I do not understand how so many people think it should just be OK for an adult to go straight to tossing a kid over a 6' fence into someone else's yard, for any reason. Knock on the fucking door for crying out loud. You don't know what's on the other side of that fence. There could be any number of unsafe things that aren't dogs over there. Also how was the kid supposed to get back? It's just all bad.
This is a great question. Either the adult knew there was a gate that the kid could let himself out of, and so must've walked around Khavall's house in order to observe that - and in doing so couldn't be fucked to knock on the door - or just threw the kid in there without knowing.
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Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
From what you have described, the kids+adult probably didn't know you had a dog in your yard either.
You have every right to be angry because people are wandering around near your house without your permission. However, I think the general consensus is that the situation could be handled differently. After all, you said that you were living in a relatively good neighborhood and the ball(?) league is probably comprised of your neighbors. And if they are/have been playing in the adjacent field, the ball will/would have been over your fence many more times.
I think you've done more than you can so far, though no good resolution was reached. From your side of the story, all that happened from the other party's perspective is:
a) You chased them away from your property without giving them back their ball
b) You've lodged complaints to the League
I would recommend that you find the ball, contact the league, explain why you are so angry, return the ball and draw up some sort of agreement or proper way of handling similar situations in the future. So, for example, the next time a ball is over your fence, the children are to ring your doorbell and ask for the ball. Or if you're not in, give the league your phone number so that they can contact you about the lost property. If you catch anyone trying to climb the fence, you get to keep their ball and/or whatever more serious consequence.
The league is local-ish, but not composed of anyone who lives in the neighbourhood, nor do we know anyone in the league.
Also this is neither here nor there, but there's actually a fence surrounding the field so as to prevent balls from going over into the yards, so they must have been either immensely lucky in kicking it perfectly to go into our yard, or were playing not actually on the field for some reason.
We also immediately returned the ball when we found it.
Damn, if it were me watching a grown ass man boost a kid into my yard I'd freak the fuck out and I don't even own a dog. I can't imagine how much worse I'd feel if I had a dog potentially in danger, too.
Some of ya'll appear to be trippin'.
I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have a right to be annoyed, or talk to the soccer league, etc. But calling the cops, the city, and wondering what else he can do to avoid this is kinda going overboard. Best thing would be to speak to the soccer league, even if it's just so they can tell all their parents "that guy's really particular, so tread lightly".
I'm saying I would have called the police while it was happening.
Seriously?
Like, I get if it was an adult, or it was in the middle of the night. This was a kid trying to get his ball back. They did it the wrong way obviously, but what's the point of the police? To make sure everyone knows you're an asshole?
It was a kid who was in the yard, but it was an adult who sent him in there. Quite literally and physically, since there's no way that kid just climbed the fence on his own. That adult was also the one who argued with us when we told him to get off the property. He also mentioned that we had to help the kid leave the property because the gate was locked.
I do not understand how so many people think it should just be OK for an adult to go straight to tossing a kid over a 6' fence into someone else's yard, for any reason. Knock on the fucking door for crying out loud. You don't know what's on the other side of that fence. There could be any number of unsafe things that aren't dogs over there. Also how was the kid supposed to get back? It's just all bad.
This is a great question. Either the adult knew there was a gate that the kid could let himself out of, and so must've walked around Khavall's house in order to observe that - and in doing so couldn't be fucked to knock on the door - or just threw the kid in there without knowing.
So there is a gate that faces the field. That gate was locked. I assume that before they tossed the kid over, they checked the gate.
My assumption in the matter is that he assumed that the gate would be unlockable from the inside, which it is. However, as I mentioned, it also has a tendency in warmer weather(It's an old fence and an old-ish gate) to not stay closed. Part of the reason it remains locked is so that this doesn't happen, because one of the dogs probably would run away if the gate was open, and there are busy roads around. The lock helps to keep it closed.
whether it's a betrayal of the suburban contract or not - it surprises me that it is, in a place as safe as BC, but then again canadians do love their platitudes - my point was: it happened. there were no consequences. how much more of your life do you want to dole out on bitterness?
Did you see the ball land in your yard? If not watching a kid get boosted over a fence to look for something that you didn't see occur would put up some flags. Though if you saw it land in your yard then you are being a goose.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
edited September 2014
How different would this thread have ended up if OP said, instead:
"So my house backs up to a park, and I have a 6-foot tall privacy fence. There was a soccer game going on this afternoon, and one of the kids' balls went over the fence. One of the parents boosted their child over the fence into our yard to retrieve the ball. I saw the kid through the window and so I went running outside, and I saw the kid approach our dog and apparently he wanted to pet it, and by the time I made it to them our dog got scared after the kid touched him and bit the kid.
