Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[Phalla] Phallafly - The End, Village - and half the Mafia - Victory

12122232527

Posts

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    @jdarksun Thanks again for running, I had a ton of fun.

    I had a lot of fun captaining for my brief stint, although wasn't really popular enough to get a full crew. Then Virgil was killed and @REG Rysk deserted for a better life with Obi leaving me by myself. Which actually would have let me retire the next night.

    Then to add injury to insult got mafia placeholdered that night. The shame is all of my money got thrown away because the ship was abandoned. REG, you should have told me you were going to hang out with the cool kids, I would have sent your share of the money at least.

    @Jpants From the mafia boards looks like you killed me? My vengeance will be neither swift nor entertaining! I will mete it out over decades, so that you will wonder if the misery in your life is manifest, the machinations of 38thDoE, or... some third thing. Good day!

    Lots of people weren't joining ships. I don't know what the max was but people were assuming my ship was stacked but only sepah and cantide joined, with lucedes hopping on board at the last second.

    jdarksun
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    If I had not died our ship was set to make mad stacks

    Erin The RedCantidejdarksunkime
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    I was bounty hunting with Obifett from day 1. Had a +$500 bonus for bounties.

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    You would have hit the jackpot had you crossed paths with the Starwhal. We were the criminal boat.

    3DS Friend Code 3282-2248-0453
    jdarksun
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    edited June 2015
    We were pretty tough to board though, especially when ZH was still onboard,

    Gizzy on
    3DS Friend Code 3282-2248-0453
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    @38thDoe sorry I didn't join your ship! After all these stories about crashing space ships together the lure of Bedlam was too great!

    3DS Friend Code 3282-2248-0453
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Also what was the balancing factor of being Moral, or Lawful?

    At first I thought they got better skills/professions to make up for -50% money on a lot of jobs, but then I saw other captains who even got bonuses for doing those jobs which tended to pay better anyways.



    steam_sig.png
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    @Auralynx

    You sold me out! But, but we was Starwhal buddies!

  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Langly wrote: »
    If I had not died our ship was set to make mad stacks

    As the game went on a bit it was pretty obvious that only smaller ships had a chance to have everyone retire.



    steam_sig.png
    jdarksun
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Also, I have to repeat, I don't see late day 1 grudge votes as being any less valid than early ones.



    steam_sig.png
    LanglyJusticeforPluto
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    If I had not died our ship was set to make mad stacks

    As the game went on a bit it was pretty obvious that only smaller ships had a chance to have everyone retire.

    By happenstance every single one of my crew had at least one negotiate, two of them had double negotiations. If we hadn't lost hands I'm pretty sure we could have hit 20k

    jdarksunErin The Red
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    If I had not died our ship was set to make mad stacks

    As the game went on a bit it was pretty obvious that only smaller ships had a chance to have everyone retire.

    As a captain, I found myself heavily disadvantaged due to only having a smaller ship.

    - I started with only RNGed crew, so I only had Buddha and Wildcat aboard. We started with 6 Fight and 2 warrants instead of any sort of useful and deep mix of skills.
    - Buddha informed us day 1/0 that he wished to jump ship, as he would've joined his brother's ship had he remembered to choose. This led to me threatening him with a vote if he deserted, because I had literally nothing to stop him leaving, it would hurt our crew far far too much and he wasn't even going to wait for a ship to pass by us (instead only jumping onto the currently orbited planet). If I had been in a larger crew, then this wouldn't have been a problem.
    - Night 1, Wildcat gets shot by the mafia. This sort of flak is to be expected N1, as we do not have the voting/special killing power that a random full ship of players has, and so it is far more likely for all small ships to be completely obliterated before the large ships get significantly touched. Still left us in a bad way, as at least 6 Fight would've afforded us some protection against boarders.
    - Day 2, am not going the same way as GG. GG winds up getting voted out anyway. So in any case my one remaining crew member can't be easily dropped onto GG's ship for safety and now has a bounty on his head, with next to no protection due to the number of players on board the ship. This proves absolutely correct when:
    - Night 2, get Pirated for the single cargo loaded Day 1. Can't fight back because the ship's highest skill is 4 fight, compared to the likely 5-6 Tech/Negotiation used to board my ship in the first place.
    - Day 3, get Paid for a job.. at -$800 due to having to buy NPCs to complete said job. This still would have left me at $2000, if I hadn't pulled the Alliance cruiser and lost the other $600 of my starting money (because my crew started with warrants and no way to hide said warrant from the fuzz; not necessarily a small ship problem though).
    - Night 3, killed by Reavers. Net profit: +$400.

