If the large majority of the audience projects, then the show didn't do a good enough job preventing them from projecting.
I can understand this happening with people in general. But if someone is purporting to be a critic, I expect them to actually pay attention to what they're critiquing
If they watched more than one episode, are a critic, and still complained about stereotypes in Sense8, then yes I would agree they are a bad critic.
If they only watched one episode, I'd give them some leeway for reasons explained in the rest of the post you quoted.
If any of them got the idea that Wolfgang is Russian, Sun is subservient, or Nomi is a hacker I am absolutely fine saying they're bad critics because those ideas are explicitly shown to be untrue.
Man, I don't know what people are saying they characters are stereotypes of.
I had a hard time doing it myself because I watched the whole series its hard to separate what I knew only in the first episode from what I know now. I was trying to purposefully be wrong even though I knew the characters aren't stereotypes. I just know that after the first episode, the characters did feel kind of typical to me.
And as the average person watching, whatever! No biggie. But critics should be paying better attention than that. If they aren't they're doing a bad job.
The thing is that the characters do feel like they start off as stereotypical archetypes:
- Subserviant Asian Woman
- Male Cop who just wants to do the right thing
- Hacker type on the fringe of society
- Excited African waaaay too into Western Culture - Eastern European dealing with a crime syndicate
- Hispanic Actor doing incredibly cheesy Telenovella
- Indian woman being pushed into arranged marraige
- Punk English chick with a broken past
I mean these aren't anything new and are pretty trope-y. BUT, if someone watched the entire show, they would realize that while the characters may start off feeling stereotypical they flesh out in really interesting and non-stereotypical ways that also breaks down stereotypes of the region they are at. If someone only watched a single episode, I might give them a pass on thinking that the characters are just tropes. If anyone who watched the whole series still thought that way, then they clearly didn't pay any attention.
Wolfgang and his family are Germans, but the name Bogdanow and the Orthodox funeral does suggest that they have some sort of Slavic roots. Which would make sense given that they're from East Berlin. Travel internally in the East Bloc wasn't unheard of.
I enjoy when it gets more muddled like that - see also, how not all the Indian characters are Hindu (even Kala's own family might be mixed - apparently the dish her father makes is traditionally a Parsi dish (Parsi are ethnically Indian Zoroastrians)). Or how Riley isn't at all a traditionally Icelandic name, but it's because of a favourite song of her father's.
Jeeeeeeez you guys know nothing about Germany, do you? Or Europe, at that. First of all, Germany is in Western Europe. Secondly, I know fewer people with slavic surnames who would identify as slavic than people with slavic surnames who wouldn't even think about it and are as potato-German as they come, and I know a lot of people with slavic surnames. Hell, I have a Polish surname myself, and I am German to the bone, don't know shit about Poland, don't speak a word of the language, and wouldn't even dream of identifying as Polish, just because one sixteenth of my family somewhere up the patrilineal branch of my ancestors left me this name.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
+1
jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
edited June 2015
Again, Wolfgang is probably some level of Eastern European, the same way some people in Boston are 'Irish', given that he's named Bogdanow and his family seems to practice Orthodox Christianity which is not the majority faith in Germany.
But he grew up in Berlin and seems generally German. And also refers to himself as such, but only later.
Edit: didn't see the post above before making this one. But to be clear I was not saying Wolfgang wasn't German, just pointing out a few of the things I felt might legitimately have led people to believe he wasn't. Also, I live in Denmark so I know about Europe thank you very much. Arguably though Eastern Europe can be as much a political as a geographic description, and Wolfgang did grow up in East Berlin. Though I agree he's not living in Eastern Europe by any definition today.
Edit 2: also, your post seems unnecessarily hostile. I am open to the possibility that that is just me reading too much into it,though. @Kashaar
In the first few episodes the cast felt like the burger king kids club, where minorities are like trading cards and the goal is to have exactly one of each.
But as the show went on and each was developed, that quickly went away.
I'm gonna come back to this comment because it's really bothering me
Because it comes across as kinda snidely dismissive and shitty and casually racist?
As if having a cast that is appropriately representative of the population of the areas in a global story (which is what this was, a global story) is somehow a cheap stunt or a ploy in some fashion
It plays into the idea that "white people are the default", and "minorities" are the variation that should only be added as an option, and doing so too much is some kind of ploy.
Except, in South Korea, Kenya, India, and Mexico, white people are the minorities
So parts of the story that are set there, which comprises a full half of the show, is going to heavily utilize non-white actors. That's not a marketing stunt, that's realism in fiction.
If your instinctive response is to be cynical, skeptical, or hesitant to the presence of all these gosh darn minorities
Maybe have a good think, yeah?
I'm not ready to wade into something that starts of this hostile.
If i find the energy i'll be back.
I think you may be the one doin' all the projecting. You expect any criticism to be racist so that's what you see.
