I'm sure you'll notice no calls from Fox News for the white community in South Carolina to decry this level of violence from this official. Almost like they have an agenda when they ask muslims or african americans to do the same.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Usual suspects are out already decrying that no control would work and how dare we even talk about it, its too soon. It's disgusting how quick they mobilize after another gun tragedy, I guess its all the experience as of late.
The only right and proper response is, "It's never too soon, because it's always too late."
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Even if the answe was mental illness you'd have to answer why one demographic seems to succumb to it disproportionately (assuming this is true). What cultural factors cause that?
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Even if the answe was mental illness you'd have to answer why one demographic seems to succumb to it disproportionately (assuming this is true). What cultural factors cause that?
Hahahah oh you tell a funny joke mcdermott. This is an isolated incident, not an indication of a greater cultural problem, didn't you hear? The shooter was white.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Desperate inferiority.
The racism side, at least.
I've never been able to find the story again and I wish I'd bookmarked it, it was told by the son of the man who originally related the story, but the gist was, late 30s, in Alabama, a black couple and their son buy a derelict farm, and set about making it work again. The neighboring white farmer who's been there all along, and suffered through the depression, burns their fields and kills their livestock while they're in town buying supplies. They come back to the farm, find it destroyed, pack their belongings and leave. And the kid (father of the guy telling the story) asks his father, why'd they do that? Why'd the neighbor wreck everything, why'd they just leave? And the father answers, a man's got to feel superior to something. And what were they going to do, rebuild and let it happen again?
Racism sprouts from helplessness and hopelessness and a desperate desire to feel like they're better than something, anything.
As for straight up serial killers and mass murderers, there's just something wrong with them. They're not wired right. It's not insanity, it's just internally being broken.
My pet theory is that white men, always at the top of the Western social pyramid, are becoming frequently threatened by the fact that they're not as top dog anymore. Their wives can leave them, take their kids, their cushy jobs are being taken over by qualified "foreigners". Homosexuals are denigrating their masculinity, and the banks are run by sinister Jews/Chinese/Arabs and foreclosing their homes. Add a dash of psychopathy, and a community of likeminded white guys who feel the same (but most are content to just complain) and you got the makings of a mass murderer.
Mind you, I'm pulling this straight out of my ass, and am most certainly wrong.
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Desperate inferiority.
The racism side, at least.
I've never been able to find the story again and I wish I'd bookmarked it, it was told by the son of the man who originally related the story, but the gist was, late 30s, in Alabama, a black couple and their son buy a derelict farm, and set about making it work again. The neighboring white farmer who's been there all along, and suffered through the depression, burns their fields and kills their livestock while they're in town buying supplies. They come back to the farm, find it destroyed, pack their belongings and leave. And the kid (father of the guy telling the story) asks his father, why'd they do that? Why'd the neighbor wreck everything, why'd they just leave? And the father answers, a man's got to feel superior to something. And what were they going to do, rebuild and let it happen again?
Racism sprouts from helplessness and hopelessness and a desperate desire to feel like they're better than something, anything.
As for straight up serial killers, there's just something wrong with them. They're not wired right. It's not insanity, it's just internally being broken.
Well, desperate inferiority is one aspect. But it's not just poor white folks who are racist. Historically, many of the wealthiest people in society were also the most racist. That might be another manifestation of desperate inferiority (where any narrowing of the 'superiority gap' is viewed as a loss of position), but racism isn't that simple.
Serial killers aren't that simple either. I mean, yes, you've got the 'Criminal Minds' serial killers who are just ill and broken people. They do exist, but killers can still be created by their environment. You can have say, groups within ISIS, the Nazi Party, or the KKK, where individually each member is a generally rational and mentally competent individual, but the group as a whole fosters conditions that make killing (or other horrendous acts) the rational choice.
This guy? Who knows at this point. We haven't seen much of him prior to his shooting last night, and while there are some indications (the flags on his jacket, the CSA license plate) neither of those are exceptionally out of the ordinary. Just normal terrible, so to speak...but we'll see a lot more over the next few days and I bet we find someone who may not be as organized and competent, but basically had a similar mindset to Breivik.
