I agree with everything everybody has said so far, and just to add another complication orbiting this topic: pedophilia doesn't mean you've committed a crime. There are people who have realized that they have such inclinations and are attempting to resist them, and the mainstream derision of pedophiles doesn't really distinguish between offending and nonoffending, making it harder to seek and comply with treatment.
Urgh, top comment of that article complaining about some weird pedo agenda being just like the gay agenda and oh my christ.
But yes, creating situations where someone feels ashamed, incapable of reaching for help and destined to be sent to the hell holes that are American prisons doesn't actually help at risk people not commit crime. I mean, that situation is pretty much the text book feelings for suicide and other extreme acts.
Is curing pedophiles even an ideal? I don't see much difference between that and homosexuality, other than pedophiles having the shitty luck of having their targets of attraction being considered incapable of giving consent for a number of very valid reasons.
Pedophilia is a mental disorder not a sexual preference. There's not a lot of data on treating it since you'd be hard struck to find volunteers and nobody would fund it so we don't have any real idea how to treatit
I would bet that the number of people who actually abuse children is just a small fraction of the overall population of people with those feelings and thoughts.
But, in America at least, you'll be hard pressed to have any significant research or, god forbid, actual therapeutic help for these people.
Germany was doing something interesting about it, but I cant find a link to the story, and I'm pretty sure the searches I just did to find it put me on a watchlist.
As someone who has gone to prison, I can tell you that it isn't for "rehabilitation". My conviction was drug related and I had to do mandatory Narcotics Anonymous classes. These classes were run by a prison counselor who taught that we were "addicts and criminals and would always be addicts and criminals." This upset me because its reinforcing the idea that all we have is crime. That's all we would ever be, thieves and dealers and addicts and could never rise above it. Plenty of people have turn their lives around, but you wouldn't know that hearing this guy. Its a wonder why people who have been arrested talk like they can never leave the crime life. Its part of the reason why our prisons are so full right now, we demoralize prisoners until they can't see themselves as anything but criminals, so they go right back into society and commit more crimes because that's all they know.
As someone who has gone to prison, I can tell you that it isn't for "rehabilitation". My conviction was drug related and I had to do mandatory Narcotics Anonymous classes. These classes were run by a prison counselor who taught that we were "addicts and criminals and would always be addicts and criminals." This upset me because its reinforcing the idea that all we have is crime. That's all we would ever be, thieves and dealers and addicts and could never rise above it. Plenty of people have turn their lives around, but you wouldn't know that hearing this guy. Its a wonder why people who have been arrested talk like they can never leave the crime life. Its part of the reason why our prisons are so full right now, we demoralize prisoners until they can't see themselves as anything but criminals, so they go right back into society and commit more crimes because that's all they know.
Exactly everything he just said.
People don't turn their lives around because of prison, the very few who manage it do so in spite of prison.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
Not really though. Most criminals are convinced they wont get caught or that the rules won't apply to them. In which case jail-as-a-deterrent doesn't work. There are many real life examples of this behavior, most prominently the death penalty's effect on murders (i.e. none).
Has there been any good research on whether increasing the consistency of punishment works in deterring criminals?
I'm actually a fan of the broken windows theory. It tends to work out horribly in practice, but as far as I can tell this seems to be because the people implementing it generally can't resist the urge to increase the severity of punishments as well, rather than decreasing them to maintain the same total punishment for a repeat offender.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
Not really though. Most criminals are convinced they wont get caught or that the rules won't apply to them. In which case jail-as-a-deterrent doesn't work. There are many real life examples of this behavior, most prominently the death penalty's effect on murders (i.e. none).
Has there been any good research on whether increasing the consistency of punishment works in deterring criminals?
I'm actually a fan of the broken windows theory. It tends to work out horribly in practice, but as far as I can tell this seems to be because the people implementing it generally can't resist the urge to increase the severity of punishments as well, rather than decreasing them to maintain the same total punishment for a repeat offender.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Yeah focusing on minor crimes is literally so police look effective and elected officials can point to a stat those minor crimes fall under and say " I lowered that!"
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
Not really though. Most criminals are convinced they wont get caught or that the rules won't apply to them. In which case jail-as-a-deterrent doesn't work. There are many real life examples of this behavior, most prominently the death penalty's effect on murders (i.e. none).