The kid needed a couple of stitches on his leg, and his parents are freaking the fuck out, and animal control took my dog for testing and I have no idea if I'm going to be liable or if I'm going to get my dog back. My wife and I are just beside ourselves, I mean we put the fence up for a reason, I'm scared for my dog, I feel bad about the kid. Do I need to be contacting an attorney now?"
The above is a very real alternate outcome to this. But it's NBD it's just a kid getting a ball from that cranky old dude's yard amirite?
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Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
Did you see the ball land in your yard? If not watching a kid get boosted over a fence to look for something that you didn't see occur would put up some flags. Though if you saw it land in your yard then you are being a goose.
I walked out to see a random adult I didn't know staring over the fence, and a kid backing away from the dog, near the gate(still closed)
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited September 2014
Contacting the League is probably your best bet, and hopefully they'll implement a policy of telling the people running those events that if a ball enters a private yard to check if the owners are home, and if not, leave a note explaining the situation and where the home owners can drop off the ball/arrange pickup.
I'd be surprised if they didn't have a policy to cover this, but just didn't properly inform the organizers.
edit: Personal anecdote, even though I have an open yard, I've always had people check if I'm home to ask for permission, or if I'm not, leave a note asking me to chuck it over the fence when I get back.
kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
edited September 2014
you're being nuts about this, but if you want to keep people out of your backyard, build a higher fence or put up very clearly visible barbed wire. i don't see what you're trying to accomplish by hassling the people who retrieved their ball.
those people probably won't come back, and the cops aren't going to be able to do anything to keep people out in the future.
so building a bigger fence is realistically the only way you can ensure nobody goes in your back yard.
you're being nuts about this, but if you want to keep people out of your backyard, build a higher fence or put up very clearly visible barbed wire. i don't see what you're trying to accomplish by hassling the people who retrieved their ball.
...What?
A six foot solid wood fence isn't enough to expect people to not come over it?
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Wow some of you are being SUPER FUCKING SHITTY about this.
My family fostered and raised large dogs while I was growing up, and a breed that can be considered aggressive due to abuse and poor breeding and shitty people being shitty. I know EXACTLY what can happen to dogs that bite someone no matter what local laws say. I've heard every last horror story out there; I practically grew up on them. And you know why about 75% of them happen? Because parents let their kids run at dogs like it's nothing, not thinking that even the friendliest dog might be startled. Yes, even on their own property, and yes, even when the dog is behind a giant barbed wire fence with a big old sign that says "BEWARE OF DOG."
A responsible dog owner for a large or purportedly aggressive breed HAS to be on top of this shit, and if you think this is no big deal then you can't fully grasp the fact that some people actually really love their dogs and don't want to see them basically killed by shitty thoughtless people.
So I am giving an official "FUCK OFF" to anyone who says the OP is overreacting, and if you don't have actual advice for how this situation can be prevented or something more the OP can do, you should NOT be here.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Ok, keeping in mind that I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal advice, from what I'm reading of the Trespass Act and other writings on Canadian law, having a "No Trespassing" sign seems like it can help you legally.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
you're being nuts about this, but if you want to keep people out of your backyard, build a higher fence or put up very clearly visible barbed wire. i don't see what you're trying to accomplish by hassling the people who retrieved their ball.
...What?
A six foot solid wood fence isn't enough to expect people to not come over it?
What is going on in this thread?
A 4 foot high fence that demarcates a property line is enough to _expect_ people to not come over it. But it's clearly not enough to actually _stop_ people coming over it. Rather than try the police to stop children from retrieving soccer balls, he'll have better luck actually keeping people out with a higher fence.
If you are concerned about it being an ongoing issue, I would definitely suggest looking into an inexpensive video security system. Nothing will completely deter the truly brazen and/or stupid, but if something DOES happen it can be a very useful tool to have on your side. The fact that the kid had to be boosted over the fence means that it's plenty high enough. If they're willing to go through that, they could just as easily use a ladder.
you're being nuts about this, but if you want to keep people out of your backyard, build a higher fence or put up very clearly visible barbed wire. i don't see what you're trying to accomplish by hassling the people who retrieved their ball.
...What?
A six foot solid wood fence isn't enough to expect people to not come over it?
What is going on in this thread?
A 4 foot high fence that demarcates a property line is enough to _expect_ people to not come over it. But it's clearly not enough to actually _stop_ people coming over it. Rather than try the police to stop children from retrieving soccer balls, he'll have better luck actually keeping people out with a higher fence.
