The people who maintained slavery and segregation with violence weren't mentally ill and the people who want to bring that back with violence aren't mentally ill.
They're human just like you and me, and we need to recognize that he is not someone unique or unusual.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah I really hope gun control people don't talk too soon after another incident of gun violence. Especially one in which the perpetrator had a pending felony charge and his father purchased a hand gun for him for his birthday.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
My problem with calling him insane is that its something our media wants to do so that another white person who killed people can be an isolated incident instead of an example of the shitty race relations in the south and how they continue to be a problem to this day.
This boy was raised in a culture of hate, and he grew to hate enough to kill 9 black people in a historic church because of that hate. We should not simply say "Well he was insane." No that's too easy, it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, racism is alive and fucking well in our country in 2015, well enough its still convincing people murder is perfectly fine and we should deal with this as a country, we need to have that discussion. And saying he's mentally Ill is not having that discussion its saying.
"isolated incident move along there isn't a history of racial intolerance that continues to this day in south carolina and the country in general!" And frankly the 9 dead people deserve better.
It doesn't mean any of those things unless you decide it has to. One can acknowledge a person has individual problems yet still acknowledge the societal problems that also played a dominating factor.
I'm talking about how the media talks about it. Just like how guns aren't the problem its mental illness. The media in this country will portray this guy as insane and the racial issue will be ignored. Hell fox news this morning was running with this as an attack on christianity. I guarantee in a month the racial aspect of this case will be ignored and the "he was just a crazy crazy person" will be the narrative.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Reading this thread has been an interesting experience for the D&D crew I see in other threads. In other threads we argue that mentally illness is a rather large facet that needs to be addressed. In this thread there are bits and pieces of "he must be thrown in a hole" sentiment because of "racism". To me he is obviously mentally ill. And, I also believe, he should not smell free air for a long time. The two statements are intertwined to each other. But because of a past incidents where a situation such as this could be grounds for "getting off".
In the end, from what I have seen, can we just call the mentally ill argument as: Some of us believe he is mentally ill and should still be penalized heavily. And some of us don't want that moniker because it denotes a lessening of accountability.
So, here's the thing - why do you believe that he is mentally ill?
Because he's racist? That's a VERY problematic argument.
Because he killed 9 people? This is still a problematic argument, though not nearly as bad as the previous. But still, there are issues with treating the capacity to kill as being a sign of mental illness alone
And this is where I think the problem is with trying to argue that such atrocities are signs of mental illness - it's an argument that those who do so are "different", are "defective". Because we are scared to contemplate the idea of but there for the grace of God go I.
Calling someone who kills a bunch of black people cause he's a white supremacist "crazy" is basically expanding the definition of mental illness to the point where it applies to anyone that commits a crime.
Nope. There can and often are a myriad of reasons people commit crimes. Because they're "broken" or "bad" is never one of them.
Reading this thread has been an interesting experience for the D&D crew I see in other threads. In other threads we argue that mentally illness is a rather large facet that needs to be addressed. In this thread there are bits and pieces of "he must be thrown in a hole" sentiment because of "racism". To me he is obviously mentally ill. And, I also believe, he should not smell free air for a long time. The two statements are intertwined to each other. But because of a past incidents where a situation such as this could be grounds for "getting off".
In the end, from what I have seen, can we just call the mentally ill argument as: Some of us believe he is mentally ill and should still be penalized heavily. And some of us don't want that moniker because it denotes a lessening of accountability.
So, here's the thing - why do you believe that he is mentally ill?
Because he's racist? That's a VERY problematic argument.
Because he killed 9 people? This is still a problematic argument, though not nearly as bad as the previous. But still, there are issues with treating the capacity to kill as being a sign of mental illness alone
And this is where I think the problem is with trying to argue that such atrocities are signs of mental illness - it's an argument that those who do so are "different", are "defective". Because we are scared to contemplate the idea of but there for the grace of God go I.
It is more along the lines of all of it really. It comes with the loose definition of "mentally ill" and how it applies to certain situations. It is not a matter of abjection or attempting to lessen accountability but rather more on the base aspect of an individual's thoughts, actions or otherwise that I deem counter to societal norm. Or what we might want to have be the societal norm.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
My problem with calling him insane is that its something our media wants to do so that another white person who killed people can be an isolated incident instead of an example of the shitty race relations in the south and how they continue to be a problem to this day.
This boy was raised in a culture of hate, and he grew to hate enough to kill 9 black people in a historic church because of that hate. We should not simply say "Well he was insane." No that's too easy, it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, racism is alive and fucking well in our country in 2015, well enough its still convincing people murder is perfectly fine and we should deal with this as a country, we need to have that discussion. And saying he's mentally Ill is not having that discussion its saying.