Has there been any good research on whether increasing the consistency of punishment works in deterring criminals?
I'm actually a fan of the broken windows theory. It tends to work out horribly in practice, but as far as I can tell this seems to be because the people implementing it generally can't resist the urge to increase the severity of punishments as well, rather than decreasing them to maintain the same total punishment for a repeat offender.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Don't confuse principles being gooseshit with police being gooseshit. The idea is that the police should be a fixture of the community rather than an outside force that intercedes at its own whim to deal out punishment and death. Simply increasing the whimrate doesn't mean that that principle is being followed. The police need to actually fix the windows, whether this involves catching criminals, scolding litterers, or offering to escort drunk people safely to their destinations. A police officer's presence should always provide a net gain to everyone nearby.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
Not really though. Most criminals are convinced they wont get caught or that the rules won't apply to them. In which case jail-as-a-deterrent doesn't work. There are many real life examples of this behavior, most prominently the death penalty's effect on murders (i.e. none).
Has there been any good research on whether increasing the consistency of punishment works in deterring criminals?
I'm actually a fan of the broken windows theory. It tends to work out horribly in practice, but as far as I can tell this seems to be because the people implementing it generally can't resist the urge to increase the severity of punishments as well, rather than decreasing them to maintain the same total punishment for a repeat offender.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Don't confuse principles being gooseshit with police being gooseshit. The idea is that the police should be a fixture of the community rather than an outside force that intercedes at its own whim to deal out punishment and death. Simply increasing the whimrate doesn't mean that that principle is being followed. The police need to actually fix the windows, whether this involves catching criminals, scolding litterers, or offering to escort drunk people safely to their destinations. A police officer's presence should always provide a net gain to everyone nearby.
That isn't Broken Windows, that's Community Policing.
I agree with everything everybody has said so far, and just to add another complication orbiting this topic: pedophilia doesn't mean you've committed a crime. There are people who have realized that they have such inclinations and are attempting to resist them, and the mainstream derision of pedophiles doesn't really distinguish between offending and nonoffending, making it harder to seek and comply with treatment.
Urgh, top comment of that article complaining about some weird pedo agenda being just like the gay agenda and oh my christ.
But yes, creating situations where someone feels ashamed, incapable of reaching for help and destined to be sent to the hell holes that are American prisons doesn't actually help at risk people not commit crime. I mean, that situation is pretty much the text book feelings for suicide and other extreme acts.
Is curing pedophiles even an ideal? I don't see much difference between that and homosexuality, other than pedophiles having the shitty luck of having their targets of attraction being considered incapable of giving consent for a number of very valid reasons.
Pedophilia is a mental disorder not a sexual preference. There's not a lot of data on treating it since you'd be hard struck to find volunteers and nobody would fund it so we don't have any real idea how to treatit
I would bet that the number of people who actually abuse children is just a small fraction of the overall population of people with those feelings and thoughts.
But, in America at least, you'll be hard pressed to have any significant research or, god forbid, actual therapeutic help for these people.
Germany was doing something interesting about it, but I cant find a link to the story, and I'm pretty sure the searches I just did to find it put me on a watchlist.
It's mentioned in the Time article I linked above.
In Germany, where therapy is confidential (and where recording conversations without peoples’ knowledge or consent is illegal), thousands have reached out to the Prevention Project Dunkelfeld, which specifically targets men and adolescent boys—both ones who have acted on their impulses and ones who haven’t—attracted to children.
This is another good article on nonoffending pedophiles:
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
Not really though. Most criminals are convinced they wont get caught or that the rules won't apply to them. In which case jail-as-a-deterrent doesn't work. There are many real life examples of this behavior, most prominently the death penalty's effect on murders (i.e. none).
Has there been any good research on whether increasing the consistency of punishment works in deterring criminals?
I'm actually a fan of the broken windows theory. It tends to work out horribly in practice, but as far as I can tell this seems to be because the people implementing it generally can't resist the urge to increase the severity of punishments as well, rather than decreasing them to maintain the same total punishment for a repeat offender.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Don't confuse principles being gooseshit with police being gooseshit. The idea is that the police should be a fixture of the community rather than an outside force that intercedes at its own whim to deal out punishment and death. Simply increasing the whimrate doesn't mean that that principle is being followed. The police need to actually fix the windows, whether this involves catching criminals, scolding litterers, or offering to escort drunk people safely to their destinations. A police officer's presence should always provide a net gain to everyone nearby.