My pet theory is that white men, always at the top of the Western social pyramid, are becoming frequently threatened by the fact that they're not as top dog anymore. Their wives can leave them, take their kids, their cushy jobs are being taken over by qualified "foreigners". Homosexuals are denigrating their masculinity, and the banks are run by sinister Jews/Chinese/Arabs and foreclosing their homes. Add a dash of psychopathy, and a community of likeminded white guys who feel the same (but most are content to just complain) and you got the makings of a mass murderer.
Mind you, I'm pulling this straight out of my ass, and am most certainly wrong.
You forgot where we worked for ours where as they were handed everything through affirmative action and the like.
TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
So. I've always known Fox was full of it.
But this is a new level from them.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
edited June 2015
The Boston Marathon Bombing was terrorism perpetrated by people who were mentally ill.
This is the same. Someone can be a terrorist, racist, and mentally ill. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are more likely often intwertwined, imo.
I think mentally Ill for this guy is giving him an out he doesn't deserve. I mean to an extent everyone who opens fire on innocent people has a mental illness. But I don't think this guy is crazy like a guy who think his left arm is wrong and wants to lop it off is crazy. He's nuts in a way that values one group of humans less than another and he deserves to rot in a cell until he dies full of hate.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Desperate inferiority.
The racism side, at least.
I've never been able to find the story again and I wish I'd bookmarked it, it was told by the son of the man who originally related the story, but the gist was, late 30s, in Alabama, a black couple and their son buy a derelict farm, and set about making it work again. The neighboring white farmer who's been there all along, and suffered through the depression, burns their fields and kills their livestock while they're in town buying supplies. They come back to the farm, find it destroyed, pack their belongings and leave. And the kid (father of the guy telling the story) asks his father, why'd they do that? Why'd the neighbor wreck everything, why'd they just leave? And the father answers, a man's got to feel superior to something. And what were they going to do, rebuild and let it happen again?
Racism sprouts from helplessness and hopelessness and a desperate desire to feel like they're better than something, anything.
As for straight up serial killers, there's just something wrong with them. They're not wired right. It's not insanity, it's just internally being broken.
Well, desperate inferiority is one aspect. But it's not just poor white folks who are racist. Historically, many of the wealthiest people in society were also the most racist. That might be another manifestation of desperate inferiority (where any narrowing of the 'superiority gap' is viewed as a loss of position), but racism isn't that simple.
Serial killers aren't that simple either. I mean, yes, you've got the 'Criminal Minds' serial killers who are just ill and broken people. They do exist, but killers can still be created by their environment. You can have say, groups within ISIS, the Nazi Party, or the KKK, where individually each member is a generally rational and mentally competent individual, but the group as a whole fosters conditions that make killing (or other horrendous acts) the rational choice.
This guy? Who knows at this point. We haven't seen much of him prior to his shooting last night, and while there are some indications (the flags on his jacket, the CSA license plate) neither of those are exceptionally out of the ordinary. Just normal terrible, so to speak...but we'll see a lot more over the next few days and I bet we find someone who may not be as organized and competent, but basically had a similar mindset to Breivik.
Man, rich people are some of the most insecure individuals on Earth. Everything is a challenge to their superiority.
Nazis, ISIS, KKK, they're all killing for a reason, there's something achievable by the killing they're doing. There's a goal. They might even enjoy the killing, but it's enjoyment in getting closer to that goal. I'm talking Bundy-style serial killers, people who just kill. Ted Bundy killed because he needed to kill. It served no purpose other than fulfilling his desire to kill.
If we're going to share theories behind these tragedies, here's mine:
There's a concept in sociology called anomie, which was coined to describe the disconnect of the individual from the larger community in the wake of industrialization. The idea is that when you don't grow up in a small and tight-knit community, under the supervision and influence of all of these people who are important to you, you become adrift and alienated and struggle to find a sense of meaning and identity.
