Whoa, sorry guys! I've been busy with real life for the past two and a half weeks so I haven't checked into the forums lately... but if the dust has settled, I'll write up the final update tonight, and close this game out officially. Sorry to leave everyone hanging!
The Naalu Collective: Activate the Mecatol Rex system. (CP 4 --> 3)
Move in 2 Cruisers, 3 Carriers, 9 Fighters, and 3 Mechanized Units from the Vega system and 1 Destroyer from the Jidval Expanse.
The trade agreement between Naalu and Yssaril is broken.
During the space battle, Naalu loses 1 Destroyer and 4 Fighters, while Yssaril loses 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 Carriers, and 1 Fighter; combat resolves in favor of Naalu.
Land 3 Mechanized Units on Mecatol Rex.
During invasion combat, Naalu damages 2 Mechanized Units while Yssaril loses 1 Shock Troop and 3 Ground Forces; combat resolves in favor of Naalu.
1 Yssaril Space Dock is destroyed. The Embers of Muaat: Activate the Yssaril Home System. (CP 3 --> 2)
Play Action Card "Flank Speed", increasing the speed of all fleets into the system by 1. (AC 6 --> 5)
Move in 2 War Suns, 7 Fighters, and 4 Ground Forces from Lisis-Velnor, loading 1 Ground Force from Bellatrix, and 1 Destroyer from Tsion-Bellatrix.
Prior to battle, Muaat plays Action Card "Flanking Tactic", preventing Yssaril retreat from the system. (AC 5 --> 4)
Yssaril plays Action Card "Friendly Fire", destroying 3 Muaat Fighters. (AC 6 --> 5)
During the space battle, Muaat suffers no losses, while Yssaril loses 2 Dreadnoughts and 1 Fighter; combat resolves in favor of Muaat.
Bombard Retillion and Shalloq each with 1 War Sun and land 5 Ground Forces on Shalloq.
Bombardment destroys 1 Shock Troop and 2 Ground Forces on Retillion and 2 Ground Forces on Shalloq; Muaat takes control of Shalloq. The Nekro Virus: Activate the Fleshly Bankruptcy system. (CP 3 --> 2)
Move in 1 Cruiser and 1 Destroyer from Dal Bootha-Xxehan.
During the space battle, Nekro suffers no losses, while Yssaril loses 1 Destroyer; combat resolves in favor of Nekro.
Nekro uses their racial ability to gain Enviro Compensator. The Xxcha Kingdom: Play the primary ability of the (3) Assembly Strategy Card.
Yssaril plays Action Card "Council Disbanded", but is cancelled by Xxcha's play of Action Card "Sabotage". (Yssaril AC 5 --> 4, Xxcha AC 6 --> 5)
Xxcha draws two Action Cards and 1 Political Card. (AC 5 --> 7, PC 0 --> 1)
Xxcha claims the Speaker Token and elects Naalu to play a Political Card.
Since Naalu has no Political Cards, the top card of the Political Card deck is drawn: Vorhal Peace Prize.
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Technology Tariffs. (SA 4 --> 3)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Forced Economic Independence. (SA 3 --> 2)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Documenting Research. (SA 2 --> 1)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Official Sanction. (SA 1 --> 0)
...
Necessary Bureaucracy causes the top card of the Political deck to be drawn for voting: Interstellar Arms Dealers.
... The Mentak Coalition: ... The Yssaril Tribes: Play the primary ability of the (8) Bureaucracy Strategy Card.
Draw the top two cards of the Public Objective Deck, placing one back on the bottom of the deck and revealing the following: [GAME OVER] Imperium Rex: As soon as this card is revealed, the game ends immediately. The player with the most victory points wins the game.
Victory Points and Objectives
The Yssaril Tribes: 7 VP The Embers of Muaat: 6 VP The Naalu Collective: 4 VP The Nekro Virus: 3 VP The Mentak Coalition: 3 VP The Xxcha Kingdom: 1 VP
Public Objectives
[1 VP] I now spend 10 resources or 10 influence.: Yssaril, Naalu, Muaat, Xxcha, Mentak, Nekro
[1 VP] I have more than one Technology Advance in 3 different colors.: Yssaril, Muaat, Mentak
[1 VP] I won a Space Battle against at least 3 opposing ships in one system this turn.: Naalu, Nekro, Mentak
[1 VP] I am blockading an opponent's Space Dock.: Yssaril
[1 VP] I now spend 4 Trade Goods, 3 resources, and 3 influence.: Nekro, Muaat, Naalu
[1 VP] I control planets with a total influence greater than the player to my immediate right and greater than the player to my immediate left.: Naalu, Muaat
[2 VP] I control the Mecatol Rex system and at least 3 systems adjacent to it. I "control" a system if I have at least one (non-Fighter) ship there, and I control every planet in the system. Yssaril
[2 VP] I won two Space Battles this turn, each in different systems and against at least 3 opposing ships.
