he made a comment in an interview about how political correctness, especially in colleges, is killing comedy
people got offended at the idea of someone thinking they're too easily offended, basically
There aren't really any boundaries in comedy, but crassly offensive humor is the crutch of the shitty comic.
Basically, if you don't punch down, you're doing it right.
Nah. Crassly offensive comedy done well is an art in and of itself. Frankie Boyle is a national treasure, especially because people get positively apoplectic about his jokes, even when they are against powerful figures, and frankly ridiculous.
Also, the entire "punching down" analogy is ridiculous, both because "down" is highly ill-defined, and comparing free speech to physical violence is a dangerous and irresponsible call for censorship. The famous analogy of "shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre!" was never actually referring to that, but was referring to those dastardly anti-draft advocates expressing a political opinion via leaflets. If we want to talk about violence, well, comparing speech to things that aren't speech (treason, violence, war against God, whatever) is a slippery slope to causing actual violence, both state sponsored and mob, against people for having the wrong opinions.
I think Mika was more referring to micers wondering why their abortion joke got more walk outs than usual rather than seasoned professionals like Boyle or Jeselnik.
Well, bad comedy is bad. "What's the difference between a dump truck full of bowling balls and a dump truck full of dead babies?" is hilarious in middle school, but doesn't age well past its ridiculousness.
Also, as someone who performs comedy regularly, the punching down analogy is apt. Like it really doesn't take a genius to figure out why it's there.
You find that comics with less careful material send a lot of people to the emergency room?
There's a difference between telling jokes that make some people uncomfortable and kicking someone on the ground until they shit blood. Violence is violence. Being put out of your comfort zone is not.
nobody is saying it is actually like kicking or punching somebody, goddamn
Words mean things. If by "punch down," you don't want to draw even the slightest comparison with punching people, don't use the word punch.
For example, you could say, "Telling jokes which reinforce existing social stereotypes can lead to a bit more negative climate for people who are minorities," but that lacks the imagery of people imagining skinheads cornering an immigrant in an alleyway.
are you serious right now? this is such absurd offshoot for the dicussion, to rage against such a common phrase
it's like damn, the english language just ain't gonna be for you if you are going to be this literal
not sure if there is any other language that would suit you either
Are you being serious? People choose metaphors they feel are accurate and to bolster their points with emotional poignancy. I think in the case of people complaining about offensive comedy, the metaphor is overwrought, and also close to the sort of language consistently used by censors, and censorship is provably a substantially more dangerous problem than offensive comedy.
To go a bit abreast, sodomy is a perfect example. The same line of thought that decided to call oral/anal sex "sodomy" very much intended to evoke the imagery of a city so morally depraved it was destroyed by god, and some literally argue, even in the year 2015, that having anal sex actually causes natural disasters. That's not a coincidence. It was always a deliberate choice and in many cases a sincere belief that the terminology most perfectly described the situation.
So, no, I don't buy the arguments that people who refer to a type of speech as violence, and argue that speech is harmful, and argue that speech is immoral obviously intend for all parties to be completely aware it's merely a quirk of the language and in no way should be interpreted as an accurate analogy or metaphor that should inform their opinions in any way.
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Actually, I mentioned it previously. The level of vitriol against Seinfeld for his comments about colleges being too PC is significantly worse than when Chris Rock said the same thing
the opinion seems to be "you can understand why people would be more accepting of a black person saying it, yeah?", which I personally think backs up Jerry's original statement
I don't doubt out there somewhere there's a dumb part of the internet.
I am not part of it. And what started this was my statements. I pointed out that what he said was insensitive and him insisting that it's not also the case. What some corner of Tumblr thinks isn't relevant to that.
| Zinnar on most things | Avatar by Blameless Cleric
+4
Options
y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
If this caused them to starve or quit comedy it would be a little odd, but when you just made $128 mil selling your sitcom to Hulu I can understand not giving a shit about doing a show at bryn mawr
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Actually, I mentioned it previously. The level of vitriol against Seinfeld for his comments about colleges being too PC is significantly worse than when Chris Rock said the same thing
the opinion seems to be "you can understand why people would be more accepting of a black person saying it, yeah?", which I personally think backs up Jerry's original statement
that was my post
I haven't seen anyone else post on that particular topic
just to be clear that "the opinion" actually is only just my opinion and I don't actually represent the internet hate machine
he made a comment in an interview about how political correctness, especially in colleges, is killing comedy
people got offended at the idea of someone thinking they're too easily offended, basically
There aren't really any boundaries in comedy, but crassly offensive humor is the crutch of the shitty comic.
