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The Modern Domestic Terrorism: Death In The Willamette

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regularRegistered User regular
edited October 2015 in Debate and/or Discourse
Nine people are dead after a gunman barged into the Emmanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC, killing them as they attended Bible study:
The shooting took place at about 9 p.m. ET on Wednesday. Charleston Police released photos of the suspect during a news conference that started at 6 a.m. ET Thursday, and said he left the scene in a black four door sedan. He is described as "armed and dangerous."

Church members were shot as they took part in shot at bible study, the NAACP said. Dot Scott, president of the Charleston NAACP, said a female survivor told family members that the gunman initially sat down in the church for a while before opening fire, the Post and Courier reported. Scott added that the gunman reportedly told the woman he was letting her live so she could tell others what happened.
Among the dead was the state senator who was pastor of the church, Democrat Clementa Pinckney, said South Carolina House Minority Leader Todd Rutherford, the Associated Press reported. Pinckney, 41, was married with two children and had served in the state Senate since 2000, according to online biographies.

While officials are declaring the act a hate crime, that really doesn't go far enough. This was a blatant act of domestic terrorism. But considering that the suspect is a 21 year old white man:


We have already begun seeing the usual refrain of how we are looking at the actions of a "lone wolf" whose mindset and intent are unknowable. From the statement by SC Governor Nikki Hailey:
While we do not yet know all of the details, we do know that we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another.

(Emphasis mine.)

It saddens me to read about such a horrifying act committed so openly and coldly. And it really infuriates me to hear the arguments that this is somehow an incomprehensible act. Considering that he intentionally left a survivor to tell people about what happened, we have a perfectly serviceable term for this act.

This was an act of domestic terrorism. And if you don't understand why someone would feel the need to terrorize the black community, the history of the US has many, many events that help explain why, to this day.

In closing, here is the response from the head of the NAACP:
The NAACP was founded to fight against racial hatred and we are outraged that 106 years later, we are faced today with another mass hate crime. Our heartfelt prayers and soul-deep condolences go out to the families and community of the victims at Charleston’s historic Emanuel AME Church. The senselessly slain parishioners were in a church for Wednesday night bible study. There is no greater coward than a criminal who enters a house of God and slaughters innocent people engaged in the study of scripture. Today I mourn as an AME minister, as a student and teacher of scripture, as well as a member of the NAACP.

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Posts

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another.

    Flying over the SC State House:
    RTR2WFA7.jpg?1434615874

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue regular Registered User regular
    And Fox News has decided this is an attack on Christians, not blacks. And that we need to arm the Clergy.
    Elizabeth Hasselback: A horrifying attack on faith killing 9 people, including a famed pastor. So, if we're not safe in our own churches, then where are we safe?
    Steve Doocy: Joining us right now is Senior Pastor of Hope Christian Church, Bishop E.W. Jackson. Good morning.

    Jackson: Good morning.

    Doocy: Your thoughts this morning?

    Jackson: Well, first of all, I'm pastor of the Fall Church in Chesapeake, Virginia, but....We had a prayer vigil this morning at 6am, praying for the people of Charleston, South Carolina. We are urging people, wait for the facts, don't jump to conclusions. But, I have to tell you that I am deeply concerned this gunman chose to go into a church, because there does seem to be a rising hostility against Christians across this country because of our biblical views. And, I just think it's something we have to be aware of and not create an atmosphere where people take out their violent intentions against Christians. And I would mention one other thing very quickly and that is, I would urge pastors and men in these churches to prepare to defend themselves. It's sad, but I think that we've got to arm ourselves. At least have some people in the church who are prepared to defend the church when women and children are attacked. (Fox News hosts mumbling in agreement)

    Brian Kilmeade: Do you think that is something that would fly inside a church? To have a pastor with a gun? To have security with a gun?

    E.W. Jackson: Look, I'm a pastor. (Hasselbeck voicing her approval) If someone comes into hurt my church members I have an absolute obligation to defend them, to protect them. (Doocy interrupts with "of course"). Look, 9 people dead, I think that people understand that it's sad but this is the world we live in.

    Brian Kilmeade: Hey, I understand it. I'm just, from a pastor perspective, I want to know if that's something you would do.