The adult literally had to help the kid over the six foot solid fence in the first place.
I don't think the Castle Doctrine was ever meant to be literal, in that your home needs to be an actual castle.
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
you're being nuts about this, but if you want to keep people out of your backyard, build a higher fence or put up very clearly visible barbed wire. i don't see what you're trying to accomplish by hassling the people who retrieved their ball.
...What?
A six foot solid wood fence isn't enough to expect people to not come over it?
What is going on in this thread?
A 4 foot high fence that demarcates a property line is enough to _expect_ people to not come over it. But it's clearly not enough to actually _stop_ people coming over it. Rather than try the police to stop children from retrieving soccer balls, he'll have better luck actually keeping people out with a higher fence.
The adult literally had to help the kid over the six foot solid fence in the first place.
I don't think the Castle Doctrine was ever meant to be literal, in that your home needs to be an actual castle.
I am on a first-floor apartment and just installed bars on my windows. It turns out people sometimes ignore the sanctity of property rights and go where they aren't invited, often for reasons less benign than what we saw in the thread. I'd rather have an effective deterrent than stand on principle.
Doors, fences, and windows are basically there to keep honest people honest.
OP, you did all the right things. I think you may have pestered the police far too often, but, as a property owner you should definitely be going after the local city or whatever you guys have near you that handles this, and the league.
Don't tell them your dog bites, tell them your dog gets startled easy and you don't want some kid getting hurt because they're careless and the fence is there for a reason. I agree with the earlier poster that said keep calling the league and ask them what's happening with your report and see where this goes. The squeaky wheel gets greased, so keep squeaking every other day.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
My family fostered and raised large dogs while I was growing up, and a breed that can be considered aggressive due to abuse and poor breeding and shitty people being shitty. I know EXACTLY what can happen to dogs that bite someone no matter what local laws say. I've heard every last horror story out there; I practically grew up on them. And you know why about 75% of them happen? Because parents let their kids run at dogs like it's nothing, not thinking that even the friendliest dog might be startled. Yes, even on their own property, and yes, even when the dog is behind a giant barbed wire fence with a big old sign that says "BEWARE OF DOG."
Yeah a lot of people are really ignorant about how dogs can react. They're still animals, not humans and certainly not plush toys.
I'm fairly certain that having complained both directly to the adult responsible and to the League, that you are fairly firmly on their radar and this will never happen again.
If you get a repeat incident then you can think about further action but for now they tried to get away with it and got caught, chances are they won't try again.
I agree that the adult was irresponsible and that - at a minimum - the adult / child should have knocked on your door before trying to enter your yard. Dog or not, I would be bothered by people simply climbing into my privacy-fence enclosed yard (hell, I don't have a fence and I'm generally bothered by people I don't know going in my yard) and I think it's perfectly appropriate to confront the adult with a 'what the hell?'.
At the same time, clearly a good many people think nothing of 'hop the fence and grab your ball'. It's what I would have done as a kid, rather than bother a homeowner over something so minor. Like it or not, justified or not, making a big deal out of something like this makes people think 'crotchety asshole'. Some people don't care if they are perceived that way, but it is what it is - you can't be upset at people pointing out that is how you come across to them even if the action is perfectly justified.
I think though that calling the police to report this kid as a trespasser is extreme, and I don't blame the police for basically saying fuck off, this isn't a police matter. When you say 'trespassing' to the police, they hear 'arrest this person'. Which is absolutely not warranted. It would be better to present it as a nuisance and possible risk to the child / negligence on the part of the adult, but even then I doubt the police would do more than have a few words with the league and ask them to please be more careful in the future.
I think that a call / e-mail to the league and posting 'No Trespassing' or 'Beware of Dog' signs is appropriate. It is possible that acknowledging that you're concerned a dog will attack someone entering the yard (either to the police or by posting a 'Beware of Dog' sign could make you liable in a future incident. The question then becomes if you're more worried about liability, or you're more worried about someone getting hurt. Again, your call.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
The police have chosen not to do anything, because they will have to go to a lot of hassle to what will amount to a $50 fine and told by a judge not to do it anymore. They are not going to throw the book at these people.
I can understand not wanting people to stray into a yard. I had to put down a dog when I was younger because kids kept coming into our yard and one got bit, and a different kid got bit for reaching his hand over the fence (which is different). It sucks, and I agree the adult shouldn't have boosted the kid over, but officially you are at a standstill and not likely to achieve a productive result.