I think some of these mass shooters are the product of a new form of anomie present in an age where the last real links of socialization are worn down further (imagine both parents working so much that they are rarely able to interface with their child or they simply never learn how to do it), and a bunch of crazy bullshit on the internet takes over and fills the void for people who feel extremely alienated from the rest of society.
It becomes a lot easier for hate groups or groups preaching terrible ideologies to draw individuals into their causes when those individuals are already desperate for a cause or a sense of belonging. There's no real community that a lot of us are raised in anymore, and so many people are really struggling to build an identity for themselves into their early adolescence. This sense of disconnect also makes it really easy to try to find a scapegoat for why you feel so adrift. There's been a lot written recently that pushes this as the reason why so many European youths have decided to run away and join ISIS. It's deplorable, but we live in a clockwork society that runs on putting people into all these stressful, isolated situations and expecting them to spend so much of their time working. It's easy to see how adolescents can get lost in that situation.
It outs me as a fierce structuralist, but this is also part of the reason why I don't buy into the "mental illness" idea in the majority of these situations. Most of these people are 'fine' or 'normal' or undetectable until they decide not to be. You can't screen people for a "mental illness" if it's something they've already chosen to hide; I find it more to be a symptom of greater problems in the social order at large, and each time events like this happen it becomes clear that nothing is going to fix those problems. The solutions would require huge amounts of government intervention and social spending; the whole thing would make gun control look like an easy alternative.
On a somewhat related note, I'd love to see what would happen if we raised the age of gun ownership to 25 or something. We know that the early 20s and late teens are extremely volatile years for psychological development, and the lion's share of the random mass shootings we've seen in the last two decades have been perpetrated by young people.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
The Boston Marathon Bombing was terrorism perpetrated by people who were mentally ill.
This is the same. Someone can be a terrorist, racist, and mentally ill. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are more likely often intwertwined, imo.
Do you have a source for this? Something more substantial than "only a mentally ill person could have done this"?
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
The Boston Marathon Bombing was terrorism perpetrated by people who were mentally ill.
This is the same. Someone can be a terrorist, racist, and mentally ill. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are more likely often intwertwined, imo.
Do you have a source for this? Something more substantial than "only a mentally ill person could have done this"?
The Boston Marathon Bombing was terrorism perpetrated by people who were mentally ill.
This is the same. Someone can be a terrorist, racist, and mentally ill. They are not mutually exclusive.
That's definitely true, but they also don't have to exist together.
A lot is going to depend on how you define mentally ill, of course.
This guy is probably all three, but a perfectly rational person could see terrorism as an effective way of bringing about political change. They are still a terrorist, even if they aren't mentally ill. Similarly, racism isn't a mental illness - although there is a reasonable argument that it SHOULD be.
He was probably irreparably broken, and don't think I'm at all trying to rationalize or justify his behavior, but perfectly healthy people have done some awful terrible things as a result of their environment.
As another note, people have pretty much been horrible as long as there have been people - they didn't suddenly become more horrible because of industrialization or because mom and dad both worked. Cults existed before the internet and before mass media. Groups of people got together and did horrible things to other groups of people as far back as we've got history. Hell, monkeys are known to do some of those things.
All that's old is new again, and twenty years ago it was Doom that cause Columbine, and before that you had David Koresh or Charles Manson or anarchists, or...on and on.
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Having an extremely offensive personal agenda you're willing to kill someone over doesn't necessarily make you mentally ill. Guarantee his defense in court will be insanity though.
"Mental Illness" always feels like a shield in these situations; something to take the heat away from lax gun laws and the presence of hateful ideologies in our society. It's also vague enough that politicians can just not do anything about it and point their fingers at god knows what whenever something like this happens.
Actually attempting to fix "mental illness" would require huge amounts of increased public spending, and trying to fix it for these young people would likely also mean an influx of cash into schools for expanded counseling services, and god knows none of that is going to happen. And then even if it did, how many of these people would avoid optional services to begin with? It's just such a hollow argument to me.
Yeah to me saying he's mentally ill is like saying everyone dies of Natural causes. I mean you got your throat cut, so you bled out, and naturally died, bam natural causes. This guy killed 9 people, people don't normally do that, hence he's mentally ill, we can drill beyond that.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.