Public Objective Deck: 3 Stage II Objectives
Secret Objectives The Embers of Muaat: [2 VP] Usurper: I control Mecatol Rex; I have a Space Dock and at least 6 Ground Forces here. The Naalu Collective: 1 Secret Objective The Nekro Virus: 1 Secret Objective The Yssaril Tribes: [2 VP] Industrial: I control Mecatol Rex, and I have all 3 of my Space Docks and all 5 of my Dreadnoughts on the board. The Mentak Coalition: 1 Secret Objective The Xxcha Kingdom: 1 Secret Objective
With 7 Victory Points, Yssaril claims victory in Round 8!
You can cull the AC deck, and the Political Deck. There's lots of resources on BGG on how to make them work for different kinds of groups.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
It probably didn't hurt the Yssaril's chances that their neighbour on one side was me, a completely new and not too aggressive player who was using most of his energy flailing about trying to just figure the game out. But also, El Skid and discrider both played well, from what I could tell. For example, you both remembered to actually aim for objectives from the start, unlike me!
Anyway. Fun game, and I definitely want to try it again to try and see how well I can do if I know what I'm doing from the beginning.
It probably didn't hurt the Yssaril's chances that their neighbour on one side was me, a completely new and not too aggressive player who was using most of his energy flailing about trying to just figure the game out. But also, El Skid and discrider both played well, from what I could tell. For example, you both remembered to actually aim for objectives from the start, unlike me!
Anyway. Fun game, and I definitely want to try it again to try and see how well I can do if I know what I'm doing from the beginning.
Haha yeah, this is my second game of TI3, and the first game I totally didn't concentrate enough on victory conditions.
Also, I am really happy that discrider chose not to come visit until after I took out Mecantol Rex. I probably/maybe could have fended him off on the defensive, but no way would I have been able to meet my objectives.
Also also I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone for discarding my 2 first strikes. I was concentrating on firming up a backup plan in case the short path of "take imperium rex" was circumvented (I don't know what all the cards are). So yeah, put us all through an extra turn of stupid for that :-/
Re: ACs- they're powerful, but it's hard to rely on them for victory outside of Yssaril. You just can't hold enough of them, and making a big play where you depend on them is bound to get you sabotaged.
A big thank you to Mr. B for running this. It was literally a year of his time, where he was doing nothing but enabling the rest of us to have fun... And I guess taking up the slack when Xxcha decided to bow out. You're really great Mr. B, and seeing this through to the end with us was very appreciated!
Even though Action Cards are quite swingy (even after cutting and curating the deck), I think that they're an important component of the game experience. There's not really a good replacement for them, under consideration of what the game is. Twilight Imperium isn't the greatest game out there, it can be imbalanced and it's easy to get left behind, but it's also a game that's worth experiencing, if only just for the spectacle. I'm glad that I was able to host yet another game of this to completion, even if I did end up getting busy and tardy on steady updates in the last few months. Perhaps in the future, I shall start up hosting for another forum game. For now, I take a bit of rest and contemplation, to think about what I shall do next. Thanks again for playing, and suggestions and ideas are welcome for the next iteration.
MrBlarney on
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
Yeah, Action Cards is what keeps everyone guessing.
"I can totally attack that system because the Muaat fleet of death is out of range. Hmm...But what if he has an Action Card that will let him move an extra square? Or worse, remove the activation counter and attack again? Maybe I should use the action card that lets me look at his hand and steal an AC, just to be sure! But will that set off alarm bells for the Xxcha so that he'll turtle before I can attack?"
Without ACs there's not a lot of hidden information, so the game becomes much more about keeping track of everyone's tech and racial stuff. There's much less element of risk, because there's much less information you don't know.
I mean, games like Diplomacy still work with zero hidden information so it'd be doable, but I think ACs definitely add another layer to the strategy aspect of the game. And it's VERY difficult to win a game going full-on ACs, even with Yssaril. You're basically putting all your eggs into one basket, which is full of random stuff that could be game breaking, but could also be useless.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
I'd argue that Diplomacy's simultaneous movement is actually a form of hidden information.
