, contact the league, explain why you are so angry, return the ball and draw up some sort of agreement or proper way of handling similar situations in the future. So, for example, the next time a ball is over your fence, the children are to ring your doorbell and ask for the ball. Or if you're not in, give the league your phone number so that they can contact you about the lost property. If you catch anyone trying to climb the fence, you get to keep their ball and/or whatever more serious consequence.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
apparently not!
I mean, if you get right down to the letter of the law, OP is in the right. If his dog had injured the kid, it's possible or even likely he would not have been liable.
But, so what? Is that a good outcome? You live in a neighborhood where kids play sports; balls in yards and other minor property rights 'violations' are gonna be a fact of life. Better to deal with that in a reasonable way than tilt at this windmill.
ed: the police told you that 'trespassing only happens at night' not because they're bad at their jobs or whatever, but because they know that actually prosecuting cases like this would be insanity.
Tell the league you don't want them playing near your house, if you're really attached to being obstinate about this. Put a sign up warning people about your dog.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would suggest you make the complaint to the league, so they can remind people not to throw kids over strange fences; and put up beware of dog signs on your fences.
I don't agree with this at all.
My parents live right on the back of a golf course, for example, and stray balls constantly go into their yard. It's not even fenced, yet nobody goes in to retrieve their ball. Why? Because it's not their property, and both the municipality & golf course take it seriously because people have kicked-up shitstorms in the past over it. You go into someone's backyard to get your ball and get caught, your membership with the course is cancelled - no refunds.
That's the kind of policy that only happens if you're an 'asshole' - also known as a reasonable adult - about people feeling like they own your backyard.
However, dog bite liability operate under what's colloquially known as the "one free bite rule", i.e. that a dog must have been established as having known dangerous propensities in order for a bite to result in strict liability. KDP is established either by 1) particular breeds or 2) previous bites - i.e. the "one free bite." This varies on a state by state basis, however. What is common, however, even among states that don't have the one bite rule, is that the victim has to have been lawfully on the property in order to recover.
Also however, certain states would also deny liability, even under strict liability analysis, for the fact that the trespasser is basically 100% negligent insofar as they literally needed help scaling a fence in order to commit the trespass that casually resulted in the dog bite. This isn't even the comparative negligence/contributory negligence analysis (negligence isn't a part of dog bite cases, again) but it's an edge case involving coming to a hazard.
As far as the trespass, the time of day does not matter (trespass, not 1700's burglary, here) and frankly if the kid startles the dog and DOES get bit then that's going to be a real pain in the ass to sort out, even though he's legally abso-fucking-lutely correct. Damages, afaik, aren't really awarded for this sort of thing though after a judgment - i.e. "nominal" damages. Depending on the state, there are statutes that will set damages.
Even better still, stay the fuck out of the yard. Even an unaggressive dog might get startled, given that there's a strange person trespassing in the yard after hopping the fence. He has a fence up, he is under no obligation to chain up his dog in his own fenced yard; especially a yard with a 6-foot good-neighbor fence, not a little 3-foot chain link. Also: that's his yard - If I (or Khavall) wanted kids running around outside and no way to let our dog outside, we'd have stayed renting in an apartment.
Don't want to get the police called on you because that's uncomfortable and embarrassing? Don't jump fences into peoples' yards.
The point of the police is to establish a paper trail, especially because an adult was the one who boosted the kid over, and because the adult apparently doesn't have the common decency and/or sense to stay out of fenced yards.
Yeah, it must be.
Kid "collecting ball from backyard" =/= Kid boosted by adult over 6 foot privacy fence to go look for his ball, with dog in backyard, without the adult having knocked to see if the homeowner was home first.
Have I hopped over a fence to get a ball back? Sure, but it was a 3-foot chain link and I had an understanding with the neighbors first, and wasn't thrown bodily by my dad over a privacy fence into a strangers yard.