"Hey, Wii Sports is great." "Fuck you asshole, you fucking lying dicklicker, you didn't play it." That's what the conversation boiled down to. And that's trolling.
Its not trolling, its just general assholery/flaming. This is still true:
There's no reason to post that way, even if they did not believe Rank one iota,
but I thought I'd 2c my way in and mention that there's been a funny tendency to overuse the word troll of late, aimed at stuff that really isn't, and the inflammatory nature of the word is causing shitstorms where "hey, don't be a cock for no reason" wouldn't be as provocative. Trolling's a pretty specific process, and its not like the definition is a secret.
Actually, I've said exactly that a few times; people throw the word around far too often. My point - and it may not specifically apply to those flaming Rank in that thread - is that trolling itself has become a kind of forum grenade, and I think you agree from what you've said above...lob it into a thread or at someone specific and watch shit blow up. Calling someone a troll or implying that they are a troll, when they clearly aren't, is, to me, probably even worse than trolling.
I've heard SE's side of the story, I'd like some G&T guys to give me their opinions, by PM if you want. I'm reading through the thread now.
My G&T take: Many G&Ters was being large douches, and none of the SE++ers that posted, least of all Rankenphile, did a single wrong thing.
People in G&T treat discussion threads like fap-happy parties. That's what an appreciation thread is, not a discussion thread. People automatically treat a dissenting opinion as a troll and it really isn't the dissenting opinion that derails these threads, it is the inability for people to accept an opinion contrary to their own.
G&T is continuously guilty of this in many, many threads.
Yeah the G&T guys can be pretty touchy, though I've seen people come into the Wii thread and post potentially negative things about it and walk away unscathed. I've done it myself, I started a discussion about the unlikelihood of 4 player SSB:B like a month ago.
You just need to choose your words well and present your points in a balanced manner (i.e. show that you understand the point of view of both sides). Don't pull a Terrorbyte, basically. If you come in to the thread and say "I think the Wii will not be that great because of X" expect the guys who spend all day talking about it to say "Well that's not true because of Y".
It's just all too often that after the hypothetical dilaogue above occurs, someone will either say "man you guys can't take any shit in here, grow up" or "man stop trolling" when they really don't need to and then we're off down the slippery slope.
Not that I'm defending what the dudes did to Rankenphile this morning. That was totally baseless. He didn't even say the Wii wasn't any good, just that he had played it at a mates house. Now I can see the point to the flattening of the Megathreads.
It's extremely hard to stay on topic, civil, and non-xenophobic after 10 pages. I mean, that's a semi-arbitrary estimation on my part, but I've never seen a thoroughly-inviting thread after the 10 page mark.
There are some exceptions. I think the Final Fantasy XII thread has pretty much stayed the course. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions to the rule, but my point is that those are exceptions.
I'm not sure there really is a perfect solution, personally, but it is undeniable that certain threads breed rabid fanboyism and xenophobia. I'm not saying trolls don't exist. I'm sure some people post dissenting "opinions" just to be cocks. But people are not patient here, and never grant any benefit of the doubt. Instead of waiting to see, they just try to pulverize people that don't agree with them.
Also, as you pointed out, I really found the whole thing absurd because Rank wasn't even saying the Wii was bad, he was saying the Wii was good. One poster - it might have been Dourin, but it might have been someone else - implied that Rank held different opinions than most of the posters in the thread and thus probably shouldn't post in it.
This was especially absurd for two reasons:
1) Rank actually DID agree with more of the people in the thread.
2) As I said, it's not an appreciation thread where people must unanimously worship the Wii, at least in my opinion. It's a discussion thread. Civilly giving a dissenting opinion (which Rank wasn't even doing, mind you) should not only be fine, it should be supported, because there is no such thing as real discussion without an opposing viewpoint.