I'd argue that Diplomacy's simultaneous movement is actually a form of hidden information.
I suppose so, though I'd say it's a different class of hidden information.
Diplomacy hidden information is "I know exactly what every piece on the board can do, I just don't know what it WILL do".
TI's hidden information means that unless you have a means of gathering intelligence or a player has used all their ACs, you never know exactly what any piece on the board can do for sure. Maybe all those fighters are puny and can move 2 spaces... or maybe they're twice as powerful as you thought and move three spaces for this turn only.
I think ACs add a lot of replayability and strategy to the game- You have to figure out how the Action Cards you've been dealt can help you towards your goals, and how they can be used to thwart other players' ambitions. The same player with the same board state might play entirely differently with a different set of action cards in their hand. And other players can clue into this difference in play and try to guess what's in that player's hand... or whether they're being greedy and hoping nobody calls them on not having certain cards to support their moves.
Yeah, Action Cards is what keeps everyone guessing.
"I can totally attack that system because the Muaat fleet of death is out of range. Hmm...But what if he has an Action Card that will let him move an extra square? Or worse, remove the activation counter and attack again? Maybe I should use the action card that lets me look at his hand and steal an AC, just to be sure! But will that set off alarm bells for the Xxcha so that he'll turtle before I can attack?"
Without ACs there's not a lot of hidden information, so the game becomes much more about keeping track of everyone's tech and racial stuff. There's much less element of risk, because there's much less information you don't know.
I mean, games like Diplomacy still work with zero hidden information so it'd be doable, but I think ACs definitely add another layer to the strategy aspect of the game. And it's VERY difficult to win a game going full-on ACs, even with Yssaril. You're basically putting all your eggs into one basket, which is full of random stuff that could be game breaking, but could also be useless.
You don't need the hidden AC information though, as it's virtually impossible for one player to be so far ahead that they couldn't be taken down by two other players.
And then the game would be far more about alliances and who's going to betray who first, which is far more exciting to me than "I don't know what my own pieces can do, because the other player might screw them over".
So I'm curious- was anyone else preparing to finish their secret objective? What was everyone's secret objectives?
The objectives that were not fulfilled are as follows: The Naalu Collective: [2 VP] Focused: I control at least 4 planets with the same technology specialty. The Nekro Virus: [2 VP] Conqueror: I control all the planets in another player’s Home System. The Mentak Coalition: [2 VP] Master of Ships: I control Mecatol Rex, I have a Space Dock here, and at least 8 (non-Fighter) ships in the Mecatol Rex system. The Xxcha Kingdom: [2 VP] Diversified: I control Mecatol Rex; I have a Space Dock here, and I have at least 2 Technology Advances in each of three different colors.
(I wonder what would happen if I replaced my AC deck with the entire game of Don Juan)
Do you really hate Action Cards so much that you would make up a game to put in its place? (Surely, you mean "San Juan" instead?) They don't provide enough swing in a two-versus-one confrontation, nor should they, but they do provide surprises in a one-versus-one matchup. In addition, it is a partial gamble whenever you attempt to draw extra action cards, since not all of them are applicable in all situations. Most of the time, the expected value of an Action Card is such that it feels like a good idea to draw (especially after deck trimming), but sometimes a card just ends up looking like a threat rather than being an actual one. The Action Card mechanic is fairly appropriate for a game like Twilight Imperium, though I certainly wouldn't want it in other games. I suppose if you wanted a variant with less swing and uncertainty, you could replace them with Trade Goods.
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
edited April 2015
Ouch. I'm so sorry, Naalu. With the map the way it was (and for what seems like 99% of the maps we could have generated), your VC was impossible (at least without controlling the majority of the galaxy anyway).
Nekro's seems easiest generically, though they were sandwiched between the two beefiest races for much of the game, so bad luck there. I should probably take the time to apologize to @kirindal for warmongering against him as soon as races were handed out. I was honestly scared of what the nekro could do with their racial sitting beside the Muaat, and besides trying to get the Muaat to leave me alone so I could build up *5* dreadnaughts somehow, I really just wanted to try to get you to back off in the early game on acquiring unlimited tech. I guess maybe it worked, given you didn't really use your racial ability at all until the game was basically over?