"isolated incident move along there isn't a history of racial intolerance that continues to this day in south carolina and the country in general!" And frankly the 9 dead people deserve better.
It doesn't mean any of those things unless you decide it has to. One can acknowledge a person has individual problems yet still acknowledge the societal problems that also played a dominating factor.
I'm talking about how the media talks about it. Just like how guns aren't the problem its mental illness. The media in this country will portray this guy as insane and the racial issue will be ignored. Hell fox news this morning was running with this as an attack on christianity. I guarantee in a month the racial aspect of this case will be ignored and the "he was just a crazy crazy person" will be the narrative.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
There are a ton of issues at play with this tragedy.
To want none of them brought to light or discussed because it will take time away from your chosen pet issue in this tragedy is ... not good.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
Reading this thread has been an interesting experience for the D&D crew I see in other threads. In other threads we argue that mentally illness is a rather large facet that needs to be addressed. In this thread there are bits and pieces of "he must be thrown in a hole" sentiment because of "racism". To me he is obviously mentally ill. And, I also believe, he should not smell free air for a long time. The two statements are intertwined to each other. But because of a past incidents where a situation such as this could be grounds for "getting off".
In the end, from what I have seen, can we just call the mentally ill argument as: Some of us believe he is mentally ill and should still be penalized heavily. And some of us don't want that moniker because it denotes a lessening of accountability.
So, here's the thing - why do you believe that he is mentally ill?
Because he's racist? That's a VERY problematic argument.
Because he killed 9 people? This is still a problematic argument, though not nearly as bad as the previous. But still, there are issues with treating the capacity to kill as being a sign of mental illness alone
And this is where I think the problem is with trying to argue that such atrocities are signs of mental illness - it's an argument that those who do so are "different", are "defective". Because we are scared to contemplate the idea of but there for the grace of God go I.
Calling someone who kills a bunch of black people cause he's a white supremacist "crazy" is basically expanding the definition of mental illness to the point where it applies to anyone that commits a crime.
Nope. There can and often are a myriad of reasons people commit crimes. Because they're "broken" or "bad" is never one of them.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
It is both. Which is argued in the other thread pretty vehemently. But it also falls under the "we can do more things than one" mechanism. We should be able to work on both aspects without having to remove the other completely.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
I would prefer to talk about racism, better gun control, and funding mental health services as it relates to this.
Well good for Merica we'll do neither. We'll continue to cut mental health funding and SC will pass a new law that lets you pack a gun into church/mandate that all church's have a stash of firearms in them. Our laws go one way and its not the way of sanity.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Reading this thread has been an interesting experience for the D&D crew I see in other threads. In other threads we argue that mentally illness is a rather large facet that needs to be addressed. In this thread there are bits and pieces of "he must be thrown in a hole" sentiment because of "racism". To me he is obviously mentally ill. And, I also believe, he should not smell free air for a long time. The two statements are intertwined to each other. But because of a past incidents where a situation such as this could be grounds for "getting off".
In the end, from what I have seen, can we just call the mentally ill argument as: Some of us believe he is mentally ill and should still be penalized heavily. And some of us don't want that moniker because it denotes a lessening of accountability.
So, here's the thing - why do you believe that he is mentally ill?
Because he's racist? That's a VERY problematic argument.
Because he killed 9 people? This is still a problematic argument, though not nearly as bad as the previous. But still, there are issues with treating the capacity to kill as being a sign of mental illness alone
And this is where I think the problem is with trying to argue that such atrocities are signs of mental illness - it's an argument that those who do so are "different", are "defective". Because we are scared to contemplate the idea of but there for the grace of God go I.
Calling someone who kills a bunch of black people cause he's a white supremacist "crazy" is basically expanding the definition of mental illness to the point where it applies to anyone that commits a crime.
Nope. There can and often are a myriad of reasons people commit crimes. Because they're "broken" or "bad" is never one of them.
Yes. Just like with this act of terrorism.
Okay? So then you do agree that mental illness played a part?
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
It is both. Which is argued in the other thread pretty vehemently. But it also falls under the "we can do more things than once" mechanism. We should be able to work on both aspects without having to remove the other completely.
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
It is both. Which is argued in the other thread pretty vehemently. But it also falls under the "we can do more things than once" mechanism. We should be able to work on both aspects without having to remove the other completely.
I agree. But thus far we aren't doing two things at once. We aren't even doing one thing at once. If we aren't going to do shit about guns, could we please do something about mental health. Or the other way around? Either would be an improvement on what we do now, which is nothing.