0
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
The thing is that the characters do feel like they start off as stereotypical archetypes:
- Subserviant Asian Woman
- Male Cop who just wants to do the right thing
- Hacker type on the fringe of society
- Excited African waaaay too into Western Culture - Eastern European dealing with a crime syndicate
- Hispanic Actor doing incredibly cheesy Telenovella
- Indian woman being pushed into arranged marraige
- Punk English chick with a broken past
I mean these aren't anything new and are pretty trope-y. BUT, if someone watched the entire show, they would realize that while the characters may start off feeling stereotypical they flesh out in really interesting and non-stereotypical ways that also breaks down stereotypes of the region they are at. If someone only watched a single episode, I might give them a pass on thinking that the characters are just tropes. If anyone who watched the whole series still thought that way, then they clearly didn't pay any attention.
Wolfgang and his family are Germans, but the name Bogdanow and the Orthodox funeral does suggest that they have some sort of Slavic roots. Which would make sense given that they're from East Berlin. Travel internally in the East Bloc wasn't unheard of.
I enjoy when it gets more muddled like that - see also, how not all the Indian characters are Hindu (even Kala's own family might be mixed - apparently the dish her father makes is traditionally a Parsi dish (Parsi are ethnically Indian Zoroastrians)). Or how Riley isn't at all a traditionally Icelandic name, but it's because of a favourite song of her father's.
Jeeeeeeez you guys know nothing about Germany, do you? Or Europe, at that. First of all, Germany is in Western Europe. Secondly, I know fewer people with slavic surnames who would identify as slavic than people with slavic surnames who wouldn't even think about it and are as potato-German as they come, and I know a lot of people with slavic surnames. Hell, I have a Polish surname myself, and I am German to the bone, don't know shit about Poland, don't speak a word of the language, and wouldn't even dream of identifying as Polish, just because one sixteenth of my family somewhere up the patrilineal branch of my ancestors left me this name.
Exactly!
I don't know very much about Germany (except that I know that Germany is Western Europe, I've played my fair share of WWII strategy board games). But I've never been there! And I think most people (Americans at least) didn't or haven't either. Is it wrong for someone to not know everything about everywhere? This was a very global show and kudos to anyone with enough knowledge about ALL of those places to make the correct assumption in each of them. But I would imagine that most people projected early due to information, location, and character overload. Its what our brains do when information comes at us quickly and in large quantities.
Which is why it was genius. It gave the viewer just a small enough view of Wolfgang to make it feel like Eastern Europe or something based on wrong preconceived notions. Then once we've projected, it breaks the mold and you realize its in Germany and Wolfgang isn't just this tough heartless dude because look how he's dealing with Kaala. And voila, you've got a taste of what its like to be a Sense8 due to feeling like you just drilled down past a false exterior into the real inner self of the character. I think it accomplished exactly that with every single character over the course of the series.
So with Wolfgang I am not sure it was the tattoos or whatever that said to me Russian or at least Russian past.
It was the Eastern Orthodox Priest doing the ceremony. That is more of a visual marker than anything else.
Also Wolfgang's family is East Berlin pre-wall fall. The family obviously has some Russian or Russian style connections.
The cross on the grave is why my brain straight to the Russian thing.
It isn't till later you really get he is just German not a German/Russian mix.
This is what I'm talking about with visual shorthand
Your brain jumped to a conclusion and filled in a blank
It was wrong, but it is a thing people do to varying extents
It doesn't make the character a stereotype
It doesn't mean the show relied on stereotypes until it filled in the characters later
It doesn't mean the show relied on betraying those stereotypes as a dramatic device to make a point to you, the viewer
It's just something you did because people do that, for good or for ill, they do it to varying extents
and some people do it so severely they project facts where there are no facts, or project an idea despite their being information that conflicts with it because it suits the narrative in their head better
like, if you pay attention when Riley speaks, she clearly doesn't have an English accent. You have to have a very good ear for accents to pick out that she very specifically has an Icelandic accent (I have a very good ear for accents, it didn't sound specifically Icelandic to me at first, just... Nordic?), but you don't have to have a good ear for accents to know it's not English. She's not like anyone else in the scenes she's in. Nobody has to say "Oh, Riley's from Iceland" for you to get she's speaking with an accent completely different from everyone else around her.
Yet, to some, she is "the British DJ", despite the fact that she's not British? Her storyline takes place in Britain, I guess. But it's not an element of her character, at all. And you basically have to ignore how the character talks and fill that in with something in your head to make that work.
I'll venture that it can be difficult to pick up on those details the first time through because of the rapid-fire cast and location changes. It's like watching the first five minutes of eight different shows in a row. You barely have time to process what just happened before you're halfway around the world again with an entirely new set of people. It's understandable that some viewers would latch on to a particular detail and use it to anchor their memory of the previous scene.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
The Icelandic accent doesn't rally sound like Scandinavian accents at all. Swedish and Norwegian accents might be a little bit similar, but all the Nordic languages have different melodies (can't remember the actual linguistic term).
Also, she doesn't exactly have a thick accent, unlike all the Icelandic exchange students I run into here in Copenhagen (technically they learn Danish in school but most prefer English). Or I guess we can use Björk for another example.
That aside, and speaking of stereotypes,Riley's actress' name might be the new Benedict Cumberbatch. Tuppence Middleton, really?