Partly it all stemmed from an odd choice of words on Rankenphile's part which lead to a misunderstanding. He said his mate's dad had one for a "Beta test". The G&T dudes got incredulous because consoles historically don't give out early units to members of the public or employees for testing like games do (MMO's especially).
Rank took their reaction to the words "betatest" as doubt in his assertion that he'd played the console and after that nobody knew what the fuck. If the Wii thread had just stepped back and said "What do you mean by betatest?" and Rank and said "Well my Dad's mate works for NOA so he got a unit pre-launch, I dunno if it was for testing purposes or whatever" it could have all been resolved. Unfortunately ANGRY FORUM MAN syndrome took over on both sides.
I won't argue that Rank didn't return the anger hurled at him, but you must see how G&T folk quite often literally AIM to put people in a defensive position. I think Rank's attitude and response was completely justified considering how often this exact thing happens here. Frankly, I'm glad he called them out on it.
As to him poorly wording his initial post, well - ok. But I contend that it doesn't really matter. He wasn't bragging about playing the Wii early. He was trying to say that Wii Sports was cool. Therefore, attacking him was nonsense. What is the end result of proving him wrong, anyway? Would proving him wrong prove that Wii Sports sucked, or didn't suck? I could understand if he came in and said "OMG guys I just finished Twilight Princess and boy did that game blow." Instead, he made a generic, positive comment about a game. And he got verbally gang-raped for it. It was such a stupid, pointless attack because it wouldn't have amounted to anything anyway.
"Hey, Wii Sports is great." "Fuck you asshole, you fucking lying dicklicker, you didn't play it." That's what the conversation boiled down to. And that's trolling. There's no reason to post that way, even if they did not believe Rank one iota, unless they wanted him to respond in a negative manner back or to make him leave.
I think only one side of this little flame-fest was in the wrong here.
This is kind of what I'm talking about, I'm not sure why you've taken the time to pick apart my post because there was nothing inflammatory in there. There was nothing inflammatory in Rankenphile's post, but the Wii thread still chose to pick apart his post and then the flaming started. I've no idea why this happens on forums so much. To continue the comparison, I could choose to respond to you by going "LOOK FUCK YOU MAN STOP PUTTING ME DOWN" and then we'd be in an argument (although not really cos this is the Monkey Den).
G&T were being the sole cocks until the other guys started coming in and feeding the argument. The guys who orignally flamed Rank should have been jailed straight away, as were the guys who came in after a few pages and kept the argument going. I'm not going to go out and say "blah blah SE were trolling blah" because that's an untrue generalisation.
The problem with internet forums is that if someone puts you down or attacks you, it's there for everyone to see forever that you got seeeerved (or in the case of the Wii thread until people spam their way through 90 pages in a weekend and the thread gets closed for a new one). The only way to "win" a forum dispute is to have the last word, which is where Angry Forum Man syndrome kicks in: you keep going until the other guy gives up or you both get banned. When you're allowed to take 10 minutes to pick apart the other guy's argument, there's no other way to "win" because given that time both parties can always find a point (no matter how stupid it is) to cling on to. It's also caused by really really lonely dudes who got confused somewhere and assume that people replying to your posts = meaningful social interaction.
Basically, the guys who flamed Rankenphile unfairly should have been jailed for their efforts. That would have calmed things down right away but assuming it didn't the guys who came in and kept the argument alive should have also been jailed and a mod should have told everyone to stop arguing about pointless shit. Problem solved.
That would stop any future troubles as well, but if it happened again it'd be up to the party who gets flamed to be the bigger man and ignore the idiots, because they're probably just bored and lonely and want someone to talk to about anything. Even if that anything is how big of a faggot cockmuncher the other dude is. If the flames keep up, then report them to the mods and let them sort it out.
Er, I was pretty much agreeing with you, not really picking your stuff apart - just adding my own perspective on it.
The problem I have isn't "getting served" so much has character assassination, which is far worse than thread assassination. When someone posts an outright lie about you, then I think you have every right to (a) be angry and (b) defend yourself until the other party apologizes or gets banned.
