Occasionally fun decks win in the competitive scene though. Cambridge PE seems pretty fun to me, for example.
I definitely agree, though I think that's often more by coincidence than intent. If the choice is between fun and effective, the tournament deck will and should choose effective, which over time tends to really narrow the card pool down to only the most reliable, efficient, and powerful cards.
I don't mean to say that tournament play isn't or can't be fun, just that I don't think it's for me. It tends to dominate the conversation, but I'm glad it's not the only viable way to play. I think I would feel compelled to get really good at the dominant Andy/NEH archtypes, or get good enough at their dominant counters to beat them (which I probably don't have the skill to pull off), or bring my silly decks and lose. Instead it's just everyone playing decks that interest them. The community aspect of it allows us to avoid a lot of the fatigue from repeated playstyles, or frustration with over powered cards, without needing official actions like hard-counters and phased-out cards.
0
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
I like to have a competitive deck or two (or, since my habit is getting bad, one for each faction...), and then the rest of my decks are just "why not?" fun decks. Things like Sterling Connections/Keyhole, or CT Stealth, or Quetzal/E3/Paintbrush. I definitely think it's worth playing these decks, because in addition to having fun and throwing together random stuff, there's a chance you'll re-evaluate some otherwise dismissed cards in a traditional tournament "meta." It also can give a nicer handicap against players who haven't sunk as much time into the hobby and aren't up to tournament-level deck-building.
So, tournament season has started up again in the area and I've been looking at messing around with making Quetzal work. I'd love to have feedback on the following deck.
Supplier Quetzal
Quetzal: Free Spirit (First Contact)
Event (9)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow) •••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
E3 is a no brainer, but I'm trying out the supplier for econ. I had an initial idea with inject for card draw, but it meant I needed to find space for Deja Vu/Retrieval run, which also seemed really click intensive.
Isn't 3-of the supplier a bit overkill? I'm not sure how much benefit you get out of it all together for the influence cost - your hardware is unique/doesn't help in multiples and it seems better to just use a click on your liberated accounts than spend that click playing the supplier?
Well you can also use the Supplier to install the Liberated Accounts for 2c less, which is actually super useful since it lets you install it on a lower credit pool.
But yeah I would usually want more resources/hardware to pair him up with.
I was using it mostly for the liberated accounts/daily casts synergy, cause I keep finding that anarchs as a faction end up being really poor. I do see your point though, would swapping the suppliers out for 3 of aesops work? I dislike the account siphon recursion style of anarch that i've seen, and I'm not sure of any other alternatives for anarch economy.
3DS FC: 3067-6095-3603
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I was using it mostly for the liberated accounts/daily casts synergy, cause I keep finding that anarchs as a faction end up being really poor. I do see your point though, would swapping the suppliers out for 3 of aesops work? I dislike the account siphon recursion style of anarch that i've seen, and I'm not sure of any other alternatives for anarch economy.
cyberfeeders
hard at work
sure gambles / lucky finds
maybe grifters
0
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Don't forget Queen's Gambit! Armitage Codebusting has a lower entry threshold than Liberated too, which can be nice.
0
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
Don't forget Queen's Gambit! Armitage Codebusting has a lower entry threshold than Liberated too, which can be nice.
i should try queen's gambit more
i am just so bad at playing anarch
i played my ridiculous Andy deck this morning once and won with it
it's nothing but ice destruction, emergency shutdown, and 3x medium
i named it "charge"
i was playing some jinteki PE guy who rushed some remotes with lots of advancement tokens and cheap ice
i was real scared cuz i saw a ronin in his R&D but i refused to change the plan and kept sallying forth. They were all agendas and traps I guess because I just kept drawing and running through 3 snares until I found the points I needed.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
edited November 2014
First attempt at putting hostile infrastructure to use:
The win condition is a bit shaky, but I can do sneaky stuff like protect shell corp with a snare or fetal
Obviously it needs work. I've got to find something to spend that last three influence on.
