If you don't think the effect your child leaving has on others matters, you don't think the GAME matters.
Just because YOU don't care about the game, doesn't mean other people don't, and once again you're missing the underlying point. What you think about the game is irrelevant to the matter i'm trying to put across. That your treating others as something you don't have to care about, especially because they or your interaction with them is 'not part of the real world' is an extremely dangerous view to have.
Would you start playing football in the park in the middle of a friendly soccer game just because you don't like soccer? Would you tell your kids to just go play in the middle of the game for the same reason? It's as someone earlier in the thread said; would you turn the TV off for a room full of people just because it's time for your child to eat? Would you turn it off for the whole room just because you don't like what's on? Because i'm pretty certain most people would consider you an asshole for doing these things. So why is it okay to do it to people online? Because you don't know them, or because you don't think you'll experience any consequences for it? Either one is a shitty lesson to give a child, and it's a lesson too many young adults and teenagers are having now and suddenly finding that their actions online can and will have consequences they never knew about.
I really think that your passion toward this online game is sort of making you unable to see just how irrational you're being right now.
The cut of your jib in your posts as far as "consequences" for leaving a game early toward the parents or other players in general is also kind of disconcerting.
I'm just saying, it's also not okay to harass and abuse other people online for any reason, let alone because they quit a game early.
A few points;
As I said earlier, I haven't had this issue in the game, and this as an issue specifically isn't one I particularly care about. 99% of the people who leave games don't say a word as to why. My problem is that I feel a lot of people, especially those who you would NOT find in either the League or PA community, justify their parenting decision not based on the prioritisation, but will actively tell their child they don't care about the people they're playing with online, and make no attempt to install the idea in children that their actions online have consequences.
With regards to my comments ON consequences, I'm not talking about giving or producing consequences for those who leave games, or towards parents who force people to leave games. My comments are in regard to the larger issue of not being aware of the consequences online actions have; that you can be sued for death threats made to people online, that making rape threats towards someone on Twitter is not going to be laughed off or deleted and forgotten. While it may seem obvious to people who have a deeper penetration of internet culture, the fact that these cases crop up on a weekly if not daily basis clearly indicates that this is both a growing problem and one that people aren't coming to grips with early in their lives.
I'm not at all saying you should harass or abuse people online for ANY reason, especially having to leave a game early. What i'm saying is that parents displaying a dismissive attitude towards online-only personal interactions does lead to people developing these habits because they never have instilled in them a respect for people that they don't know 'in the real world.'
If you don't think the effect your child leaving has on others matters, you don't think the GAME matters.
Just because YOU don't care about the game, doesn't mean other people don't, and once again you're missing the underlying point. What you think about the game is irrelevant to the matter i'm trying to put across. That your treating others as something you don't have to care about, especially because they or your interaction with them is 'not part of the real world' is an extremely dangerous view to have.
In an ideal world, the child would get taught a lesson about time management and the LoL players wouldn't have their precious ELOs negatively impacted. But in the real world, the parent must weigh the impact on the other players' ELO against disciplining their child. As a parent, the choice is obvious.
Would you start playing football in the park in the middle of a friendly soccer game just because you don't like soccer? Would you tell your kids to just go play in the middle of the game for the same reason? It's as someone earlier in the thread said; would you turn the TV off for a room full of people just because it's time for your child to eat? Would you turn it off for the whole room just because you don't like what's on? Because i'm pretty certain most people would consider you an asshole for doing these things. So why is it okay to do it to people online? Because you don't know them, or because you don't think you'll experience any consequences for it? Either one is a shitty lesson to give a child, and it's a lesson too many young adults and teenagers are having now and suddenly finding that their actions online can and will have consequences they never knew about.
Too many broken analogies to tackle.
No one is shutting down LoL. You can still play your precious game. How is this any worse than getting saddled with an incompetent player on your PUG? It happens. One loss won't make or break your gaming reputation.
If you don't think the effect your child leaving has on others matters, you don't think the GAME matters.
Just because YOU don't care about the game, doesn't mean other people don't, and once again you're missing the underlying point. What you think about the game is irrelevant to the matter i'm trying to put across. That your treating others as something you don't have to care about, especially because they or your interaction with them is 'not part of the real world' is an extremely dangerous view to have.
Would you start playing football in the park in the middle of a friendly soccer game just because you don't like soccer? Would you tell your kids to just go play in the middle of the game for the same reason? It's as someone earlier in the thread said; would you turn the TV off for a room full of people just because it's time for your child to eat? Would you turn it off for the whole room just because you don't like what's on? Because i'm pretty certain most people would consider you an asshole for doing these things. So why is it okay to do it to people online? Because you don't know them, or because you don't think you'll experience any consequences for it? Either one is a shitty lesson to give a child, and it's a lesson too many young adults and teenagers are having now and suddenly finding that their actions online can and will have consequences they never knew about.
I really think that your passion toward this online game is sort of making you unable to see just how irrational you're being right now.
The cut of your jib in your posts as far as "consequences" for leaving a game early toward the parents or other players in general is also kind of disconcerting.
I'm just saying, it's also not okay to harass and abuse other people online for any reason, let alone because they quit a game early.
A few points;
As I said earlier, I haven't had this issue in the game, and this as an issue specifically isn't one I particularly care about. 99% of the people who leave games don't say a word as to why. My problem is that I feel a lot of people, especially those who you would NOT find in either the League or PA community, justify their parenting decision not based on the prioritisation, but will actively tell their child they don't care about the people they're playing with online, and make no attempt to install the idea in children that their actions online have consequences.
With regards to my comments ON consequences, I'm not talking about giving or producing consequences for those who leave games, or towards parents who force people to leave games. My comments are in regard to the larger issue of not being aware of the consequences online actions have; that you can be sued for death threats made to people online, that making rape threats towards someone on Twitter is not going to be laughed off or deleted and forgotten. While it may seem obvious to people who have a deeper penetration of internet culture, the fact that these cases crop up on a weekly if not daily basis clearly indicates that this is both a growing problem and one that people aren't coming to grips with early in their lives.
I'm not at all saying you should harass or abuse people online for ANY reason, especially having to leave a game early. What i'm saying is that parents displaying a dismissive attitude towards online-only personal interactions does lead to people developing these habits because they never have instilled in them a respect for people that they don't know 'in the real world.'
And I'll just repeat myself in this post. You're seriously reaching if you think that.