Actually, I didn't use my racial ability for a different reason. Like you said, I was wedged between the Naalu and the Muaat. The minute I start preying on anyone's ships for tech, they would crush me flat between them. Also I figured that most of you would avoid teching up to avoid letting me get free pickings the minute I got bold. So therefore, it was in my interest to present being a smaller fish not really worth the time to go up against.
I'll admit I overestimated the Muaat's & Naalu's bloodthirstiness since it was my hope and strategy to sneak behind them and scoop up any scraps from their warmongering pecking on battle-weakened races.
So I'm curious- was anyone else preparing to finish their secret objective? What was everyone's secret objectives?
The objectives that were not fulfilled are as follows: The Naalu Collective: [2 VP] Focused: I control at least 4 planets with the same technology specialty. The Nekro Virus: [2 VP] Conqueror: I control all the planets in another player’s Home System. The Mentak Coalition: [2 VP] Master of Ships: I control Mecatol Rex, I have a Space Dock here, and at least 8 (non-Fighter) ships in the Mecatol Rex system. The Xxcha Kingdom: [2 VP] Diversified: I control Mecatol Rex; I have a Space Dock here, and I have at least 2 Technology Advances in each of three different colors.
(I wonder what would happen if I replaced my AC deck with the entire game of Don Juan)
Do you really hate Action Cards so much that you would make up a game to put in its place? (Surely, you mean "San Juan" instead?) They don't provide enough swing in a two-versus-one confrontation, nor should they, but they do provide surprises in a one-versus-one matchup. In addition, it is a partial gamble whenever you attempt to draw extra action cards, since not all of them are applicable in all situations. Most of the time, the expected value of an Action Card is such that it feels like a good idea to draw (especially after deck trimming), but sometimes a card just ends up looking like a threat rather than being an actual one. The Action Card mechanic is fairly appropriate for a game like Twilight Imperium, though I certainly wouldn't want it in other games. I suppose if you wanted a variant with less swing and uncertainty, you could replace them with Trade Goods.
Ah yes, I did mean San Juan.
And I don't mind the expected value of an Action Card as it is, but I'd prefer it to have less, or even no, attack-another-player cards compared to boost-my-own-ability cards. Or at least the former should be similar in number to the amount of Sabotages in the deck.
(I wonder what would happen if I replaced my AC deck with the entire game of Don Juan)
Do you really hate Action Cards so much that you would make up a game to put in its place? (Surely, you mean "San Juan" instead?) They don't provide enough swing in a two-versus-one confrontation, nor should they, but they do provide surprises in a one-versus-one matchup. In addition, it is a partial gamble whenever you attempt to draw extra action cards, since not all of them are applicable in all situations. Most of the time, the expected value of an Action Card is such that it feels like a good idea to draw (especially after deck trimming), but sometimes a card just ends up looking like a threat rather than being an actual one. The Action Card mechanic is fairly appropriate for a game like Twilight Imperium, though I certainly wouldn't want it in other games. I suppose if you wanted a variant with less swing and uncertainty, you could replace them with Trade Goods.
Ah yes, I did mean San Juan.
And I don't mind the expected value of an Action Card as it is, but I'd prefer it to have less, or even no, attack-another-player cards compared to boost-my-own-ability cards. Or at least the former should be similar in number to the amount of Sabotages in the deck.
Ah, I can see your perspective. In the trimmed deck, about one third of the cards were related to battle effects, while there were seven cards related to activation effects, and about ten cards that are used as Actions which target an opponent or their holdings. A good amount of the battle effect cards are more of the "boost self" type, though. On the other hand, increasing the Sabotage count weakens the overall desirability of Action Cards. The original game had 5 Sabotage cards of 103 overall - a change from 4.9% Sabotages to 4.2% under the trimmed deck is somewhat small.
I wonder if there is any interest in polling for cards that should be in trimmed Action Card and Political Card decks. I had five responses that were used to build the decks that I've been using recently but I wonder if it's worth gaining some additional opinions. If anybody out there is willing to take a survey for card choices, let me know. I'm also thinking I might start a new game as soon as next week, so opinions on game options are also welcome.
Perhaps in the future, I shall start up hosting for another forum game. For now, I take a bit of rest and contemplation, to think about what I shall do next. Thanks again for playing, and suggestions and ideas are welcome for the next iteration.
