VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
edited July 2015
For those who are calling it "dogpiling" like @cr0w did, have you noticed that most of the people in disagreement to Hacksaw actually all have different (if compatible) viewpoints?
Like I'm coming at it from a violence against women thing. Others are coming at it as comic book loyalists. Some are expressing a lack of faith in Hollywood. Still others are discussing the value of an implied scene rather than the actual scene in the movie.
The conversations are overlapping but they are different conversations.
Calling it dogpiling means you haven't actually been reading a damn thing that has been said and/or are too cowardly to admit that it's not as simple as you think it is. In which case, by all means, call it "dogpiling", but it doesn't speak highly of your investment in the discussion in the first place.
Like Hacksaw you appear to be saying that it's ok for the Joker to be the Joker, even if it comes at the expense of Harley being Harley.
Do you understand why this is a bad thing in the current milieu?
I understand why this is a landmine issue for a lot of people here, yes.
There a long history of female characters being poorly written or portrayed because it's not what a particular male character needs as a foil or motivator or ornament in that moment. So some people are going to be hypersensitive to these characters being used this way even in a new medium.
And again, I don't like implying much from the trailers, but if you assumed that the implications of the scene in question are true, it's really problematic. And some people are not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to franchises that have repeated shown they do not actually acknowledge the issue.
I mean, they included that scene without context in a promo of the movie. There's a lot to be implied from THAT decision too, regardless of how familiar you are with comic books.
There is definitely a lot that can be inferred from just that small sequence, it's true. If they take the low road, well, then they run the risk of degrading the overall product for the sake of a cheap and dirty narrative nudge. I hope that's not the case. And, in point of fact, I've been on the record this whole time in saying that I'm not willing to believe it is the case until presented with more clear evidence that it is such.
Which is well within your right
the way you're phrasing stuff makes it seems like you do not fully believe people have the right to believe that it is the case, pre-emptively, based on a cultural track record of handling this shit real poorly
I mean, they certainly have that right. I just get a little annoyed when people don't give stuff the benefit of the doubt where it might be warranted. Suicide Squad is Ayer's first entry into the DC Cinematic Universe. As of this post, none of us know what story he's going to tell with the movie, or how he's going to tell it, and what we're going to see happen to the characters we know so well by name alone. But we must keep in mind that those very same characters will be, for all intents and purposes, the same characters in name only. Their stories and backstories will likely be changed to fit the needs of the narrative, not vice versa. I don't know what those needs are, but I hope they're better than what everyone else here seems to be expecting.
That is what I choose to believe.
see, this is where being a comic fan may be coloring my interpretation - I have different expectations for Ayers' level of control over his move, because I'm used to seeing DC as a company that reliably and consistently interferes with creative teams from on high, mandating story changes, dictating plotlines, and so on.
Yeah, I'm picking that up. The comic book people definitely have different expectations than I do vis a vis Suicide Squad.
the thing is, my issue as a comic book fan isn't "this is different from the comics, so it's bad" it's "this movie is being made by a company that has tended towards a particular type of storytelling in recent years, one that makes me less inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt now"
Understandable. I don't believe the cynicism, in this case, is warranted, but your I suppose it's not my place to try to invalidate your personal feelings on the matter. Do as you will.
this is a pretty good place to leave this until we know more about the movie, i think
because at this point we're just going to accomplish nothing but engendering some hurt feelings
I can see where you're coming from, Hacksaw, even if I'm not inclined to agree with you
+2
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
edited July 2015
Guys, don't call it dogpiling.
To call it that would imply that I'm incapable of standing on my own two feet in this discussion.
EDIT: This is directed at the people who seem to think I'm on the receiving end of some kind of group wedgie. It's not a wedgie, guys. I've had plenty of those in my lifetime. This ain't it.
The dog piling in this place is getting unbelievable. @FroThulhu , @Hacksaw there's no point in continuing any of this. It's a hamster wheel.
You keep using this word.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
I fucking know exactly what it means. This entire place has turned into a forum of bullies, and God help anyone who doesn't add to the echo chamber.
your definition of bully is very different from mine
By this definition I was being bullied in the G&T Zelda thread for wanting a female Link, which I don't really think I was. I say that thread because cr0w and the others would have been "dog piling" on me in there, by their definition.
I think the conflict with Hacksaw comes down to a basic optimist-pessimist thing. Some of us are inclined to assume the worst until shown otherwise, and some are inclined to assume the best. Neither view is "right" or "wrong" but they're pretty incompatible.
+4
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Ultimately we're all going to have to wait over a year from now to figure out who's the correct party in this matter.