The thing that you don't see is that it is absolutely their right as a parent to say that to their child. Because the principle that a child should be obedient to their parent in nearly every situation—to use your example, they shouldn't listen to their mom if she tells them to "go play in traffic" or something equally absurd/unsound—trumps that of finishing a match out. It doesn't matter where they are, be it online or offline. If a parent tells their kid "stop doing thing X and do thing Y," that child should do it. As inconvenienced as you may be, your feelings don't matter in that situation. One of these obligations is simply greater than the other. It's not a "you don't matter because you're not people", it's a "you don't matter because you don't pay the bills/and I'm their parent." They're not training their child to exhibit antisocial behavior online; they're training them to listen to what they say.
That's not a post-tech household concept either; the only thing that's changed is parents have gone from telling their kids to come in the house and bring their toys (which the parent likely paid for anyway) with them, sorry neighborhood kids; those are my rules.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
I know I'm oversimplifying but god damn does it feel like everyone who agrees with the letter doesn't have children at all.
Maybe It's just a perspective thing, but I really think that unless you have children of your own, you don't really have perspective on this. I mean I was as big a gamer as anyone in my 20s, and I don't raid in wow anymore because I have responsibilities. And if you care that much about ELO, maybe don't play around bed time? How is that for an option?
I had to make an account to participate in this thread and i wonder how old are your kids, im a parent of young kids that are not playing online games yet, but i have taken care of the parenting of young relatives whose parents were not around and certainly it does bother me the reasoning game parents are using. Its a magic fictional man that doesnt exists therefore the kid is right as long as he obeys me.
If your kid is playing a ranked game and he has to go do something else, remove the game entirely, if you can wait, fine, wait, if you cant, then dont and unplug the computer, but its "GG" for little Timmy foray into MOBAs. What i am saying is that if your kid has to leave a ranked game and you are not punishing him, then you are teaching the wrong lesson.
And i dont know how old Tycho kids are, but im sure he is not the son of a teenager, so he is having a big Dunning-Kruger on parenting, dont be an asshole is one of the most important attributes to teach, when i was a kid being an asshole meant getting an ass beating.
Therefore when little Rod is old enough to play ranked online matches, and i he gets to choose between 9 strangers and his family, ill make him choose his family, like Tycho, but i would certainly tear him a new one because he was an asshole to other 9 REAL people.
I'm 21 and have no kids and I think anyone who thinks an arbitrary number online matters more than family obligation then they have their priorities screwed up.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet. I have no problem with a child being told to get off League if they've joined a game trying to extend their bedtime, or because they've failed to communicate with their parents.
But I do think there are a lot of parents out there who aren't sufficiently educated in their child's hobbies, especially online play, and how they effect other people, and will make arbitrary decisions that effect others, and actively profess that they don't care about the impact of their actions, or the actions they can force upon their children, online.
I'm not sure where you "see" these Luddite parents, but I'm pretty sure they don't read and comment on the Penny Arcade or LoL forums.
Yes, parents should understand their children's hobbies and when things like quitting a game might actually impact others.
I don't think it's reaching to say that if a child is repeatedly told by a parent that they don't care about the people they interact with online, the child is going to question whether they should either. What you consider the justification for your decision, and the lessons your child learns from that decision can and often are wildly disparate if careful consideration isn't given to the repercussions of the attitude presented. People have been smacking children for years, and justifying it by saying that the pain tells them that they shouldn't do that thing again. What it tells them is to fear the person causing the pain. You don't learn WHY you shouldn't do something, you learn not to piss off Daddy, and that whatever you were doing pisses him off.
As I've said in my other posts, if you're telling your child WHY they need to stop playing, that they shouldn't commit time they don't have, that they have other commitments they need to consider and that eating dinner with family isn't negotiable, great, fine, no problem.
But if the only justification you give your child is because you tell them to, then you're not teaching them ANYTHING about the situation, only that they should listen to you. Then they'll draw their own conclusions about why YOU don't want them doing it. And if the only common ground is that you're playing with people online, they're gonna conclude people online don't matter.
I am an adult gamer and an uncle to several children, though not a parent. I can't agree with Tycho's sentiments enough! Great comic, well said.
The people crying out and saying that Tycho is wrong and that parents are teaching kids to disregard people online because they don't matter when forcing them to quit games early are clearly not living in reality.
It's not that the people online don't matter, it's that peoples recreational entertainment isn't as important as kids doing what they are told to do by their parents. No one is saying that kids should quit games to intentionally screw up other peoples enjoyment.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
I don't think it's reaching to say that if a child is repeatedly told by a parent that they don't care about the people they interact with online, the child is going to question whether they should either.
Now who's oversimplifying?
If anything, the child is learning that they need to be extra mindful about their gaming time, because it does affect other players in online games. You seem to be upset about some mythical parent yelling at their kid from downstairs to, "Turn off that damn computernator game Leagues of Warcraft and come down to supper or I'll tan your hide with my switch!" That parent might exist somewhere, but they are getting fewer and far between. Many parents are/were gamers and are fully cognizant of what it means to quit a game mid-match.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
I would really really be interested in a poll where people could agree or disagree with the original open letter, but would have to say how old they actually were and if they had children.
over 30 and I have a 3 year old, and absolutely, I assert my will as ultimate law. Someone asked if they would turn off a TV in the family room to get the kid to eat. Absolutely. I would apologize to the rest of the people in the room, but I would turn off the TV to make my point. In a world where oppositional defiance disorder exists, as well as other behavioral issues, it's... ignorant, at best, to assume how other children can be parented.
The only thing the internet has changed in regards to childs play is that children can encounter people outside there specific age ranges while playing games. Hopefully when my kid is older and plays online games, they will make smart decisions, but he's just a kid and I fully expect him to push the boundaries of the limitations set on them. But I'm not budging my parenting just for you.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
Every comment that says "Why should I care about the game other people are playing" is a specified example of the larger problem. The only difference between "Why should I care about the consequences of my actions to the game other people are playing" and "Why should I care about the consequences of my actions to other people" is the activity being discussed. I didn't come here to cause an argument, simply to highlight what I consider to be an important and overlooked issue in the conversation; that there is another lesson about interactions with people on a LARGER SCALE than just the game, that gets taught when this attitude towards people's actions online is reinforced again and again.
League of Legends is just a game, and its score doesn't matter. But when the attitude parents take towards the people online is that they don't care about the game, so they don't have to care about the consequences their actions have on the people playing it, there is a larger issue there with the attitudes that are imparted to their children.
First off, let me apologize for my crass joke, but it does seem like some attitudes aren't far off from actually using that in a non-tongue in cheek manner.