(I wonder what would happen if I replaced my AC deck with the entire game of Don Juan)
Do you really hate Action Cards so much that you would make up a game to put in its place? (Surely, you mean "San Juan" instead?) They don't provide enough swing in a two-versus-one confrontation, nor should they, but they do provide surprises in a one-versus-one matchup. In addition, it is a partial gamble whenever you attempt to draw extra action cards, since not all of them are applicable in all situations. Most of the time, the expected value of an Action Card is such that it feels like a good idea to draw (especially after deck trimming), but sometimes a card just ends up looking like a threat rather than being an actual one. The Action Card mechanic is fairly appropriate for a game like Twilight Imperium, though I certainly wouldn't want it in other games. I suppose if you wanted a variant with less swing and uncertainty, you could replace them with Trade Goods.
Ah yes, I did mean San Juan.
And I don't mind the expected value of an Action Card as it is, but I'd prefer it to have less, or even no, attack-another-player cards compared to boost-my-own-ability cards. Or at least the former should be similar in number to the amount of Sabotages in the deck.
I'm also thinking I might start a new game as soon as next week, so opinions on game options are also welcome.
MrB is a machine.
Also the Expected Value discussion is an interesting one.
The reason why I'd prefer less attack than boost are twofold: First it prevents the 'leading' player from being penalised harshly, and second because there's nothing in TI that really allows a player to prevent or counter AC aggression and so you just get to sit there and watch your stuff die. This is probably the same reason just voiced from two angles.
But EV provides a third reason: It is always better to destroy your opponents resources than gain the same amount yourself (in a 1v1 contest).
For instance, 4 fighters vs 4 fighters, it is better to destroy 2 fighters and have double the offensive power, than it is to deploy 2 more fighters and only have 50% more offensive power.
But you're still only looking at the change of effectively 1R in both these scenarios, so they seem like the same Expected Value.
The answer here is, aside any added value that the opportunity to play this card gives (playing during combat rather than having to pull 2 more fighters across the galaxy must be worth something in and of itself), the EV of an AC should be equivalent to the Resource that would be used to produce a similar effect when played on yourself, but it should be more than the cost in resources to an opponent for an attack AC. This increase in EV should be proportionate to the increase in effectiveness.
For the example above, to build 2 fighters would have an EV of 1R, but to destroy 2 fighters (in this case) would be EV of 1 x 2/1.5 = 1.3R.
Of course, that factor would change a lot dependent on the base population.. unless you're looking at cards which take percentages of the defender's forces.
Like that 50% chance GF destruction AC. Then it's the same 2/1.5.
You'd also need to consider whether activation of the system to build units factors into the cost of the units (it should, all things considered). But considering that activations are largely limited by Influence, not Resources, you'd be looking at any opportunity cost taken through perhaps Strategy Card choice.
...
I might have to analyse my AC deck.
And soothe my hate in the cold confines of calculus.
Edit: For the destruction of say 2 fighters from 2 fighters, the EV is not infinity or undefined. The EV should max out at the value of whatever the two fighters were protecting.
Which then begs the question of how much a VP is worth in resources.
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
I am in awe of you, MrB.
If you are still willing to have me as a player I'd be happy to sign up for your next game (either @ me or stick me in the signup pool if you'll have me. If you want new blood I'll happily sit on a reserve list )
Those interested in providing their opinions on which Action Cards and Political Cards are worth keeping or trimming in a deck trim scenario, feel free to click on the links in the sentence. Those who require a cheat sheet of cards and their effects may also send a private message to me.
Went looking for resources on how to trim the AC deck so that it felt more fun.
Instead found this thread when searching "Twilight Imperium ACs suck" in Google:
So apparently only I complain about ACs this much.
Yeah my SO was functionally impossible in this board layout. I had laid plans a couple times to pursue it but it was always a pipe dream. My plan then became around controlling my space and the Xxcha space and hoping to win by overwhelming power. I needed to keep people out of MR though and Muaat's early acquisition and then the GF flood nullified that. At that point I was trying to place well rather than win, which is a great way to keep a long game fun even if you think you won't win.
I am interested in another game on these forums, I like the community a lot, but I'll have to sit game 9 out. I have unexpected life stuff. See you at Game 10...?
Posts
The Naalu Collective: Activate the Mecatol Rex system. (CP 4 --> 3)
Move in 2 Cruisers, 3 Carriers, 9 Fighters, and 3 Mechanized Units from the Vega system and 1 Destroyer from the Jidval Expanse.
The trade agreement between Naalu and Yssaril is broken.
During the space battle, Naalu loses 1 Destroyer and 4 Fighters, while Yssaril loses 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 Carriers, and 1 Fighter; combat resolves in favor of Naalu.