What could be productive is using anti climb paint on the top 6 inches of your fence or on the inside beams. Make sure you put up signage. That stuff is amazing, and really nasty to get on you. It teaches a lesson all on it's own without any mauling or court orders. For aesthetic purposes running some lattice over your fence with a thorny vine going through it, might be pretty and effective at keeping people out.
I have always found bushes, shrubs and vines with thorns, sharp leaves and brambles are much more effective at keeping away unwanted children than fences.
The issue with "hop the fence and grab my ball" that we all did with kids is we only did it after we had really talked with the neighbor or knew them at least on a neighborly basis.
If you didn't know them, you would knock on their door first to make sure they're home and just go "hey, I need to grab my ball from your back yard, I didn't want to do it without asking permission first."
The only time I've ever not done that was when it was barely at the property line. But if there's a fence involved, absolutely ask the owner first. That's just common courtesy and I imagine OP would be far less perturbed if someone had just asked him, "hey my ball rolled into you yard, do you mind if I grab it?"
Here's what probably went down:
I'm guessing OP's property butts up against the public park or something, or these kids were doing that "let me hit a ball around while we're walking on community property" type thing and they over calculated and it bounced into someone's yard as they were walking by, and shithead adult thought "just be quick and grab it" about the whole situation. So they were doing a whole bunch of stupid shitty things at once that culminated in OP getting pissed off because of their lack of disregard for his property.
As a kid I didn't think much of playing around other's cars and throwing rocks into the road and shit. And then I got a car and everything changed and I realized how terrible of a person I really was with what I was doing to other people's property and not respecting it and causing damage to it. Now take the concept of your car, or really personal object you own, and apply it to the house/pet level.
It doesn't take much for animal control to show up and take away a "mean dog" from a homeowner. How would you feel if someone entered your yard without your permission because they were acting like a dumbass and got bit, and took away your dog? Earlier poster summed it up pretty well, everyone's tune would change if the animal were the one in danger, and not just someone's hurt feelings. This was about a random luck's chance away from being either situation, dogs spook easily with unexpected guests without the owner nearby. They're wild animals.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I think the OP would get a better response if he led with the "Just knock and we'll retrieve your ball. We have a dog who doesn't like kids and we don't want anything bad happening to anybody." While I think his concerns are completely reasonable I think if you presented them in a way that sidesteps the "Kid retrieving the ball is totally normal" thing you'd get better results from the League organizing this stuff.
I played through University and Referee as well. My "home" field is very similar to what you described with private property next to the field. Gates locked on the inside for resident access. As a ref and my mom was the manager when I was younger, there are ABSOLUTLY rules when a ball goes into someone's yard. The league would send reminders to coaches/managers, the head/organizers would tell refs what to do, etc.
In this case, that adult was completely in the wrong. The problem becomes enforcement. Technically, the police are the only ones that can do anything about it. It's a kid's league so it's not like the league is going to fine the team if it was a coach/assistant coach. And if it was a random parent/spectator how do you know who's team it was or even if they were just walking by trying to be helpful.
Personally, a "Private Property" or a "No Trespassing" or a "Beware of Dog" sign can help but I'd also add a smaller sign "For retrieving balls, please come to the front". It acknowledges that you know balls sometimes come into your yard, you want to help but you'd like them to do it your/the proper way.
Also from BC, so I PM'd you depending on where you live, I can help with contacts if around my area.
You have plenty of reason to be concerned/upset! there are so many things that could have gone wrong there. whenever someone gets hurt on your property, whether or not they are supposed to be there, you have a chance of getting sued. even if your dog wasn't out there, if that kid had twisted his ankle coming down, or your fence had cut him or something. I had a party at my house in high school, and we had a chain link fence that came to two barbs at the top where the fence ended. so at this party, the local constabulary was called, and people fled over the fence. one girl cut her jeans/leg (no stitches, nothing severe as far as i know), and her parents threatened mine with legal action. my parents asked why she was running from the cops, and if she was committing some sort of crime on their property, which promptly shut them up.
you definitely went with the nuclear option by calling the cops etc, but i can't fault you for that.
Also, if our dog had attacked the kid while defending his yard and bone, would we have been liable?
A similar story was actually trending in Japanese on Twitter recently- Some dumbass kid trespassed into someone's garden and teased the dog (which was on a chain) until it bit them, and then the kid's mother threw a fit and went around telling everyone who would listen (including the town office) that the dog was crazy and dangerous and basically very nearly got it put down. The owner ended up having to give it up for adoption because everyone believed the mother's story about the vicious killer animal savagely mauling her poor innocent child.
So I am giving an official "FUCK OFF" to anyone who says the OP is overreacting
This.