Secondly, I don't have a horse in this race since I neither play LoL nor am a parent yet, so I imagine that most people aren't going to care about what I jadedly add to the discussion.
That being said, once you decide to play a game online, the onus is on you to put yourself in a position to gain the most enjoyment out of your experience. Like other people have said, if stats and rankings are important to your entertainment experience then don't PUG, find yourself a clan, it shouldn't be that hard of a concept.
On the child-rearing front, I babysat my pre-teen niece this past summer a lot of which was teaching the ins and outs of WoW, which I realize is a slightly different animal than LoL, but bear with me. While we were both playing WoW, we were playing vastly different games and I often had to remind her that we were playing with other people and if she wanted to do continue to do dungeons she needed to pay attention be serious because everyone else was being serious. I generally sent apology whispers at the beginning of the dungeon explaining that my niece was still learning the ropes and most were nice about it. Around level 40 I stopped carrying her (as a healer) because she had this "I don't care" attitude about staying in moonkin form, rolling need on gear she couldn't use, staying with the group. etc and I wasn't going to continue with her being a liability. She's started getting kicked out of groups and when she whines to me about it, I calmly explain why it's happening. She also knows better than to start a dungeon or pvp session right before her reading time or homework time because she's finally figured out that if she does the things she needs to do then she has more time to play the games that she wants.
Sure, someone dropping out of your team/group/raid, etc is annoying as hell and will probably lead to a loss, wipe, or whatever, but the sun is still going to rise tomorrow morning...y'know, probably.
I found the comic, post, and the letter to really miss the simple solution -- uninstall the game.
I think the letter was trying to avoid the uninstall -- it's suggestion was to let your kid play, but only if you're OK with disciplining your child in a way that doesn't disrespect 9 other people. And let's be clear -- this isn't really about stats pages or win-loss records, but about the 30-50 minutes of time that people invest in the game. That's a long time when you have other commitments. And it's not the game designers' job to develop around your parenting preferences, though letting people quit the game when it's a 4v5 would be a nice change.
If me putting my foot down results in disrespecting 9 other people, I'm not going to let my kid put me in that position again. Finish the game, don't finish the game, whatever -- but uninstall the game after whatever choice you make.
The first time, it's the kid's fault. But every time after that, I'm blaming the parent for not putting the foot down hard enough. There are plenty of other games out there that don't have this problem. Your kid doesn't have to play this one.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
Every comment that says "Why should I care about the game other people are playing" is a specified example of the larger problem.
No, none of them is. Every single of this comment is stating that parenting is more important than an online game, and the only reason it's an online game is that this is an Open Letter about LoL. If it were an open letter about kids playing soccer in the park, stating that parents should let the kid finish the game because he owns the soccer ball, these comments would say "Why should I care about the game other people are playing" just the same.
And the reason they say that is because they compare it to PARENTING, and it isn't as important. You're misquoting everyone. It's well understood by all here, except you apparently, that when someone in this thread is exclaiming that they don't give a shit about the game, they don't mean "I don't give a shit about the game", they mean "I don't give a shit about the game WHEN WEIGHED AGAINST PARENTING." You're purposely removing part of their statement to make them look like they think whatever happens online doesn't matter because it's online, which is a nonsensical thing you're doing.
I don't think it's reaching to say that if a child is repeatedly told by a parent that they don't care about the people they interact with online, the child is going to question whether they should either.
Now who's oversimplifying?
If anything, the child is learning that they need to be extra mindful about their gaming time, because it does affect other players in online games. You seem to be upset about some mythical parent yelling at their kid from downstair to, "Turn off that damn computernator game Leagues of Warcraft and come down to supper or I'll tan your hide with my switch!" That parent might exist somewhere, but they are getting fewer and far between. Many parents are/were gamers and are fully cognizant of what it means to quit a game mid-match.
I think you vastly over-estimate the number of households where parents grew up gaming. While it's popularity has exploded in recent years, that's within the past 15-20. So while I'm sure there's a fair proportion or new or first-time parents who did game as a child, there's still a huge proportion for whom gaming or just 'the internet' was NOT an experience they were raised with. Even some who were still won't have used it to the extent most children do today.
Gaming parents do NOT make up the vast majority of households. I'm not concerned about some mythical parent yelling at their kid and threatening them with a switch.
I'm concerned about the very real households where parents openly dismiss the importance of those online interactions as not being real. Of parents who don't just prioritise familial commitments over leisure time, but actively dismiss any importance in or significance in these interactions whatsoever.
And I don't voice this concern because I think that's the sort of people who i'm going to find on here, or on the LoL forums.
I'm voicing it because I think that's who the target of the open letter was in the first place. And I think most of the people who are come across this letter are likely outside of this audience as well unless actively directed to it by someone who plays.
I don't know if today's comic is "inside baseball" or if I'm just drifting farther away from what counts as "mainstream gaming news", but today was yet another comic where I had to wait for the newspost to provide context.
Also, I really really hope some jerk kid's forum post doesn't actually count as news. I mean, it doesn't, right? Right?
I'm loathe to even legitimize it by discussing it, but might as well since I'm here. There is nothing wrong with the concepts of teaching your children time management and respect for others. I should hope my children learn how to properly estimate time and commitments, and I'll be supporting their learning of these skills. However, the letter itself reads like it was written by an entitled little shit who's never had a real commitment in their life, so I can't actually take it seriously.
Time management is important. You know what's equally important? Learning that an ephemeral number assigned to your recreational activity isn't.
I mean, the dude can't even really be serious about his ranking. If he was, he wouldn't be queuing with randoms.
I'm not yet a parent, but I take care of my niece. We both love games very much. I don't understand Danjc2 here, because here's the thing -- there are many consequences to one action. In this case, if you decide to leave the game, you're being a dick to your four teammates. If you don't leave the game, then you undermine the authority of your parents. Since when did other people (or your game experience), become more important than family and other real world stuff?
Even if you remove the word "parent" and replace it with "ruthless dictator who holds my life in his hands", common sense tells me that I go with said dictator.
Love my parents BTW, and will leave any game if they call me to dinner.
I'm not yet a parent, but I take care of my niece. We both love games very much. I don't understand Danjc2 here, because here's the thing -- there are many consequences to one action. In this case, if you decide to leave the game, you're being a dick to your four teammates. If you don't leave the game, then you undermine the authority of your parents. Since when did other people (or your game experience), become more important than family and other real world stuff?
Even if you remove the word "parent" and replace it with "ruthless dictator who holds my life in his hands", common sense tells me that I go with said dictator.
Love my parents BTW, and will leave any game if they call me to dinner.