For instance, some people lied and forever etched into forum text the implication that Rank was naysaying the Wii. Being completely untrue, this is what I call character assassination.
In my opinion, it should really be a bannable offense.
Mods: Please don't take these as outright criticisms on the system. My problem isn't really with how the forums are operated or run, it's just my perspective on how things should or could be. It's kind of annoying that the forums even need such silly rules in black and white; such things should be common sense, but not many people display common sense anymore.
I've heard SE's side of the story, I'd like some G&T guys to give me their opinions, by PM if you want. I'm reading through the thread now.
My G&T take: Many G&Ters was being large douches, and none of the SE++ers that posted, least of all Rankenphile, did a single wrong thing.
People in G&T treat discussion threads like fap-happy parties. That's what an appreciation thread is, not a discussion thread. People automatically treat a dissenting opinion as a troll and it really isn't the dissenting opinion that derails these threads, it is the inability for people to accept an opinion contrary to their own.
G&T is continuously guilty of this in many, many threads.
Oh give me a break Drez. This is a classic example of seeing what you want to see. Could G&T have responded better? Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of a person who comes into a thread for the first time and says they played the Wii. Also, it didn't help that as soon as people were skeptical, the SE++ers talked about how everyone in the Wii thread was engaged in a circle jerk. It's a huge surprise that people were hostile after that.
I've heard SE's side of the story, I'd like some G&T guys to give me their opinions, by PM if you want. I'm reading through the thread now.
My G&T take: Many G&Ters was being large douches, and none of the SE++ers that posted, least of all Rankenphile, did a single wrong thing.
People in G&T treat discussion threads like fap-happy parties. That's what an appreciation thread is, not a discussion thread. People automatically treat a dissenting opinion as a troll and it really isn't the dissenting opinion that derails these threads, it is the inability for people to accept an opinion contrary to their own.
G&T is continuously guilty of this in many, many threads.
Oh give me a break Drez. This is a classic example of seeing what you want to see. Could G&T have responded better? Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of a person who comes into a thread for the first time and says they played the Wii. Also, it didn't help that as soon as people were skeptical, the SE++ers talked about how everyone in the Wii thread was engaged in a circle jerk. It's a huge surprise that people were hostile after that.
That's because everyone in the Wii thread was involved in a huge circle jerk. It was a fair assessment. Also, the most vitriolic G&T posters have a history of excessive xenophobia and cliquishness, so the excuse that the SE++ post in any way affected their response is merely that - an excuse.
Drez on
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
Drez, please to not be generalising a large amount of posters, the amount of 'circle-jerkers' who latched onto Rank were about 5-8 at most.
Don't be hating the entire subforum for some bad dudes.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited October 2006
I think the fact that the guy who was flamed and ganged upon (I made a post to the effect myself, but quickly edited it) doesn't care anymore means we should drop it.
Drez, please to not be generalising a large amount of posters, the amount of 'circle-jerkers' who latched onto Rank were about 5-8 at most.
Don't be hating the entire subforum for some bad dudes.
I'm not and I don't...I'm sorry if it came out that way. When I say "G&T does this often" I'm really referring a specific subgroup of posters that do this constantly and consistently. Not ALL of G&T does this, but it is very prevalent because this group is rather loud in the xenophobic tendencies.
Drez on
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Anybody who uses the term "xenophobia" seriously, in reference to a videogame subforum, is being retarded. And anyone who comes into a thread and accuses people of being a engaged in a circle-jerk deserves whatever chastisement they get. How do you expect people to react, with hugs and kisses?
Calling someone a troll or implying that they are a troll, when they clearly aren't, is, to me, probably even worse than trolling.