Basically, if you don't punch down, you're doing it right.
Nah. Crassly offensive comedy done well is an art in and of itself. Frankie Boyle is a national treasure, especially because people get positively apoplectic about his jokes, even when they are against powerful figures, and frankly ridiculous.
Also, the entire "punching down" analogy is ridiculous, both because "down" is highly ill-defined, and comparing free speech to physical violence is a dangerous and irresponsible call for censorship. The famous analogy of "shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre!" was never actually referring to that, but was referring to those dastardly anti-draft advocates expressing a political opinion via leaflets. If we want to talk about violence, well, comparing speech to things that aren't speech (treason, violence, war against God, whatever) is a slippery slope to causing actual violence, both state sponsored and mob, against people for having the wrong opinions.
I think Mika was more referring to micers wondering why their abortion joke got more walk outs than usual rather than seasoned professionals like Boyle or Jeselnik.
Well, bad comedy is bad. "What's the difference between a dump truck full of bowling balls and a dump truck full of dead babies?" is hilarious in middle school, but doesn't age well past its ridiculousness.
Also, as someone who performs comedy regularly, the punching down analogy is apt. Like it really doesn't take a genius to figure out why it's there.
You find that comics with less careful material send a lot of people to the emergency room?
There's a difference between telling jokes that make some people uncomfortable and kicking someone on the ground until they shit blood. Violence is violence. Being put out of your comfort zone is not.
nobody is saying it is actually like kicking or punching somebody, goddamn
Words mean things. If by "punch down," you don't want to draw even the slightest comparison with punching people, don't use the word punch.
For example, you could say, "Telling jokes which reinforce existing social stereotypes can lead to a bit more negative climate for people who are minorities," but that lacks the imagery of people imagining skinheads cornering an immigrant in an alleyway.
I've heard comedians mention it before. Matt Besser, one of the founders of UCB did a whole episode about it on his podcast. I guess the meaning could escape you if you were never exposed to it, but I don't think it's that offensive? Punch could be used figuratively.
I think? I'm not sure about anything anymore.
all i know is i punched the fuck out of crota last night
also thanks for the help. too bad my goddam headset wasn't working so i couldn't even hear you guys.
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Actually, I mentioned it previously. The level of vitriol against Seinfeld for his comments about colleges being too PC is significantly worse than when Chris Rock said the same thing
the opinion seems to be "you can understand why people would be more accepting of a black person saying it, yeah?", which I personally think backs up Jerry's original statement
that was my post
I haven't seen anyone else post on that particular topic
just to be clear that "the opinion" actually is only just my opinion and I don't actually represent the internet hate machine
If this caused them to starve or quit comedy it would be a little odd, but when you just made $128 mil selling your sitcom to Hulu I can understand not giving a shit about doing a show at bryn mawr
yeah but also on the other hand you made $128 mil selling your sitcom to Hulu so maybe work on some jokes that could go over well on a college campus instead of complaining about the PC police
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Just a few posts up somebody referred to him as a white guy who might not understand minorities.
Unless I misread?
with a caveat that he could definitely have experienced racism, sexism, prejudice, but that people react to white guys differently than black guys on those topics usually
guys you can just quote me directly if you want to actually discuss my opinion
+1
Options
y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
"arch you have to give a talk about bugs to preschoolers"
BUT THEY DONT UNDERSTAND GENETICS
I GUESS I CANT DO OUTREACH ANYMORE
If comedians don't want to tailor their creative output to a particular audiences taste, I don't see how that is weird or wrong
i disagree that art is somehow sacrosanct and we must always bow before the feet of the creator
You don't have to bow at his feet, but I don't find it strange someone wouldn't compromise their comedy to please everyone, even to play a few more (low paying) college shows
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Actually, I mentioned it previously. The level of vitriol against Seinfeld for his comments about colleges being too PC is significantly worse than when Chris Rock said the same thing
the opinion seems to be "you can understand why people would be more accepting of a black person saying it, yeah?", which I personally think backs up Jerry's original statement
that was my post
I haven't seen anyone else post on that particular topic
just to be clear that "the opinion" actually is only just my opinion and I don't actually represent the internet hate machine
Wait
SiG
You're not everyone?
I've been operating under massively inaccurate assumptions.