Leaving an online game for any reason at all does not make one a "dick". Shit happens. We all have reasons we might have to walk away instead of finishing that match/raid/dungeon/whatever. That just means we're humans attempting to juggle a variety of responsibilities and relationships. Sometimes a recreational activity will have to be abandoned, but hey, that's life.
I'm sorry if those four other players never learned to deal with disappointment.
I mean let's get something clear here. The kid has already taken an action that is going to make them look like a jerk. There is no avoiding it, they mismanaged their time.
And they can either be a jerk to internet strangers by saying they mismanaged their time but it's time for dinner with the family and that's more important.
Or they can be a jerk to their family by saying they mismanaged their time but playing a game with strangers is more important.
I'm not yet a parent, but I take care of my niece. We both love games very much. I don't understand Danjc2 here, because here's the thing -- there are many consequences to one action. In this case, if you decide to leave the game, you're being a dick to your four teammates. If you don't leave the game, then you undermine the authority of your parents. Since when did other people (or your game experience), become more important than family and other real world stuff?
Even if you remove the word "parent" and replace it with "ruthless dictator who holds my life in his hands", common sense tells me that I go with said dictator.
Love my parents BTW, and will leave any game if they call me to dinner.
Leaving an online game for any reason at all does not make one a "dick". Shit happens. We all have reasons we might have to walk away instead of finishing that match/raid/dungeon/whatever. That just means we're humans attempting to juggle a variety of responsibilities and relationships. Sometimes a recreational activity will have to be abandoned, but hey, that's life.
I'm sorry if those four other players never learned to deal with disappointment.
Yeah, sorry for the terminology, I'm just using his line of reasoning.
I don't think PA had any real idea what they were talking about with this comic. They don't quite get the scenario.
See, LoL players care as much about the parents' parenting skills as the parents care about LoL player's stats. That should be understood on both ends. The PA comic is assuming gamers should care about parenting skills... but no, gamers -rightly- don't give a shit about it, it isn't their business, and it isn't at all what the 'Letter to parents...' thing was saying anyways. It was actually giving useful information on what the kid is doing, and it's effect on others.
It was saying that some kid is wasting everyone elses time, and the parents are facilitating that. This is everything that the players are annoyed about. Parents don't have to care about a gamer's time, but what's happening is that this letter is gamers giving out information on the situation, and ideas to solve it in everyone's best interests. If a parent wants to say "screw you, I'm not listening", then they're the only ones being irrational, undiplomatic, and stupid as shit for it.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault. We don't need to have kids to understand the situation... rather, it's a reason why I don't have kids in the first place! Don't cook up the responsibility if you're not going to eat it.
Parents will handle situations like this differently in the context of organized sports their children are in, because they are games with other people in them. This scenario ought to be looked at the same.
And yeah I'm using the term jerk loosely here. If someone told me they can't keep playing a game cause dinner with the family I'd be annoyed but understand.
If family said they couldn't make it to a family obligation because of a game with strangers I would be rightfully pissed.
I think you vastly over-estimate the number of households where parents grew up gaming. While it's popularity has exploded in recent years, that's within the past 15-20. So while I'm sure there's a fair proportion or new or first-time parents who did game as a child, there's still a huge proportion for whom gaming or just 'the internet' was NOT an experience they were raised with. Even some who were still won't have used it to the extent most children do today.
And I think you vastly over-estimate the number of households where parents don't adequately understand the games their children are playing.
Gaming parents do NOT make up the vast majority of households. I'm not concerned about some mythical parent yelling at their kid and threatening them with a switch.
I'm concerned about the very real households where parents openly dismiss the importance of those online interactions as not being real. Of parents who don't just prioritise familial commitments over leisure time, but actively dismiss any importance in or significance in these interactions whatsoever.
How do you know? What percentage of households with children have parents who would self-identify as "gamers" or that play video games. Show some numbers, not just baseless conjecture.
59% of American households have gamers.
71% of those gamers are over 18.
42% of parents of children who game play with them at least weekly
58% of parents of children who game play with them at least monthly
I'm not seeing the statistics back up your assertions ...
Where are these households where parents say that the magic online people aren't real? At this point, most parents are at least on Facebook etc.
As others have said, you're arguing against some mythical straw man arguments that no one has made.
Parents will handle situations like this differently in the context of organized sports their children are in, because they are games with other people in them. This scenario ought to be looked at the same.
No, it shouldn't, because it isn't the same. LoL isn't organized. It's pick up. If it's gonna be compared to sport, it's gonna be compared to kids playing soccer in the park, and it has been multiple times in this thread.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault.
I don't think PA had any real idea what they were talking about with this comic. They don't quite get the scenario.
See, LoL players care as much about the parents' parenting skills as the parents care about LoL player's stats. That should be understood on both ends. The PA comic is assuming gamers should care about parenting skills... but no, gamers -rightly- don't give a shit about it, it isn't their business, and it isn't at all what the 'Letter to parents...' thing was saying anyways. It was actually giving useful information on what the kid is doing, and it's effect on others.
It was saying that some kid is wasting everyone elses time, and the parents are facilitating that. This is everything that the players are annoyed about. Parents don't have to care about a gamer's time, but what's happening is that this letter is gamers giving out information on the situation, and ideas to solve it in everyone's best interests. If a parent wants to say "screw you, I'm not listening", then they're the only ones being irrational, undiplomatic, and stupid as shit for it.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault. We don't need to have kids to understand the situation... rather, it's a reason why I don't have kids in the first place! Don't cook up the responsibility if you're not going to eat it.
Parents will handle situations like this differently in the context of organized sports their children are in, because they are games with other people in them. This scenario ought to be looked at the same.
No they get it fine.
Kid messed up. Didn't manage time right. Whatever, it's time for dinner turn it off. The kid will get negative ratings left at the end of the game and you'll be that much less likely to be in another game with them. And life will go on just fine.
And honestly if you don't want to play with people who are going to be of questionable reliability don't play with strangers. It's a huge community and there are loads of clans who you can rely on to put in every bit as much effort as you do in to making sure they're available to play.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
Not at all, first it establishes that tryndamere isnt real as in "its just a game" and then rants about how difficult it is to care for newborn babies, which makes me wonder how old his kids are.
All parents will cave in to their kids at some points, you understimate kids stubborness, and teenagers are a whole different package, while newborns may be the hardest to take care physically (debatable), they are the easiest to parent, since they are at that point just extremely complicated pets.
Its an oversimplification of an extremely complex issue and one which is not drawn from experience.