I'll venture that it can be difficult to pick up on those details the first time through because of the rapid-fire cast and location changes. It's like watching the first five minutes of eight different shows in a row. You barely have time to process what just happened before you're halfway around the world again with an entirely new set of people. It's understandable that some viewers would latch on to a particular detail and use it to anchor their memory of the previous scene.
sure
that makes sense
the problem becomes using that memory as a foundation point to start filling details with made up stuff
especially when it conflicts with information presented in the show
that's what I'm talking about with projection
and I see both professional (well, as professional as critics on the internet are) critics and people just in online discussion in general doing this kind of thing
some are trying to argue that it's okay to do this if you've only watched like, one or two episodes
and i don't agree because like, for example, if you watch any episode with Kala in it and you come to the conclusion she's in an arranged marriage, including the first one
you're just making shit up in your head because your brain is going "If an Indian person is in a marriage circumstance they're unhappy with, it's an arranged marriage, because that's a thing I know about India, people do arranged marriages there and sometimes are unhappy about it."
except the show goes out of its way, repeatedly, to point out how this isn't the case and makes a point of contrasting Kala's circumstances with that of an arranged marriage
so if you're thinking that, you're at best misremembering and confusing details or at worst
just stereotyping and inventing details whole cloth because they fit a narrative projection in your head better.
+3
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
So with Wolfgang I am not sure it was the tattoos or whatever that said to me Russian or at least Russian past.
It was the Eastern Orthodox Priest doing the ceremony. That is more of a visual marker than anything else.
Also Wolfgang's family is East Berlin pre-wall fall. The family obviously has some Russian or Russian style connections.
The cross on the grave is why my brain straight to the Russian thing.
It isn't till later you really get he is just German not a German/Russian mix.
It doesn't mean the show relied on betraying those stereotypes as a dramatic device to make a point to you, the viewer
It's just something you did because people do that, for good or for ill, they do it to varying extents
and some people do it so severely they project facts where there are no facts, or project an idea despite their being information that conflicts with it because it suits the narrative in their head better
like, if you pay attention when Riley speaks, she clearly doesn't have an English accent. You have to have a very good ear for accents to pick out that she very specifically has an Icelandic accent (I have a very good ear for accents, it didn't sound specifically Icelandic to me at first, just... Nordic?), but you don't have to have a good ear for accents to know it's not English. She's not like anyone else in the scenes she's in. Nobody has to say "Oh, Riley's from Iceland" for you to get she's speaking with an accent completely different from everyone else around her.
Yet, to some, she is "the British DJ", despite the fact that she's not British? Her storyline takes place in Britain, I guess. But it's not an element of her character, at all. And you basically have to ignore how the character talks and fill that in with something in your head to make that work.
If you are gonna keep specifically calling out my reasoning, then I'm gonna have to keep defending it?
Its Cognitive Bias and everyone does it constantly. Like literally all the time. It has to be done in almost every situation. Spaces have to be filled in and weight has to be placed on some information over others. Its hardly "wrong" when so much new information is coming at a viewer they are doing their best to categorize whatever they can. We've seen in this very thread how Wolfgang's origin is muddled (probably on purpose) and even you pointed out that Riley was in England and is a DJ. Some people will put more weight to those two facts (over an obscure accent they might not be able to pinpoint), then categorize her as that Punk British DJ.
This show expected you to do it and even made it hard not to do it. Then as they revealed more about the characters (often through the sense8 experience) the audience, too, was challenged on their cognitive biases and saw deeper into the characters.
You can't keep saying that the majority of the audience is doing something incorrect (even though we all do it), but its not the show's fault and the show runners also weren't smart enough to maybe even incorporate that very concept into the show's experience. Its like you are trying to say that you are incapable of projecting and just "got" the show right away, didn't miss any info, and got everything right about the characters in the first episode and anyone who did only watch one episode and thought there were stereotypes clearly hasn't conquered the universal and crucial cognitive bias.
edit: and you keep going back to the list I made previously, which was thrown together in like 3 minutes and an attempt to maybe come up with some basic information for why people thought the characters were stereotypical. If you want to attack actual stereotypes that are being thrown around from just the first episode, don't use my list as its basically a strawman.
Yeah it's really great the way the show presents these characters initially and at first glance it's all too easy to just write them off as tropes,
i.e. Indians in Arranged Marriage or Asian Businesswoman when in reality almost all of those tropes are ultimately subverted. Kala is not in an arranged marriage, she's upset because she's (ostensibly) marrying for love and doesn't love the guy. Sun's life revolves around her family but hey she sometimes goes and kicks the shit out of dudes in underground martial arts matches. Lito is a famous action star but also hella gay. Will is a cop but is surprisingly willing to save a gang-banger's life.
It's refreshing because it would be all too easy and lazy to just roll with the cliches and this show deliberately flips them off at every opportunity.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
I didn't even place Riley's accent as notBritish until she appeared in the church in Chicago. She barely spoke more than 3 consecutive words before then.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
edited June 2015
Re: Will a thing I really liked about his story, that also made him seem less Whitebread mcCoptrope was
Episode maybe 6, 7? Midwayish.
That his beef with one of the gangbangers wasn't that Will had arrested him or something, but that Will had slept with his girlfriend.Which also suggests Will might still move in different circles than just hanging out with other cops at the cop bar doing cop things in their cop car? Cops.