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GonmunHe keeps kickin' me inthe dickRegistered Userregular
Just going to pop in and give a little advice as I'm of the side that thinks what the adult and child did was incredibly stupid and dangerous if the situation had been different.
- Sorry you had to deal with that OP.
- I feel you had a right to be upset and while I think you took the right steps and think the police blew it off I don't think pestering the police about it would be advisable at this point until things escalated or re-occured frequently. Document when you call and when it happens so you can keep tabs on it to cya.
- As someone in a similar boat to Ceres with having been involved in a fostering program for animals I can attest to some stupid people causing a great deal of harm to an animal. I'd suggest contacting your local SPCA or municipal animal control officer/Municipal office to see what by-laws or regulations there are with regards to if someone tresspasses on your property and your dog bites them. Better to know then not and have something happen that could be tragic for all parties involved.
I'm profoundly disappointed by the lack of Sandlot references so far. I'd recommend stockpiling Babe Ruth signed baseballs.
That said, you shouldn't be liable for dog bites EXCEPT when you are because lol local judges. I think you're completely fine being concerned about trespassers potentially being bitten.
So many better ways to handle it. "Hey, my dog is a bit skittish and I'm afraid he may bite. Next time something like this happens how about knocking on the door? If I'm not at home its best if you stay out of the yard, I don't want anyone getting hurt. Just leave me a note."
Anyway, its not what you want to hear but I think you really went too far.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
There is no vote taking place here.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I haven't been a kid in this position for better than 30 years, but I seem to remember knocking on someone's door and asking if you could go get your ball or if they could get it back was pretty easy. I mean, if he had to fling the kid over the fence, how was he going to get out? Didn't anyone look over the fence to see if there was a dog? That was SOP when I was a kid, you didn't hop fences into yards with dogs, that was always bad news.
Calling the cops and the league sounds like covering your ass, not a bad idea in this day and age.
Theres not much to do unless this happens again, really, which is why the police blew you off. I wont pretend that I've been though the hardships of dog ownership when it comes to biting, but I know that even when I helped with a small business, generally we needed repeat offenses, even on things like property damage to get the cops to take notice.
You have filed a report, so you have done what there was to do. If you dont want to add more preventative measures on your side (which I agree should not be needed) then all you have left to look for is retribution or punishment for the league/that dude, and that just is not happening. Everyone is lucky here that things are not worse, I understand the frustration and concern for your dog.
Regardless of the terrible parent who tossed their kid in there
If your dog is potentially dangerous to kids I would argue that you should put up a beware of dog sign. A lot of kids/teenagers put little thought in to the possible danger of cutting across someone's backyard or hopping over the fence to grab a ball on their own.
Edit: This isn't just to protect kids either but also your dog.
I wouldn't get a beware of dog sign. It's probably pretty obvious that you have a dog almost immediately, and I doubt a beware of dog sign will do anything to deter this situation in the future that having the dog (and the 6 ft fence) didn't already do.
I would probably print up/lamanate a sign that says something along the lines of "Do NOT climb fence to retrieve balls/frisbees/whatever. Knock on front door or contact this email (xxxxx) to setup a retrieval. Thanks". The biggest thing here is to let anyone who approaches know that you are not ok with people climbing the fence to get their stuff and that you have given them a reasonable way to get it back. You may or may not add something along the lines of "video surveillance on property, will prosecute unwelcome persons in yard". Not sure how well that will work though unless you get a big fake/or not fake video camera mounted outside. The "will prosecute trespassers" idea tends to be meaningless unless you add something else that makes it seem like more than a weak attempt to cut down on your annoyance.
Anyone who can be convinced not to jump the fence will probably be convinced by that type of a sign, and if they aren't then you were never going to be able to stop them anyway. Only other option would be making it impossible to actually get over the fence (taller, no where on other side to land except in prickly bushes, wide rounded top).
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
During the next set of games, go to the game and find the person in charge. If there isn't one, one of the refs will likely know who is. Explain to that person what happened the last time and suggest a solution. This could be having them knock on your door, leaving a note for a lost ball, or giving them a contact phone number so they can call you to search. You can express concern about the kid hurting him/herself or the fact that they could have damaged your fence. You can use the idea of potential liability against them just as easily as the people in this thread do toward your dog.
You don't need to explain anything about your dog. The only reason the dog matters is because someone was in there that was not allowed. Fix the conditions that could cause that to occur, and the dog concern goes away.
OP, I'd have done the same thing. I come from a suburban background, but the most common crime in my 'shiny polished white suburb' is home invasion. I'd have called the police immediately.