That isn't Broken Windows, that's Community Policing.
Let's be clear here. Broken windows is specifically the sociological theory that uncorrected minor crimes lead to more serious crimes. People are more likely to commit burglary when vandalism goes unpunished and unrepaired.
As a theory, broken windows is not airtight. There is plenty of room for academic debate. But it's not gooseshit either. There's solid evidence behind it, but there are other valid ways of interpreting that evidence.
What is clearly gooseshit is the misapplication of the theory to justify overly punitive and often racist policing.
If it weren't for that misapplication, this would be an interesting discussion topic for social sciences nerds rather than a political issue.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Honestly, you don't even need to agree that raping child molesters is wrong to believe we should prevent prison rape. All you need is a lack of a morally unconscionable naivety that suggests that only guilty people go to prison, or that criminals willing to rape people are somehow going to perform that action according to a rigorous and correct moral framework (which apparently they developed right after getting to prison?), and not based on factors like size, race, age, gang affiliation, appearance, etc. Ditto for practical arguments about rehabilitation or medical expenses.
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Captain Marcusnow arrives the hour of actionRegistered Userregular
Let's be clear here. Broken windows is specifically the sociological theory that uncorrected minor crimes lead to more serious crimes. People are more likely to commit burglary when vandalism goes unpunished and unrepaired.
As a theory, broken windows is not airtight. There is plenty of room for academic debate. But it's not gooseshit either. There's solid evidence behind it, but there are other valid ways of interpreting that evidence.
What is clearly gooseshit is the misapplication of the theory to justify overly punitive and often racist policing.
If it weren't for that misapplication, this would be an interesting discussion topic for social sciences nerds rather than a political issue.
The guy that's still alive out of the original pair that developed the theory came right out and said that it's misapplied.
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
Wait, you're telling me that terrible things happen to 13 year olds that we send to adult prisons?
Even in a system that supports rape-sentences, prison-rape as commonly understood is anarchy. Prisoners are not supposed to execute punishments at their own whims. There is a schedule.
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
This is somewhat misleading. Despite the popular image of prison gangs raping men, the vast majority of male juveniles raped in prison are raped by female COs. It's a good argument for gender-segregating prison guards.
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
This is somewhat misleading. Despite the popular image of prison gangs raping men, the vast majority of male juveniles raped in prison are raped by female COs. It's a good argument for gender-segregating prison guards.
...How is that related to the issue of juvenile offenders being at greater risk in an adult prison? I didn't offer any gender qualifiers, and in any case, the Slate article's source suggests only that juvenile offenders sent to juvenile prison face likely female attackers.
Nowhere do I see a recommendation from an expert that suggests gender segregating guards will fix rape issues in jails. I assume that's your own supposition?
It's worth noting that NYC's overally crime rate did decline after Guliani implemented the Broken Windows police policy.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
This is somewhat misleading. Despite the popular image of prison gangs raping men, the vast majority of male juveniles raped in prison are raped by female COs. It's a good argument for gender-segregating prison guards.
...How is that related to the issue of juvenile offenders being at greater risk in an adult prison? I didn't offer any gender qualifiers, and in any case, the Slate article's source suggests only that juvenile offenders sent to juvenile prison face likely female attackers.
Nowhere do I see a recommendation from an expert that suggests gender segregating guards will fix rape issues in jails. I assume that's your own supposition?
OK, that's why I said "misleading" and not "wrong," since the popular inference is that juveniles are being raped by other inmates in adult prisons. I did not see that this was specific to complaints in juvenile settings, so if it's true that adult facilities significantly increase the likelihood of being raped, it may well be other inmates. However, it looks like that claim is disputed. In any case, it is a pretty good argument for gender-segregating staff in juvenile centers. Should we also for adult prisons? Yes, I think we should.
In the adult prison population, the consensus among experts is that about 18~ percent of prison rapes are conducted by guards, the rest by inmates. The relevant research was largely conducted by Cindy Struckman-Johnson in the late 90s.