Land 3 Mechanized Units on Mecatol Rex.
During invasion combat, Naalu damages 2 Mechanized Units while Yssaril loses 1 Shock Troop and 3 Ground Forces; combat resolves in favor of Naalu.
1 Yssaril Space Dock is destroyed.
The Embers of Muaat: Activate the Yssaril Home System. (CP 3 --> 2)
Play Action Card "Flank Speed", increasing the speed of all fleets into the system by 1. (AC 6 --> 5)
Move in 2 War Suns, 7 Fighters, and 4 Ground Forces from Lisis-Velnor, loading 1 Ground Force from Bellatrix, and 1 Destroyer from Tsion-Bellatrix.
Prior to battle, Muaat plays Action Card "Flanking Tactic", preventing Yssaril retreat from the system. (AC 5 --> 4)
Yssaril plays Action Card "Friendly Fire", destroying 3 Muaat Fighters. (AC 6 --> 5)
During the space battle, Muaat suffers no losses, while Yssaril loses 2 Dreadnoughts and 1 Fighter; combat resolves in favor of Muaat.
Bombard Retillion and Shalloq each with 1 War Sun and land 5 Ground Forces on Shalloq.
Bombardment destroys 1 Shock Troop and 2 Ground Forces on Retillion and 2 Ground Forces on Shalloq; Muaat takes control of Shalloq.
The Nekro Virus: Activate the Fleshly Bankruptcy system. (CP 3 --> 2)
Move in 1 Cruiser and 1 Destroyer from Dal Bootha-Xxehan.
During the space battle, Nekro suffers no losses, while Yssaril loses 1 Destroyer; combat resolves in favor of Nekro.
Nekro uses their racial ability to gain Enviro Compensator.
The Xxcha Kingdom: Play the primary ability of the (3) Assembly Strategy Card.
Yssaril plays Action Card "Council Disbanded", but is cancelled by Xxcha's play of Action Card "Sabotage". (Yssaril AC 5 --> 4, Xxcha AC 6 --> 5)
Xxcha draws two Action Cards and 1 Political Card. (AC 5 --> 7, PC 0 --> 1)
Xxcha claims the Speaker Token and elects Naalu to play a Political Card.
Since Naalu has no Political Cards, the top card of the Political Card deck is drawn: Vorhal Peace Prize.
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Technology Tariffs. (SA 4 --> 3)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Forced Economic Independence. (SA 3 --> 2)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Documenting Research. (SA 2 --> 1)
Xxcha elects to exercise their racial ability, spending a command counter from Strategy Allocation to discard the current agenda and draw a new one from the top of the deck: Official Sanction. (SA 1 --> 0)
...
Necessary Bureaucracy causes the top card of the Political deck to be drawn for voting: Interstellar Arms Dealers.
...
The Mentak Coalition: ...
The Yssaril Tribes: Play the primary ability of the (8) Bureaucracy Strategy Card.
Draw the top two cards of the Public Objective Deck, placing one back on the bottom of the deck and revealing the following: [GAME OVER] Imperium Rex: As soon as this card is revealed, the game ends immediately. The player with the most victory points wins the game.
Victory Points and Objectives
The Embers of Muaat: 6 VP
The Naalu Collective: 4 VP
The Nekro Virus: 3 VP
The Mentak Coalition: 3 VP
The Xxcha Kingdom: 1 VP
Public Objectives
[1 VP] I now spend 10 resources or 10 influence.: Yssaril, Naalu, Muaat, Xxcha, Mentak, Nekro
[1 VP] I have more than one Technology Advance in 3 different colors.: Yssaril, Muaat, Mentak
[1 VP] I won a Space Battle against at least 3 opposing ships in one system this turn.: Naalu, Nekro, Mentak
[1 VP] I am blockading an opponent's Space Dock.: Yssaril
[1 VP] I now spend 4 Trade Goods, 3 resources, and 3 influence.: Nekro, Muaat, Naalu
[1 VP] I control planets with a total influence greater than the player to my immediate right and greater than the player to my immediate left.: Naalu, Muaat
[2 VP] I control the Mecatol Rex system and at least 3 systems adjacent to it. I "control" a system if I have at least one (non-Fighter) ship there, and I control every planet in the system. Yssaril
[2 VP] I won two Space Battles this turn, each in different systems and against at least 3 opposing ships.