That said, you've done what you can in that regard. My ONLY remaining piece of advise is to perhaps get your fence gate fixed if you can, this way you'll not have to worry about your dog getting out and run over in windy weather. Best not to wait until even locking the gate doesn't work, you know?
@Khavall Dude, I wasn't trying to say you're a crazy person or something for being angry that they broke into your backyard. It's more along the lines of:
1) I generally don't trust the police
2) People become super emotional when the police become involved
3) People become super emotional when you have to tell them they're practicing poor parenting skills
So my rule of thumb is to sort things out first with the people trying to jump into your yard before going to any kind of law enforcement. I grew up in a small town and I know how things like this can be twisted to make you out to be the bad guy.
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I assume you have a privacy boundary or two?
So, how would you react is someone apathetically violated those boundaries?
I have a feeling that the reaction would be similar, even if the threshold is different.
This is a great question. Either the adult knew there was a gate that the kid could let himself out of, and so must've walked around Khavall's house in order to observe that - and in doing so couldn't be fucked to knock on the door - or just threw the kid in there without knowing.
The dog is contained behind a 6 foot tall fence with locked gates.
The dog is also only aggressive if he's defending his territory. Which is guarded by a six foot high fence and a locked gate.
The league is local-ish, but not composed of anyone who lives in the neighbourhood, nor do we know anyone in the league.
Also this is neither here nor there, but there's actually a fence surrounding the field so as to prevent balls from going over into the yards, so they must have been either immensely lucky in kicking it perfectly to go into our yard, or were playing not actually on the field for some reason.
We also immediately returned the ball when we found it.
It was a kid who was in the yard, but it was an adult who sent him in there. Quite literally and physically, since there's no way that kid just climbed the fence on his own. That adult was also the one who argued with us when we told him to get off the property. He also mentioned that we had to help the kid leave the property because the gate was locked.
So there is a gate that faces the field. That gate was locked. I assume that before they tossed the kid over, they checked the gate.
My assumption in the matter is that he assumed that the gate would be unlockable from the inside, which it is. However, as I mentioned, it also has a tendency in warmer weather(It's an old fence and an old-ish gate) to not stay closed. Part of the reason it remains locked is so that this doesn't happen, because one of the dogs probably would run away if the gate was open, and there are busy roads around. The lock helps to keep it closed.
The point here is to prevent a future incident from happening
Ah ok.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
The above is a very real alternate outcome to this. But it's NBD it's just a kid getting a ball from that cranky old dude's yard amirite?
I walked out to see a random adult I didn't know staring over the fence, and a kid backing away from the dog, near the gate(still closed)
I'd be surprised if they didn't have a policy to cover this, but just didn't properly inform the organizers.
edit: Personal anecdote, even though I have an open yard, I've always had people check if I'm home to ask for permission, or if I'm not, leave a note asking me to chuck it over the fence when I get back.
But these were Neighbour situations.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
those people probably won't come back, and the cops aren't going to be able to do anything to keep people out in the future.
so building a bigger fence is realistically the only way you can ensure nobody goes in your back yard.
...What?
A six foot solid wood fence isn't enough to expect people to not come over it?
What is going on in this thread?
My family fostered and raised large dogs while I was growing up, and a breed that can be considered aggressive due to abuse and poor breeding and shitty people being shitty. I know EXACTLY what can happen to dogs that bite someone no matter what local laws say. I've heard every last horror story out there; I practically grew up on them. And you know why about 75% of them happen? Because parents let their kids run at dogs like it's nothing, not thinking that even the friendliest dog might be startled. Yes, even on their own property, and yes, even when the dog is behind a giant barbed wire fence with a big old sign that says "BEWARE OF DOG."
A responsible dog owner for a large or purportedly aggressive breed HAS to be on top of this shit, and if you think this is no big deal then you can't fully grasp the fact that some people actually really love their dogs and don't want to see them basically killed by shitty thoughtless people.
So I am giving an official "FUCK OFF" to anyone who says the OP is overreacting, and if you don't have actual advice for how this situation can be prevented or something more the OP can do, you should NOT be here.
I'm not sure a repeat is especially likely though, the adult who boosted the kid into your yard seems spectacularly irresponsible.
Also, BSSPCA may have some ideas for you?
A 4 foot high fence that demarcates a property line is enough to _expect_ people to not come over it. But it's clearly not enough to actually _stop_ people coming over it. Rather than try the police to stop children from retrieving soccer balls, he'll have better luck actually keeping people out with a higher fence.
The adult literally had to help the kid over the six foot solid fence in the first place.
I don't think the Castle Doctrine was ever meant to be literal, in that your home needs to be an actual castle.