I know we are discussing people overreacting to offensive comedy but Bee movie was quite literally racist as fuck
Jerry's bee finds out that the honey people eat is produced by enslaved bees, so he takes the beekeepers to court
the beekeepers are represented in court by a fat guy who looks like colonel sanders, who speaks with a southern drawl, and argues that the bees are "happier as slaves"
jerry wins the case, frees the bees, and then they all just laze around and do nothing while the world withers and dies
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Just a few posts up somebody referred to him as a white guy who might not understand minorities.
Unless I misread?
with a caveat that he could definitely have experienced racism, sexism, prejudice, but that people react to white guys differently than black guys on those topics usually
guys you can just quote me directly if you want to actually discuss my opinion
If this caused them to starve or quit comedy it would be a little odd, but when you just made $128 mil selling your sitcom to Hulu I can understand not giving a shit about doing a show at bryn mawr
"arch you have to give a talk about bugs to preschoolers"
BUT THEY DONT UNDERSTAND GENETICS
I GUESS I CANT DO OUTREACH ANYMORE
If comedians don't want to tailor their creative output to a particular audiences taste, I don't see how that is weird or wrong
i disagree that art is somehow sacrosanct and we must always bow before the feet of the creator
You don't have to bow at his feet, but I don't find it strange someone wouldn't compromise their comedy to please everyone, even to play a few more (low paying) college shows
its mostly the complaining about it that bothers me
like, okay cool you wont compromise yourself to play these places
thats not like a sign of the moral decay of america due to the PC police
that is you not wanting to write new or different material to fit a particular audience
i always get confused when comedians say things like "oh I can't tell these kinds of jokes at colleges anymore, I guess I won't do them"
isnt your job writing jokes
cant you like
make new ones, or tailor your material more appropriately
shit i mean I change what is in my lectures depending on my audience, and you guys are getting paid a lot more per hour of talking than i am
well, Jerry never did colleges anyway (which is one of the main reasons I find the original backlash to be so funny)
but I think a lot of the problem also comes from not knowing what is acceptable to do, especially in the age of every phone ever having a recording device. It only takes one person recording one bad audience reaction to a joke for Gawker to spin it into "noted comedian goes on hateful tirade against minorities" (pretty sure it was Chappelle complaining about this recently, and he doesn't do clubs anymore to work out material)
sure, the backlash is warranted with the likes of Dane Cook, Ari Shaffir and Michael Richards in recent times but it must be terrifying that one particularly bad day on the job could ruin your career and legacy forever
"arch you have to give a talk about bugs to preschoolers"
BUT THEY DONT UNDERSTAND GENETICS
I GUESS I CANT DO OUTREACH ANYMORE
If comedians don't want to tailor their creative output to a particular audiences taste, I don't see how that is weird or wrong
i disagree that art is somehow sacrosanct and we must always bow before the feet of the creator
You don't have to bow at his feet, but I don't find it strange someone wouldn't compromise their comedy to please everyone, even to play a few more (low paying) college shows
its mostly the complaining about it that bothers me
like, okay cool you wont compromise yourself to play these places
thats not like a sign of the moral decay of america due to the PC police
that is you not wanting to write new or different material to fit a particular audience
He was asked a question! And gave an honest response. It's not like he's running around complaining about this to anyone who'll listen
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
If he used like a Jewish mother waving off bad liver or something people would of said nothing about it because Jerry is a Jew.
I don't know the joke wasn't that awful. It wasn't that funny. But considering the conversation before and after it worked.
Comedy is about timing and the timing worked even made me crack a small smile.
I think text readings of stuff like this, unless it was written in text at first, will probably miss a lot of a situation that makes the joke work.
Jerry is white, he can't be an oppressed minority. It screws up the narrative!
O_o
Spool you're doing that thing where you're arguing against something no one else at all has claimed.
Just a few posts up somebody referred to him as a white guy who might not understand minorities.
Unless I misread?
with a caveat that he could definitely have experienced racism, sexism, prejudice, but that people react to white guys differently than black guys on those topics usually
guys you can just quote me directly if you want to actually discuss my opinion
On mobile, quoting sucks. Sorry!
Then type my name!
0
Options
TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
Posts
Are you being serious? People choose metaphors they feel are accurate and to bolster their points with emotional poignancy. I think in the case of people complaining about offensive comedy, the metaphor is overwrought, and also close to the sort of language consistently used by censors, and censorship is provably a substantially more dangerous problem than offensive comedy.