This is the research source tied to the juvenile prison rape issue you brought up; it's certainly worthy of consideration, but it is one source and, frankly, the numbers are so extraordinary that they are also worthy of skepticsm & further scrutiny. We need more established data, in my opinion, before we can start citing rates as high as 90~ percent female-on-male rape as fact (especially given that this flies in the face of what's a more or less even gender split 'out in the wild' as it were).
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
I've always thought that one of the most dehumanizing things we do to our convicts is to take away their voting rights. I mean, supposedly after you go through prison you are supposed to have done your time and paid your dues, ready to be a member of society again. Yet for some reason, you still can't participate in this act that is supposed to be a fundamental right as a citizen of our republic? What the fuck for, except just to say "fuck you criminals"? Has the threat of losing the right to vote ever dissuaded someone from committing a criminal act? Are we worried all the felons are going to get together to form a large voting block and push through the "Murder is Totally Cool Now Guys Amendment"? I just don't get it.
Honestly I don't think there's a valid justification for not letting them vote, even while incarcerated (I don't consider "it's hard" valid when discussing rights or morality).
ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Pretty much the only crimes which I could entertain stripping voting power as a legitimate punishment would fit under the category of "harm to the democrating functioning of the state." Voter fraud, any illegal use of cash to influence stuff, etc.
Even then I'm not sure and it'd be mostly symbolic.
We let bigots vote, they've fucked me over more than any bloc of murderers or traitors could.
Pretty much the only crimes which I could entertain stripping voting power as a legitimate punishment would fit under the category of "harm to the democrating functioning of the state." Voter fraud, any illegal use of cash to influence stuff, etc.
Even then I'm not sure and it'd be mostly symbolic.
We let bigots vote, they've fucked me over more than any bloc of murderers or traitors could.
I'd argue those who would kill or torture the citizens of a democracy have necessarily forfeited voting power, if only because that's pretty much how voting suppression works in the worst parts of the world.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Pretty much the only crimes which I could entertain stripping voting power as a legitimate punishment would fit under the category of "harm to the democrating functioning of the state." Voter fraud, any illegal use of cash to influence stuff, etc.
Even then I'm not sure and it'd be mostly symbolic.
We let bigots vote, they've fucked me over more than any bloc of murderers or traitors could.
I'd argue those who would kill or torture the citizens of a democracy have necessarily forfeited voting power, if only because that's pretty much how voting suppression works in the worst parts of the world.
It's not really here, though. Our democracy is warped by things within the system anyway though so it's kinda.. whatever. Our murders are rarely political in nature.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
I've always thought that one of the most dehumanizing things we do to our convicts is to take away their voting rights. I mean, supposedly after you go through prison you are supposed to have done your time and paid your dues, ready to be a member of society again. Yet for some reason, you still can't participate in this act that is supposed to be a fundamental right as a citizen of our republic? What the fuck for, except just to say "fuck you criminals"? Has the threat of losing the right to vote ever dissuaded someone from committing a criminal act? Are we worried all the felons are going to get together to form a large voting block and push through the "Murder is Totally Cool Now Guys Amendment"? I just don't get it.
Honestly I don't think there's a valid justification for not letting them vote, even while incarcerated (I don't consider "it's hard" valid when discussing rights or morality).
I can think of a reason: Politics are bad enough to discuss face-to-face with relatives.
Prison isn't known for differences of opinion being discussed civilly. Political differences are already a cause for some violence in prison: imagine how much worse it'll be if they're allowed to vote? Not to mention the threat of violence if you don't vote a certain way - in other words, voter intimidation.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
I've always thought that one of the most dehumanizing things we do to our convicts is to take away their voting rights. I mean, supposedly after you go through prison you are supposed to have done your time and paid your dues, ready to be a member of society again. Yet for some reason, you still can't participate in this act that is supposed to be a fundamental right as a citizen of our republic? What the fuck for, except just to say "fuck you criminals"? Has the threat of losing the right to vote ever dissuaded someone from committing a criminal act? Are we worried all the felons are going to get together to form a large voting block and push through the "Murder is Totally Cool Now Guys Amendment"? I just don't get it.
Honestly I don't think there's a valid justification for not letting them vote, even while incarcerated (I don't consider "it's hard" valid when discussing rights or morality).
I can think of a reason: Politics are bad enough to discuss face-to-face with relatives.