For anyone interested, if you like the shared mind concept there's a book series called Old Man's War that does something similar. It's comparable to Starship Troopers. Highly recommend the first two books then reading nothing else further in the series.
I was reading one recap; when Max and Felix met up with Abraham
it was in a Holocaust memorial, but you don't ever see a wide shot. Abraham says he goes there when he has a big decision to make, Felix asks why he doesn't go to a more high profile memorial; he says the bigger one is used by homeless as a latrine, so it smells bad. The recapper thought that they were just in an alleyway. Like, why would an old Jewish man specifically go to an alley to make big decisions? It was abundantly clear that they were in a Holocaust memorial, but it wasn't expressly spelled out until much later.
Critics have a lot of stuff to watch, they don't always have time to actually sit down and comprehend what they're watching, so they often rely on visual shorthands. Kala's marrying someone she doesn't love, it must be an arranged marriage. There's a guy in a tracksuit at an Orthodox funeral, they must be Russians. Et cetera. This show is one giant slight of hand trick designed to baffle critics. Revenge for not talking up Speed Racer more? I DON'T KNOW!
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Started watching this tonight. Just finished episode 4 i think.
it's not bad. when i watched cloud atlas i was struck that the wachowskis wanted to push it in a direction that the book didn't particularly go in, and that direction is basically this show.
the acting + direction is workmanlike. the writing is workmanlike. the camera work is workmanlike and honestly a real missed opportunity for a show like this. the characters are not super compelling. it's not a particularly emotionally resonant show. it's just competent all around. it basically reminds me of a less exciting and better-written heroes season one. naveen andrews and donna bae do a predictably good job. the kid who plays the kenyan does a great job. tuppence middleton admirably fills her role of being pretty and shellshocked and bjork with the camera constantly zoomed right up on her face. the rest of the actors are basically okay.
i'll probably finish it off but i'm not super involved in it. frankie hated it. she walked out of the room and ironed clothes instead of watching it with me.
Started watching this tonight. Just finished episode 4 i think.
it's not bad. when i watched cloud atlas i was struck that the wachowskis wanted to push it in a direction that the book didn't particularly go in, and that direction is basically this show.
the acting + direction is workmanlike. the writing is workmanlike. the camera work is workmanlike and honestly a real missed opportunity for a show like this. the characters are not super compelling. it's not a particularly emotionally resonant show. it's just competent all around. it basically reminds me of a less exciting and better-written heroes season one. naveen andrews and donna bae do a predictably good job. the kid who plays the kenyan does a great job. tuppence middleton admirably fills her role of being pretty and shellshocked and bjork with the camera constantly zoomed right up on her face. the rest of the actors are basically okay.
i'll probably finish it off but i'm not super involved in it. frankie hated it. she walked out of the room and ironed clothes instead of watching it with me.
Man I loved the end of Episode 4. You say it's not particularly emotionally resonant, I'd say that depends on what resonates with you. I teared up on more than one occasion.
I'm firmly on the side that believes the projection /bait and switch stereotyping that kicks off the show is a choice made by the W's. The central conceit to who the sensates are is that they are humans who can feel a deeper connection to others than the rest of humanity. That they can see past the walls and preconceptions that we hold in our minds of those who are different from us.
That we learn more about the characters as the show goes on and crystallizes their motivations while they learn more about their sensate abilities only reinforces this device. Not everyone is going to get trapped by the same projection either - I caught onto Nomi, Will, and Lito very quickly, but missed the mark on Kala, Wolfgang, and Sun. My wife (who is an Asian immigrant) on the other hand connected to the "minority" characters right away, but stereotyped the Caucasian characters at first.
This is what leaves me to believe the show intended for the audience to be challenged.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Mmmmm....toasty.
0
jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
I'm firmly on the side that believes the projection /bait and switch stereotyping that kicks off the show is a choice made by the W's. The central conceit to who the sensates are is that they are humans who can feel a deeper connection to others than the rest of humanity. That they can see past the walls and preconceptions that we hold in our minds of those who are different from us.
That we learn more about the characters as the show goes on and crystallizes their motivations while they learn more about their sensate abilities only reinforces this device. Not everyone is going to get trapped by the same projection either - I caught onto Nomi, Will, and Lito very quickly, but missed the mark on Kala, Wolfgang, and Sun. My wife (who is an Asian immigrant) on the other hand connected to the "minority" characters right away, but stereotyped the Caucasian characters at first.
This is what leaves me to believe the show intended for the audience to be challenged.
I don't think I'm entirely convinced this was an intended effect, but it's definitely a neat idea.
And like,death of the author or something I guess?
For anyone interested, if you like the shared mind concept there's a book series called Old Man's War that does something similar. It's comparable to Starship Troopers. Highly recommend the first two books then reading nothing else further in the series.
Old Man's War is great and like Starship Troopers, but in in no way is either like Sense8...just...not.
As for the show itself: To Be Continued. The pacing issues lasted through the entire thing. The fairly interesting plot got left dangling hard since all 12 episodes were a setup for the 8 characters pretty much. Who are way better together than individually. Wolfgang and...er...Van Damme... had the only interesting solo plots, followed by Riley because as noted to wove them all together. Distant fourth was Sun. Everyone else was far better when out mind visiting with others or getting mind visited by one of them.