    E.W. Jackson: Well, I'm gonna, as a pastor, it's absolutely something I would do to protect the people whom God has given me charge over.

    Elizabeth Hasselbeck: You protect and shepherd your flock in anyway that you can, in faith and in practicality.

    E.W. Jackson: Amen.

    [...]

    Steve Doocy: Uhhh, it was released earlier—and extraordinarily they called it a hate crime—uhhh, and some look at it, because it was a white guy, apparently, and a black church, uhh, but you made a great point just a moment ago about the hostility towards Christians, so—and it was a church! So, maybe that's what their talking about. They haven't explained it to us.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob regular Registered User regular
    I think I speak for all of us when I say 'Fuck Fox News'.

    There's an argument to be made that calling this a hate crime or domestic terrorism is a little premature - which I disagree with, but I could understand why someone might take that position - but again - fuck Fox News.

    But I can understand why someone might urge caution until details of what he said to the lady are released or his manifesto / Facebook history / etc is found.

    Still, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

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  • AbsalonAbsalon regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    On MSNBC someone said something to the effect of "We need to catch him before he hurts a police officer".

    The enduring, casual sociopathy and infantile awkwardness of the bourgeoisie.

    Absalon on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    The FBI has an official suspect:
    The FBI on Thursday morning confirmed that 21-year-old Dylann Roof of the Columbia area is suspected of fatally shooting nine people attending a Bible study the night before during what authorities labeled as a hate crime at a historically black church in downtown Charleston.

    Edit: The link has gone stale, so I'm removing it.

    And if you thought that his jacket was more than just fashion:
    On his Facebook page, a photograph shows Roof staring blankly at the camera with a sunken forest in the background. On his jacket are two flags: one flown in South Africa during apartheid, a period of racial segregation, and one from Rhodesia, an area of Africa now known as Zimbabwe.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    But I can understand why someone might urge caution until details of what he said to the lady are released or his manifesto / Facebook history / etc is found.

    Considering that picture above, I think that's been answered.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    My girlfriend's family was freaking out about "a shooting" because we're in South Carolina on a work assignment.

    As soon as I heard that there were multiple victims tho I had a feeling we didn't have to be scared (on account of being super white).

    Boy howdy I sure love being right.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue regular Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    But I can understand why someone might urge caution until details of what he said to the lady are released or his manifesto / Facebook history / etc is found.

    Considering that picture above, I think that's been answered.

    One of the witnesses at the scene also says that he told her
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

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  • LanzLanz regular Registered User regular
    reports are he's been caught

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    But I can understand why someone might urge caution until details of what he said to the lady are released or his manifesto / Facebook history / etc is found.

    Considering that picture above, I think that's been answered.

    One of the witnesses at the scene also says that he told her
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

    Yep, definitely sounds like he was acting on standard anti-Christian bigotry there.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    reports are he's been caught

    And caught alive, at that.

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  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    Listening to the media this morning before the suspect had even been identified and they were already talking about the trial.

    I guess there's just and underlying assumption that white criminals get arrested, not shot.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott regular Registered User regular
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

  • quovadis13quovadis13 regular Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    reports are he's been caught

    And caught alive, at that.

    I mean, he's an armed and dangerous white man, not an unarmed black person after all.

  • zagdrobzagdrob regular Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    I'd hesitate, but judging by the picture AngelHedgie posted and the comments about 'taking over country' and 'have to go' it sure looks like he's political.

    I usually assume mass murderers will commit suicide or get arrested and end up on trial regardless of race.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    Why shouldn't we call it terrorism? There's a long, ignoble history throughout the US of the use of violence on black Americans in order to intimidate and cow them. That's terrorism. Look at the words of the woman he allowed to survive - if he had been of Middle East origin, and she had been white, I don't think anyone would argue that wasn't terrorism.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

    This is textbook terrorism.

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  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    Look guys its too soon to talk about the history of american racism, let tempers calm down and situations settle down.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    • Charleston church shooting suspect Dylann Roof has been taken into custody in North Carolina, a senior law enforcement official briefed on the investigation told CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

    • Roof, 21, of Lexington, South Carolina, is the suspect in Wednesday's deadly shooting at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, city police said Thursday.

