Whats the ultimate cheese D&D3.5

MadJack · October 2006

whats your ultimate cheese for character concepts? somthing to make the gm's eyes bleed.

INeedNoSalt · October 2006

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Litejedi · October 2006

Wizards, druids, and divine metamagic.

Things that have to do with the spiked chain.

naporeon · October 2006

Litejedi wrote:

Wizards, druids, and divine metamagic.

Things that have to do with the spiked chain.

Didn't they crush that with the nerf stick in 3.5?

PiptheFair · October 2006

spike chain is still amazingly cheese

10ft reach with a ranged trip attempt? YESPLZ

Der Waffle Mous · October 2006

Ebberon Shifters + Warshaper.

Not exactly cheesy, but very minmaxy.

PiptheFair · October 2006

WHY wrote:

Ebberon Shifters + Warshaper.

Not exactly cheesy, but very minmaxy.

I think you meant to say Artificer+anything.

Ardent · October 2006

LN Cleric of Hoar with Travel and Retribution domains. Good-bye game balance. If you're confused, think a Wizard that wears full plate and can cast healing spells. It's pretty awful.

MechMantis · October 2006

INeedNoSalt wrote:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

EDIT: I am going to spring this on some unknowing DM one day.

Litejedi · October 2006

MechMantis wrote:

INeedNoSalt wrote:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

EDIT: I am going to spring this on some unknowing DM one day.

I'm not sure that it's a playable character. You know, since there's no point in playing your character if you do this.

Legoman05 · October 2006

Arcane Thesis + Energy Substitution + Energy Admixture + Twinned Spell + Scorching Ray.

44d6 of, say sonic damage, with a 6th level spell slot.

That's level 11.

DevoutlyApathetic · October 2006

Legoman05 wrote:

Arcane Thesis + Energy Substitution + Energy Admixture + Twinned Spell + Scorching Ray.

44d6 of, say sonic damage, with a 6th level spell slot.

That's level 11.

Er...no.

No sonic, read the feat.

0+4+4+2-3=7 So 13th level. If we let Energy Sub work with it which while RAW is clearly not intended.

Really, Thesis+Fiery+Searing+empower is a better starting place with (effectively) 12d6+12 at 6th 4 times a day with less concern about resistances.

Really everything in this thread past that first link is a waste. I will always have a special place in my heart for the Nasty Gentleman though. He's almost playable and has such nice flavor.

I hurl 72 produce flames at you!

Skitoria · October 2006

PipTheFair wrote:

spike chain is still amazingly cheese

10ft reach with a ranged trip attempt? YESPLZ

Yes! With a couple feats you can tottaly own a whole battlefield. I love the chain fighter.

Also any rogue with the staggering strike feat.

And my favorite. Thri-kreen Monk

DeepQantas · October 2006

PipTheFair wrote:

spike chain is still amazingly cheese

10ft reach with a ranged trip attempt? YESPLZ

I'm still of the opinion that the real problem is with Exotic Weapon Master prestige class rather than the chain itself.

Ranseur (or was it Guisarme) has the 10ft trip. Spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency to gain the reach to 5ft away and possibility to combo with Weapon Finesse and Power Attack (which as a Dex build doesn't do as much damage as a Str one) isn't that bad.

Exotic Weapon Master gives an extra attack at -2 penalty, iirc. Goum would prolly remember better. I remember going thru this back in some thread.

Anthrax! Please. · October 2006

DeepQantas wrote:

PipTheFair wrote:

spike chain is still amazingly cheese

10ft reach with a ranged trip attempt? YESPLZ

I'm still of the opinion that the real problem is with Exotic Weapon Master prestige class rather than the chain itself.

Ranseur (or was it Guisarme) has the 10ft trip. Spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency to gain the reach to 5ft away and possibility to combo with Weapon Finesse and Power Attack (which as a Dex build doesn't do as much damage as a Str one) isn't that bad.

Exotic Weapon Master gives an extra attack at -2 penalty, iirc. Goum would prolly remember better. I remember going thru this back in some thread.