    Round up:
    Groked that being in a small ship and being vanillager left me no way to impact the game in any meaningful manner late day 1.
    Was hoping that calling lame duck would prevent random targeting from the large ships, and then maybe I could be left alone to retire.
    Realistically though, I should have withdrawn late day 1 because there was nothing I could contribute to this game, and maybe JDark could have then bolstered remaining ship numbers to give the other small ships a better chance.

    In the ideal situation, the soft factions should start the game with the same number of people in each.
    With the crew mechanic in this game, a set number of captains could have been nominated based on the number of signups, and then players could have assigned themselves under those to try and prevent full ships overpowering smaller ships. Worse case scenario is that one ship still ends up only with a lonely captain, or perhaps 2 ships of 4 and 3 players.
    Otherwise, randomly assigning players is the only fair way to mete out manpower to each ship in the case where there aren't enough players to go around captains and too many people want to work under the one captain.

    I don't blame JDark for any of this. It seems like this was a cool game for people on the large ships, and I put myself in captain to try and be chaff for the other captains who I assumed would draw mafia fire.
    But yeah, couldn't do anything meaningful with the vote because the large ships were voting together. Couldn't do anything in the firefly game because I didn't have the manpower.

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • ArdorArdor Registered User regular
    Thanks for running the game jdarksun.

    Fair points discrider. I paid very little attention to the game as I only offered to be a replacement to help the game continue on. I didn't realize that there were different size ships, thus creating various sized groups in the beginning which were like the soft-networking folks mentioned.

    What were the benefits of a small ship? Were you more mobile? Move movement?

    Besides the very obvious negatives a smaller ship carried mentioned above, I'm curious about the net positives.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    The only net positive is you were more likely to get a larger share of whatever money you did manage to scrounge.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • ArdorArdor Registered User regular
    As seen with some of the other ships, the captain could've just kept the payouts anyways, pretty much accomplishing the same thing, right?

    In addition, they also had a larger skill set available.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Yes, pretty much.

    Really the greater chance at paying out only matters if you are:
    1. Not being killed by the bigger crews.
    2. Getting large payouts in the first place when you have to pay NPC crew and/or forgo misbehaving/boarding due to lack of skills (and thus not make lots of money).
    3. Are holding onto your money (Piracy can steal money, Alliance ship can steal money if you don't have keywords, and so on).

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Auralynx

    You sold me out! But, but we was Starwhal buddies!

    Considering how this played out I don't think that's an entirely fair read Of the situation.

    Did identify you, though, because your bounty / retirement money generally was in fact the deciding factor this game.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    If we were really thinking we could have all the captains as one super OP crew.
    Gizzy wrote: »
    @38thDoe sorry I didn't join your ship! After all these stories about crashing space ships together the lure of Bedlam was too great!

    Ah no worries, previous commitments are previous commitments. Your steadfastness is what makes you good crew!



    steam_sig.png
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Auralynx

    You sold me out! But, but we was Starwhal buddies!

    Considering how this played out I don't think that's an entirely fair read Of the situation.

    Did identify you, though, because your bounty / retirement money generally was in fact the deciding factor this game.

    Ah I'm joking. You didn't do anything I wouldn't of done.

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    Ardor wrote: »
    Thanks for running the game jdarksun.

    Fair points discrider. I paid very little attention to the game as I only offered to be a replacement to help the game continue on. I didn't realize that there were different size ships, thus creating various sized groups in the beginning which were like the soft-networking folks mentioned.

    What were the benefits of a small ship? Were you more mobile? Move movement?

    Besides the very obvious negatives a smaller ship carried mentioned above, I'm curious about the net positives.

    he's calling it a small ship only because of how many crew he had. There was no mechanical difference between ships and if he had had more crew join, his ship would be "bigger"

    jdarksunErin The Red
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    @38thDoe Obi had promised to let me retire first, which was my only real goal. I didn't expect you to get killed and wanted to ensure I got my cash. Just a bad turn of events.