Shorty on
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
That... is a surprisingly low amount of traps. I suppose SEA/Scorch is a thing, but not even a Mushin!
Jinteki always seems to have more cards that I think are cool and want to include than I have space for in the deck. It's a lovely change from what they used to be.
+1
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
what do you do with all your money?
seems like you get crushed by someone who runs your centrals and your advanced facedown cards and leaves your assets alone
upping the damage of snare to 4 is nice, but there's still only 3 in the deck, and you have no jackson to recur them
i think you either need stronger ice or some fast advance
+1
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Ideally, he sinks the money into a SEA source, then double scorches them, but a single plascrete is enough to disrupt it. I would like to include some more advance-able traps, but not a lot of influence for that.
I honestly wonder if one could play a PE deck that uses 2/3 Cerebral Overwriters, 0-2 Jacksons, and the Grail ice. Stupid 9 influence, but Merlin is a nice set of 2 net damage that could be up to 6 potentially, off a code gate (or up to 4 off a Barrier or Sentry). 9 ice is about right for a shell deck anyway. No room for a Scorch though unless you don't run the Overwriters.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
seems like you get crushed by someone who runs your centrals and your advanced facedown cards and leaves your assets alone
upping the damage of snare to 4 is nice, but there's still only 3 in the deck, and you have no jackson to recur them
i think you either need stronger ice or some fast advance
Not sure yet, I haven't gotten a lot of playtesting in
Fetal has to stay in because it's net damage I don't pay for, but I may rework the deck for trick of light shenanigans, with braintrust and medical breakthrough
Jinteki is really tough to build since you want traps and then all the other stuff that every deck needs
Had a really frustrating OCTGN game last night where I saw one piece of ice in the first 17 cards of my deck - and it wasn't even ETR. And no Jacksons. Eighteen ice in that deck, too.
When I lost, the next five cards in R&D were three cheap pieces of ETR ice and two Jacksons. Aaaargh.
0
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Just realized that Feint is actually a fantastic counter to Crisium Grid.
Feint reads, ..."If the run is successful, you may not access cards." But, Crisium Grid cancels that out. This means that the runner does in fact access cards, which allows them to trash Crisium Grid (and get a card from HQ)!
Just picturing my friend's face (who plays a Crisium/Off the Grid deck in HB) when I Feint, trash Crisium, SOT the Feint, and then run his suddenly unprotected agenda. :P
Just realized that Feint is actually a fantastic counter to Crisium Grid.
Feint reads, ..."If the run is successful, you may not access cards." But, Crisium Grid cancels that out. This means that the runner does in fact access cards, which allows them to trash Crisium Grid (and get a card from HQ)!
Just picturing my friend's face (who plays a Crisium/Off the Grid deck in HB) when I Feint, trash Crisium, SOT the Feint, and then run his suddenly unprotected agenda. :P
If he's not already putting Guards on HQ he is doing it wrong!
Endaro on
+2
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
probably won't matter very much for stateside/asian Netrunner players, but it could be important for those of you in Europe:
Same rez cost, same strength, same influence. Sagittarius's main advantage seems to be that it can't be clicked through. At the same time, it has only the one subroutine, which isn't guaranteed a trash even if the runner doesn't break (unless you commit to spending an additional 3).
I'm honestly not seeing many instances where I want Sagittarius over Ichi. Ichi is usually only rezzed when the runner doesn't have clicks left (or not many, anyway), or if you're deliberately trying to tax the runner. There's also no additional cost - 5 is a bit expensive to rez ice, and 8 is downright hard, even if you trash a program. Not being able to click through is good, but S4 does make it vulnerable to Atman and Datasucker+Mimic, and a single subroutine isn't hard to deal with.
I dunno... I guess it depends on your build now. I could see Sagitarius being seriously taxing with that trace, and you still get to blow up a program? Ichi 1.0 is probably still better in most scenarios but I can see a home for Sagit.