Prison isn't known for differences of opinion being discussed civilly. Political differences are already a cause for some violence in prison: imagine how much worse it'll be if they're allowed to vote? Not to mention the threat of violence if you don't vote a certain way - in other words, voter intimidation.
so.. Beat the shit out of dogs until they go wild eyed and vicious, then refuse to feed them because they might attack each other over it
Please show me where in my post I said anything about the current climate inside prisons to be a good thing, or that once convicted of a crime, one should not have the ability to vote upon release from prison.
The ability to vote while incarcerated is not something I'm necessarily opposed to, but I was able to provide a reason why perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea.
Jail as 'hell' only works if you never release anyone from jail.
If shoplifting has a sentence of 100 years then okay.
But since it doesn't, by making prison 'hell', all you're doing is ensuring that people that come out are psychologically damaged and will have a serious chip on their shoulder regarding the way they've been treated. The worse it is, the more likely people released from prison will seek retribution against society at large.
That's not rehabilitation.
That's an eye for eye making the world blind.
I've always thought that one of the most dehumanizing things we do to our convicts is to take away their voting rights. I mean, supposedly after you go through prison you are supposed to have done your time and paid your dues, ready to be a member of society again. Yet for some reason, you still can't participate in this act that is supposed to be a fundamental right as a citizen of our republic? What the fuck for, except just to say "fuck you criminals"? Has the threat of losing the right to vote ever dissuaded someone from committing a criminal act? Are we worried all the felons are going to get together to form a large voting block and push through the "Murder is Totally Cool Now Guys Amendment"? I just don't get it.
Honestly I don't think there's a valid justification for not letting them vote, even while incarcerated (I don't consider "it's hard" valid when discussing rights or morality).
I can think of a reason: Politics are bad enough to discuss face-to-face with relatives.
Prison isn't known for differences of opinion being discussed civilly. Political differences are already a cause for some violence in prison: imagine how much worse it'll be if they're allowed to vote? Not to mention the threat of violence if you don't vote a certain way - in other words, voter intimidation.
I would be ecstatic if our correctional system evolved to a point where secret ballots were a possibility.
We can't even decide, as a nation, whether correspondence between a prisoner and his fucking lawyer should be private, not to mention legal and illegal mail censorship.
If we gave in-custody prisoners voting rights, I have no doubt that ballots would go missing, get altered, or replaced outright by prison staff. And who knows how many elections would pass before solid evidence of it were uncovered.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I would be ecstatic if our correctional system evolved to a point where secret ballots were a possibility.
We can't even decide, as a nation, whether correspondence between a prisoner and his fucking lawyer should be private, not to mention legal and illegal mail censorship.
If we gave in-custody prisoners voting rights, I have no doubt that ballots would go missing, get altered, or replaced outright by prison staff. And who knows how many elections would pass before solid evidence of it were uncovered.
I mean, who's word you going to trust? A prison's worth of inmates, or the king and his men warden and the guards?
I would be ecstatic if our correctional system evolved to a point where secret ballots were a possibility.
We can't even decide, as a nation, whether correspondence between a prisoner and his fucking lawyer should be private, not to mention legal and illegal mail censorship.
If we gave in-custody prisoners voting rights, I have no doubt that ballots would go missing, get altered, or replaced outright by prison staff. And who knows how many elections would pass before solid evidence of it were uncovered.
America on the whole is really good at finding vote tampering despite what the GOP would have you think.
It's a little silly to think the Prison staff would be allowed anywhere near the actual polling . It would have to be private security and use volunteers like any other polling station
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
America on the whole is really good at finding vote tampering despite what the GOP would have you think.
It's a little silly to think the prison staff would be allowed anywhere near the actual polling. It would have to be private security and use volunteers like any other polling station
It would have to be private security from a company that is not itself a correctional contractor, otherwise you're just choosing a different fox to guard the henhouse.
I'm cynical about this because prisons and correctional contractors have given me every reason to be cynical. We've already talked about rape (sometimes of minors) being treated like a feature rather than a bug; I mentioned censorship and surveillance. We've had multiple instances in recent years of medical contractors in prison reusing needles, in some cases giving prisoners hepatitis. We've had multiple instances in recent years of people getting thrown in jail or prison and serving time long past their sentences because the bureaucracy basically forgot about them.
If there is a way to fuck up a process, prison contractors will find it. If there is a way to abuse prisoners for profit, prison contractors will do it.