I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.
And no, the answer is not mental illness.
Purely idle speculation, but I wonder if the fact that white men aren't generally scrutinized as heavily by law enforcement and the like allows them to fly under the radar longer, and actually follow through on these kinds of things. Whereas a minority actor would be more likely to get arrested at the first sign of suspicion and rarely make it that far.
This is obviously assuming that the number of psychotic mass murders are roughly consistent across all races.
"Mental Illness" always feels like a shield in these situations; something to take the heat away from lax gun laws and the presence of hateful ideologies in our society. It's also vague enough that politicians can just not do anything about it and point their fingers at god knows what whenever something like this happens.
Actually attempting to fix "mental illness" would require huge amounts of increased public spending, and trying to fix it for these young people would likely also mean an influx of cash into schools for expanded counseling services, and god knows none of that is going to happen. And then even if it did, how many of these people would avoid optional services to begin with? It's just such a hollow argument to me.
Yeah, if they really believed that America would have had a huge investment in mental health care.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
"Mental Illness" always feels like a shield in these situations; something to take the heat away from lax gun laws and the presence of hateful ideologies in our society. It's also vague enough that politicians can just not do anything about it and point their fingers at god knows what whenever something like this happens.
Actually attempting to fix "mental illness" would require huge amounts of increased public spending, and trying to fix it for these young people would likely also mean an influx of cash into schools for expanded counseling services, and god knows none of that is going to happen. And then even if it did, how many of these people would avoid optional services to begin with? It's just such a hollow argument to me.
Yeah, if they really believed that America would have had a huge investment in mental health care.
"Mental Illness" is looked upon with almost the same sad sympathy a birth defect is. Oooooh... he was mentally ill. What could anyone have done, ya know?
It's interesting that so many of these mass-shooters have been decidedly middle class, have had presence on various internet hate or conspiracy theory communities, and have occasionally openly made pop cultural references in their acts.
I am kind of expecting that we'll find this guy's reddit or stormfront or whatever online profiles pretty soon.
I think we can agree that there are probably dozens of secondary causes we can blame for this guy's behavior. The media he consumes, his parents and friends, the websites he goes to, etc.
The fact that he chose this church, on this day, traveled to it, and sat there for an hour before he started killing people indicates premeditation and organization. This wasn't impulsive, it was organized. He made a rational and informed choice to follow through with this.
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that both are domestic terrorism cases.
The other part of mental illness is that it can mean basically anything. You could call anyone who has had problems with depression or anxiety or even their attention span "mentally ill" and technically be correct.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that both are domestic terrorism cases.
by the end, yes
but initial reactions were much less agreed upon
the conservative media was claiming foreign terrorism and blaming islam
the liberal media was claiming mental illness and caution on blame
Discussion of mental illness after these events is less about attempting to understand what happened and more about safely cordoning off distressing behavior to a group we can easily malign.
Having an extremely offensive personal agenda you're willing to kill someone over doesn't necessarily make you mentally ill. Guarantee his defense in court will be insanity though.
Well, there's not really any other defense. Unless we find his older brother made him do it, a lawyer would be stupid to go with anything else.
Since they will almost certainly seek the death penalty a plea won't be on the table either.
Discussion of mental illness after these events is less about attempting to understand what happened and more about safely cordoning off distressing behavior to a group we can easily malign.
That's a bingo. Especially when it's a white male shooter who was a huge racist. It's easier to call him mentally ill and write him off, just like Sandy Hook.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Discussion of mental illness after these events is less about attempting to understand what happened and more about safely cordoning off distressing behavior to a group we can easily malign.
The media will find it too distasteful to face the fact that it was just a guy who was so scorchingly racist he was simply willing to go murder a lot of black people. That's an ugly narrative to cover 24 hours a day.
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
No dude, Boston was 'Tax day, in Boston'. The speculation was Tea Party / right wing extremists.
We were wrong, but that was the speculation.