// PSN: wyrd_warrior // MHW Name: Josei //
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I dunno... I guess it depends on your build now. I could see Sagitarius being seriously taxing with that trace, and you still get to blow up a program? Ichi 1.0 is probably still better in most scenarios but I can see a home for Sagit.
Sagitarius is only taxing if you have a program out but not a sentry breaker that can hit strength 4... how often is that, and wouldn't you rather have a roto?
So, it turns out that spending all that time in the car listening to Terminal 7 has created an association in my brain between Netrunner and my Speedometer; whenever I glance at it, I think of the game.
I haven't played it in over a week.
This may be a problem.
+1
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Took a Leela Patel deck out for a spin tonight. Really fun! Definitely I think a runner that takes advantage of openings rather than plays strict control. Indexing is the better choice over RDI for that reason, same with Legwork I think. Having a credible archives threat is useful too. Can't wait for that incendiary somethingorother event in O&C that trashes duplicates of installed ice when you hit them in Archives. Was using a Hemorrhage, and it worked pretty well I think at keeping their hand size down and forcing them to deal with additional pressure. Have a sneaking suspicion that Crescentus is better than Emergency Shutdown.
Well, the big difference between Crescentus and ES is that for the former you have to get through the ice somehow first, whereas with ES you can hit any rezzed ice on the field.
Crescentus is pretty great if you're prepared to break whatever ice might get rezzed, so that you can just derez it right away and run through to that server again, but I think ES opens up more options before you start running the relevant server.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
The problem with ES is that you have to run HQ first, in the same turn. When people see a blue runner in front of them, HQ is the first thing to get iced up, and usually the most heavy.
True, but ES is more able to get you through big stuff like Archer, Janus, Heimdall etc. It'll also get you through a Lotus field if you're relying on Datasuckers for your Code Gate breaker.
It's an interesting comparison, really. I feel like ES is a bit more flexible and better at taking down tough, dangerous, ice but Crescentus is good at capitalizing on a strong lead.
Still playing starter decks on OCTGN, mainly as I'm just not wanting to invest the time in deck building. Just want to load a deck and go.
I am learning about the wider card pool though as many people seem to want to play one game of core and then bust out their super deck 'just for fun'. Which is fair enough, they indulged me in a pleb game first so I'm happy to let them quickly wreck me and move on.
Does feel good when you give them a run (lol) for the for their money though. Even managed a win with the core Kate deck! The corp deck was heavily code gate themed and by pure chance I dropped Gordian on turn 1 which helped.
That's a bit mean playing competitive quality decks against beginners, I like playing my silly decks against people with starters.
Deck building is pretty fun though with all the online tools. The first step is cutting the stuff you dislike from the core decks and looking for better versions/increasing the numbers of the fun cards. The deluxe expansions have premade deck lists as well you could check out.
I think deck building can seem more intimidating than it really is to start with. Like, if you just start from the core Gabe decks and remove the Access to Globalsecs and add an actual code gate breaker and something else you liked from one of the other two decks then you've already built a better deck.
Still playing starter decks on OCTGN, mainly as I'm just not wanting to invest the time in deck building. Just want to load a deck and go.
I am learning about the wider card pool though as many people seem to want to play one game of core and then bust out their super deck 'just for fun'. Which is fair enough, they indulged me in a pleb game first so I'm happy to let them quickly wreck me and move on.
Does feel good when you give them a run (lol) for the for their money though. Even managed a win with the core Kate deck! The corp deck was heavily code gate themed and by pure chance I dropped Gordian on turn 1 which helped.
Firstly, good work on winning with core set decks.
Secondly, great tips from Dis' and Epimer.
Finally, if you need any help deck building just let us know.
In fact I can provide you with some solid core set only deck lists if you want to try them.
I'm sure I'll come to it when I get bored of the starter decks. It's honestly time, not intimidation. Time spent building is time not spent playing and available play time can be very short these days!