  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Sepah wrote: »
    Feels like the reavers got pretty unlucky this game. Caught in the cross fire.
    Truth. I put a lot of limits on them (couldn't convert the first night, could only convert every other night, couldn't covert pre-networked characters, had to be in the same sector to convert), but I feel like that's necessary to keep conversions balanced and interesting. BTW, thanks to @Infidel and @MrBlarney for some good advice on that.

    The Alliance's two kills per night was also a balancing factor in that regard - it would allow them to aggressively target Crew of ships that were co-located with Reaver vessels (if folk had figured that out).
    Ah, so bounties were fatal?
    Yeah, they were intended to be fatal but I posted an old version of the Bounty rules. The mafia got the new set, and were super confused when Obi was adamant that it wouldn't kill villagers. So I put a day delay on it.

    Dragon/Crow died immediately because of inactivity. The only reason the Village got to turn him in was because Character Actions happened before the Vote.
    Bounties were not fatal, they removed you from B game. You could still win a villager victory, vote and use powers.
    Yeah, that the second big mistake on my part. The risk/reward pay off should have been: any action that got you money (increased your chance to win in the B game) should increase your risk of getting eliminated (in either the A game or the B game).
    38thDoe wrote: »
    The shame is all of my money got thrown away because the ship was abandoned.
    The money was still there. Nobody investigated the abandoned ships... :rotate:
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Also what was the balancing factor of being Moral, or Lawful?

    At first I thought they got better skills/professions to make up for -50% money on a lot of jobs, but then I saw other captains who even got bonuses for doing those jobs which tended to pay better anyways.
    Everyone who started with a Warrant had the chance of a Bounty being issued against them. The Moral characters that could get Bounties - River, Simon, and Zoë - were outrageously powerful in the right situation. Once linked up with Simon, River had a 50% chance of having 3x Skills of whatever was most useful at the moment. Zoë's Dust Devil ability (May re-roll failed Fight Skill Tests once per Test) could kick off multiple times per Work if the Captain was Misbehaving.

    The outlier to that is Helen, a Moral character with a Warrant and without a super awesome or unique Special. Sorry about that, JPants, thought I don't think it ever bit you.
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    If I had not died our ship was set to make mad stacks
    As the game went on a bit it was pretty obvious that only smaller ships had a chance to have everyone retire.
    A Crew of 4 picking the right Jobs could have Retired two or three days earlier than a Crew of 6.
    discrider wrote: »
    Yes, pretty much.

    Really the greater chance at paying out only matters if you are:
    1. Not being killed by the bigger crews.
    2. Getting large payouts in the first place when you have to pay NPC crew and/or forgo misbehaving/boarding due to lack of skills (and thus not make lots of money).
    3. Are holding onto your money (Piracy can steal money, Alliance ship can steal money if you don't have keywords, and so on).
    1. Drez (Day 1) was on a Crew 5 ship. GG (Day 2) was the Captain of a Crew of 3, true, but voting out Captains was objectively worse for the Village and yet they did it anyway. The same thing happened to Gumpy Day 3.
    2. A solo Captain could have retired on Day 4 if he was able to avoid pirates (and pirates like Gumpy got voted out). A Crew of 4 could have done it on Day 5 with the right Gear. That's the trick to Misbehaving - having the right Gear.
    3. Pirates could not steal money, only cargo or contraband. Alliance ships only stole money from ships with Warrants, which was the downside to working Illegal Jobs or having an unlawful crew.

  • DeamonIzualDeamonIzual Registered User regular
    Thanks for running the game Jdark, I had a lot of fun playing tactician for TRV even if I didn't have any really power otherwise. If anyone was curious, I was tracking the game board each night using Tabletop Simulator and using that to plan our raids (until I was snagged by the alliance). Here are a few screenshots:

    Day 3
    ug3988iov89g.jpg

    Day 4
    br6cz2kfnyyt.jpg

    jdarksun38thDoeGizzyAuralynxLanglyErin The RedCantideBuddha73CythraulKaplar
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    I am very entertained that there is a flip table button.
    jdarksun wrote: »
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Also what was the balancing factor of being Moral, or Lawful?