To go a bit abreast, sodomy is a perfect example. The same line of thought that decided to call oral/anal sex "sodomy" very much intended to evoke the imagery of a city so morally depraved it was destroyed by god, and some literally argue, even in the year 2015, that having anal sex actually causes natural disasters. That's not a coincidence. It was always a deliberate choice and in many cases a sincere belief that the terminology most perfectly described the situation.
So, no, I don't buy the arguments that people who refer to a type of speech as violence, and argue that speech is harmful, and argue that speech is immoral obviously intend for all parties to be completely aware it's merely a quirk of the language and in no way should be interpreted as an accurate analogy or metaphor that should inform their opinions in any way.
I don't doubt out there somewhere there's a dumb part of the internet.
I am not part of it. And what started this was my statements. I pointed out that what he said was insensitive and him insisting that it's not also the case. What some corner of Tumblr thinks isn't relevant to that.
No jury would convict.
i disagree that art is somehow sacrosanct and we must always bow before the feet of the creator
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
that was my post
I haven't seen anyone else post on that particular topic
just to be clear that "the opinion" actually is only just my opinion and I don't actually represent the internet hate machine
Hugely from some circles. Like go to certain parts of the internet or bars and they're incredibly mad the movement isn't GB.
all i know is i punched the fuck out of crota last night
also thanks for the help. too bad my goddam headset wasn't working so i couldn't even hear you guys.
All of my assumptions
yeah but also on the other hand you made $128 mil selling your sitcom to Hulu so maybe work on some jokes that could go over well on a college campus instead of complaining about the PC police
Why shouldn't it be? It sounds quite serious.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
with a caveat that he could definitely have experienced racism, sexism, prejudice, but that people react to white guys differently than black guys on those topics usually
guys you can just quote me directly if you want to actually discuss my opinion
You don't have to bow at his feet, but I don't find it strange someone wouldn't compromise their comedy to please everyone, even to play a few more (low paying) college shows
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Also this entire discussion is carried on my hate for jerry seinfeld and his role in Bee movie
Actually, that IS a thing that happens, and it's BS.
He couldn't win you back with The Marriage Ref?
Wait
SiG
You're not everyone?
I've been operating under massively inaccurate assumptions.
Jerry's bee finds out that the honey people eat is produced by enslaved bees, so he takes the beekeepers to court
the beekeepers are represented in court by a fat guy who looks like colonel sanders, who speaks with a southern drawl, and argues that the bees are "happier as slaves"
jerry wins the case, frees the bees, and then they all just laze around and do nothing while the world withers and dies
On mobile, quoting sucks. Sorry!
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Huzzah!
Edit: Except it's kind of a bad thing which is less huzzah.
I am afraid and alone
[chat] plz
But Seinfeld doesn't do that anyway?
its mostly the complaining about it that bothers me
like, okay cool you wont compromise yourself to play these places
thats not like a sign of the moral decay of america due to the PC police
that is you not wanting to write new or different material to fit a particular audience
well, Jerry never did colleges anyway (which is one of the main reasons I find the original backlash to be so funny)
but I think a lot of the problem also comes from not knowing what is acceptable to do, especially in the age of every phone ever having a recording device. It only takes one person recording one bad audience reaction to a joke for Gawker to spin it into "noted comedian goes on hateful tirade against minorities" (pretty sure it was Chappelle complaining about this recently, and he doesn't do clubs anymore to work out material)
sure, the backlash is warranted with the likes of Dane Cook, Ari Shaffir and Michael Richards in recent times but it must be terrifying that one particularly bad day on the job could ruin your career and legacy forever
One moment, wazilla
I will bring you a calm, predictable spacepost to settle your constitution
OUTSTANDING
it requires that you appeal to me, specifically
He was asked a question! And gave an honest response. It's not like he's running around complaining about this to anyone who'll listen
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I would like to think that most comedians understand that if a certain group of people don't care for their content it's not some fault of that group.
The LGBT community is exclusive as fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
When I find another queer person we talk about broad social movements in an attempt to horrify straight people in our party
margaret cho doesn't complain about the anti pc police not letting her do her bits at the republican convention
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/us/amish-sect-leaders-conviction-is-overturned-in-hair-cutting-attacks.html?_r=0
hm.
It can be funny to pretend it is though!
Bee (the movie) excellent to each other
yes i stole your tagline narwhal suck it
Then type my name!
there's a serious lack of :bzz: in this thread
twitch.tv/tehsloth