Yes. Extra attack at -2. Flurry of strikes. The real benefit of spiked chain is that it is reach or not at will. For a Guisarme or Ranseur you'd need short haft (feat, phb2) to switch between point blank and 5 ft reach, and even then it's only once a turn as a swift action.

PiptheFair · October 2006

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

naporeon · October 2006

PipTheFair wrote:

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

Moving into a threatened square does nothing. It's moving out that causes the problem. Moving into a threatened square in one round, and taking a 5' step in the next, before using, say, a full-attack action, would not provoke an AoO/free trip attempt.

PiptheFair · October 2006

naporeon wrote:

PipTheFair wrote:

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

Moving into a threatened square does nothing. It's moving out that causes the problem. Moving into a threatened square in one round, and taking a 5' step in the next, before using, say, a full-attack action, would not provoke an AoO/free trip attempt.

Except you would have to face a trip attempt before you would be able to attack, and then the fact that the chain wielder can just 5ft step back after his turn.

naporeon · October 2006

jdarksun wrote:

naporeon wrote:

PipTheFair wrote:

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

Moving into a threatened square does nothing. It's moving out that causes the problem. Moving into a threatened square in one round, and taking a 5' step in the next, before using, say, a full-attack action, would not provoke an AoO/free trip attempt.

Additionally, you can take a 5' step while going Total Defense. +4 AC is pretty good at most levels where you're worried about being tripped.

Don't charge a spiked chain wielder, and you'll be fine. Pepper it with arrows or spells, use the terrain against it, sunder the spiked chain... there are a ton of options.

Have your caster enlarge you? :twisted:

PiptheFair · October 2006

You guys seem to be missing the part where a great deal of scrutiny and care need to be taken to take on a single specific weapon, whereas just about every other weapon in the game is completely straightfoward. That's why a spiked-chain is cheese.

naporeon · October 2006

PipTheFair wrote:

naporeon wrote:

PipTheFair wrote:

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

Moving into a threatened square does nothing. It's moving out that causes the problem. Moving into a threatened square in one round, and taking a 5' step in the next, before using, say, a full-attack action, would not provoke an AoO/free trip attempt.

Except you would have to face a trip attempt before you would be able to attack, and then the fact that the chain wielder can just 5ft step back after his turn.

Assuming of course that this fella doesn't like to attack a whole lot, or is ignoring everyone else in your party.

I was merely pointing out that you were incorrect, and that you can approach a Spiked Chain wielder in at least a couple different ways. Also, simply having to formulate a strategy different than the stock "run up and beat on him...dur dur dur" does not make an encounter or build unbalanced.

Legoman05 · October 2006

DevoutlyApathetic wrote:

Legoman05 wrote:

Arcane Thesis + Energy Substitution + Energy Admixture + Twinned Spell + Scorching Ray.

44d6 of, say sonic damage, with a 6th level spell slot.

That's level 11.

Er...no.

No sonic, read the feat.

0+4+4+2-3=7 So 13th level. If we let Energy Sub work with it which while RAW is clearly not intended.

Really, Thesis+Fiery+Searing+empower is a better starting place with (effectively) 12d6+12 at 6th 4 times a day with less concern about resistances.

Really everything in this thread past that first link is a waste. I will always have a special place in my heart for the Nasty Gentleman though. He's almost playable and has such nice flavor.

I hurl 72 produce flames at you!

Alright, I'm off by one spell level. Big deal. The fact is, you take two different energy sub feats, maybe Ice and Acid, and you can make a spell that hits the vulnerability of whatever you're fighting. You don't even need a round of prep time Vs. the BBEG, and if Assay Resistance is allowed, GG, you just one-shotted him.

DevoutlyApathetic · October 2006

Legoman05 wrote:

Alright, I'm off by one spell level. Big deal.

Well it's only 10% of the total play enviroment. Definitely no big deal.