Which lead to the good bits. But it all came down to 'Season 2 or bust!'. We better be getting one.
For anyone interested, if you like the shared mind concept there's a book series called Old Man's War that does something similar. It's comparable to Starship Troopers. Highly recommend the first two books then reading nothing else further in the series.
Old Man's War is great and like Starship Troopers, but in in no way is either like Sense8...just...not.
As for the show itself: To Be Continued. The pacing issues lasted through the entire thing. The fairly interesting plot got left dangling hard since all 12 episodes were a setup for the 8 characters pretty much. Who are way better together than individually. Wolfgang and...er...Van Damme... had the only interesting solo plots, followed by Riley because as noted to wove them all together. Distant fourth was Sun. Everyone else was far better when out mind visiting with others or getting mind visited by one of them.
Which lead to the good bits. But it all came down to 'Season 2 or bust!'. We better be getting one.
Man, I loved Lito's plot. The interaction between him and Wolfgang was extremely satisfying. By contrast, Sun, while great, didn't really have much to do in her own plot and ended up being a kung fu vending machine for the greater part of the first season.
I also found Nomi's story to be terrifying,
though I'm glad it was resolved relatively quickly so she could be awesome as a support character. Still loved her and Amanita Nancy Drew-ing up the place.
I felt like Kala really didn't have anything interesting going on until quite late, and Will sorta got straddled with Plot Maintenance duties.
Lito: The interactions, yeah. Otherwise it was him plodding along until he got to the next bit where Wolfgang was needed. Which was pretty awesome and was setup by the plodding, but still could have been zoomed along more.
Nomi's story was a practice run for Riley, but why the hell did she stick around before she was restrained? She fell off a bike going 5 mph then just sits around after being warned and not leaving until she can't. Then she gets out of it (after the good bit when again they go mind hopping) which as you said happened quickly and then is just the groups hacker-on-demand. Who needs a trustworthy SECRET place and picks...her girlfriends mother. Amazing she didn't get captured again (but only because, again, the neat mind sharing).
Kala had the same issue- just leave! Say no! Wolfgang is over in Germany, hop on a plane. Instead- religious nuts.
Sun was the fight-on-demand, but fights are interesting vs hacking. But yes, as I said, her plot was fairly down there. But at least she couldn't solve hers by walking out a door.
Speaking of that: I thought her lawyer said her father had done everything he said he would and even had paperwork to get everything going. I mean, I know he did. So people have to know. Right?
Van Damme was lucky no one used a gun from farther than arms-reach, but that's standard TV tropes.
Oh and agreed on Will. But he got to do a lot of travelling to make up for it. Also set up for the end/season 2 I would assume.
can't "just leave." Her family is in India. Her job is in India. She has a culture that is telling her that she totally has to get married to this awesome guy. Wolfgang is amazing, and he's one of our main characters, but, you know, he's kinda a dick. He also murders dudes sometimes.
Meanwhile, Rajan is rich (through perfectly legitimate means, apparently), knows how to break into Bollywood dance numbers, and has a ton of other legitimately great qualities. Of course, smart money is on the skinny bitch him being actually in bed with the evil BPO conspiracy and somehow involved with his father's death, which would provide plenty of drama for next season, but Kala doesn't know that now. She's super bad at tropes.
So her leaving is hardly an easy thing to do. She'd have to give up everything for the chance that being with Wolfgang wouldn't be a complete disaster.
"You need to go marry that rad dude and forget about me because I am a fucking monster" flips the cliche romcom call-off-the-wedding-and-go-find-your-soulmate ending we were expecting right on its ear.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
Slow beginnings are definitely one of JMS's calling cards. He's also always had pacing issues.
But I'll put up with it for him and the Wachowski's getting together to make one of the most human(on an emotional level) things I have seen in a long time.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
What I really liked about the Kala plot is that I feel they were trying to juxtapose the loving LGBT relationships with this false hetero relationship.
Dracomicron - I like where you're going with the future plot speculation, but I think the story with Kala is better that Rajan is just legit the perfect guy for her, but in the end she didn't love him. He's progressive, respectful, and has a big heart but she can't reciprocate his feelings because she's in love with someone else. Although she's not homosexual, it ties in with other themes of the story that we can't choose who we love.
The Icelandic accent doesn't rally sound like Scandinavian accents at all. Swedish and Norwegian accents might be a little bit similar, but all the Nordic languages have different melodies (can't remember the actual linguistic term).
Also, she doesn't exactly have a thick accent, unlike all the Icelandic exchange students I run into here in Copenhagen (technically they learn Danish in school but most prefer English). Or I guess we can use Björk for another example.
That aside, and speaking of stereotypes,Riley's actress' name might be the new Benedict Cumberbatch. Tuppence Middleton, really?
Slow beginnings are definitely one of JMS's calling cards. He's also always had pacing issues.
But I'll put up with it for him and the Wachowski's getting together to make one of the most human(on an emotional level) things I have seen in a long time.