    At first I thought they got better skills/professions to make up for -50% money on a lot of jobs, but then I saw other captains who even got bonuses for doing those jobs which tended to pay better anyways.
    Everyone who started with a Warrant had the chance of a Bounty being issued against them. The Moral characters that could get Bounties - River, Simon, and Zoë - were outrageously powerful in the right situation. Once linked up with Simon, River had a 50% chance of having 3x Skills of whatever was most useful at the moment. Zoë's Dust Devil ability (May re-roll failed Fight Skill Tests once per Test) could kick off multiple times per Work if the Captain was Misbehaving.

    The outlier to that is Helen, a Moral character with a Warrant and without a super awesome or unique Special. Sorry about that, JPants, thought I don't think it ever bit you.

    I meant how my captain was moral, so took 50% less money on immoral jobs.

    YoSafBridge
    Name: Yolanda. Or Saffron. Or Bridge.
    Type: (Upgraded) Captain
    Profession: Companion, Grifter
    Skills: Negotiate, Negotiate, Tech
    Special: Deceptive: Change your name to discard a Wanted token. Must insist players call you by your new name.

    vs

    Monty
    Name: Monty
    Type: Captain
    Profession: Mechanic, Soldier
    Moral
    Skills: Fight, Fight, Tech
    Special: Smuggler Extraordinaire - When you complete a Smuggling Job, take $500.

    Is moral or lawful ever a keyword on challenges or something?



    steam_sig.png
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    @jdarksun if you ever want to host another game that is transaction heavy with complicated orders I'd be happy to cohost to alleviate a lot of that work. I think both ZH and Aura can attest that I'm good at keeping up with that kind of stuff!

    3DS Friend Code 3282-2248-0453
    AuralynxjdarksunZombie HeroMatev
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Gizzy wrote: »
    jdarksun if you ever want to host another game that is transaction heavy with complicated orders I'd be happy to cohost to alleviate a lot of that work. I think both ZH and Aura can attest that I'm good at keeping up with that kind of stuff!

    The agree button alone doesn't suffice for that one. Gizzy is aces as a partner for running these, sets up automation stuff real well, misses almost nothing, and is all-around fun to work with.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


    Gizzy
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    ::blush::

    3DS Friend Code 3282-2248-0453
  • JPantsJPants Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    @jdarksun Thanks again for running, I had a ton of fun.

    I had a lot of fun captaining for my brief stint, although wasn't really popular enough to get a full crew. Then Virgil was killed and @REG Rysk deserted for a better life with Obi leaving me by myself. Which actually would have let me retire the next night.

    Then to add injury to insult got mafia placeholdered that night. The shame is all of my money got thrown away because the ship was abandoned. REG, you should have told me you were going to hang out with the cool kids, I would have sent your share of the money at least.

    @Jpants From the mafia boards looks like you killed me? My vengeance will be neither swift nor entertaining! I will mete it out over decades, so that you will wonder if the misery in your life is manifest, the machinations of 38thDoE, or... some third thing. Good day!

    Pretty much all my targets were against people we DIDN'T have good information on. Trying to figure out who everyone was (character wise) and such was my own Game C, really.

    Auralynx
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Meh I'm annoyed it was you because I like working with you and so probably will not get around to killing you. Curse my lack of bloodthirst.
    38thDoE
    moral
    lawful



    steam_sig.png
    JPants
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2015
    I so desperately wanted to actually, successfully grab bounties and be the bounty hunter in this game. I boarded like 3 ships and never found one. The "Last Known Location" thing was a lie and really frustrating. The only bounty I got was convincing Jpants to dump Dragon on a planet so I could scoop him up and turn him in. At the end, I was having a massive conflict in my head about what to do. I could have easily just turned in Gizzy/Wash, but by that point my Bounty Hunter Captain had basically done no real bounty hunting and instead had mainly been helping people? So it guess it was fitting that she ended up reuniting as many people on the Starwhal as possible. It felt kind of like a Han Solo story arc (scoundrel gets pulled into helping a greater cause and goes with it) and I'm cool with that.

    If bounties are a thing in the future, there needs to be way to track down targets outside of soft-networking. Also, if bounty turn-ins cause death, then the rewards need to be much much bigger, imo.