Heh. I think there's a pretty reasonable argument to the point that calling or implying someone is a troll when they clearly aren't is itself trolling :P
Who is raiding the Monkey Den? As far as I can see, we were discussing legitimate issues. However, it seems that not much more will be accomplished here, so if you think this thread has outlived its usefulness, should it be locked?
Branduil on
mcc for admin
I blame Whippy
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Clearly, the only people who should insult others in the sub-forums are the people who regularly post there and not people who primarily post elsewhere.
Or maybe, one is trolling, the other is raiding, and oh man....zzzzzzzz
MulysaSempronius on
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
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denihilistAncient and MightyRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited October 2006
The idea of sub forum raiding is pretty ridiculous and really reinforces the 'us vs them' mentality.
So much for the happy integration of G&T and SE++.
Some of us did fine. I see plenty of old G&Ter's there.
But after reading that thread, GnT were acting like cocks.
I still find it hard to believe that people are saying rank acted like a cock when it all went down something like this; "Hey my bro has a Wii, I played it, it was cool"
"No you didn't you liar, lol I beta tested scarlett johanson"
"Okay, don't believe me if you want"
'YOU COCK! HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE AND TROLL OUR THREAD YOU COCKING COCK COCK!"
Both sides acted unreasonable, but rank didn't do anything to deserve that shit.
Who is raiding the Monkey Den? As far as I can see, we were discussing legitimate issues. However, it seems that not much more will be accomplished here, so if you think this thread has outlived its usefulness, should it be locked?
Who is raiding the Monkey Den? As far as I can see, we were discussing legitimate issues. However, it seems that not much more will be accomplished here, so if you think this thread has outlived its usefulness, should it be locked?
Anybody who uses the term "xenophobia" seriously, in reference to a videogame subforum, is being retarded. And anyone who comes into a thread and accuses people of being a engaged in a circle-jerk deserves whatever chastisement they get. How do you expect people to react, with hugs and kisses?
OK, then insert any other noun you like in place of "xenophobia." Your dislike of the word or its use doesn't change the sentiment behind it, which is an entirely accurate depiction of how people often act here.
Second, Rank didn't come into the thread and accuse them of circle-jerking, he seemed to do that in a completely different thread AFTER they pounced on him. What do I expect, as a forumer? I expect people to respond to people respectfully, which they did not, and to keep things on topic in an on topic forum, which they did not. There is a massive area between "hugs and kisses" and "fuck you and die in a fire." People like you keep countering our aversion to how people there acted with the implication that the only other way to act is with fluffy marshmallow text, which is garbage. You don't have to treat a person or idea you don't like with love and smoogles, but you don't have to spit venom at them either. There is, in fact, a middle ground on which to converse: one of calm, collected logic/reason and one of respect or at least common courtesy. Would it really pain people to extend someone the benefit of the doubt before jamming their cock down the other person's throat?
Anyway, I think I've said my piece here and everyone knows my opinion on this matter, but if you'd like to quibble about vocabulary, I invite you to PM me so I can explain to you in detail why the term xenophobia is appropriate and why your opinion is completely retarded.
As long as this topic is open, I don't suppose trolling H/A is something that will get a mod in trouble, even if it would get any of the rest of us banned?
Haw dare you try to hold mods to the same standards held for regular posters? You should be ashamed. You should be kissing CT's feet right now and saying "I am not worthy. I am not worthy."
Branduil on
mcc for admin
I blame Whippy
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Posts
Actually, I've said exactly that a few times; people throw the word around far too often. My point - and it may not specifically apply to those flaming Rank in that thread - is that trolling itself has become a kind of forum grenade, and I think you agree from what you've said above...lob it into a thread or at someone specific and watch shit blow up. Calling someone a troll or implying that they are a troll, when they clearly aren't, is, to me, probably even worse than trolling.
Er, I was pretty much agreeing with you, not really picking your stuff apart - just adding my own perspective on it.