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
That reminds me, I'm seriously hoping that gun control advocates mostly stay quiet here, all they can do is muddy the issue. Nothing short of a total ban could have stopped this guy, and even then he'd probably have just built a bomb instead. All advocating for gun control because of this can do is give apologists something that they can actually defend against.
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
It is both. Which is argued in the other thread pretty vehemently. But it also falls under the "we can do more things than once" mechanism. We should be able to work on both aspects without having to remove the other completely.
I agree. But thus far we aren't doing two things at once. We aren't even doing one thing at once. If we aren't going to do shit about guns, could we please do something about mental health. Or the other way around? Either would be an improvement on what we do now, which is nothing.
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
Charge the father, accessory to murder.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Yes I am well aware we are not doing more than one thing at once. It is one of the more aggravating parts of being an American. And doubly so because the gun control flag has already been risen. But it is used quite often in other arguments and it applies here just as well.
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
A given law failing to prevent this incident is not reason to fail to enact any meaningful gun control legislation.
How would mental health service enhancements have prevented this tragedy?
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It sounds to me like people who knew Roof knew he was a huge racist and basically didn't think anything of it. Because racism is normalized in that community. His roommate straight up said "yeah, dude wanted to start a race war", and somehow never thought at any point to notify the authorities.
His dad gave him a gun while he was awaiting a felony.
The whole community basically just looked the other way. This is a complex problem to solve because the only way we get there is to dismantle white supremacy.
How would mental health service enhancements have prevented this tragedy?
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
Maybe, maybe not! Kind of irrelevant to the question.
Are there any indications that this guy actually has a mental illness, by the way?
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
I think the line of reasoning is basically I would never murder anyone, much less 9 people, therefore he must be mentally ill. There's no indication in any of the reports I've read that he was anything but a horrible racist within a community that enabled his racism.
How would mental health service enhancements have prevented this tragedy?
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
Maybe, maybe not! Kind of irrelevant to the question.
I think it's entirely relevant that no one in his life thought he had a mental illness or thought that his racism was an issue to be concerned about, or reported anything to anyone.
How would mental health service enhancements have prevented this tragedy?
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
Maybe, maybe not! Kind of irrelevant to the question.
The question is though, what would an expanded mental health service do for a huge racist living in the south where its an accepted part of his culture? To Dylann he was not crazy, and I have never heard of a person being committed because they were a racist living in a trailer park.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Are there any indications that this guy actually has a mental illness, by the way?
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
Several of us consider killing nine people on its own to not be the actions of a mentally healthy person.
Which is not to say racism didn't also play a huge part or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. This has actually been talked about in some detail in the last few pages.
It sounds to me like people who knew Roof knew he was a huge racist and basically didn't think anything of it. Because racism is normalized in that community. His roommate straight up said "yeah, dude wanted to start a race war", and somehow never thought at any point to notify the authorities.
His dad gave him a gun while he was awaiting a felony.
The whole community basically just looked the other way. This is a complex problem to solve because the only way we get there is to dismantle white supremacy.
I think I'm pretty conservative by this forum's standards, but I'm completely on board with this. The fact that nobody thought that him being a racist, talking about mass shootings, and having an illegal gun was maybe worth telling someone about, is terrible and goes to a cultural problem.
Father is an accessory
I'm fine with it. People who give firearms to prohibited persons are scum.
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
A given law failing to prevent this incident is not reason to fail to enact any meaningful gun control legislation.
I think the point is that in this specific situation, no amount of meaningful gun control legislation wouldn't made a difference short of an all out ban on all firearms and a subsequent forced collection program followed by their destruction.
This was a man who received a handgun from his father. It's not possible to legislate that away. The only thing that will happen by turning this into another gun control debate is to allow the people who don't want to talk about the obvious racism issue in this country an easy out.
Are there any indications that this guy actually has a mental illness, by the way?
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
I think the line of reasoning is basically I would never murder anyone, much less 9 people, therefore he must be mentally ill. There's no indication in any of the reports I've read that he was anything but a horrible racist within a community that enabled his racism.
No it is more murder and racism are social cancer and labeling it as a mental illness might be a push in the right direction for reform. But as we have seen here doing so comes with a ton of stigma attached to it because of how messed up our mental health system is really. The counter argument to labeling him mentally ill as a misrepresentation is really one of the problems we have as a whole with our definition of it and the resulting reform of it.
Yes I am well aware we are not doing more than one thing at once. But it is used quite often in other arguments and it applies here just as well.