It's something I would not have considered before this show, but JMS and the Wachowski's make an excellent team. And there are a fantastic amount of human moments in the show.
The plotting is slow and uneven, but the show isn't about the central plot - at least right now. It is entirely driven by the characters, their problems and how they deal with them, and how they deal with being connected to seven other people. I would be less willing to say this if it wasn't for JMS and, to a lesser extent, the Wachowski's, but this has the potential to be a very important show. One I watch over and over because I get sucked into it. There are parts of almost every character I can identify with.
No, it's not there yet. But JMS has proven he can pull it off (Netflix, I think, is a far better environment for him than syndicated TV was...), and the Wachowski's can definitely drop in things that make you go "huh.", they just need to be... restrained? which JMS is perfectly capable of doing.
I've been listening to 4 Non Blondes constantly for several days now, because that scene resonated with me a lot in ways I can't really explain. 4 minutes of television gave me a permanent emotional connection with a song I had never (or, don't remember) hearing before.
What I really liked about the Kala plot is that I feel they were trying to juxtapose the loving LGBT relationships with this false hetero relationship.
Dracomicron - I like where you're going with the future plot speculation, but I think the story with Kala is better that Rajan is just legit the perfect guy for her, but in the end she didn't love him. He's progressive, respectful, and has a big heart but she can't reciprocate his feelings because she's in love with someone else. Although she's not homosexual, it ties in with other themes of the story that we can't choose who we love.
Don't get me wrong, I hope that I'm full of crap on this particular issue, because I love Rajan. I've just seen enough TV to know what the typical set-up for a second season bad is. That said, JMS and the Wachowskis also know what I know, and can easily avert it.
Babylon 5 did a good job of informing who late teenager me was.
In a lot of ways I can see this show informing me now into my late 30's. They're both about hope and humanity but I can see this being a much more nuanced and human version of that message.
It's grown up just as I have.
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Mostly just huntin' monsters.
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And as the average person watching, whatever! No biggie. But critics should be paying better attention than that. If they aren't they're doing a bad job.
Jeeeeeeez you guys know nothing about Germany, do you? Or Europe, at that. First of all, Germany is in Western Europe. Secondly, I know fewer people with slavic surnames who would identify as slavic than people with slavic surnames who wouldn't even think about it and are as potato-German as they come, and I know a lot of people with slavic surnames. Hell, I have a Polish surname myself, and I am German to the bone, don't know shit about Poland, don't speak a word of the language, and wouldn't even dream of identifying as Polish, just because one sixteenth of my family somewhere up the patrilineal branch of my ancestors left me this name.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
But he grew up in Berlin and seems generally German. And also refers to himself as such, but only later.
Edit: didn't see the post above before making this one. But to be clear I was not saying Wolfgang wasn't German, just pointing out a few of the things I felt might legitimately have led people to believe he wasn't. Also, I live in Denmark so I know about Europe thank you very much. Arguably though Eastern Europe can be as much a political as a geographic description, and Wolfgang did grow up in East Berlin. Though I agree he's not living in Eastern Europe by any definition today.
Edit 2: also, your post seems unnecessarily hostile. I am open to the possibility that that is just me reading too much into it,though. @Kashaar
I'm not ready to wade into something that starts of this hostile.
If i find the energy i'll be back.
I think you may be the one doin' all the projecting. You expect any criticism to be racist so that's what you see.
Exactly!
I don't know very much about Germany (except that I know that Germany is Western Europe, I've played my fair share of WWII strategy board games). But I've never been there! And I think most people (Americans at least) didn't or haven't either. Is it wrong for someone to not know everything about everywhere? This was a very global show and kudos to anyone with enough knowledge about ALL of those places to make the correct assumption in each of them. But I would imagine that most people projected early due to information, location, and character overload. Its what our brains do when information comes at us quickly and in large quantities.
Which is why it was genius. It gave the viewer just a small enough view of Wolfgang to make it feel like Eastern Europe or something based on wrong preconceived notions. Then once we've projected, it breaks the mold and you realize its in Germany and Wolfgang isn't just this tough heartless dude because look how he's dealing with Kaala. And voila, you've got a taste of what its like to be a Sense8 due to feeling like you just drilled down past a false exterior into the real inner self of the character. I think it accomplished exactly that with every single character over the course of the series.
if you don't feel you have the energy, whatever that means, then okay, that's fine
but I don't think I'm being unfair to ask you to question yourself if your reflexive response to diversity in a TV show is cynicism
It was the Eastern Orthodox Priest doing the ceremony. That is more of a visual marker than anything else.
The cross on the grave is why my brain straight to the Russian thing.
It isn't till later you really get he is just German not a German/Russian mix.
This is what I'm talking about with visual shorthand
Your brain jumped to a conclusion and filled in a blank
It was wrong, but it is a thing people do to varying extents
It doesn't make the character a stereotype
It doesn't mean the show relied on stereotypes until it filled in the characters later
It doesn't mean the show relied on betraying those stereotypes as a dramatic device to make a point to you, the viewer
It's just something you did because people do that, for good or for ill, they do it to varying extents
and some people do it so severely they project facts where there are no facts, or project an idea despite their being information that conflicts with it because it suits the narrative in their head better
like, if you pay attention when Riley speaks, she clearly doesn't have an English accent. You have to have a very good ear for accents to pick out that she very specifically has an Icelandic accent (I have a very good ear for accents, it didn't sound specifically Icelandic to me at first, just... Nordic?), but you don't have to have a good ear for accents to know it's not English. She's not like anyone else in the scenes she's in. Nobody has to say "Oh, Riley's from Iceland" for you to get she's speaking with an accent completely different from everyone else around her.