The fact is, you take two different energy sub feats, maybe Ice and Acid, and you can make a spell that hits the vulnerability of whatever you're fighting.

..and another Energy Admixture feat? You're starting to run low on feats.

You don't even need a round of prep time Vs. the BBEG, and if Assay Resistance is allowed, GG, you just one-shotted him.

44d6 of whatever damage = 154 average damage to a CR 13? You're highest level slot plus a 4th level spell to take a Glabrezu (an even CR creature) to 30 hit points?

This isn't close to Ultimate Cheese. It's far closer to "Dangerous Overspecialization" than anything else.

DeepQantas · October 2006

PipTheFair wrote:

naporeon wrote:

PipTheFair wrote:

The reason why it's nuts is because you can make a trip attempt whenever something comes within your threat range, i.e. 10ft. Whenever they attempt to get up, you get another AOO. If they manage to get up they have used their turn so all you need to do is trip/attack and 5ft step back and they again have to move through your threat range.

Moving into a threatened square does nothing. It's moving out that causes the problem. Moving into a threatened square in one round, and taking a 5' step in the next, before using, say, a full-attack action, would not provoke an AoO/free trip attempt.

Except you would have to face a trip attempt before you would be able to attack, and then the fact that the chain wielder can just 5ft step back after his turn.

That stuff works with Guisarme just the same.

jdarksun wrote:

So, let's look at a Spiked Chain. It has the following bonuses: reach, reach in melee, trip/disarm. It's a 2H weapon, so going from Martial to Exotic it gets a bonus off the bat (let's say reach). It drops a damage die (from 2d6 to 2d4) and picks up reach in melee. Finally, it drops its threat range to pick up trip/disarm bonuses.

That's two damage dice. A normal one step down with one die (1d8 -> 1d6) takes away 1 point of damage average, here with two dice it's 2 points on average.

+ Reach
+ Reach into 5ft
+ Trip
+ Disarm

- Exotic
- Damage
- Damage
- Threat range

Seems to balance out. Of course there's still the Weapon Finesse to add into the mix so that'd make it something like one step better than it should be. Not really a catastrophe in my opinion.

Another comparison would be Guisarme or Ranseur.

Guisarme is 2d4, x3, Reach, Trip, so the differences would be...

+ Disarm
+ Reach into 5ft
+ Weapon Finesse

- Exotic
- Threat range

I guess it comes down to how useful you think Trip, Disarm and Finesse are. Glaive to Guisarme/Ranseur transition (1d10 -> 2d4) implies Trip and Disarm are worth about 0.5 damage. Longsword to Rapier (1d8 -> 1d6, but increased threat) implies the Weapon Finesse isn't a full step either.

Also, if you go for a Dex character rather than Str then your trip attempts suffer. Those options don't overlap all that smoothly.

dhraad · October 2006

What is the ultimate cheese?

Warforged Warlock (with spiked chain). And since they dont need to sleep or rest, they can wear anything down by just standing at - let's say- a mage's tower and just blasting the bejezus out of it while the mages try very poorly to rest so they can get their spells back.

Warforged - excuse me, Brokeforged - really need a level adjustment. For all their benefits, they really dont have that many penalties besides recovering hit points.

Joeslop · October 2006

dhraad wrote:

What is the ultimate cheese?

Warforged Warlock (with spiked chain). And since they dont need to sleep or rest, they can wear anything down by just standing at - let's say- a mage's tower and just blasting the bejezus out of it while the mages try very poorly to rest so they can get their spells back.

Warforged - excuse me, Brokeforged - really need a level adjustment. For all their benefits, they really dont have that many penalties besides recovering hit points.

A Warforged still has to rest for 8 hours to cast spells. Sure, Warlocks don't have to rest to use their Invocations, but I really doubt a single Warlock could take out a whole Mage's tower by himself.

jdarksun wrote:

use the terrain against it

Der Waffle Mous · October 2006

dhraad wrote:

Warforged - excuse me, Brokeforged - really need a level adjustment. For all their benefits, they really dont have that many penalties besides recovering hit points.

other than technically having no feats on character creation, not being able to change armor or wear robes ever, being constantly discriminated against, needing a specialist to heal them?