Posts
I definitely agree, though I think that's often more by coincidence than intent. If the choice is between fun and effective, the tournament deck will and should choose effective, which over time tends to really narrow the card pool down to only the most reliable, efficient, and powerful cards.
I don't mean to say that tournament play isn't or can't be fun, just that I don't think it's for me. It tends to dominate the conversation, but I'm glad it's not the only viable way to play. I think I would feel compelled to get really good at the dominant Andy/NEH archtypes, or get good enough at their dominant counters to beat them (which I probably don't have the skill to pull off), or bring my silly decks and lose. Instead it's just everyone playing decks that interest them. The community aspect of it allows us to avoid a lot of the fatigue from repeated playstyles, or frustration with over powered cards, without needing official actions like hard-counters and phased-out cards.
Quetzal: Free Spirit (First Contact)
Event (9)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow) •••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
Hardware (5)
3x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount) ••••• •
2x Grimoire (Core Set)
Resource (11)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Liberated Account (Trace Amount)
3x The Supplier (First Contact) ••••• •
Icebreaker (8)
1x Corroder (Core Set)
3x Knight (Mala Tempora)
2x Mimic (Core Set)
2x Yog.0 (Core Set)
Program (12)
3x D4v1d (The Spaces Between)
2x Datasucker (Core Set)
2x Imp (What Lies Ahead)
2x Medium (Core Set)
3x Parasite (Core Set)
15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to First Contact
Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.
E3 is a no brainer, but I'm trying out the supplier for econ. I had an initial idea with inject for card draw, but it meant I needed to find space for Deja Vu/Retrieval run, which also seemed really click intensive.
But yeah I would usually want more resources/hardware to pair him up with.
cyberfeeders
hard at work
sure gambles / lucky finds
maybe grifters
i should try queen's gambit more
i am just so bad at playing anarch
i played my ridiculous Andy deck this morning once and won with it
it's nothing but ice destruction, emergency shutdown, and 3x medium
i named it "charge"
i was playing some jinteki PE guy who rushed some remotes with lots of advancement tokens and cheap ice
i was real scared cuz i saw a ronin in his R&D but i refused to change the plan and kept sallying forth. They were all agendas and traps I guess because I just kept drawing and running through 3 snares until I found the points I needed.
Jinteki: Personal Evolution (Core Set)
Agenda (10)
3x Fetal AI (Trace Amount)
3x House of Knives (Honor and Profit)
1x Philotic Entanglement (Honor and Profit)
3x The Future Perfect (Honor and Profit)
Asset (14)
3x Hostile Infrastructure (All That Remains)
3x Mental Health Clinic (Honor and Profit)
2x Project Junebug (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)
3x Sundew (Mala Tempora)
Upgrade (3)
3x Shell Corporation (All That Remains)
Operation (12)
2x Diversified Portfolio (Honor and Profit)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Neural EMP (Core Set)
2x Scorched Earth (Core Set) ····· ···
2x SEA Source (Core Set) ····
Code Gate (2)
2x Yagura (Fear and Loathing)
Sentry (8)
2x Gemini (All That Remains)
3x Komainu (Honor and Profit)
3x Pup (Honor and Profit)
Cards in deck: 49 (min 45)
12/15 influence used
Agenda Points: 20
Cards up to All That Remains
Deck built with Net Deck.
The win condition is a bit shaky, but I can do sneaky stuff like protect shell corp with a snare or fetal
Obviously it needs work. I've got to find something to spend that last three influence on.
Jinteki always seems to have more cards that I think are cool and want to include than I have space for in the deck. It's a lovely change from what they used to be.
seems like you get crushed by someone who runs your centrals and your advanced facedown cards and leaves your assets alone
upping the damage of snare to 4 is nice, but there's still only 3 in the deck, and you have no jackson to recur them
i think you either need stronger ice or some fast advance
I honestly wonder if one could play a PE deck that uses 2/3 Cerebral Overwriters, 0-2 Jacksons, and the Grail ice. Stupid 9 influence, but Merlin is a nice set of 2 net damage that could be up to 6 potentially, off a code gate (or up to 4 off a Barrier or Sentry). 9 ice is about right for a shell deck anyway. No room for a Scorch though unless you don't run the Overwriters.