Yet, to some, she is "the British DJ", despite the fact that she's not British? Her storyline takes place in Britain, I guess. But it's not an element of her character, at all. And you basically have to ignore how the character talks and fill that in with something in your head to make that work.
Also, she doesn't exactly have a thick accent, unlike all the Icelandic exchange students I run into here in Copenhagen (technically they learn Danish in school but most prefer English). Or I guess we can use Björk for another example.
That aside, and speaking of stereotypes,Riley's actress' name might be the new Benedict Cumberbatch. Tuppence Middleton, really?
sure
that makes sense
the problem becomes using that memory as a foundation point to start filling details with made up stuff
especially when it conflicts with information presented in the show
that's what I'm talking about with projection
and I see both professional (well, as professional as critics on the internet are) critics and people just in online discussion in general doing this kind of thing
some are trying to argue that it's okay to do this if you've only watched like, one or two episodes
and i don't agree because like, for example, if you watch any episode with Kala in it and you come to the conclusion she's in an arranged marriage, including the first one
you're just making shit up in your head because your brain is going "If an Indian person is in a marriage circumstance they're unhappy with, it's an arranged marriage, because that's a thing I know about India, people do arranged marriages there and sometimes are unhappy about it."
except the show goes out of its way, repeatedly, to point out how this isn't the case and makes a point of contrasting Kala's circumstances with that of an arranged marriage
so if you're thinking that, you're at best misremembering and confusing details or at worst
just stereotyping and inventing details whole cloth because they fit a narrative projection in your head better.
If you are gonna keep specifically calling out my reasoning, then I'm gonna have to keep defending it?
Its Cognitive Bias and everyone does it constantly. Like literally all the time. It has to be done in almost every situation. Spaces have to be filled in and weight has to be placed on some information over others. Its hardly "wrong" when so much new information is coming at a viewer they are doing their best to categorize whatever they can. We've seen in this very thread how Wolfgang's origin is muddled (probably on purpose) and even you pointed out that Riley was in England and is a DJ. Some people will put more weight to those two facts (over an obscure accent they might not be able to pinpoint), then categorize her as that Punk British DJ.
This show expected you to do it and even made it hard not to do it. Then as they revealed more about the characters (often through the sense8 experience) the audience, too, was challenged on their cognitive biases and saw deeper into the characters.
You can't keep saying that the majority of the audience is doing something incorrect (even though we all do it), but its not the show's fault and the show runners also weren't smart enough to maybe even incorporate that very concept into the show's experience. Its like you are trying to say that you are incapable of projecting and just "got" the show right away, didn't miss any info, and got everything right about the characters in the first episode and anyone who did only watch one episode and thought there were stereotypes clearly hasn't conquered the universal and crucial cognitive bias.
edit: and you keep going back to the list I made previously, which was thrown together in like 3 minutes and an attempt to maybe come up with some basic information for why people thought the characters were stereotypical. If you want to attack actual stereotypes that are being thrown around from just the first episode, don't use my list as its basically a strawman.
It's refreshing because it would be all too easy and lazy to just roll with the cliches and this show deliberately flips them off at every opportunity.
ICELAND
Episode maybe 6, 7? Midwayish.
Well fuck me.
He has a very particular set of skills.
Want more.
like
it is basically The Matrix with psychics, if I had to nutshell the premise
but meanwhile
Bisexual Orgy!
Global Singalong to 4 Non Blondes' What's Going On
this show don't give a fuck
I was reading one recap; when Max and Felix met up with Abraham
Critics have a lot of stuff to watch, they don't always have time to actually sit down and comprehend what they're watching, so they often rely on visual shorthands. Kala's marrying someone she doesn't love, it must be an arranged marriage. There's a guy in a tracksuit at an Orthodox funeral, they must be Russians. Et cetera. This show is one giant slight of hand trick designed to baffle critics. Revenge for not talking up Speed Racer more? I DON'T KNOW!
it's not bad. when i watched cloud atlas i was struck that the wachowskis wanted to push it in a direction that the book didn't particularly go in, and that direction is basically this show.
the acting + direction is workmanlike. the writing is workmanlike. the camera work is workmanlike and honestly a real missed opportunity for a show like this. the characters are not super compelling. it's not a particularly emotionally resonant show. it's just competent all around. it basically reminds me of a less exciting and better-written heroes season one. naveen andrews and donna bae do a predictably good job. the kid who plays the kenyan does a great job. tuppence middleton admirably fills her role of being pretty and shellshocked and bjork with the camera constantly zoomed right up on her face. the rest of the actors are basically okay.
i'll probably finish it off but i'm not super involved in it. frankie hated it. she walked out of the room and ironed clothes instead of watching it with me.