Public Objective Deck: 3 Stage II Objectives
Secret Objectives
The Embers of Muaat: [2 VP] Usurper: I control Mecatol Rex; I have a Space Dock and at least 6 Ground Forces here.
The Naalu Collective: 1 Secret Objective
The Nekro Virus: 1 Secret Objective
The Yssaril Tribes: [2 VP] Industrial: I control Mecatol Rex, and I have all 3 of my Space Docks and all 5 of my Dreadnoughts on the board.
The Mentak Coalition: 1 Secret Objective
The Xxcha Kingdom: 1 Secret Objective
With 7 Victory Points, Yssaril claims victory in Round 8!
Might've had more fun if I hadn't painted a target on my face turn 3 by putting myself into the lead.
Then again I doubt I'll play this again, even though I bought the base game.
That's how badly I, and the people I play with, hate the ACs.
Anyway. Fun game, and I definitely want to try it again to try and see how well I can do if I know what I'm doing from the beginning.
Haha yeah, this is my second game of TI3, and the first game I totally didn't concentrate enough on victory conditions.
Also, I am really happy that discrider chose not to come visit until after I took out Mecantol Rex. I probably/maybe could have fended him off on the defensive, but no way would I have been able to meet my objectives.
Also also I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone for discarding my 2 first strikes. I was concentrating on firming up a backup plan in case the short path of "take imperium rex" was circumvented (I don't know what all the cards are). So yeah, put us all through an extra turn of stupid for that :-/
Re: ACs- they're powerful, but it's hard to rely on them for victory outside of Yssaril. You just can't hold enough of them, and making a big play where you depend on them is bound to get you sabotaged.
A big thank you to Mr. B for running this. It was literally a year of his time, where he was doing nothing but enabling the rest of us to have fun... And I guess taking up the slack when Xxcha decided to bow out. You're really great Mr. B, and seeing this through to the end with us was very appreciated!
"I can totally attack that system because the Muaat fleet of death is out of range. Hmm...But what if he has an Action Card that will let him move an extra square? Or worse, remove the activation counter and attack again? Maybe I should use the action card that lets me look at his hand and steal an AC, just to be sure! But will that set off alarm bells for the Xxcha so that he'll turtle before I can attack?"
Without ACs there's not a lot of hidden information, so the game becomes much more about keeping track of everyone's tech and racial stuff. There's much less element of risk, because there's much less information you don't know.
I mean, games like Diplomacy still work with zero hidden information so it'd be doable, but I think ACs definitely add another layer to the strategy aspect of the game. And it's VERY difficult to win a game going full-on ACs, even with Yssaril. You're basically putting all your eggs into one basket, which is full of random stuff that could be game breaking, but could also be useless.
I suppose so, though I'd say it's a different class of hidden information.
Diplomacy hidden information is "I know exactly what every piece on the board can do, I just don't know what it WILL do".
TI's hidden information means that unless you have a means of gathering intelligence or a player has used all their ACs, you never know exactly what any piece on the board can do for sure. Maybe all those fighters are puny and can move 2 spaces... or maybe they're twice as powerful as you thought and move three spaces for this turn only.
I think ACs add a lot of replayability and strategy to the game- You have to figure out how the Action Cards you've been dealt can help you towards your goals, and how they can be used to thwart other players' ambitions. The same player with the same board state might play entirely differently with a different set of action cards in their hand. And other players can clue into this difference in play and try to guess what's in that player's hand... or whether they're being greedy and hoping nobody calls them on not having certain cards to support their moves.
You don't need the hidden AC information though, as it's virtually impossible for one player to be so far ahead that they couldn't be taken down by two other players.
And then the game would be far more about alliances and who's going to betray who first, which is far more exciting to me than "I don't know what my own pieces can do, because the other player might screw them over".
The Naalu Collective: [2 VP] Focused: I control at least 4 planets with the same technology specialty.
The Nekro Virus: [2 VP] Conqueror: I control all the planets in another player’s Home System.
The Mentak Coalition: [2 VP] Master of Ships: I control Mecatol Rex, I have a Space Dock here, and at least 8 (non-Fighter) ships in the Mecatol Rex system.
The Xxcha Kingdom: [2 VP] Diversified: I control Mecatol Rex; I have a Space Dock here, and I have at least 2 Technology Advances in each of three different colors.