DeepQantas · October 2006

Joeslop wrote:

Oh. Movement counts as a single opportunity no matter how many threatened squares your opponent leaves. Moving out of a threatened square and then doing something distracting in another threatened square would count as two opportunities.

PHB 3.5 pg. 137, last paragraph.

I woulda mailed the Giant but I figured he was bombarded by angry emails anyways

The Spring attack does give you an advantage in the situation depicted, tho. You get two attacks per round, he gets one. And you don't need to be large size either. As long as you move at least 10 feet to prevent 5-ft-step he'll provoke an AoO.

Then again, that works with any reach weapon. Not just the Chain.

Also, Ready Action is a possibility against weapons with 10 foot reach since it allows for a 5ft step if you didn't move on your turn. That of course depends quite a bit on what the battlefield is like.

PiptheFair · October 2006

WHY wrote:

dhraad wrote:

Warforged - excuse me, Brokeforged - really need a level adjustment. For all their benefits, they really dont have that many penalties besides recovering hit points.

other than technically having no feats on character creation, not being able to change armor or wear robes ever, being constantly discriminated against, needing a specialist to heal them?

hey

look

we're not getting into facts or anything here

dhraad · October 2006

Warforged dont really need a specialist, a mage can cast Repair Spells on them, and they get half from the healing subschool. Also they can take feats to make up for armor, and components can replace a fair number of magic items that can be worn. And you can take Adamantine Body at 1st level. The DR adds up, and I know heal spells dont do crap anymore, but just like fleshy characters, only one type of spell -repair- can heal you. I'm pretty sure my mage can't heal by casting repair on himself.

As for starting feats, they dont friggin need them! They are never fatigued, dont need sleep, immune to a bunch of crap and energy drain!

Take for example two balanced armies, one warforged, one not-warforged. Same intelligence, same number of casters, etc.

The Warforged WILL WIN.

The Warforged army does not sleep, eat, or breathe. They dont starve. They can keep the living on the point of exhaustion, making them less effective.

And still, warforged have no level adjustment.
I think its wrong.

naporeon · October 2006

dhraad wrote:

I'm pretty sure my mage can't heal by casting repair on himself.

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that your party doesn't have a guy who can spontaneously drop spells to cast Repair.

Unless he's got Spell Mastery + Signature Spell.

[spoiler:4c0aff9c93]That would make him a specialist.[/spoiler:4c0aff9c93]

naporeon · October 2006

jdarksun wrote:

Acid Test:
Warforged Fighter 1 vs. Human Fighter 1

Is there a clear reason to always go with Warforged in this circumstance? Trading a feat (extremely limited supply) for armor may be useful in the first few levels, but that evens out very quickly.

Edit:
Acid Test 2:
Warforged Fighter 4 vs. Human Fighter 4

How about now?

Oh oh oh! I know this one!

Uhmmmm...you want to get destroyed?

laughingfuzzball · October 2006

DeepQantas wrote:

Joeslop wrote:

Oh. Movement counts as a single opportunity no matter how many threatened squares your opponent leaves. Moving out of a threatened square and then doing something distracting in another threatened square would count as two opportunities.

PHB 3.5 pg. 137, last paragraph.

I woulda mailed the Giant but I figured he was bombarded by angry emails anyways

The Spring attack does give you an advantage in the situation depicted, tho. You get two attacks per round, he gets one. And you don't need to be large size either. As long as you move at least 10 feet to prevent 5-ft-step he'll provoke an AoO.

Then again, that works with any reach weapon. Not just the Chain.

Also, Ready Action is a possibility against weapons with 10 foot reach since it allows for a 5ft step if you didn't move on your turn. That of course depends quite a bit on what the battlefield is like.

He got a lot of mail about that, and his response was basically "fuck you guys".