I don't think PA had any real idea what they were talking about with this comic. They don't quite get the scenario.
See, LoL players care as much about the parents' parenting skills as the parents care about LoL player's stats. That should be understood on both ends. The PA comic is assuming gamers should care about parenting skills... but no, gamers -rightly- don't give a shit about it, it isn't their business, and it isn't at all what the 'Letter to parents...' thing was saying anyways. It was actually giving useful information on what the kid is doing, and it's effect on others.
It was saying that some kid is wasting everyone elses time, and the parents are facilitating that. This is everything that the players are annoyed about. Parents don't have to care about a gamer's time, but what's happening is that this letter is gamers giving out information on the situation, and ideas to solve it in everyone's best interests. If a parent wants to say "screw you, I'm not listening", then they're the only ones being irrational, undiplomatic, and stupid as shit for it.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault. We don't need to have kids to understand the situation... rather, it's a reason why I don't have kids in the first place! Don't cook up the responsibility if you're not going to eat it.
Parents will handle situations like this differently in the context of organized sports their children are in, because they are games with other people in them. This scenario ought to be looked at the same.
If you consider your time wasted when someone playing a game with you stops playing before you are ready for them to stop, then maybe you are the one with the problem that needs to be examined.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
Not at all, first it establishes that tryndamere isnt real as in "its just a game" and then rants about how difficult it is to care for newborn babies, which makes me wonder how old his kids are.
All parents will cave in to their kids at some points, you understimate kids stubborness, and teenagers are a whole different package, while newborns may be the hardest to take care physically (debatable), they are the easiest to parent, since they are at that point just extremely complicated pets.
Its an oversimplification of an extremely complex issue and one which is not drawn from experience.
The issue isn't complex at all, actually. If you tell your kid it's dinner time, it's dinner time. Some person on the LoL forums has no say in the matter.
Also, the Tryndamere bit is EXACTLY the "Obeying your parents is more important than online games". Tryndamere represents LoL in this case. The point about Tryndamere not being real is that LoL is a video game, and that dinner time trumps playing a video game. That's the whole point of the comic, of the newspost, and the discussion people are having here!
As pointed out by someone before, the ranked online match doesn't matter -- not as much as parenting anyway. Sure, there are nine other people whose STATZ are affected (or whose time is wasted being super serious raising said stats), but since when did it take precedence over family time? If I leave a game, they will get annoyed as hell, but they'll play another match today or tomorrow and their collective ire is redirected from me to some other douchebag online. It's a temporary annoyance whose consequences (wasting other people's time and gaming experience) are arguably trivial -- it's not like they are doing something very productive with playing LoL anyway.
Like I understand. It sucks when someone has to drop from a game for any reason. But it doesn't matter. It matters every bit as much as any other pick up game which is not at all. If my buddy who's super good at history has to drop out of pub trivia cause he forgot he's taking the kids for ice cream oh freaking well.
Let's be 100% clear here: the letter-writer's "grievance" is not with kids playing LoL, or with parents of kids playing LoL. Broken down to it's core, he's upset that a person playing a game left before the game was complete. You can identify any number of reasons why this happens, be it kids being called to dinner, adults being called to work, etc. The reason doesn't matter. The behavior is "a person left early".
Yes. An individual you have no control over did something that you do not like for reasons that have nothing to do with you and inadvertently may affect you in a minor way.
Sounds to me like "life". I suggest that the letter-writer and supporters learn to "get over it".
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
Not at all, first it establishes that tryndamere isnt real as in "its just a game" and then rants about how difficult it is to care for newborn babies, which makes me wonder how old his kids are.
All parents will cave in to their kids at some points, you understimate kids stubborness, and teenagers are a whole different package, while newborns may be the hardest to take care physically (debatable), they are the easiest to parent, since they are at that point just extremely complicated pets.
Its an oversimplification of an extremely complex issue and one which is not drawn from experience.
The issue isn't complex at all, actually. If you tell your kid it's dinner time, it's dinner time. Some person on the LoL forums has no say in the matter.
Also, the Tryndamere bit is EXACTLY the "Obeying your parents is more important than online games". Tryndamere represents LoL in this case. The point about Tryndamere not being real is that LoL is a video game, and that dinner time trumps playing a video game. That's the whole point of the comic, of the newspost, and the discussion people are having here!
LOL that one big conclusion leap. At no point kid obedience is discussed in the comic.
1.- Tryndamere isnt represents LoL as a videogame and then it goes into a rant about how hard its to deal with newborns and that you should be grateful to your parents as a result.
2.- The discussion has never really addressed the point that a game that its problematic should either be uninstalled or that the kid should be punished for leaving ranked games, only the authority of the father is put into question. As in as long as the kid follows the authority its ok to be an asshole.
3.- Kids shouldnt even be playing LoL to begin with, once he is a grown teenager, then yes, and once that happens you dont really need to micromanage your kids unless you are an obsessive parent.
I'm concerned about the very real households where parents openly dismiss the importance of those online interactions as not being real. Of parents who don't just prioritise familial commitments over leisure time, but actively dismiss any importance in or significance in these interactions whatsoever.
There are nearly zero households where this is the lesson being taught. You know why? Because as a parent, my real concern about online interaction has absolutely nothing to do with your precious ELO. It has to do with some other very real people who mean to do some very real harm to children. Every parent and school is desperately trying to teach children that the magic people online are very real people. And everything you do and post online is as real as any in person interaction (in some cases more real and persistent). Sorry, but your assertion doesn't hold water at all.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault. We don't need to have kids to understand the situation... rather, it's a reason why I don't have kids in the first place! Don't cook up the responsibility if you're not going to eat it.
Really? Was I the one who made you join a PUG LoL game where there might be young players? I don't think so.
And gee, I'm so shocked you don't have kids.
Again, it's clear who's being selfish in this scenario, and it's not the parent or the child.
My problem is that I see too many parents arbitrarily dismiss actions as not mattering purely because they are online, without even the consideration of how their interactions with others online effect them, not just in League but in the wider world of the internet.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
Not at all, first it establishes that tryndamere isnt real as in "its just a game" and then rants about how difficult it is to care for newborn babies, which makes me wonder how old his kids are.
All parents will cave in to their kids at some points, you understimate kids stubborness, and teenagers are a whole different package, while newborns may be the hardest to take care physically (debatable), they are the easiest to parent, since they are at that point just extremely complicated pets.
Its an oversimplification of an extremely complex issue and one which is not drawn from experience.