I am on a first-floor apartment and just installed bars on my windows. It turns out people sometimes ignore the sanctity of property rights and go where they aren't invited, often for reasons less benign than what we saw in the thread. I'd rather have an effective deterrent than stand on principle.
OP, you did all the right things. I think you may have pestered the police far too often, but, as a property owner you should definitely be going after the local city or whatever you guys have near you that handles this, and the league.
Don't tell them your dog bites, tell them your dog gets startled easy and you don't want some kid getting hurt because they're careless and the fence is there for a reason. I agree with the earlier poster that said keep calling the league and ask them what's happening with your report and see where this goes. The squeaky wheel gets greased, so keep squeaking every other day.
Yeah a lot of people are really ignorant about how dogs can react. They're still animals, not humans and certainly not plush toys.
If you get a repeat incident then you can think about further action but for now they tried to get away with it and got caught, chances are they won't try again.
At the same time, clearly a good many people think nothing of 'hop the fence and grab your ball'. It's what I would have done as a kid, rather than bother a homeowner over something so minor. Like it or not, justified or not, making a big deal out of something like this makes people think 'crotchety asshole'. Some people don't care if they are perceived that way, but it is what it is - you can't be upset at people pointing out that is how you come across to them even if the action is perfectly justified.
I think though that calling the police to report this kid as a trespasser is extreme, and I don't blame the police for basically saying fuck off, this isn't a police matter. When you say 'trespassing' to the police, they hear 'arrest this person'. Which is absolutely not warranted. It would be better to present it as a nuisance and possible risk to the child / negligence on the part of the adult, but even then I doubt the police would do more than have a few words with the league and ask them to please be more careful in the future.
I think that a call / e-mail to the league and posting 'No Trespassing' or 'Beware of Dog' signs is appropriate. It is possible that acknowledging that you're concerned a dog will attack someone entering the yard (either to the police or by posting a 'Beware of Dog' sign could make you liable in a future incident. The question then becomes if you're more worried about liability, or you're more worried about someone getting hurt. Again, your call.
I can understand not wanting people to stray into a yard. I had to put down a dog when I was younger because kids kept coming into our yard and one got bit, and a different kid got bit for reaching his hand over the fence (which is different). It sucks, and I agree the adult shouldn't have boosted the kid over, but officially you are at a standstill and not likely to achieve a productive result.
What could be productive is using anti climb paint on the top 6 inches of your fence or on the inside beams. Make sure you put up signage. That stuff is amazing, and really nasty to get on you. It teaches a lesson all on it's own without any mauling or court orders. For aesthetic purposes running some lattice over your fence with a thorny vine going through it, might be pretty and effective at keeping people out.
I have always found bushes, shrubs and vines with thorns, sharp leaves and brambles are much more effective at keeping away unwanted children than fences.
If you didn't know them, you would knock on their door first to make sure they're home and just go "hey, I need to grab my ball from your back yard, I didn't want to do it without asking permission first."
The only time I've ever not done that was when it was barely at the property line. But if there's a fence involved, absolutely ask the owner first. That's just common courtesy and I imagine OP would be far less perturbed if someone had just asked him, "hey my ball rolled into you yard, do you mind if I grab it?"
Here's what probably went down:
I'm guessing OP's property butts up against the public park or something, or these kids were doing that "let me hit a ball around while we're walking on community property" type thing and they over calculated and it bounced into someone's yard as they were walking by, and shithead adult thought "just be quick and grab it" about the whole situation. So they were doing a whole bunch of stupid shitty things at once that culminated in OP getting pissed off because of their lack of disregard for his property.
As a kid I didn't think much of playing around other's cars and throwing rocks into the road and shit. And then I got a car and everything changed and I realized how terrible of a person I really was with what I was doing to other people's property and not respecting it and causing damage to it. Now take the concept of your car, or really personal object you own, and apply it to the house/pet level.
It doesn't take much for animal control to show up and take away a "mean dog" from a homeowner. How would you feel if someone entered your yard without your permission because they were acting like a dumbass and got bit, and took away your dog? Earlier poster summed it up pretty well, everyone's tune would change if the animal were the one in danger, and not just someone's hurt feelings. This was about a random luck's chance away from being either situation, dogs spook easily with unexpected guests without the owner nearby. They're wild animals.
In this case, that adult was completely in the wrong. The problem becomes enforcement. Technically, the police are the only ones that can do anything about it. It's a kid's league so it's not like the league is going to fine the team if it was a coach/assistant coach. And if it was a random parent/spectator how do you know who's team it was or even if they were just walking by trying to be helpful.