Do you really hate Action Cards so much that you would make up a game to put in its place? (Surely, you mean "San Juan" instead?) They don't provide enough swing in a two-versus-one confrontation, nor should they, but they do provide surprises in a one-versus-one matchup. In addition, it is a partial gamble whenever you attempt to draw extra action cards, since not all of them are applicable in all situations. Most of the time, the expected value of an Action Card is such that it feels like a good idea to draw (especially after deck trimming), but sometimes a card just ends up looking like a threat rather than being an actual one. The Action Card mechanic is fairly appropriate for a game like Twilight Imperium, though I certainly wouldn't want it in other games. I suppose if you wanted a variant with less swing and uncertainty, you could replace them with Trade Goods.
Nekro's seems easiest generically, though they were sandwiched between the two beefiest races for much of the game, so bad luck there. I should probably take the time to apologize to @kirindal for warmongering against him as soon as races were handed out. I was honestly scared of what the nekro could do with their racial sitting beside the Muaat, and besides trying to get the Muaat to leave me alone so I could build up *5* dreadnaughts somehow, I really just wanted to try to get you to back off in the early game on acquiring unlimited tech. I guess maybe it worked, given you didn't really use your racial ability at all until the game was basically over?
Regardless, I felt bad as soon as I did it
I'll admit I overestimated the Muaat's & Naalu's bloodthirstiness since it was my hope and strategy to sneak behind them and scoop up any scraps from their warmongering pecking on battle-weakened races.
Ah yes, I did mean San Juan.
And I don't mind the expected value of an Action Card as it is, but I'd prefer it to have less, or even no, attack-another-player cards compared to boost-my-own-ability cards. Or at least the former should be similar in number to the amount of Sabotages in the deck.
I wonder if there is any interest in polling for cards that should be in trimmed Action Card and Political Card decks. I had five responses that were used to build the decks that I've been using recently but I wonder if it's worth gaining some additional opinions. If anybody out there is willing to take a survey for card choices, let me know. I'm also thinking I might start a new game as soon as next week, so opinions on game options are also welcome.
MrB is a machine.
Also the Expected Value discussion is an interesting one.
The reason why I'd prefer less attack than boost are twofold: First it prevents the 'leading' player from being penalised harshly, and second because there's nothing in TI that really allows a player to prevent or counter AC aggression and so you just get to sit there and watch your stuff die. This is probably the same reason just voiced from two angles.
But EV provides a third reason: It is always better to destroy your opponents resources than gain the same amount yourself (in a 1v1 contest).
For instance, 4 fighters vs 4 fighters, it is better to destroy 2 fighters and have double the offensive power, than it is to deploy 2 more fighters and only have 50% more offensive power.
But you're still only looking at the change of effectively 1R in both these scenarios, so they seem like the same Expected Value.
The answer here is, aside any added value that the opportunity to play this card gives (playing during combat rather than having to pull 2 more fighters across the galaxy must be worth something in and of itself), the EV of an AC should be equivalent to the Resource that would be used to produce a similar effect when played on yourself, but it should be more than the cost in resources to an opponent for an attack AC. This increase in EV should be proportionate to the increase in effectiveness.
For the example above, to build 2 fighters would have an EV of 1R, but to destroy 2 fighters (in this case) would be EV of 1 x 2/1.5 = 1.3R.
Of course, that factor would change a lot dependent on the base population.. unless you're looking at cards which take percentages of the defender's forces.
Like that 50% chance GF destruction AC. Then it's the same 2/1.5.
You'd also need to consider whether activation of the system to build units factors into the cost of the units (it should, all things considered). But considering that activations are largely limited by Influence, not Resources, you'd be looking at any opportunity cost taken through perhaps Strategy Card choice.
...
I might have to analyse my AC deck.
And soothe my hate in the cold confines of calculus.
Edit: For the destruction of say 2 fighters from 2 fighters, the EV is not infinity or undefined. The EV should max out at the value of whatever the two fighters were protecting.
Which then begs the question of how much a VP is worth in resources.
If you are still willing to have me as a player I'd be happy to sign up for your next game (either @ me or stick me in the signup pool if you'll have me. If you want new blood I'll happily sit on a reserve list
Also I could use a good hard look at my deck before continuing to criticise anyone else's)
Went looking for resources on how to trim the AC deck so that it felt more fun.
Instead found this thread when searching "Twilight Imperium ACs suck" in Google:
So apparently only I complain about ACs this much.
I am interested in another game on these forums, I like the community a lot, but I'll have to sit game 9 out. I have unexpected life stuff. See you at Game 10...?
Edit: Oh I see. You mean game 11. Sorry.
Thanks for listening random thread gods.