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mojojoeoA block off the park, living the dream.Registered Userregular
Discussion of mental illness after these events is less about attempting to understand what happened and more about safely cordoning off distressing behavior to a group we can easily malign.
The media will find it too distasteful to face the fact that it was just a guy who was so scorchingly racist he was simply willing to go murder a lot of black people. That's an ugly narrative to cover 24 hours a day.
Do sane people go on murder sprees though? regardless of reason?
Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
Discussion of mental illness after these events is less about attempting to understand what happened and more about safely cordoning off distressing behavior to a group we can easily malign.
That's a bingo. Especially when it's a white male shooter who was a huge racist. It's easier to call him mentally ill and write him off, just like Sandy Hook.
Except the Sandy Hook guy was clearly nuts, and not motivated by any particular political ideology. This guy clearly was motivated by racism. Please don't conflate the two.
Having an extremely offensive personal agenda you're willing to kill someone over doesn't necessarily make you mentally ill. Guarantee his defense in court will be insanity though.
Well, there's not really any other defense. Unless we find his older brother made him do it, a lawyer would be stupid to go with anything else.
Since they will almost certainly seek the death penalty a plea won't be on the table either.
I know, there's literally no other feasible defense here. He went so far out of his way to get there, and sat around for an hour before pulling the trigger. It's premeditated, it's targeted, it's utterly indefensible outside of insanity. Hopefully the already emerging history of apparent racism is enough to take care of that.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
The reason "maybe he was mentally ill" is being brought up is to be dismissive about the very real, very high probability that this guy is a huge racist, and nobody wants to have to confront the fact that hate crimes still occur in 2015. In fact, some elected people's jobs practically require that they downplay racism.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
No dude, Boston was 'Tax day, in Boston'. The speculation was Tea Party / right wing extremists.
We were wrong, but that was the speculation.
That was until there were suspects and pictures to make it obvious these weren't white american males doing it
Then it went to caution on blaming islamic terrorism and mental illness.
edit: granted, that was a much longer developing story with a much fuzzier picture until later.
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pleasepaypreacher.net
The only right and proper response is, "It's never too soon, because it's always too late."
Even if the answe was mental illness you'd have to answer why one demographic seems to succumb to it disproportionately (assuming this is true). What cultural factors cause that?
Hahahah oh you tell a funny joke mcdermott. This is an isolated incident, not an indication of a greater cultural problem, didn't you hear? The shooter was white.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Desperate inferiority.
The racism side, at least.
I've never been able to find the story again and I wish I'd bookmarked it, it was told by the son of the man who originally related the story, but the gist was, late 30s, in Alabama, a black couple and their son buy a derelict farm, and set about making it work again. The neighboring white farmer who's been there all along, and suffered through the depression, burns their fields and kills their livestock while they're in town buying supplies. They come back to the farm, find it destroyed, pack their belongings and leave. And the kid (father of the guy telling the story) asks his father, why'd they do that? Why'd the neighbor wreck everything, why'd they just leave? And the father answers, a man's got to feel superior to something. And what were they going to do, rebuild and let it happen again?
Racism sprouts from helplessness and hopelessness and a desperate desire to feel like they're better than something, anything.
As for straight up serial killers and mass murderers, there's just something wrong with them. They're not wired right. It's not insanity, it's just internally being broken.
Mind you, I'm pulling this straight out of my ass, and am most certainly wrong.
WoW
Dear Satan.....
Well, desperate inferiority is one aspect. But it's not just poor white folks who are racist. Historically, many of the wealthiest people in society were also the most racist. That might be another manifestation of desperate inferiority (where any narrowing of the 'superiority gap' is viewed as a loss of position), but racism isn't that simple.
Serial killers aren't that simple either. I mean, yes, you've got the 'Criminal Minds' serial killers who are just ill and broken people. They do exist, but killers can still be created by their environment. You can have say, groups within ISIS, the Nazi Party, or the KKK, where individually each member is a generally rational and mentally competent individual, but the group as a whole fosters conditions that make killing (or other horrendous acts) the rational choice.