Joeslop · October 2006

dhraad wrote:

Warforged dont really need a specialist, a mage can cast Repair Spells on them, and they get half from the healing subschool.

That requires talking the mage into taking Repair Spells instead of what he usually takes. Most non-rping mages would hate to part with a damage spell, and if it's an RPing mage, then there's not really a problem.

dhraad wrote:

Also they can take feats to make up for armor, and components can replace a fair number of magic items that can be worn. And you can take Adamantine Body at 1st level. The DR adds up, and I know heal spells dont do crap anymore, but just like fleshy characters, only one type of spell -repair- can heal you. I'm pretty sure my mage can't heal by casting repair on himself.

So you suggest taking Adamantine armor for your Warforged Warlock, yes? The one that gives 35% arcane spell failure (which DOES count for Warlock abilities), a max of +1 Dex (which most casters will have instead of armor) and a whole bunch of skill check penalties? Have fun with that.

dhraad wrote:

As for starting feats, they dont friggin need them! They are never fatigued, dont need sleep, immune to a bunch of crap and energy drain!

Unless they're any sort of spellcaster besides a Warlock. They still need to take 8 hours of rest (IE, not doing anything strenuous). They take damage from spells like heat metal, they get repelled by repel wood.

dhraad wrote:

Take for example two balanced armies, one warforged, one not-warforged. Same intelligence, same number of casters, etc.

The Warforged WILL WIN.

The Warforged army does not sleep, eat, or breathe. They dont starve. They can keep the living on the point of exhaustion, making them less effective.

That was the entire purpose of their creation, you know, that whole gigant ic war thing that was going on?

dhraad wrote:

And still, warforged have no level adjustment.
I think its wrong.

I think you're just bitching to bitch. Stop whining about it.

INeedNoSalt · October 2006

I think you're overlooking the part, dhraad, where a single warforged is not an army. The fact that an army of warforged is preferable to an army of humans is irrelevant. To an adventuring party, all 'not needing sleep' means is that you never have to worry about who's taking watch.

RiemannLives · October 2006

Nearly all sources of cheese in 3.5, ultimate or otherwise, stem from taking something specific to a given setting (Forgotten Realms I am looking in your direction) and using it in or combining it with things from a different setting.

DevoutlyApathetic · October 2006

RiemannLives wrote:

Nearly all sources of cheese in 3.5, ultimate or otherwise, stem from taking something specific to a given setting (Forgotten Realms I am looking in your direction) and using it in or combining it with things from a different setting.

No. Absolutely not.

Divine Metamagic is setting unspecific and is horribly broken.

Ur-Priest? Same. Granted some of that is it rapes the CR system.

Planar Shepard is especially broken because of the the planar geography that is specific to Eberron which the class is also.

You're statement is wrong. It sounds pretty and may have made more sense in 2nd edition but it is just completely wrong in 3.5 context.

PotatoNinja · October 2006

Its pretty hard to cheese without using poorly written splatbooks with badly designed prestige classes and feats. Huzzah for Rule 0.

Spiked Chains are overrated. They're neat, but your standard use-a-bunch-of-feats-to-trip-everyone warrior will lose to your standard I'm-big-and-have-a-big-axe barbarian. Its hard to win a trip check against someone with double your strength.

The most reliably cheesy class to play is a cleric, but I think that's mostly intentional, to reward people for being the party healbot.

Der Waffle Mous · October 2006

Out of curiosity, someone explain to me the brokenness of Artificers.

And are Warlocks really all that bad?

DeepQantas · October 2006

jdarksun wrote:

And as for saying that Exotic Weapon Master is cheesy because you can get an extra attack at the expense of -2 to all attack rolls that round, you might as well equally posit that Monks are cheesy.

That's an extra Two handed Power Attack. You almost double the damage/seconds in comparison to Greatsword.

Monks don't get that. Even quarterstaff counts as two separate weapons in Flurry.

*shrug* I suppose I'd have to do the math to know for sure.