If any of us even remember this, that far from now.
0
Options
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
edited July 2015
FTR I consider Hacksaw a pretty decent mate and am 100% capable of disagreeing with him on something pretty huge without invalidating that.
I do not object to Django because, while fictional, it is based on actual experiences of slavery and is meant to force people to acknowledge that this is the history.
Meanwhile the (possible) portrayal of a woman being tortured into loving a man is something that is lazy. It does not actually portray, with any basis reality, how abuse can actually deconstruct one's sense of self-worth or value.
Worse, it ignores and subverts the stuff that ACTUALLY forces women to remain with abusive men. It reinforces the image of women to be not their own agents, but to be tools in the development of male characters. This subculture has been guilty of that enough times that something different is LONG overdue.
You can portray a man as super evil without torturing a woman in a gratuitous way that is so common it's basically a trope. The writers may just have been too lazy to figure out how.
Ok.
Christ.
What I would object to, vigorously, is if this was intended to be directly allegorical or representative of what people actually go through in abusive relationships.
Frankly, in a situation where a character is supposed to be redeemable after murdering however many hundreds one tends to murder whilst hanging out with the Joker, real-life abuse... fucking bothers me as an element. I take issue with a character who is a mass-murderer because she was abused. I, personally, find it cheapens the actual issue.
Fucking Rambo2 super-villain torture? I'm ok with. That's the kind of shit that's instrumental in male character's origins*. I felt, while watching the animated series as an adult, that the dynamic between the characters was insensitive to actual people's issues; I felt it made light of it. That's how I interpret that, and I'd rather have a female super-hero/anti-hero go through comicbook torture, than actual people torture. My Fucking Bad.
*By this I'm stating that I hate the dynamic where male heroes get to have moments of tragedy or conversely super-badassery as their defining moments/origins, while female characters seem to get victimized in really gross ways as an all-too-often origin. Like, some grizzled dude gets tortured or beat up and has grizzled action hero flashbacks, that's pretty common for male heroes, and doesn't take away their agency as badasses later on. I don't think applying the same thing to a female character is the worst.
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Furthermore I am laughing at anyone who thinks this forum now is a forum of bullies.
Like, I mean, holy shit yo, I was posting in this forum over a decade ago. If you think things are toxic now, then you fucking know nothing Jon Snow(s). This ain't nothing compared to what I used to have to deal with.
so looking at that suicide squad trailer a little closer, there are some, uh, troubling implications regarding the joker/harley relationship
gonna spoiler this cause it might be a bit triggering
there's a shot of a pre-harley harleen strapped to a table in a very unwilling state with what is clearly the joker standing over her in the same location/wearing the same glove he's wearing at the end of the trailer, meaning that's her he's talking to at the end, seeming to imply that he "breaks" her and she might not be devoted to him by choice
which is a pretty shitty direction to take an already precarious character
Well, I mean, I don't think you're supposed to like the Joker. He's a murderous psychopath with no good reasoning behind his actions.
Liking the Joker has nothing to do with it.
It's still shitty and gross and it's a lazy tactic to try and make a bad guy despicable because you can't write worth shit.
It's also if true an easy way to make Harley sympathetic and not have agency in her own choices. It's easy movie jargon for making your villain character not responsible for their actions.
I do not object to Django because, while fictional, it is based on actual experiences of slavery and is meant to force people to acknowledge that this is the history.
Meanwhile the (possible) portrayal of a woman being tortured into loving a man is something that is lazy. It does not actually portray, with any basis reality, how abuse can actually deconstruct one's sense of self-worth or value.
Worse, it ignores and subverts the stuff that ACTUALLY forces women to remain with abusive men. It reinforces the image of women to be not their own agents, but to be tools in the development of male characters. This subculture has been guilty of that enough times that something different is LONG overdue.
You can portray a man as super evil without torturing a woman in a gratuitous way that is so common it's basically a trope. The writers may just have been too lazy to figure out how.
Ok.
Christ.
What I would object to, vigorously, is if this was intended to be directly allegorical or representative of what people actually go through in abusive relationships.
Frankly, in a situation where a character is supposed to be redeemable after murdering however many hundreds one tends to murder whilst hanging out with the Joker, real-life abuse... fucking bothers me as an element. I take issue with a character who is a mass-murderer because she was abused. I, personally, find it cheapens the actual issue.
Fucking Rambo2 super-villain torture? I'm ok with. That's the kind of shit that's instrumental in male character's origins. I felt, while watching the animated series as an adult, that the dynamic between the characters was insensitive to actual people's issues; I felt it made light of it. That's how I interpret that, and I'd rather have a female super-hero/anti-hero go through comicbook torture, than actual people torture. My Fucking Bad.