The problem I have isn't "getting served" so much has character assassination, which is far worse than thread assassination. When someone posts an outright lie about you, then I think you have every right to (a) be angry and (b) defend yourself until the other party apologizes or gets banned.
For instance, some people lied and forever etched into forum text the implication that Rank was naysaying the Wii. Being completely untrue, this is what I call character assassination.
In my opinion, it should really be a bannable offense.
Mods: Please don't take these as outright criticisms on the system. My problem isn't really with how the forums are operated or run, it's just my perspective on how things should or could be. It's kind of annoying that the forums even need such silly rules in black and white; such things should be common sense, but not many people display common sense anymore.
Oh give me a break Drez. This is a classic example of seeing what you want to see. Could G&T have responded better? Yes, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of a person who comes into a thread for the first time and says they played the Wii. Also, it didn't help that as soon as people were skeptical, the SE++ers talked about how everyone in the Wii thread was engaged in a circle jerk. It's a huge surprise that people were hostile after that.
I blame Whippy
That's because everyone in the Wii thread was involved in a huge circle jerk. It was a fair assessment. Also, the most vitriolic G&T posters have a history of excessive xenophobia and cliquishness, so the excuse that the SE++ post in any way affected their response is merely that - an excuse.
Don't be hating the entire subforum for some bad dudes.
Only because some of us don't want to see it happen again.
I'm not and I don't...I'm sorry if it came out that way. When I say "G&T does this often" I'm really referring a specific subgroup of posters that do this constantly and consistently. Not ALL of G&T does this, but it is very prevalent because this group is rather loud in the xenophobic tendencies.
I blame Whippy
Heh. I think there's a pretty reasonable argument to the point that calling or implying someone is a troll when they clearly aren't is itself trolling :P
Who is raiding the Monkey Den? As far as I can see, we were discussing legitimate issues. However, it seems that not much more will be accomplished here, so if you think this thread has outlived its usefulness, should it be locked?
I blame Whippy
Or maybe, one is trolling, the other is raiding, and oh man....zzzzzzzz
I feel so left out.
But after reading that thread, GnT were acting like cocks.
I still find it hard to believe that people are saying rank acted like a cock when it all went down something like this; "Hey my bro has a Wii, I played it, it was cool"
"No you didn't you liar, lol I beta tested scarlett johanson"
"Okay, don't believe me if you want"
'YOU COCK! HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE AND TROLL OUR THREAD YOU COCKING COCK COCK!"
Both sides acted unreasonable, but rank didn't do anything to deserve that shit.
oh man
OK, then insert any other noun you like in place of "xenophobia." Your dislike of the word or its use doesn't change the sentiment behind it, which is an entirely accurate depiction of how people often act here.
Second, Rank didn't come into the thread and accuse them of circle-jerking, he seemed to do that in a completely different thread AFTER they pounced on him. What do I expect, as a forumer? I expect people to respond to people respectfully, which they did not, and to keep things on topic in an on topic forum, which they did not. There is a massive area between "hugs and kisses" and "fuck you and die in a fire." People like you keep countering our aversion to how people there acted with the implication that the only other way to act is with fluffy marshmallow text, which is garbage. You don't have to treat a person or idea you don't like with love and smoogles, but you don't have to spit venom at them either. There is, in fact, a middle ground on which to converse: one of calm, collected logic/reason and one of respect or at least common courtesy. Would it really pain people to extend someone the benefit of the doubt before jamming their cock down the other person's throat?
Anyway, I think I've said my piece here and everyone knows my opinion on this matter, but if you'd like to quibble about vocabulary, I invite you to PM me so I can explain to you in detail why the term xenophobia is appropriate and why your opinion is completely retarded.
knock it the hell off
Especially this particular mod.
Haw dare you try to hold mods to the same standards held for regular posters? You should be ashamed. You should be kissing CT's feet right now and saying "I am not worthy. I am not worthy."
I blame Whippy
Neither are new people, should they be able to bend the rules?
Okay