Man I loved the end of Episode 4. You say it's not particularly emotionally resonant, I'd say that depends on what resonates with you. I teared up on more than one occasion.
That we learn more about the characters as the show goes on and crystallizes their motivations while they learn more about their sensate abilities only reinforces this device. Not everyone is going to get trapped by the same projection either - I caught onto Nomi, Will, and Lito very quickly, but missed the mark on Kala, Wolfgang, and Sun. My wife (who is an Asian immigrant) on the other hand connected to the "minority" characters right away, but stereotyped the Caucasian characters at first.
This is what leaves me to believe the show intended for the audience to be challenged.
Mmmmm....toasty.
I don't think I'm entirely convinced this was an intended effect, but it's definitely a neat idea.
And like,death of the author or something I guess?
Old Man's War is great and like Starship Troopers, but in in no way is either like Sense8...just...not.
As for the show itself: To Be Continued. The pacing issues lasted through the entire thing. The fairly interesting plot got left dangling hard since all 12 episodes were a setup for the 8 characters pretty much. Who are way better together than individually. Wolfgang and...er...Van Damme... had the only interesting solo plots, followed by Riley because as noted to wove them all together. Distant fourth was Sun. Everyone else was far better when out mind visiting with others or getting mind visited by one of them.
Which lead to the good bits. But it all came down to 'Season 2 or bust!'. We better be getting one.
Man, I loved Lito's plot. The interaction between him and Wolfgang was extremely satisfying. By contrast, Sun, while great, didn't really have much to do in her own plot and ended up being a kung fu vending machine for the greater part of the first season.
I also found Nomi's story to be terrifying,
I felt like Kala really didn't have anything interesting going on until quite late, and Will sorta got straddled with Plot Maintenance duties.
Nomi's story was a practice run for Riley, but why the hell did she stick around before she was restrained? She fell off a bike going 5 mph then just sits around after being warned and not leaving until she can't. Then she gets out of it (after the good bit when again they go mind hopping) which as you said happened quickly and then is just the groups hacker-on-demand. Who needs a trustworthy SECRET place and picks...her girlfriends mother. Amazing she didn't get captured again (but only because, again, the neat mind sharing).
Kala had the same issue- just leave! Say no! Wolfgang is over in Germany, hop on a plane. Instead- religious nuts.
Sun was the fight-on-demand, but fights are interesting vs hacking. But yes, as I said, her plot was fairly down there. But at least she couldn't solve hers by walking out a door.
Speaking of that: I thought her lawyer said her father had done everything he said he would and even had paperwork to get everything going. I mean, I know he did. So people have to know. Right?
Van Damme was lucky no one used a gun from farther than arms-reach, but that's standard TV tropes.
Oh and agreed on Will. But he got to do a lot of travelling to make up for it. Also set up for the end/season 2 I would assume.
Meanwhile, Rajan is rich (through perfectly legitimate means, apparently), knows how to break into Bollywood dance numbers, and has a ton of other legitimately great qualities. Of course, smart money is on the skinny bitch him being actually in bed with the evil BPO conspiracy and somehow involved with his father's death, which would provide plenty of drama for next season, but Kala doesn't know that now. She's super bad at tropes.
So her leaving is hardly an easy thing to do. She'd have to give up everything for the chance that being with Wolfgang wouldn't be a complete disaster.
But I'll put up with it for him and the Wachowski's getting together to make one of the most human(on an emotional level) things I have seen in a long time.
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Dracomicron - I like where you're going with the future plot speculation, but I think the story with Kala is better that Rajan is just legit the perfect guy for her, but in the end she didn't love him. He's progressive, respectful, and has a big heart but she can't reciprocate his feelings because she's in love with someone else. Although she's not homosexual, it ties in with other themes of the story that we can't choose who we love.
Mmmmm....toasty.
Prosody.
It's something I would not have considered before this show, but JMS and the Wachowski's make an excellent team. And there are a fantastic amount of human moments in the show.
The plotting is slow and uneven, but the show isn't about the central plot - at least right now. It is entirely driven by the characters, their problems and how they deal with them, and how they deal with being connected to seven other people. I would be less willing to say this if it wasn't for JMS and, to a lesser extent, the Wachowski's, but this has the potential to be a very important show. One I watch over and over because I get sucked into it. There are parts of almost every character I can identify with.
No, it's not there yet. But JMS has proven he can pull it off (Netflix, I think, is a far better environment for him than syndicated TV was...), and the Wachowski's can definitely drop in things that make you go "huh.", they just need to be... restrained? which JMS is perfectly capable of doing.
I've been listening to 4 Non Blondes constantly for several days now, because that scene resonated with me a lot in ways I can't really explain. 4 minutes of television gave me a permanent emotional connection with a song I had never (or, don't remember) hearing before.
Don't get me wrong, I hope that I'm full of crap on this particular issue, because I love Rajan. I've just seen enough TV to know what the typical set-up for a second season bad is. That said, JMS and the Wachowskis also know what I know, and can easily avert it.
In a lot of ways I can see this show informing me now into my late 30's. They're both about hope and humanity but I can see this being a much more nuanced and human version of that message.
It's grown up just as I have.
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