Not sure yet, I haven't gotten a lot of playtesting in
Fetal has to stay in because it's net damage I don't pay for, but I may rework the deck for trick of light shenanigans, with braintrust and medical breakthrough
Jinteki is really tough to build since you want traps and then all the other stuff that every deck needs
When I lost, the next five cards in R&D were three cheap pieces of ETR ice and two Jacksons. Aaaargh.
Feint reads, ..."If the run is successful, you may not access cards." But, Crisium Grid cancels that out. This means that the runner does in fact access cards, which allows them to trash Crisium Grid (and get a card from HQ)!
Just picturing my friend's face (who plays a Crisium/Off the Grid deck in HB) when I Feint, trash Crisium, SOT the Feint, and then run his suddenly unprotected agenda. :P
If he's not already putting Guards on HQ he is doing it wrong!
http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=5212
FFG is merging with a French distributor/publisher
It won't impact any UK based folks as Asmodee already own the UK distributor Esdevium, so expect no change to the 'amazing' service
Same rez cost, same strength, same influence. Sagittarius's main advantage seems to be that it can't be clicked through. At the same time, it has only the one subroutine, which isn't guaranteed a trash even if the runner doesn't break (unless you commit to spending an additional 3).
I'm honestly not seeing many instances where I want Sagittarius over Ichi. Ichi is usually only rezzed when the runner doesn't have clicks left (or not many, anyway), or if you're deliberately trying to tax the runner. There's also no additional cost - 5 is a bit expensive to rez ice, and 8 is downright hard, even if you trash a program. Not being able to click through is good, but S4 does make it vulnerable to Atman and Datasucker+Mimic, and a single subroutine isn't hard to deal with.
I dunno... I guess it depends on your build now. I could see Sagitarius being seriously taxing with that trace, and you still get to blow up a program? Ichi 1.0 is probably still better in most scenarios but I can see a home for Sagit.
Sagitarius is only taxing if you have a program out but not a sentry breaker that can hit strength 4... how often is that, and wouldn't you rather have a roto?
I'm not saying it does in every deck, but it can have a home.
I've never felt the need to try it out again, either.
I haven't played it in over a week.
This may be a problem.
Crescentus is pretty great if you're prepared to break whatever ice might get rezzed, so that you can just derez it right away and run through to that server again, but I think ES opens up more options before you start running the relevant server.
It's an interesting comparison, really. I feel like ES is a bit more flexible and better at taking down tough, dangerous, ice but Crescentus is good at capitalizing on a strong lead.
I am learning about the wider card pool though as many people seem to want to play one game of core and then bust out their super deck 'just for fun'. Which is fair enough, they indulged me in a pleb game first so I'm happy to let them quickly wreck me and move on.
Does feel good when you give them a run (lol) for the for their money though. Even managed a win with the core Kate deck! The corp deck was heavily code gate themed and by pure chance I dropped Gordian on turn 1 which helped.
Deck building is pretty fun though with all the online tools. The first step is cutting the stuff you dislike from the core decks and looking for better versions/increasing the numbers of the fun cards. The deluxe expansions have premade deck lists as well you could check out.
Firstly, good work on winning with core set decks.
Secondly, great tips from Dis' and Epimer.
Finally, if you need any help deck building just let us know.
In fact I can provide you with some solid core set only deck lists if you want to try them.
Even core set + What Lies Ahead would work, too.
I don't always build and play with every deck I build, but it's a fun mental exercise.
I'm phone posting but they are here:
http://netrunners.co.uk/forumdirectory/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=107
Happy to do other factions if you want them.