I want to start with reinstating voting rights for ex-convicts, and cleaning up (or abolishing) the private prison industry. After that we can work on providing ballots to people currently in custody.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I don't know. I'm generally on board with preventing people in prison from being able to vote. I'm okay with restoring that right post-incarceration, though.
I would be ecstatic if our correctional system evolved to a point where secret ballots were a possibility.
We can't even decide, as a nation, whether correspondence between a prisoner and his fucking lawyer should be private, not to mention legal and illegal mail censorship.
If we gave in-custody prisoners voting rights, I have no doubt that ballots would go missing, get altered, or replaced outright by prison staff. And who knows how many elections would pass before solid evidence of it were uncovered.
America on the whole is really good at finding vote tampering despite what the GOP would have you think.
It's a little silly to think the Prison staff would be allowed anywhere near the actual polling . It would have to be private security and use volunteers like any other polling station
I think in the past 20 years the amount of actual, illicit vote tampering can be counted on one hand.
the vast majority of "fraud" are people moving and failing to realize they need to update their address cause they entered a new district, and even this gets caught.
I imagine the guards would actually be in favor of abolishing private prisons, since they would likely do better as public employees. The wealthy wouldn't stand for it, of course.
The guards would take issue with our efforts to reduce prison populations.
Edit: A lot of these debates could probably be helped if they were framed as an improvement for both sides. Guards and police, for instance, would both have safer, less stressful jobs if the reforms discussed on this board were implemented.
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I would bet that the number of people who actually abuse children is just a small fraction of the overall population of people with those feelings and thoughts.
But, in America at least, you'll be hard pressed to have any significant research or, god forbid, actual therapeutic help for these people.
Germany was doing something interesting about it, but I cant find a link to the story, and I'm pretty sure the searches I just did to find it put me on a watchlist.
Exactly everything he just said.
People don't turn their lives around because of prison, the very few who manage it do so in spite of prison.
Broken windows works out horribly in practice because it's gooseshit.
Yeah focusing on minor crimes is literally so police look effective and elected officials can point to a stat those minor crimes fall under and say " I lowered that!"
Don't confuse principles being gooseshit with police being gooseshit. The idea is that the police should be a fixture of the community rather than an outside force that intercedes at its own whim to deal out punishment and death. Simply increasing the whimrate doesn't mean that that principle is being followed. The police need to actually fix the windows, whether this involves catching criminals, scolding litterers, or offering to escort drunk people safely to their destinations. A police officer's presence should always provide a net gain to everyone nearby.
That isn't Broken Windows, that's Community Policing.
It's mentioned in the Time article I linked above.
This is another good article on nonoffending pedophiles:
https://medium.com/matter/youre-16-youre-a-pedophile-you-dont-want-to-hurt-anyone-what-do-you-do-now-e11ce4b88bdb
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Let's be clear here. Broken windows is specifically the sociological theory that uncorrected minor crimes lead to more serious crimes. People are more likely to commit burglary when vandalism goes unpunished and unrepaired.
As a theory, broken windows is not airtight. There is plenty of room for academic debate. But it's not gooseshit either. There's solid evidence behind it, but there are other valid ways of interpreting that evidence.
What is clearly gooseshit is the misapplication of the theory to justify overly punitive and often racist policing.
If it weren't for that misapplication, this would be an interesting discussion topic for social sciences nerds rather than a political issue.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
The guy that's still alive out of the original pair that developed the theory came right out and said that it's misapplied.
Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, but it's certainly a data point to look at.
Didn't basically the whole nation's crime rate decline, while a massive degree of gentrification occurred in NYC during that period of time?
Not only that, the reduction began under Dinkins as well.
It correlates with falling lead levels in the environment due to the eradication of lead paint and leaded gasoline more than it does with bad policies that don't work.
I agree; it's just something to consider without outright dismissal.
...But actually this was the wrong thread for that post. >.<
Hey, did you guys know that juveniles are about 5 times more likely to get raped while in prison if put into an adult facility instead of a juvenile one? Something else to bear in mind whenever people start insisting that a young offender be tried and sentenced as an adult.
Wait, you're telling me that terrible things happen to 13 year olds that we send to adult prisons?
I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you. And offended.
This is somewhat misleading. Despite the popular image of prison gangs raping men, the vast majority of male juveniles raped in prison are raped by female COs. It's a good argument for gender-segregating prison guards.
