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Breaker Boxes and Breaker Types
Myiagros
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I'm hoping someone knows enough about breaker boxes that you can help me out a bit.
I received a breaker box, maybe 25 years old, from my uncle but he disassembled everything before giving it to me and it looks like some parts are missing so it's near impossible to reassemble it and keep it up to code to pass the inspection. I was hoping to use the breakers still as there are 8 double breakers and about 20 single breakers which is more than enough to run everything in my house(I currently have 2 doubles and maybe 10 singles).
The problem I'm running into is the compatibility between breaker types. These ones are Commander BQL screw on type which appear to be compatible with QBH. Looking at local store stock though they list neither type. I would really like to avoid wasting all the breakers as there is probably $300 worth but I can't seem to find anything new that will fit them. If anyone has any ideas it would be very helpful before I go into Home Depot and start asking the "experts".
I received a breaker box, maybe 25 years old, from my uncle but he disassembled everything before giving it to me and it looks like some parts are missing so it's near impossible to reassemble it and keep it up to code to pass the inspection. I was hoping to use the breakers still as there are 8 double breakers and about 20 single breakers which is more than enough to run everything in my house(I currently have 2 doubles and maybe 10 singles).
The problem I'm running into is the compatibility between breaker types. These ones are Commander BQL screw on type which appear to be compatible with QBH. Looking at local store stock though they list neither type. I would really like to avoid wasting all the breakers as there is probably $300 worth but I can't seem to find anything new that will fit them. If anyone has any ideas it would be very helpful before I go into Home Depot and start asking the "experts".
Steam: MyiagrosX27Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
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You need to talk to a licensed electrician. Screwing this up could potentially kill you and your family by setting your house on fire.
Also what is even the end goal here?
Are you going to be adding dozens circuits to your house? Individual breakers are so cheap that unless you're using all of these old breakers it hardly seems worth the savings.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
the idea of utilizing an "old used breaker box" or any of its old, used components just raises all sorts of alarms in my head
take this from someone who as part of their job operates breakers over 4000v with megawatt loads
don't fuck around with that shit
This is not an exaggeration. When I was a kid, my family bought a house and the breaker box was screwed up. It caught on fire and the only thing that saved the house and my father's life was that the box was too hot to open, so he just killed the main power and waited. The electrician we got in the next day said that if he had gotten the box open, the entire thing would have exploded because of the added oxygen.
Seriously, don't screw around with it. If you really want to use it, get someone licensed to look it over, but I personally would recommend spending the $150 to $200 on a new one.
Anyways, a cutler hammer bolt on panel should fit that sucker, but bring a breaker in with you to check. (Using old breakers is pretty scary man, when they don't work, you won't know until something is melted)
Good luck, and may the (electromagnetic) force be with you.
This is very much a "penny wise, pound foolish" situation. I get that you want to save money, but with electricity (especially electricity in large quantities), the potential risks aren't worth it. Honestly, I would just get a licensed electrician to put in the new panel (especially if codes will require a sign-off on the install.)
Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?
The service is based on the meter.
If you don't know, the service you have is usually based on the size and age of your home. If it's over 30-40 years old, you probably have 60A service. If your home is less than 30 years old, it's probably got 100A service unless it's large (2500 square foot plus) then it might have 150. Exceptions would be if you have electric heat or something, then you might have 200A service...if you're all gas (dryer, hot water, stove, etc) you might be on the low end.
Best bet is look closely at your power bill. Realistically, if you have to ask these questions I can't stress enough that you should REALLY call an electrician.
Did you just direct bury the wire?
Electricity is scary, and catastrophes are easy to achieve.
Anyways, so you've added a possible 30 amp difference to your main house panel. Copper wire heats up when it gets too much amperage. Breakers are meant to stop this, along with any rapid spikes in amperage. I'm only really worried about if your 'new' panel is something like a 200A panel, and your old one was 100A. The wire originally ran would be sized for the 100A panel, and now you'd be theoretically doubling the amount of horses on that road. I mean, I doubt it, but again, Electricity! Hell, I just had a 20A breaker explode in my face today, and that burned clear through the copper.
Anyways, Post pics or read off the nameplate info on the panels involved with ratings, and I can give you better advice about the panelboards. Using old breakers though? I'd test them first with shorting them out to see if they trip. (Please don't do that)
The line is buried 4 feet down with the water line we ran at the same time. The line was the plastic coated stuff, was like $450 for 180 feet, and it came directly from an electrical contractor so we know it is the right stuff.
The currently installed panel doesn't have any markings on it, neither does the new one. I'd have to check what is written on the current breakers but they are screw down ones, it's a small panel, maybe 1 1/2 feet tall at most. The one I got is twice the size, also no markings on it(it's missing the front cover). Only thing I know about it is the breakers which list the Commander name with BQL breaker type.