    • Witnesses say the suspect stood up and said he was there "to shoot black people," a law enforcement official said. The shooter is also thought to have used a handgun, according to the official.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/index.html

  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist rugged, weathered Registered User regular
    Yes, at least until January of 2017.

  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    Yes, at least until January of 2017.

    Far too soon to discuss racial problems in america, we'll have to wait till at least january 2021, possibly later if there is another incident that inflames this country, we don't want to be hasty.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
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  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular

    I'm glad that this is getting some play with this story because god damn that's awful.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Look guys its too soon to talk about the history of american racism, let tempers calm down and situations settle down.

    But that shouldn't stop us from saying that this wouldn't have happened if everyone in the church had been packing heat.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • DivideByZeroDivideByZero Social Justice Blackguard Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes, at least until January of 2017.

    Far too soon to discuss racial problems in america, we'll have to wait till at least january 2021, possibly later if there is another incident that inflames this country, we don't want to be hasty.

    The more you talk about this so-called "problem" the harder it becomes for me to ignore it. That makes you the real racist.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam regular Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    How shielded or in a vacuum bubble world does one have to be to conclude; "Whelp, this obviously is not terrorism", When this piece of dog shit was spewing; "I have to kill you all. You rape our women I have to take back Our country" in a historically black church, when the act blatantly was domestic terrorism?

    Nice bubble world you've got there McDermott.

  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes, at least until January of 2017.

    Far too soon to discuss racial problems in america, we'll have to wait till at least january 2021, possibly later if there is another incident that inflames this country, we don't want to be hasty.

    The more you talk about this so-called "problem" the harder it becomes for me to ignore it. That makes you the real racist.

    Damn it you got me. I'm MELTING!!!

    One thing I'm sad about and this is an actual "both sides" issue is that right now everyone is hoping that this shit bird is not associated with their political team, when it really doesn't matter if he voted r or d, dude was a racist people shit.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Look guys its too soon to talk about the history of american racism, let tempers calm down and situations settle down.

    But that shouldn't stop us from saying that this wouldn't have happened if everyone in the church had been packing heat.

    Or that this was an attack on religious beliefs.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2015

    To be quite honest, I...don't know which one would be more appropriate.

    I guess just taking the damn thing down and burning it would be MOST appropriate.
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    How shielded or in a vacuum bubble world does one have to be to conclude; "Whelp, this obviously is not terrorism", When this piece of dog shit was spewing; "I have to kill you all. You rape our women I have to take back Our country" in a historically black church, when the act blatantly was domestic terrorism?

    Nice bubble world you've got there McDermott.

    I think the point McDermott's making is that it's not clear there is a political objective vs. someone hating black people enough to try to kill a bunch of them. Considering this happened just a few hours ago, it's not unreasonable to urge caution rather than speculation on motives.

    After the Boston Bombing, I recall being certain that - because it was Boston and on Tax Day it was some Tea-Partyish right wing attack. Clearly that was wrong, but it's not unreasonable to wait to make conclusions before any real details come out.

    Also, McDermott didn't say 'obviously not terrorism', he said he would hesitate to call it terrorism.

    zagdrob on
  • mcdermottmcdermott regular Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

    This is textbook terrorism.

    Still not seeing a real "goal." Have to go? Go where? I'm seeing no real point to the attack other than the deaths of the victims. I'm seeing no real further goal for after the attack, except perhaps to inspire more. He's not trying to get blacks to stay in their schools or drink from their fountains through fear. He's just killing them.

    If I had to use a loaded term to describe it, genocide seems more applicable. He simply lacks the capacity to carry it out himself.

    I'm just wary of the overuse of the word terrorism.

  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    He intended on terrorizing the black community by killing members of their community in a church. That's fucking terrorism mcdermott. It's not stretching the word to mean something it isn't. He literally terrorized the black community in South Carolina.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist rugged, weathered Registered User regular
    Of course terrorism is usually instituted by an organization with an agenda such as Al Qaida or ISIS/ISIL or the KKK. Until we find the shooter's manifesto claiming allegiance to some group we can't call it terrorism.