All right. It seems like it's good for up to ACs where you'd normally need a roll of 13+ to hit your target. You can get +50% damage with that. With normal roll of 11+ required (or less) you can double the average damage.

So assuming BAB +7, weapon focus and strength +3 that's double damage to AC 22 monsters. Simple Power Attack gives you around +10% or so.

DeepQantas · October 2006

Hm. Just added some maths stuff up there... This is just using the chain for pure damage. It's not like you need to try the fancy stuff if you can easily outdamage the weapon that's designed for pure damage. This is also applicable to the exotic double weapons seeing as how you can take the Flurry for them as well.

Anyways, here's the relevant stuff:

Strength +3

Greatsword, AB +11, 2d6 + 4 (average 11)
Spiked Chain, AB +9, 2d4 + 4 (average 9)

Target - Weapon (Hit Chance) - Average damage per round (ignoring extra attacks from BAB)

AC 16 - Greatsword (16/20): 8.8 - Chain (14/20): 6.3 x2 = 10.8
AC 18 - Greatsword (14/20): 7.7 - Chain (12/20): 5.4 x2 = 10.8
AC 20 - Greatsword (12/20): 6.6 - Chain (10/20): 4.5 x2 = 9.0
AC 22 - Greatsword (10/20): 5.5 - Chain (8/20): 3.6 x2 = 7.2
AC 24 - Greatsword (8/20): 4.4 - Chain (6/20): 2.7 x2 = 5.4

With Power Attack -2/+4

Greatsword, AB +9, 2d6 + 8 (average 15)
Spiked Chain, AB +7, 2d4 + 8 (average 13)

AC 16 - Greatsword (14/20): 10.5 - Chain (12/20): 7.8 x2 = 15.6
AC 18 - Greatsword (12/20): 9.0 - Chain (10/20): 6.5 x2 = 13.0
AC 20 - Greatsword (10/20): 7.5 - Chain (8/20): 5.2 x2 = 10.4
AC 22 - Greatsword (8/20): 6.0 - Chain (6/20): 3.9 x2 = 7.8
AC 24 - Greatsword (6/20): 4.5 - Chain (4/20): 2.6 x2 = 5.2

With Power Attack -4/+8

Greatsword, AB +7, 2d6 + 12 (average 19)
Spiked Chain, AB +5, 2d4 + 12 (average 17)

AC 16 - Greatsword (12/20): 11.4 - Chain (10/20): 8.5 x2 = 17.0
AC 18 - Greatsword (10/20): 9.5 - Chain (8/20): 6.8 x2 = 13.6
AC 20 - Greatsword (8/20): 7.6 - Chain (6/20): 5.1 x2 = 10.2
AC 22 - Greatsword (6/20): 5.7 - Chain (4/20): 3.4 x2 = 6.8
AC 24 - Greatsword (4/20): 3.8 - Chain (2/20): 1.7 x2 = 3.4

Ok, fixed the numbers. Looks like it shifted a bit towards more reasonable. We're still talking about a sizeable damage increase. Actually I could calculate that real quick, too.

Power Attack

AC 16 - +30%
AC 18 - +23%
AC 20 - +15%
AC 22 - +9%
AC 24 - +2%

Power Attack and Flurry

AC 16 - +93%
AC 18 - +76%
AC 20 - +58%
AC 22 - +42%
AC 24 - +18%

Flurry when compared to Power Attack (ie. PA = 100%, Flurry is increase on that)

AC 16 - +49%
AC 18 - +43%
AC 20 - +37%
AC 22 - +30%
AC 24 - +16%

To me it seems pretty clear that Flurry is overpowered. The increase in power is about twice what Power Attack gives and it's also applicable to pretty high AC enemies.

Keep also in mind that Flurry gets more powerful as you gain levels since enemies' AC doesn't increase by 1 per every point of CR.

Penny Arcade

Quick Links

Whats the ultimate cheese D&D3.5

Posts

Penny Arcade

Whats the ultimate cheese D&amp;D3.5

Posts

Whats the ultimate cheese D&D3.5