The issue isn't complex at all, actually. If you tell your kid it's dinner time, it's dinner time. Some person on the LoL forums has no say in the matter.
Also, the Tryndamere bit is EXACTLY the "Obeying your parents is more important than online games". Tryndamere represents LoL in this case. The point about Tryndamere not being real is that LoL is a video game, and that dinner time trumps playing a video game. That's the whole point of the comic, of the newspost, and the discussion people are having here!
LOL that one big conclusion leap. At no point kid obedience is discussed in the comic.
1.- Tryndamere isnt represents LoL as a videogame and then it goes into a rant about how hard its to deal with newborns and that you should be grateful to your parents as a result.
2.- The discussion has never really addressed the point that a game that its problematic should either be uninstalled or that the kid should be punished for leaving ranked games, only the authority of the father is put into question. As in as long as the kid follows the authority its ok to be an asshole.
3.- Kids shouldnt even be playing LoL to begin with, once he is a grown teenager, then yes, and once that happens you dont really need to micromanage your kids unless you are an obsessive parent.
Honestly realizing that I'm just grinding metal on metal here, and so I think I'm going to excuse myself from the conversation, but here is the comic (again):
The statement: "when your parents tell you to turn off their computer, and eat the food they brought so that you won't die, you do it" is saying "be obedient."
Whether or not a child should be playing LoL is a thing that isn't really even relevant to the discussion at hand either. Nor do I see how/why a child should be punished for leaving a ranked game if the parent gave them the directive to leave said game. Point two also seems to conflict with your statement that obedience isn't addressed in the comic, as following the authority of the parent is in fact, being obedient.
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A few points;
As I said earlier, I haven't had this issue in the game, and this as an issue specifically isn't one I particularly care about. 99% of the people who leave games don't say a word as to why. My problem is that I feel a lot of people, especially those who you would NOT find in either the League or PA community, justify their parenting decision not based on the prioritisation, but will actively tell their child they don't care about the people they're playing with online, and make no attempt to install the idea in children that their actions online have consequences.
With regards to my comments ON consequences, I'm not talking about giving or producing consequences for those who leave games, or towards parents who force people to leave games. My comments are in regard to the larger issue of not being aware of the consequences online actions have; that you can be sued for death threats made to people online, that making rape threats towards someone on Twitter is not going to be laughed off or deleted and forgotten. While it may seem obvious to people who have a deeper penetration of internet culture, the fact that these cases crop up on a weekly if not daily basis clearly indicates that this is both a growing problem and one that people aren't coming to grips with early in their lives.
I'm not at all saying you should harass or abuse people online for ANY reason, especially having to leave a game early. What i'm saying is that parents displaying a dismissive attitude towards online-only personal interactions does lead to people developing these habits because they never have instilled in them a respect for people that they don't know 'in the real world.'
In an ideal world, the child would get taught a lesson about time management and the LoL players wouldn't have their precious ELOs negatively impacted. But in the real world, the parent must weigh the impact on the other players' ELO against disciplining their child. As a parent, the choice is obvious.
Too many broken analogies to tackle.
No one is shutting down LoL. You can still play your precious game. How is this any worse than getting saddled with an incompetent player on your PUG? It happens. One loss won't make or break your gaming reputation.
And I'll just repeat myself in this post. You're seriously reaching if you think that.
The thing that you don't see is that it is absolutely their right as a parent to say that to their child. Because the principle that a child should be obedient to their parent in nearly every situation—to use your example, they shouldn't listen to their mom if she tells them to "go play in traffic" or something equally absurd/unsound—trumps that of finishing a match out. It doesn't matter where they are, be it online or offline. If a parent tells their kid "stop doing thing X and do thing Y," that child should do it. As inconvenienced as you may be, your feelings don't matter in that situation. One of these obligations is simply greater than the other. It's not a "you don't matter because you're not people", it's a "you don't matter because you don't pay the bills/and I'm their parent." They're not training their child to exhibit antisocial behavior online; they're training them to listen to what they say.
That's not a post-tech household concept either; the only thing that's changed is parents have gone from telling their kids to come in the house and bring their toys (which the parent likely paid for anyway) with them, sorry neighborhood kids; those are my rules.
Maybe It's just a perspective thing, but I really think that unless you have children of your own, you don't really have perspective on this. I mean I was as big a gamer as anyone in my 20s, and I don't raid in wow anymore because I have responsibilities. And if you care that much about ELO, maybe don't play around bed time? How is that for an option?
If your kid is playing a ranked game and he has to go do something else, remove the game entirely, if you can wait, fine, wait, if you cant, then dont and unplug the computer, but its "GG" for little Timmy foray into MOBAs. What i am saying is that if your kid has to leave a ranked game and you are not punishing him, then you are teaching the wrong lesson.
And i dont know how old Tycho kids are, but im sure he is not the son of a teenager, so he is having a big Dunning-Kruger on parenting, dont be an asshole is one of the most important attributes to teach, when i was a kid being an asshole meant getting an ass beating.
Therefore when little Rod is old enough to play ranked online matches, and i he gets to choose between 9 strangers and his family, ill make him choose his family, like Tycho, but i would certainly tear him a new one because he was an asshole to other 9 REAL people.
Therefore both sides are right.
In fact you shouldnt even let kids play League.
I'm not sure where you "see" these Luddite parents, but I'm pretty sure they don't read and comment on the Penny Arcade or LoL forums.
Yes, parents should understand their children's hobbies and when things like quitting a game might actually impact others.
As I've said in my other posts, if you're telling your child WHY they need to stop playing, that they shouldn't commit time they don't have, that they have other commitments they need to consider and that eating dinner with family isn't negotiable, great, fine, no problem.
But if the only justification you give your child is because you tell them to, then you're not teaching them ANYTHING about the situation, only that they should listen to you. Then they'll draw their own conclusions about why YOU don't want them doing it. And if the only common ground is that you're playing with people online, they're gonna conclude people online don't matter.
The people crying out and saying that Tycho is wrong and that parents are teaching kids to disregard people online because they don't matter when forcing them to quit games early are clearly not living in reality.
It's not that the people online don't matter, it's that peoples recreational entertainment isn't as important as kids doing what they are told to do by their parents. No one is saying that kids should quit games to intentionally screw up other peoples enjoyment.
You're right in one way: that it is your problem that you're seeing that, because nobody in this thread said that. In a greater, general sense, you're right that there are people dismissing actions purely because they are online, and that is a mistake. What's happening here, however, isn't that. You're arguing with people against an argument nobody made.
Now who's oversimplifying?