This guy? Who knows at this point. We haven't seen much of him prior to his shooting last night, and while there are some indications (the flags on his jacket, the CSA license plate) neither of those are exceptionally out of the ordinary. Just normal terrible, so to speak...but we'll see a lot more over the next few days and I bet we find someone who may not be as organized and competent, but basically had a similar mindset to Breivik.
You forgot where we worked for ours where as they were handed everything through affirmative action and the like.
But this is a new level from them.
This is the same. Someone can be a terrorist, racist, and mentally ill. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are more likely often intwertwined, imo.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Man, rich people are some of the most insecure individuals on Earth. Everything is a challenge to their superiority.
Nazis, ISIS, KKK, they're all killing for a reason, there's something achievable by the killing they're doing. There's a goal. They might even enjoy the killing, but it's enjoyment in getting closer to that goal. I'm talking Bundy-style serial killers, people who just kill. Ted Bundy killed because he needed to kill. It served no purpose other than fulfilling his desire to kill.
There's a concept in sociology called anomie, which was coined to describe the disconnect of the individual from the larger community in the wake of industrialization. The idea is that when you don't grow up in a small and tight-knit community, under the supervision and influence of all of these people who are important to you, you become adrift and alienated and struggle to find a sense of meaning and identity.
I think some of these mass shooters are the product of a new form of anomie present in an age where the last real links of socialization are worn down further (imagine both parents working so much that they are rarely able to interface with their child or they simply never learn how to do it), and a bunch of crazy bullshit on the internet takes over and fills the void for people who feel extremely alienated from the rest of society.
It becomes a lot easier for hate groups or groups preaching terrible ideologies to draw individuals into their causes when those individuals are already desperate for a cause or a sense of belonging. There's no real community that a lot of us are raised in anymore, and so many people are really struggling to build an identity for themselves into their early adolescence. This sense of disconnect also makes it really easy to try to find a scapegoat for why you feel so adrift. There's been a lot written recently that pushes this as the reason why so many European youths have decided to run away and join ISIS. It's deplorable, but we live in a clockwork society that runs on putting people into all these stressful, isolated situations and expecting them to spend so much of their time working. It's easy to see how adolescents can get lost in that situation.
It outs me as a fierce structuralist, but this is also part of the reason why I don't buy into the "mental illness" idea in the majority of these situations. Most of these people are 'fine' or 'normal' or undetectable until they decide not to be. You can't screen people for a "mental illness" if it's something they've already chosen to hide; I find it more to be a symptom of greater problems in the social order at large, and each time events like this happen it becomes clear that nothing is going to fix those problems. The solutions would require huge amounts of government intervention and social spending; the whole thing would make gun control look like an easy alternative.
On a somewhat related note, I'd love to see what would happen if we raised the age of gun ownership to 25 or something. We know that the early 20s and late teens are extremely volatile years for psychological development, and the lion's share of the random mass shootings we've seen in the last two decades have been perpetrated by young people.
Do you have a source for this? Something more substantial than "only a mentally ill person could have done this"?
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/16/tamerlan-tsarnaev-heard-voices-boston-bombing_n_4455717.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/02/us/boston-marathon-bombing-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-trial/
It can be both!
That's definitely true, but they also don't have to exist together.
A lot is going to depend on how you define mentally ill, of course.
This guy is probably all three, but a perfectly rational person could see terrorism as an effective way of bringing about political change. They are still a terrorist, even if they aren't mentally ill. Similarly, racism isn't a mental illness - although there is a reasonable argument that it SHOULD be.
He was probably irreparably broken, and don't think I'm at all trying to rationalize or justify his behavior, but perfectly healthy people have done some awful terrible things as a result of their environment.
As another note, people have pretty much been horrible as long as there have been people - they didn't suddenly become more horrible because of industrialization or because mom and dad both worked. Cults existed before the internet and before mass media. Groups of people got together and did horrible things to other groups of people as far back as we've got history. Hell, monkeys are known to do some of those things.
All that's old is new again, and twenty years ago it was Doom that cause Columbine, and before that you had David Koresh or Charles Manson or anarchists, or...on and on.