  • mcdermottmcdermott regular Registered User regular
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    How shielded or in a vacuum bubble world does one have to be to conclude; "Whelp, this obviously is not terrorism", When this piece of dog shit was spewing; "I have to kill you all. You rape our women I have to take back Our country" in a historically black church, when the act blatantly was domestic terrorism?

    Nice bubble world you've got there McDermott.

    No, I've picked up a dictionary and read the definition of terrorism, and it's not clear this fits.

    It's mass murder, fueled by hatred, and motivated specifically by race.

    But that is /not/ the definition of terrorism.

    I don't live in a bubble, so kindly go goose yourself.

    frandelgearslip
  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam regular Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Ticaldfjam was warned for this.
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    How shielded or in a vacuum bubble world does one have to be to conclude; "Whelp, this obviously is not terrorism", When this piece of dog shit was spewing; "I have to kill you all. You rape our women I have to take back Our country" in a historically black church, when the act blatantly was domestic terrorism?

    Nice bubble world you've got there McDermott.

    No, I've picked up a dictionary and read the definition of terrorism, and it's not clear this fits.

    It's mass murder, fueled by hatred, and motivated specifically by race.

    But that is /not/ the definition of terrorism.

    I don't live in a bubble, so kindly go goose yourself.

    I'm glad you were there in Charleston, at the scene of the crime, to come to the conclusion , that this definitely was not "Domestic Terrorism", prior to the actually Law Enforcement authorities on hand.

    So, about kindly goosing yourself?

    Elki on
  • mcdermottmcdermott regular Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    He intended on terrorizing the black community by killing members of their community in a church. That's fucking terrorism mcdermott. It's not stretching the word to mean something it isn't. He literally terrorized the black community in South Carolina.

    Unless that fear is used to pursue a goal, it is not terrorism.

    If that goal is merely "kill all the blacks," that's genocide.

    Sorry if I'm a bit pedantic on the meaning of the word. I wasted a year and a half of my life and lost friends because people in this country went terrorism-crazy, so it's kind of a thing to me.

    DisruptedCapitalist
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

    This is textbook terrorism.

    Still not seeing a real "goal." Have to go? Go where? I'm seeing no real point to the attack other than the deaths of the victims. I'm seeing no real further goal for after the attack, except perhaps to inspire more. He's not trying to get blacks to stay in their schools or drink from their fountains through fear. He's just killing them.

    If I had to use a loaded term to describe it, genocide seems more applicable. He simply lacks the capacity to carry it out himself.

    I'm just wary of the overuse of the word terrorism.

    Yes, he's killing them - because of their race. If you don't see that as an act of terror, then I would really recommend reading up on the history of black Americans.

    Again, if we swapped around the races of the people involved to a more expected configuration, I doubt we would be having this discussion.

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  • zagdrobzagdrob regular Registered User regular
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    mcdermottkaortiTL DR
  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    This is pedantry that's just ridiculous man, his goal was clearly to inspire other incidents like this. This is the KKK's usual method of intimidation, I mean in america killing black people in a church is a time honored tradition of our racists to make sure to keep the black community in line.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • mcdermottmcdermott regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    mcdermott was warned for this.
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    How shielded or in a vacuum bubble world does one have to be to conclude; "Whelp, this obviously is not terrorism", When this piece of dog shit was spewing; "I have to kill you all. You rape our women I have to take back Our country" in a historically black church, when the act blatantly was domestic terrorism?

    Nice bubble world you've got there McDermott.

    No, I've picked up a dictionary and read the definition of terrorism, and it's not clear this fits.

    It's mass murder, fueled by hatred, and motivated specifically by race.

    But that is /not/ the definition of terrorism.

    I don't live in a bubble, so kindly go goose yourself.

    I'm glad you were there in Charleston, at the scene of the crime, to come to the conclusion , that this definitely was not "Domestic Terrorism", prior to the actually Law Enforcement authorities on hand.

    So, about kindly goosing yourself?

    Fuck right off.

    Elki on
  • wazillawazilla regular Registered User regular
    He specifically let at least one person live so they would go and spread the story in their community. That is not compatible with the goal of genocide.

    It is compatible with the goal of terrorism.

    I thought that was really super duper clear.

    Psn:wazukki
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