Actually my point which I think you missed is that I don't particularly want a female hero or anti-hero to be tortured AT ALL.
Actually my point which I think you missed is that I don't particularly want a female hero or anti-hero to be tortured AT ALL.
I can definitely understand this.
And, for what it's worth, I hope that whatever Harley is or goes through in Suicide Squad, it isn't cheap and dirty and done with a careless hand. I think we can all agree she deserves better than a sloppy effort.
Furthermore I am laughing at anyone who thinks this forum now is a forum of bullies.
Like, I mean, holy shit yo, I was posting in this forum over a decade ago. If you think things are toxic now, then you fucking know nothing Jon Snow(s). This ain't nothing compared to what I used to have to deal with.
remember when "who are you?" was a thing around here?
Professor Neville Longbottom (b. 30 July, 1980) was a pure-blood wizard who began school at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in 1991, and was sorted into Gryffindor house. His parents, Alice and Frank Longbottom, were well-respected Aurors and members of the original Order of the Phoenix. About sixteen months after Neville's birth, they were tortured to insanity by four Death Eaters with the Cruciatus Curse and placed in the Janus Thickey Ward at St Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, leaving Neville to be raised by his grandmother, Augusta Longbottom.
Throughout his school years, Neville was mostly a shy, clumsy, introverted boy who was constantly being told by his grandmother that he was not good enough or living up to his parents' accomplishments. However, in his later years, he showed that he possessed great courage and perseverance: he became an important member of Dumbledore's Army, an organisation taught and led by Harry Potter. He would later fight in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries, the Battle of the Astronomy Tower, and the Battle of Hogwarts. During the Battle of Hogwarts, having refused Voldemort's invitation to join the Death Eaters, he destroyed the seventh and final Horcrux when he beheaded the snake Nagini. He also co-led the D.A. during his final year in opposition to the Death Eater professors.
After the end of the Second Wizarding War, Neville briefly served as an Auror before becoming Hogwarts' professor of Herbology and marrying Hannah Abbott.
Professor Neville Longbottom (b. 30 July, 1980) was a pure-blood wizard who began school at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in 1991, and was sorted into Gryffindor house. His parents, Alice and Frank Longbottom, were well-respected Aurors and members of the original Order of the Phoenix. About sixteen months after Neville's birth, they were tortured to insanity by four Death Eaters with the Cruciatus Curse and placed in the Janus Thickey Ward at St Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, leaving Neville to be raised by his grandmother, Augusta Longbottom.
Throughout his school years, Neville was mostly a shy, clumsy, introverted boy who was constantly being told by his grandmother that he was not good enough or living up to his parents' accomplishments. However, in his later years, he showed that he possessed great courage and perseverance: he became an important member of Dumbledore's Army, an organisation taught and led by Harry Potter. He would later fight in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries, the Battle of the Astronomy Tower, and the Battle of Hogwarts. During the Battle of Hogwarts, having refused Voldemort's invitation to join the Death Eaters, he destroyed the seventh and final Horcrux when he beheaded the snake Nagini. He also co-led the D.A. during his final year in opposition to the Death Eater professors.
After the end of the Second Wizarding War, Neville briefly served as an Auror before becoming Hogwarts' professor of Herbology and marrying Hannah Abbott.
Is haunting Hogwarts Castle fun?
0
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
It is kind of hard not to condescend to people who think the forum is a suuuuuch hostile place these days.
Like I get that we could be even better than we are and we shouldn't stop shooting to be better, but sheeeeeeeee-it this place used to be an arsehole's arsehole.
That would be a good name for a superhero: Daredevil "The Man Without Fear" "The Spectacular" Spider-Man and Nevill "The Man Who Gravity Forgot" he could be like DC New Genesis guy who hang around with Mister Miracle
It is kind of hard not to condescend to people who think the forum is a suuuuuch hostile place these days.
Like I get that we could be even better than we are and we shouldn't stop shooting to be better, but sheeeeeeeee-it this place used to be an arsehole's arsehole.
Most of the people here don't remember when Evander was a mod.
Or when DrDizaster was a mod.
Or the Pit of Hate.
I remember.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
+2
Options
Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
It is kind of hard not to condescend to people who think the forum is a suuuuuch hostile place these days.
Like I get that we could be even better than we are and we shouldn't stop shooting to be better, but sheeeeeeeee-it this place used to be an arsehole's arsehole.
Most of the people here don't remember when Evander was a mod.