Personally, a "Private Property" or a "No Trespassing" or a "Beware of Dog" sign can help but I'd also add a smaller sign "For retrieving balls, please come to the front". It acknowledges that you know balls sometimes come into your yard, you want to help but you'd like them to do it your/the proper way.
Also from BC, so I PM'd you depending on where you live, I can help with contacts if around my area.
you definitely went with the nuclear option by calling the cops etc, but i can't fault you for that.
A similar story was actually trending in Japanese on Twitter recently- Some dumbass kid trespassed into someone's garden and teased the dog (which was on a chain) until it bit them, and then the kid's mother threw a fit and went around telling everyone who would listen (including the town office) that the dog was crazy and dangerous and basically very nearly got it put down. The owner ended up having to give it up for adoption because everyone believed the mother's story about the vicious killer animal savagely mauling her poor innocent child.
So yeah.
This.
- Sorry you had to deal with that OP.
- I feel you had a right to be upset and while I think you took the right steps and think the police blew it off I don't think pestering the police about it would be advisable at this point until things escalated or re-occured frequently. Document when you call and when it happens so you can keep tabs on it to cya.
- As someone in a similar boat to Ceres with having been involved in a fostering program for animals I can attest to some stupid people causing a great deal of harm to an animal. I'd suggest contacting your local SPCA or municipal animal control officer/Municipal office to see what by-laws or regulations there are with regards to if someone tresspasses on your property and your dog bites them. Better to know then not and have something happen that could be tragic for all parties involved.
That said, you shouldn't be liable for dog bites EXCEPT when you are because lol local judges. I think you're completely fine being concerned about trespassers potentially being bitten.
So many better ways to handle it. "Hey, my dog is a bit skittish and I'm afraid he may bite. Next time something like this happens how about knocking on the door? If I'm not at home its best if you stay out of the yard, I don't want anyone getting hurt. Just leave me a note."
Anyway, its not what you want to hear but I think you really went too far.
I haven't been a kid in this position for better than 30 years, but I seem to remember knocking on someone's door and asking if you could go get your ball or if they could get it back was pretty easy. I mean, if he had to fling the kid over the fence, how was he going to get out? Didn't anyone look over the fence to see if there was a dog? That was SOP when I was a kid, you didn't hop fences into yards with dogs, that was always bad news.
Calling the cops and the league sounds like covering your ass, not a bad idea in this day and age.
You have filed a report, so you have done what there was to do. If you dont want to add more preventative measures on your side (which I agree should not be needed) then all you have left to look for is retribution or punishment for the league/that dude, and that just is not happening. Everyone is lucky here that things are not worse, I understand the frustration and concern for your dog.
If your dog is potentially dangerous to kids I would argue that you should put up a beware of dog sign. A lot of kids/teenagers put little thought in to the possible danger of cutting across someone's backyard or hopping over the fence to grab a ball on their own.
Edit: This isn't just to protect kids either but also your dog.
I would probably print up/lamanate a sign that says something along the lines of "Do NOT climb fence to retrieve balls/frisbees/whatever. Knock on front door or contact this email (xxxxx) to setup a retrieval. Thanks". The biggest thing here is to let anyone who approaches know that you are not ok with people climbing the fence to get their stuff and that you have given them a reasonable way to get it back. You may or may not add something along the lines of "video surveillance on property, will prosecute unwelcome persons in yard". Not sure how well that will work though unless you get a big fake/or not fake video camera mounted outside. The "will prosecute trespassers" idea tends to be meaningless unless you add something else that makes it seem like more than a weak attempt to cut down on your annoyance.
Anyone who can be convinced not to jump the fence will probably be convinced by that type of a sign, and if they aren't then you were never going to be able to stop them anyway. Only other option would be making it impossible to actually get over the fence (taller, no where on other side to land except in prickly bushes, wide rounded top).
You don't need to explain anything about your dog. The only reason the dog matters is because someone was in there that was not allowed. Fix the conditions that could cause that to occur, and the dog concern goes away.
That said, you've done what you can in that regard. My ONLY remaining piece of advise is to perhaps get your fence gate fixed if you can, this way you'll not have to worry about your dog getting out and run over in windy weather. Best not to wait until even locking the gate doesn't work, you know?
1) I generally don't trust the police
2) People become super emotional when the police become involved
3) People become super emotional when you have to tell them they're practicing poor parenting skills
So my rule of thumb is to sort things out first with the people trying to jump into your yard before going to any kind of law enforcement. I grew up in a small town and I know how things like this can be twisted to make you out to be the bad guy.
If this idiot really thought putting a child into a yard with a dog was a great idea, Child Protection Services?