I'll take a look tonight to see if the service amps is listed anywhere on my breaker panel, or on my meter, if not I'll just call up Hydro to see what they say. We definitely do not have 60A as we run our Stove, washer/dryer, hot water heater as well as everything else in the house at the same time without any breakers going off. The only problem I do have is running the welder and it's because I pigtail it off the dryer outlet which has a smaller gauge wire on it.
It's supposed to be labeled at the main service on the panel. Usually there's a switch at the top, by itself, will say something like "100A" on it, sometimes on the breaker itself, or, usually on the lever. But some electricians should be shot, and do it wrong, and it's not at the top by itself but let's hope it is.
I'm betting, since this has a barn, that it probably is 60A and they probably use propane/oil for heating and cooking.
Electricity is a funny thing. You can do it yourself, it's not difficult, but it's really not worth it most of the time. Running wire? Absolutely do that yourself and save yourself some dollars and the electrician time. Hopefully you consulted with one before you actually ran it and did it right, like in a conduit rated for underground runs.
I would say though, this is not overly difficult to do, but, if you are going to do it by yourself, follow the "you are going to die" type stuff and use all the safety equipment you can use. Special screwdrivers, gloves, insulated boots. You name it, you should get it. Once you're done, pay an electrician to come in and inspect your work before you power that shit on.
Also, you did pull permits if your locale expects you too, right? New and replacement runs like this often require whole new permits. But, again, the fact that there's a barn makes me think that you're in a rural area that doesn't give a shit.
The barn is completely unheated, the only power it gets is through the old power line run to it from the breaker in the house, it has a 20A fuse style single breaker which can't run much besides lights and the small freezer. The house is oil/wood heated but the water is on electric.
you will definitely need a new permit for this. we are replacing ours subpanel (since its an old federal pacific one) and upping our service from 90 to 200 and we needed a permit.
Yeah I'd install a 60A subpanel myself. That should give you enough for lights, some tools, a fridge, probably even a few space heaters.
That'd be 6/3 though, 4/3 is going to probably be too low of a gauge.
I'd guess the house is probably 60A judging by what you're saying @Myiagros , so you'll probably need to upgrade to 120A at the least. I'd shoot for 200A, that's what most modern houses are one. This way if you ever decide to pop in central air, you'll be good. It'll probably cost a few grand to upgrade your service. You'll need an electrican for that though.
If you run any more than 20 amps out to the barn without upgrading your server, you're probably going to be fucked, so, I'd go check to see what your service is first, but I'm betting dollars to donuts it's at most 60 amps. (look at the top most switch and see if it's got a number labeled on it).
Vinyl wrap for cars should behave like that.
you put a shitty old box on your house, your ass will get nailed to a wall if you try to sell it and its not to code
a new box done by a licensed tech should only be about $1k. a small price to pay for something that if done wrong will be extremely unpleasant
for the record here is what we are doing
replacing a subpanel, possibly upgrading main panel, going form 2 meters to one and upgrading from a 60/30 service to a 200A service
It depends on where you are, this may not be the case either. If it was done a long time ago they probably only pulled what was being used in the house (60-100A is probably right).
You can definitely tell what your panel has by checking the mains breaker on the panel.
You're probably fine if you did your research first and buried below the frost line (your local code should have requirements on how it should be buried). Just keep in mind that being plastic coated doesn't necessarily mean wire is rated for direct bury.
Personally, if I were going to trench anyway I'd run conduit - running conduit and line that's not rated for direct bury is usually about the same price or even cheaper than direct bury line. Not to mention it may save you having to dig your yard up again somewhere down the line (Pro-tip: Leave a draw wire in it). Since it's already down though, you'll probably be fine.
Ok. Unless you can find a label / marking with ratings on it, you need to toss this old panel box and go spend $100-200 to buy a new box and breakers. Size is not rating, and the panel box is a minor cost compared to having it installed. Besides, if you're going to hire an electrician and they are going to install some old box without ratings, go hire another one because you DON'T want that guy working on your house.
Keep in mind that a welder alone will draw a constant 20-30 amps.
Just do it right - hire an electrician, upgrade to 200A service, install a new panel box and subpanel for your welder / barn. The peace of mind is well worth it, and if you ever decide to sell or get hit with a code violation you'll really regret trying to cheap out. You don't screw around with electricity - especially mains.
EDIT - this is really getting into 'IANAL' / 'Call A Real One' territory. Not calling an electrician means you can die and / or burn down your house.
Because of the stupid north american system, a 4/3 is actually bigger then a 6/3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
OP seems on the right track now, although if you've got to increase your panel size to 100A, you might want to just suck up the punch to your wallet and pay for the 200A service. Hydro would still need to turn off your power regardless, and (at least in BC, Canada) you have to have an inspection report on any changes you do to your main service before hydro comes back in.
You'd have to deal with that twice if in the future you did decide to upgrade again.
Also, I think you have decided this as well but just buy a new panel. They are not that expensive and then you are sure.
Yeah it's stupid, most people say lower as it goes down around here though. Depends on the electrician you talk to too how they describe it.