Or when DrDizaster was a mod.
Or the Pit of Hate.
I remember.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I remember Evander-as-mod
But I don't really remember Evander very well... I am the worst forumer.
FroThulhu on
0
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
It is kind of hard not to condescend to people who think the forum is a suuuuuch hostile place these days.
Like I get that we could be even better than we are and we shouldn't stop shooting to be better, but sheeeeeeeee-it this place used to be an arsehole's arsehole.
Most of the people here don't remember when Evander was a mod.
Or when DrDizaster was a mod.
Or the Pit of Hate.
I remember.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I remember Evander-as-mod
But I don't really remember Evander very well... I am the worst forumer.
Consider the loss of those memories a blessing upon your mind, sweet child.
Posts
Like I'm coming at it from a violence against women thing. Others are coming at it as comic book loyalists. Some are expressing a lack of faith in Hollywood. Still others are discussing the value of an implied scene rather than the actual scene in the movie.
The conversations are overlapping but they are different conversations.
Calling it dogpiling means you haven't actually been reading a damn thing that has been said and/or are too cowardly to admit that it's not as simple as you think it is. In which case, by all means, call it "dogpiling", but it doesn't speak highly of your investment in the discussion in the first place.
this is a pretty good place to leave this until we know more about the movie, i think
because at this point we're just going to accomplish nothing but engendering some hurt feelings
I can see where you're coming from, Hacksaw, even if I'm not inclined to agree with you
To call it that would imply that I'm incapable of standing on my own two feet in this discussion.
EDIT: This is directed at the people who seem to think I'm on the receiving end of some kind of group wedgie. It's not a wedgie, guys. I've had plenty of those in my lifetime. This ain't it.
By this definition I was being bullied in the G&T Zelda thread for wanting a female Link, which I don't really think I was. I say that thread because cr0w and the others would have been "dog piling" on me in there, by their definition.
If any of us even remember this, that far from now.
So, you know, context and all.
Ok.
Christ.
What I would object to, vigorously, is if this was intended to be directly allegorical or representative of what people actually go through in abusive relationships.
Frankly, in a situation where a character is supposed to be redeemable after murdering however many hundreds one tends to murder whilst hanging out with the Joker, real-life abuse... fucking bothers me as an element. I take issue with a character who is a mass-murderer because she was abused. I, personally, find it cheapens the actual issue.
Fucking Rambo2 super-villain torture? I'm ok with. That's the kind of shit that's instrumental in male character's origins*. I felt, while watching the animated series as an adult, that the dynamic between the characters was insensitive to actual people's issues; I felt it made light of it. That's how I interpret that, and I'd rather have a female super-hero/anti-hero go through comicbook torture, than actual people torture. My Fucking Bad.
*By this I'm stating that I hate the dynamic where male heroes get to have moments of tragedy or conversely super-badassery as their defining moments/origins, while female characters seem to get victimized in really gross ways as an all-too-often origin. Like, some grizzled dude gets tortured or beat up and has grizzled action hero flashbacks, that's pretty common for male heroes, and doesn't take away their agency as badasses later on. I don't think applying the same thing to a female character is the worst.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Like, I mean, holy shit yo, I was posting in this forum over a decade ago. If you think things are toxic now, then you fucking know nothing Jon Snow(s). This ain't nothing compared to what I used to have to deal with.
It's also if true an easy way to make Harley sympathetic and not have agency in her own choices. It's easy movie jargon for making your villain character not responsible for their actions.
I can definitely understand this.
And, for what it's worth, I hope that whatever Harley is or goes through in Suicide Squad, it isn't cheap and dirty and done with a careless hand. I think we can all agree she deserves better than a sloppy effort.
remember when "who are you?" was a thing around here?
Supplier of the world's best Amaretto Peach Cheesecake, c. 2008.
The real hero of the Harry Potter franchise.
A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS
that is an incredible tagline
Is haunting Hogwarts Castle fun?
The worst gay, but owner of The Best Cats.
Like I get that we could be even better than we are and we shouldn't stop shooting to be better, but sheeeeeeeee-it this place used to be an arsehole's arsehole.
Why would I be upset about being covered in doge?
Most of the people here don't remember when Evander was a mod.
Or when DrDizaster was a mod.
Or the Pit of Hate.
I remember.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Satans..... hints.....
No one said you did, mate. Trust me when I say that you are only going to be held accountable for what you DID say.
I remember Evander-as-mod
But I don't really remember Evander very well... I am the worst forumer.
Consider the loss of those memories a blessing upon your mind, sweet child.
Oh you mean The New Sensation?