Mental illness is already highly stigmatized in this country, and racism is already highly downplayed. If the guy turns out to actually have a disorder, okay, but to me this can all be explained by hatred and aggression; the DSM doesn't need to enter into it, especially when there's no evidence yet that he suffered from anything.
Actually attempting to fix "mental illness" would require huge amounts of increased public spending, and trying to fix it for these young people would likely also mean an influx of cash into schools for expanded counseling services, and god knows none of that is going to happen. And then even if it did, how many of these people would avoid optional services to begin with? It's just such a hollow argument to me.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Purely idle speculation, but I wonder if the fact that white men aren't generally scrutinized as heavily by law enforcement and the like allows them to fly under the radar longer, and actually follow through on these kinds of things. Whereas a minority actor would be more likely to get arrested at the first sign of suspicion and rarely make it that far.
This is obviously assuming that the number of psychotic mass murders are roughly consistent across all races.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
Yeah, if they really believed that America would have had a huge investment in mental health care.
Its literally the same thing that happened with the Boston Marathon Bombing but in reverse. Seriously, go back and read the Boston Marathon thread as it was developing. Its literally the same thing. Anyone who tried to say it was islamic terrorism was shot down pretty hard. After the fact, the discussion was dominated by talks of mental illness.
The Left focuses on racism, sexism, domestic terrorism, etc. The Right focuses on foreign terrorism, communism, etc.
Tragedy A (Boston Marathon Bombing)
Initial Details: Minorities bombed a race on an important American holiday in a historic town. They have ties to the Middle East and have said terrorism related thing online.
Left: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
Right: FOREIGN TERRORISM! ISLAM IS BAD!
Tragedy B (Charleston Church Shooting)
Initial Details: White male shoots a historic black church on a significant day. He has ties to racist stuff and has said racist things.
Left: DOMESTIC TERRORISM! RACISM!
Right: Wait for information. Likely mental illness.
I'm not saying this dude wasn't racist (it sound like he is!) or that this wasn't terrorism (it is!). But to dismiss mental illness when its the first thing the majority of this forum jumped to in a similar situation 2 years ago is interesting to me.
"Mental Illness" is looked upon with almost the same sad sympathy a birth defect is. Oooooh... he was mentally ill. What could anyone have done, ya know?
I am kind of expecting that we'll find this guy's reddit or stormfront or whatever online profiles pretty soon.
The fact that he chose this church, on this day, traveled to it, and sat there for an hour before he started killing people indicates premeditation and organization. This wasn't impulsive, it was organized. He made a rational and informed choice to follow through with this.
by the end, yes
but initial reactions were much less agreed upon
the conservative media was claiming foreign terrorism and blaming islam
the liberal media was claiming mental illness and caution on blame
Well, there's not really any other defense. Unless we find his older brother made him do it, a lawyer would be stupid to go with anything else.
Since they will almost certainly seek the death penalty a plea won't be on the table either.
That's a bingo. Especially when it's a white male shooter who was a huge racist. It's easier to call him mentally ill and write him off, just like Sandy Hook.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The media will find it too distasteful to face the fact that it was just a guy who was so scorchingly racist he was simply willing to go murder a lot of black people. That's an ugly narrative to cover 24 hours a day.
No dude, Boston was 'Tax day, in Boston'. The speculation was Tea Party / right wing extremists.
We were wrong, but that was the speculation.
Do sane people go on murder sprees though? regardless of reason?
Except the Sandy Hook guy was clearly nuts, and not motivated by any particular political ideology. This guy clearly was motivated by racism. Please don't conflate the two.
I know, there's literally no other feasible defense here. He went so far out of his way to get there, and sat around for an hour before pulling the trigger. It's premeditated, it's targeted, it's utterly indefensible outside of insanity. Hopefully the already emerging history of apparent racism is enough to take care of that.
That was until there were suspects and pictures to make it obvious these weren't white american males doing it
Then it went to caution on blaming islamic terrorism and mental illness.
edit: granted, that was a much longer developing story with a much fuzzier picture until later.