A lot of big, important things (example: health care reform) do not take place without a focused, national message and mandate. If you say both gun control and mental health care reform are necessary to solve the problem, you'll get neither of them, even though you're technically correct.
So while I'm not saying you're wrong that we can work on both things, it won't happen. Change is incremental, even if that is not optimal, by the very nature of our political system. The trouble is that right now, there's no concerted effort to work on even a single one of the two issues. Gun control is not happening. Funding public mental health care services is not happening either.
What will happen is that everybody will use this awful, tragic event to push the agenda they were already championing, a couple weeks will go by and everybody will move on and nothing substantial will change. Then another event like this will happen somewhere down the line and
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
Charge the father, accessory to murder.
That on top of him purchasing a firearm and transferring it to someone who he knew was a prohibited person.
How would mental health service enhancements have prevented this tragedy?
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
Maybe, maybe not! Kind of irrelevant to the question.
I think it's entirely relevant that no one in his life thought he had a mental illness or thought that his racism was an issue to be concerned about, or reported anything to anyone.
Yes no one in his life thought he had a mental illness. Our education on the topic and services offered are also atrocious so I kinda sorta think that should be considered a factor.
Are there any indications that this guy actually has a mental illness, by the way?
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
Several of us consider killing nine people on its own to not be the actions of a mentally healthy person.
Which is not to say racism didn't also play a huge part or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. This has actually been talked about in some detail in the last few pages.
I too do not believe that racism is a healthy mindset for anyone. That's not the same as having a mental illness. I was asking if there were any further facts that support him having a mental illness of some type, doesn't seem like there are.
In SC, it's illegal to possess a gun while awaiting trial on a felony charge. That didn't seem to stop his father from illegally giving him a gun.
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
Charge the father, accessory to murder.
That on top of him purchasing a firearm and transferring it to someone who he knew was a prohibited person.
Which is already two crimes.
I hope they charge the father for every and all crimes they can. Send a message, do not transfer fire arms to felons/people facing felonies, even people in your own god dam family, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN GOD DAMN FAMILY!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It sounds to me like people who knew Roof knew he was a huge racist and basically didn't think anything of it. Because racism is normalized in that community. His roommate straight up said "yeah, dude wanted to start a race war", and somehow never thought at any point to notify the authorities.
His dad gave him a gun while he was awaiting a felony.
The whole community basically just looked the other way. This is a complex problem to solve because the only way we get there is to dismantle white supremacy.
And that's what the response towards this needs to be focused on. We need to attack these sorts of communities until they reform themselves. And we need to do so in a way that doesn't ignore the real problem while giving them an automatic victory.
Are there any indications that this guy actually has a mental illness, by the way?
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
Several of us consider killing nine people on its own to not be the actions of a mentally healthy person.
Which is not to say racism didn't also play a huge part or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. This has actually been talked about in some detail in the last few pages.
I too do not believe that racism is a healthy mindset for anyone. That's not the same as having a mental illness. I was asking if there were any further facts that support him having a mental illness of some type, doesn't seem like there are.
There's the nine he killed. Seems like maybe he might also have issues with violence.
Posts
They're human just like you and me, and we need to recognize that he is not someone unique or unusual.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
pleasepaypreacher.net
Gooseshit.
Why shouldn't we be pointing out that perhaps if guns weren't so accessible, then perhaps we wouldn't be having these sorts of massacres like clockwork?
Nope. There can and often are a myriad of reasons people commit crimes. Because they're "broken" or "bad" is never one of them.
It is more along the lines of all of it really. It comes with the loose definition of "mentally ill" and how it applies to certain situations. It is not a matter of abjection or attempting to lessen accountability but rather more on the base aspect of an individual's thoughts, actions or otherwise that I deem counter to societal norm. Or what we might want to have be the societal norm.
There are a ton of issues at play with this tragedy.
To want none of them brought to light or discussed because it will take time away from your chosen pet issue in this tragedy is ... not good.
Exactly.
Also, the people the most likely to say "it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue" are the same people who are and would continue to be perfectly fine gutting mental health services. Fine, if it is a gun issue and not a mental health issue can we please fund the hell out of mental health services some maybe we can have one or two fewer mass shootings a year?
Yes. Just like with this act of terrorism.
It is both. Which is argued in the other thread pretty vehemently. But it also falls under the "we can do more things than one" mechanism. We should be able to work on both aspects without having to remove the other completely.
I would prefer to talk about racism, better gun control, and funding mental health services as it relates to this.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Okay? So then you do agree that mental illness played a part?
"We can do more than one thing."
But we won't. We won't do either.