If anything, the child is learning that they need to be extra mindful about their gaming time, because it does affect other players in online games. You seem to be upset about some mythical parent yelling at their kid from downstairs to, "Turn off that damn computernator game Leagues of Warcraft and come down to supper or I'll tan your hide with my switch!" That parent might exist somewhere, but they are getting fewer and far between. Many parents are/were gamers and are fully cognizant of what it means to quit a game mid-match.
The argument is being made in the comic, the reasoning is not "Obeying your parents is more important than online games" (which eveyrone agrees with) the reasoning of the comic is "Online games dont really matter because they are fictional".
I don't think we've read the same comic. The reasoning literally is "Obeying your parents is more important than online games".
over 30 and I have a 3 year old, and absolutely, I assert my will as ultimate law. Someone asked if they would turn off a TV in the family room to get the kid to eat. Absolutely. I would apologize to the rest of the people in the room, but I would turn off the TV to make my point. In a world where oppositional defiance disorder exists, as well as other behavioral issues, it's... ignorant, at best, to assume how other children can be parented.
The only thing the internet has changed in regards to childs play is that children can encounter people outside there specific age ranges while playing games. Hopefully when my kid is older and plays online games, they will make smart decisions, but he's just a kid and I fully expect him to push the boundaries of the limitations set on them. But I'm not budging my parenting just for you.
Every comment that says "Why should I care about the game other people are playing" is a specified example of the larger problem. The only difference between "Why should I care about the consequences of my actions to the game other people are playing" and "Why should I care about the consequences of my actions to other people" is the activity being discussed. I didn't come here to cause an argument, simply to highlight what I consider to be an important and overlooked issue in the conversation; that there is another lesson about interactions with people on a LARGER SCALE than just the game, that gets taught when this attitude towards people's actions online is reinforced again and again.
League of Legends is just a game, and its score doesn't matter. But when the attitude parents take towards the people online is that they don't care about the game, so they don't have to care about the consequences their actions have on the people playing it, there is a larger issue there with the attitudes that are imparted to their children.
First off, let me apologize for my crass joke, but it does seem like some attitudes aren't far off from actually using that in a non-tongue in cheek manner.
Secondly, I don't have a horse in this race since I neither play LoL nor am a parent yet, so I imagine that most people aren't going to care about what I jadedly add to the discussion.
That being said, once you decide to play a game online, the onus is on you to put yourself in a position to gain the most enjoyment out of your experience. Like other people have said, if stats and rankings are important to your entertainment experience then don't PUG, find yourself a clan, it shouldn't be that hard of a concept.
On the child-rearing front, I babysat my pre-teen niece this past summer a lot of which was teaching the ins and outs of WoW, which I realize is a slightly different animal than LoL, but bear with me. While we were both playing WoW, we were playing vastly different games and I often had to remind her that we were playing with other people and if she wanted to do continue to do dungeons she needed to pay attention be serious because everyone else was being serious. I generally sent apology whispers at the beginning of the dungeon explaining that my niece was still learning the ropes and most were nice about it. Around level 40 I stopped carrying her (as a healer) because she had this "I don't care" attitude about staying in moonkin form, rolling need on gear she couldn't use, staying with the group. etc and I wasn't going to continue with her being a liability. She's started getting kicked out of groups and when she whines to me about it, I calmly explain why it's happening. She also knows better than to start a dungeon or pvp session right before her reading time or homework time because she's finally figured out that if she does the things she needs to do then she has more time to play the games that she wants.
Sure, someone dropping out of your team/group/raid, etc is annoying as hell and will probably lead to a loss, wipe, or whatever, but the sun is still going to rise tomorrow morning...y'know, probably.
I think the letter was trying to avoid the uninstall -- it's suggestion was to let your kid play, but only if you're OK with disciplining your child in a way that doesn't disrespect 9 other people. And let's be clear -- this isn't really about stats pages or win-loss records, but about the 30-50 minutes of time that people invest in the game. That's a long time when you have other commitments. And it's not the game designers' job to develop around your parenting preferences, though letting people quit the game when it's a 4v5 would be a nice change.
If me putting my foot down results in disrespecting 9 other people, I'm not going to let my kid put me in that position again. Finish the game, don't finish the game, whatever -- but uninstall the game after whatever choice you make.
The first time, it's the kid's fault. But every time after that, I'm blaming the parent for not putting the foot down hard enough. There are plenty of other games out there that don't have this problem. Your kid doesn't have to play this one.
No, none of them is. Every single of this comment is stating that parenting is more important than an online game, and the only reason it's an online game is that this is an Open Letter about LoL. If it were an open letter about kids playing soccer in the park, stating that parents should let the kid finish the game because he owns the soccer ball, these comments would say "Why should I care about the game other people are playing" just the same.
And the reason they say that is because they compare it to PARENTING, and it isn't as important. You're misquoting everyone. It's well understood by all here, except you apparently, that when someone in this thread is exclaiming that they don't give a shit about the game, they don't mean "I don't give a shit about the game", they mean "I don't give a shit about the game WHEN WEIGHED AGAINST PARENTING." You're purposely removing part of their statement to make them look like they think whatever happens online doesn't matter because it's online, which is a nonsensical thing you're doing.
I think you vastly over-estimate the number of households where parents grew up gaming. While it's popularity has exploded in recent years, that's within the past 15-20. So while I'm sure there's a fair proportion or new or first-time parents who did game as a child, there's still a huge proportion for whom gaming or just 'the internet' was NOT an experience they were raised with. Even some who were still won't have used it to the extent most children do today.
Gaming parents do NOT make up the vast majority of households. I'm not concerned about some mythical parent yelling at their kid and threatening them with a switch.
I'm concerned about the very real households where parents openly dismiss the importance of those online interactions as not being real. Of parents who don't just prioritise familial commitments over leisure time, but actively dismiss any importance in or significance in these interactions whatsoever.
And I don't voice this concern because I think that's the sort of people who i'm going to find on here, or on the LoL forums.
I'm voicing it because I think that's who the target of the open letter was in the first place. And I think most of the people who are come across this letter are likely outside of this audience as well unless actively directed to it by someone who plays.
Also, I really really hope some jerk kid's forum post doesn't actually count as news. I mean, it doesn't, right? Right?
I'm loathe to even legitimize it by discussing it, but might as well since I'm here. There is nothing wrong with the concepts of teaching your children time management and respect for others. I should hope my children learn how to properly estimate time and commitments, and I'll be supporting their learning of these skills. However, the letter itself reads like it was written by an entitled little shit who's never had a real commitment in their life, so I can't actually take it seriously.