...How is that related to the issue of juvenile offenders being at greater risk in an adult prison? I didn't offer any gender qualifiers, and in any case, the Slate article's source suggests only that juvenile offenders sent to juvenile prison face likely female attackers.
Nowhere do I see a recommendation from an expert that suggests gender segregating guards will fix rape issues in jails. I assume that's your own supposition?
OK, that's why I said "misleading" and not "wrong," since the popular inference is that juveniles are being raped by other inmates in adult prisons. I did not see that this was specific to complaints in juvenile settings, so if it's true that adult facilities significantly increase the likelihood of being raped, it may well be other inmates. However, it looks like that claim is disputed. In any case, it is a pretty good argument for gender-segregating staff in juvenile centers. Should we also for adult prisons? Yes, I think we should.
This is the research source tied to the juvenile prison rape issue you brought up; it's certainly worthy of consideration, but it is one source and, frankly, the numbers are so extraordinary that they are also worthy of skepticsm & further scrutiny. We need more established data, in my opinion, before we can start citing rates as high as 90~ percent female-on-male rape as fact (especially given that this flies in the face of what's a more or less even gender split 'out in the wild' as it were).
Honestly I don't think there's a valid justification for not letting them vote, even while incarcerated (I don't consider "it's hard" valid when discussing rights or morality).
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Even then I'm not sure and it'd be mostly symbolic.
We let bigots vote, they've fucked me over more than any bloc of murderers or traitors could.
I'd argue those who would kill or torture the citizens of a democracy have necessarily forfeited voting power, if only because that's pretty much how voting suppression works in the worst parts of the world.
It's not really here, though. Our democracy is warped by things within the system anyway though so it's kinda.. whatever. Our murders are rarely political in nature.
I can think of a reason: Politics are bad enough to discuss face-to-face with relatives.
Prison isn't known for differences of opinion being discussed civilly. Political differences are already a cause for some violence in prison: imagine how much worse it'll be if they're allowed to vote? Not to mention the threat of violence if you don't vote a certain way - in other words, voter intimidation.
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so.. Beat the shit out of dogs until they go wild eyed and vicious, then refuse to feed them because they might attack each other over it
The ability to vote while incarcerated is not something I'm necessarily opposed to, but I was able to provide a reason why perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea.
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Except it's a secret ballot.
So this argument makes no sense.
We can't even decide, as a nation, whether correspondence between a prisoner and his fucking lawyer should be private, not to mention legal and illegal mail censorship.
If we gave in-custody prisoners voting rights, I have no doubt that ballots would go missing, get altered, or replaced outright by prison staff. And who knows how many elections would pass before solid evidence of it were uncovered.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I mean, who's word you going to trust? A prison's worth of inmates, or the king and his men warden and the guards?
America on the whole is really good at finding vote tampering despite what the GOP would have you think.
It's a little silly to think the Prison staff would be allowed anywhere near the actual polling . It would have to be private security and use volunteers like any other polling station
It would have to be private security from a company that is not itself a correctional contractor, otherwise you're just choosing a different fox to guard the henhouse.
I'm cynical about this because prisons and correctional contractors have given me every reason to be cynical. We've already talked about rape (sometimes of minors) being treated like a feature rather than a bug; I mentioned censorship and surveillance. We've had multiple instances in recent years of medical contractors in prison reusing needles, in some cases giving prisoners hepatitis. We've had multiple instances in recent years of people getting thrown in jail or prison and serving time long past their sentences because the bureaucracy basically forgot about them.
If there is a way to fuck up a process, prison contractors will find it. If there is a way to abuse prisoners for profit, prison contractors will do it.
I want to start with reinstating voting rights for ex-convicts, and cleaning up (or abolishing) the private prison industry. After that we can work on providing ballots to people currently in custody.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I think in the past 20 years the amount of actual, illicit vote tampering can be counted on one hand.
the vast majority of "fraud" are people moving and failing to realize they need to update their address cause they entered a new district, and even this gets caught.
The guards would take issue with our efforts to reduce prison populations.
Edit: A lot of these debates could probably be helped if they were framed as an improvement for both sides. Guards and police, for instance, would both have safer, less stressful jobs if the reforms discussed on this board were implemented.