I agree. But thus far we aren't doing two things at once. We aren't even doing one thing at once. If we aren't going to do shit about guns, could we please do something about mental health. Or the other way around? Either would be an improvement on what we do now, which is nothing.
Can you go to therapy for being a huge racist?
I'd like to know what sort of gun law would stop a father, who presumably isn't otherwise a criminal, from illegally giving a gun to his son, who is already prohibited from possessing it.
It's also illegal in SC to carry a gun into a church, even with a valid permit, without special permission. So that's yet another mass shooting in a gun-free zone. So..... :?
Sure but that's changing the subject quite a bit.
Charge the father, accessory to murder.
pleasepaypreacher.net
You can certainly go to therapy for having urges to commit acts of violence or a strong desire to kill people.
Charge him with 9 counts of conspiracy to murder.
A given law failing to prevent this incident is not reason to fail to enact any meaningful gun control legislation.
To seek help for a problem you have to admit you have one. I don't believe based on his actions Dylann considered being a huge admitted racist as a problem. Also his friends from the gawker link didn't seem to think it was an issue, and nor did his father who bought him a pistol for his birthday.
pleasepaypreacher.net
His dad gave him a gun while he was awaiting a felony.
The whole community basically just looked the other way. This is a complex problem to solve because the only way we get there is to dismantle white supremacy.
His words and actions show he was a racist murderous person. I don't know what facts have been revealed that support him having a mental illness.
Maybe, maybe not! Kind of irrelevant to the question.
I think the line of reasoning is basically I would never murder anyone, much less 9 people, therefore he must be mentally ill. There's no indication in any of the reports I've read that he was anything but a horrible racist within a community that enabled his racism.
I think it's entirely relevant that no one in his life thought he had a mental illness or thought that his racism was an issue to be concerned about, or reported anything to anyone.
The question is though, what would an expanded mental health service do for a huge racist living in the south where its an accepted part of his culture? To Dylann he was not crazy, and I have never heard of a person being committed because they were a racist living in a trailer park.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Several of us consider killing nine people on its own to not be the actions of a mentally healthy person.
Which is not to say racism didn't also play a huge part or that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. This has actually been talked about in some detail in the last few pages.
I think I'm pretty conservative by this forum's standards, but I'm completely on board with this. The fact that nobody thought that him being a racist, talking about mass shootings, and having an illegal gun was maybe worth telling someone about, is terrible and goes to a cultural problem.
I'm fine with it. People who give firearms to prohibited persons are scum.
I think the point is that in this specific situation, no amount of meaningful gun control legislation wouldn't made a difference short of an all out ban on all firearms and a subsequent forced collection program followed by their destruction.
This was a man who received a handgun from his father. It's not possible to legislate that away. The only thing that will happen by turning this into another gun control debate is to allow the people who don't want to talk about the obvious racism issue in this country an easy out.
No it is more murder and racism are social cancer and labeling it as a mental illness might be a push in the right direction for reform. But as we have seen here doing so comes with a ton of stigma attached to it because of how messed up our mental health system is really. The counter argument to labeling him mentally ill as a misrepresentation is really one of the problems we have as a whole with our definition of it and the resulting reform of it.
A lot of big, important things (example: health care reform) do not take place without a focused, national message and mandate. If you say both gun control and mental health care reform are necessary to solve the problem, you'll get neither of them, even though you're technically correct.
So while I'm not saying you're wrong that we can work on both things, it won't happen. Change is incremental, even if that is not optimal, by the very nature of our political system. The trouble is that right now, there's no concerted effort to work on even a single one of the two issues. Gun control is not happening. Funding public mental health care services is not happening either.
What will happen is that everybody will use this awful, tragic event to push the agenda they were already championing, a couple weeks will go by and everybody will move on and nothing substantial will change. Then another event like this will happen somewhere down the line and
That on top of him purchasing a firearm and transferring it to someone who he knew was a prohibited person.
Which is already two crimes.
Yes no one in his life thought he had a mental illness. Our education on the topic and services offered are also atrocious so I kinda sorta think that should be considered a factor.
I too do not believe that racism is a healthy mindset for anyone. That's not the same as having a mental illness. I was asking if there were any further facts that support him having a mental illness of some type, doesn't seem like there are.
I hope they charge the father for every and all crimes they can. Send a message, do not transfer fire arms to felons/people facing felonies, even people in your own god dam family, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN GOD DAMN FAMILY!
pleasepaypreacher.net
And that's what the response towards this needs to be focused on. We need to attack these sorts of communities until they reform themselves. And we need to do so in a way that doesn't ignore the real problem while giving them an automatic victory.
There's the nine he killed. Seems like maybe he might also have issues with violence.