Time management is important. You know what's equally important? Learning that an ephemeral number assigned to your recreational activity isn't.
I mean, the dude can't even really be serious about his ranking. If he was, he wouldn't be queuing with randoms.
Even if you remove the word "parent" and replace it with "ruthless dictator who holds my life in his hands", common sense tells me that I go with said dictator.
Love my parents BTW, and will leave any game if they call me to dinner.
Leaving an online game for any reason at all does not make one a "dick". Shit happens. We all have reasons we might have to walk away instead of finishing that match/raid/dungeon/whatever. That just means we're humans attempting to juggle a variety of responsibilities and relationships. Sometimes a recreational activity will have to be abandoned, but hey, that's life.
I'm sorry if those four other players never learned to deal with disappointment.
And they can either be a jerk to internet strangers by saying they mismanaged their time but it's time for dinner with the family and that's more important.
Or they can be a jerk to their family by saying they mismanaged their time but playing a game with strangers is more important.
Yeah, sorry for the terminology, I'm just using his line of reasoning.
See, LoL players care as much about the parents' parenting skills as the parents care about LoL player's stats. That should be understood on both ends. The PA comic is assuming gamers should care about parenting skills... but no, gamers -rightly- don't give a shit about it, it isn't their business, and it isn't at all what the 'Letter to parents...' thing was saying anyways. It was actually giving useful information on what the kid is doing, and it's effect on others.
It was saying that some kid is wasting everyone elses time, and the parents are facilitating that. This is everything that the players are annoyed about. Parents don't have to care about a gamer's time, but what's happening is that this letter is gamers giving out information on the situation, and ideas to solve it in everyone's best interests. If a parent wants to say "screw you, I'm not listening", then they're the only ones being irrational, undiplomatic, and stupid as shit for it.
If -your- kid is wasting -my- time, it's -your- fault. We don't need to have kids to understand the situation... rather, it's a reason why I don't have kids in the first place! Don't cook up the responsibility if you're not going to eat it.
Parents will handle situations like this differently in the context of organized sports their children are in, because they are games with other people in them. This scenario ought to be looked at the same.
If family said they couldn't make it to a family obligation because of a game with strangers I would be rightfully pissed.
And I think you vastly over-estimate the number of households where parents don't adequately understand the games their children are playing.
How do you know? What percentage of households with children have parents who would self-identify as "gamers" or that play video games. Show some numbers, not just baseless conjecture.
There are plenty of good stats that refute your conjecture. Start by looking here:
http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
59% of American households have gamers.
71% of those gamers are over 18.
42% of parents of children who game play with them at least weekly
58% of parents of children who game play with them at least monthly
I'm not seeing the statistics back up your assertions ...
Where are these households where parents say that the magic online people aren't real? At this point, most parents are at least on Facebook etc.
As others have said, you're arguing against some mythical straw man arguments that no one has made.
No, it shouldn't, because it isn't the same. LoL isn't organized. It's pick up. If it's gonna be compared to sport, it's gonna be compared to kids playing soccer in the park, and it has been multiple times in this thread.
Actually it's the kid's fault.
No they get it fine.
Kid messed up. Didn't manage time right. Whatever, it's time for dinner turn it off. The kid will get negative ratings left at the end of the game and you'll be that much less likely to be in another game with them. And life will go on just fine.
And honestly if you don't want to play with people who are going to be of questionable reliability don't play with strangers. It's a huge community and there are loads of clans who you can rely on to put in every bit as much effort as you do in to making sure they're available to play.
Not at all, first it establishes that tryndamere isnt real as in "its just a game" and then rants about how difficult it is to care for newborn babies, which makes me wonder how old his kids are.
All parents will cave in to their kids at some points, you understimate kids stubborness, and teenagers are a whole different package, while newborns may be the hardest to take care physically (debatable), they are the easiest to parent, since they are at that point just extremely complicated pets.
Its an oversimplification of an extremely complex issue and one which is not drawn from experience.
If you consider your time wasted when someone playing a game with you stops playing before you are ready for them to stop, then maybe you are the one with the problem that needs to be examined.
The issue isn't complex at all, actually. If you tell your kid it's dinner time, it's dinner time. Some person on the LoL forums has no say in the matter.
Also, the Tryndamere bit is EXACTLY the "Obeying your parents is more important than online games". Tryndamere represents LoL in this case. The point about Tryndamere not being real is that LoL is a video game, and that dinner time trumps playing a video game. That's the whole point of the comic, of the newspost, and the discussion people are having here!
Yes. An individual you have no control over did something that you do not like for reasons that have nothing to do with you and inadvertently may affect you in a minor way.
Sounds to me like "life". I suggest that the letter-writer and supporters learn to "get over it".
LOL that one big conclusion leap. At no point kid obedience is discussed in the comic.
1.- Tryndamere isnt represents LoL as a videogame and then it goes into a rant about how hard its to deal with newborns and that you should be grateful to your parents as a result.
2.- The discussion has never really addressed the point that a game that its problematic should either be uninstalled or that the kid should be punished for leaving ranked games, only the authority of the father is put into question. As in as long as the kid follows the authority its ok to be an asshole.
3.- Kids shouldnt even be playing LoL to begin with, once he is a grown teenager, then yes, and once that happens you dont really need to micromanage your kids unless you are an obsessive parent.
There are nearly zero households where this is the lesson being taught. You know why? Because as a parent, my real concern about online interaction has absolutely nothing to do with your precious ELO. It has to do with some other very real people who mean to do some very real harm to children. Every parent and school is desperately trying to teach children that the magic people online are very real people. And everything you do and post online is as real as any in person interaction (in some cases more real and persistent). Sorry, but your assertion doesn't hold water at all.
Really? Was I the one who made you join a PUG LoL game where there might be young players? I don't think so.
And gee, I'm so shocked you don't have kids.
Again, it's clear who's being selfish in this scenario, and it's not the parent or the child.
Honestly realizing that I'm just grinding metal on metal here, and so I think I'm going to excuse myself from the conversation, but here is the comic (again):
The statement: "when your parents tell you to turn off their computer, and eat the food they brought so that you won't die, you do it" is saying "be obedient."
Whether or not a child should be playing LoL is a thing that isn't really even relevant to the discussion at hand either. Nor do I see how/why a child should be punished for leaving a ranked game if the parent gave them the directive to leave said game. Point two also seems to conflict with your statement that obedience isn't addressed in the comic, as following the authority of the parent is in fact, being obedient.
Second panel, first bubble speech, third sentence.