    I loved the choices in this game and the conflicts it caused when it came to the various ways to win. It was chaotic and tense and fun. If this is done again, I would recommend stitching the phalla game a bit more into the firefly game, but i think it would be fine running it with no changes as well.

    I'm bummed that things went down the way they did with Bedlam. I'm sure I could have handled it better. As evidenced by my actions later in the game, I was totally willing to work with that ship as long as it didn't sacrifice or hurt the village win. I wasn't trying to strong arm him, fwiw. My conversation with him was basically pointing to his actions with me in the past where he put winning with the village above trusting any mafia in an effort to get him to do the same in this game. He was our vig and the village needed his kills. He left our convo before responding to many of my comments and then withdrew. So then I went to the thread and made sure everyone was aware of the situation happening on the Starwhal so the village could understand that a group of players were unwilling to vote for each other. That is definitely dangerous for the village as a whole so I used that leverage. Everything I did was based on sound game theory and was done for the purpose of getting the village the win. I abandoned all my firefly goals the second I became nethead.

    It was nothing personal against anyone on that ship. Even if you had decided to all retire, that would have been your choice and one I would have had to accept post-game with maybe some grudges. But I also couldn't just sit back and let a big chunk of the village + mafia work together to all leave the game and take our vig with them all while their votes were basically conditional.

    It was an interesting conflict with no real "wrong" sides which is always fun in phalla, imo.

    ObiFett on
  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    I like being a seer

  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    My strategy is to always peek at the people I'm working with most to see if I can trust them.

    What do other folks do? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS

  • SLyMSLyM Registered User regular
    My strategy is to make a big ol' text document detailing my plans for the rest of the game then get killed by the SK day 1.

    Steam Starcraft SLeague of Legends
    ObiFettErin The RedLangly38thDoeMatevCythraulWildcatBuddha73
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    I've moved over to the jdark / langly school of putting out some feelers early but not trying to get a plan in motion until the first couple days go by from my original "F it, we're doing this live" gameplan. It's been more effective but less fun.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    edited June 2015
    My strategy is to always peek at the people I'm working with most to see if I can trust them.

    What do other folks do? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS

    Always seer yourself first so that you know whether you are an insane seer or not. Can't trust yourself until you can trust yourself.

    Baidol on
    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
    Erin The Red38thDoeWildcat
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Baidol wrote: »
    My strategy is to always peek at the people I'm working with most to see if I can trust them.

    What do other folks do? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS

    Always seer yourself first so that you know whether you are an insane seer or not. Can't trust yourself until you can trust yourself.

    BshpqKOCAAAMR3M.jpg
    I hate that show, but it was the first thing that came to mind.

    ObiFett on
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    So who were all the specials?

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Bedlam/Egos - Vig
    TRV - Seer
    Buddha/??? - Masons (seriously what happened here?)

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Ugh, I got killed randomly as a placeholder? Darn. We only needed a few days before we could have been unstoppable!
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Well, kime defending his reaver buddy right before he died red didn't help.

    Eh. I'd have done the same either way. It was stupid reasoning. If I'd have died any other day, everyone would have forgotten about it. I just picked the worst night to get sniped :P
    shalmelo wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Well, kime defending his reaver buddy right before he died red didn't help.

    The thing is - I wasn't even a Reaver when he was defending me. The wagon was forming on me on day 2 when Baidol died and I took over the captaincy. Kime defended me while I was still a Spacer, then converted me that night.


    I came so close to just skipping the Reaver kill on night 3 just to let the heat die down and try to convert someone night 4. But in the end I felt like I had to use the kill. And when Preda turned out to be Alliance and non-convertible, it was all over.

    Thanks for running the game, jdark, that was complex as hell but it was good fun.

    Yeah. Not getting your conversion was also unfortunate :(. Bad string of luck for the Reavers!

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Well, kime defending his reaver buddy right before he died red didn't help.

    Eh. I'd have done the same either way. It was stupid reasoning. If I'd have died any other day, everyone would have forgotten about it. I just picked the worst night to get sniped :P

    Yeah, I've played with you long enough to know that you always do what you would normally do regardless of your role.

    Its how you did it that made me suspicious of it and why I brought up the Shalmelo defense as a reason we should look at him.

Sign In or Register to comment.