This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.
It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.
How does one expect a headless organization to condemn something?
If I just made a twitter account, condemned cop killing, and tagged it BLM: Mission accomplished?
I suspect not, as I obviously don't speak for the movement as a whole. No one does, and because no one can be kicked out for being an asshole, we will get locked in a cycle of expecting appologies and/or condemnation, from a person that doesn't exist, every time someone, somewhere, is an asshole.
Americans did all those things, is America expected to appologize? No, because identifying with a group does make us not make us responsible for unsanctioned activites perpetrated by others within that group; even when the perpetrators claim they did it on our behalf.
Unless BLM sanctioned these activities, they are not responsible for them. Condemnation would be nice, but shouldn't be required, and to ask for an apology is a straight up dick move.
But this is the same thing GruberGump ran into--BLM can't condemn OR sanction anything, because it has no leadership. It's a movement and a hashtag, not an organization, and that makes it very easy for its opponents to blame it for everything done in its name. I could start a twitter called iheartBLM and use it to laud cop killings, and that's just as much of an official BLM statement.
This is one reason why movements need faces if they're going to accomplish anything.
I agree in general, but I don't think the movement itself needs a face, they just need organizations and people with notable faces to push for things under their banner or not. BLM can still be an efficiency rallying cry used by those compartmentalized orgs without making them accountable.
Campaign Zero, for example, could assume a face, and become an organization who supports the general movement, while not being responsible for, or explicitly endorsed by BLM.
A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.
Interesting parallel there.
The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations
And that's separate from the War with the US.
The Japanese person has also been living in a country that denies it was ever in a war and has an actual comic that paints the Axis powers as light hearted idiots that don't mean any harm. They as a culture are really messed up .
All of East Asia culture is severely messed up and racist against itself. They hate not only the symbols, but the people and the culture, and it goes every which way. It's all very medieval.
Ethnic prejudice is pretty widespread throughout human history. I think that white people and westerners in general have a tendency to think that Asian racial prejudices are strange largely because we don't recognize the vast differences between the various ethnic groups. It doesn't make sense to a lot of white folk why all these groups hate one another because their cultures are all sort of mixed together to form some idea of "asian."
Relatively, and speaking from an abundance of personal experiences that grant me a small amount of validity - it's pretty bad. And the reasons are there, just or unjust, but always horribly unfixable. They've been having basically a race war for longer than pretty much anyone, and the fact that the modern age put a stop to its overt face does not hinder the undercurrents so massive even I can see.
Even though I have the background to be able to, I fail to identify with the hatred because there must be a better way to progress without further isolation and discrimination. And even people I talk to who buy into this admit that this is not their fight. They're continuing the feud just because someone told them they should, and they haven't given a second thought to reconciliation.
That's why I at least want the option explored here for a method that brings everyone together, regardless of personal history.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.
It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.
How does one expect a headless organization to condemn something?
If I just made a twitter account, condemned cop killing, and tagged it BLM: Mission accomplished?
I suspect not, as I obviously don't speak for the movement as a whole. No one does, and because no one can be kicked out for being an asshole, we will get locked in a cycle of expecting appologies and/or condemnation, from a person that doesn't exist, every time someone, somewhere, is an asshole.
Americans did all those things, is America expected to appologize? No, because identifying with a group does make us not make us responsible for unsanctioned activites perpetrated by others within that group; even when the perpetrators claim they did it on our behalf.
Unless BLM sanctioned these activities, they are not responsible for them. Condemnation would be nice, but shouldn't be required, and to ask for an apology is a straight up dick move.
But this is the same thing GruberGump ran into--BLM can't condemn OR sanction anything, because it has no leadership. It's a movement and a hashtag, not an organization, and that makes it very easy for its opponents to blame it for everything done in its name. I could start a twitter called iheartBLM and use it to laud cop killings, and that's just as much of an official BLM statement.
This is one reason why movements need faces if they're going to accomplish anything.
What? GG absolutely had leaders and organization. It was also envisioned from the start as a harassment campaign that has had a hugely negative impact on the game industry as a whole. They are proud of the heinous shit people associate with them and as far as i know haven't apologize either way. This example is flawed from the start.
Edit: I Don't want to get wrapped up in a stupid tangent, so I left it in a spoiler so any quotes make sense.
Fuzzytadpole on
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
"All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.
But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"
Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"
Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.
And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.
Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.
Right, and I never said otherwise.
But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?
Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.
If I see a white person post that yes I will assume they are casually racist or unaware of why that's racist.
A lot of white people don't understand things are offensive! I'm asked where I'm from constantly and people are legitimately stunned when I say Pittsburgh. The typical follow up was "No before you moved here". That used to really hurt me when I was younger.
There are people who cannot grasp that non white people aren't usually just normal people with similar struggles and backgrounds. I'm glad you can but you're ironically in a minority
The bolded is the part I'm referring to specifically.
I feel that this whole ALM/BML thing hasn't reached the cultural awareness critical mass where everybody should just be aware of it.
So if you see someone saying ALM is a better slogan, correct them and explain to them why it's wrong, don't just write them off as a racist off to derail the BLM movement on purpose.
Anecdotally, I still have people saying to my face that I'm not Afrikaans, when I say I am. Now it's not in the same league as what you experience of course, but I can say that it definitely sucks even if they don't mean anything mean by it.
Edit: I should mention, when this thing originally popped up, and people started talking about using BLM vs ALM, people in this forum explained the differences quite well, and why the phrase ALM is problematic. They didn't just call the poster a racist and move on.
"All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.
But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"
Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"
Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.
And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.
Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.
Right, and I never said otherwise.
But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?
Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.
If I see a white person post that yes I will assume they are casually racist or unaware of why that's racist.
A lot of white people don't understand things are offensive! I'm asked where I'm from constantly and people are legitimately stunned when I say Pittsburgh. The typical follow up was "No before you moved here". That used to really hurt me when I was younger.
There are people who cannot grasp that non white people aren't usually just normal people with similar struggles and backgrounds. I'm glad you can but you're ironically in a minority
The bolded is the part I'm referring to specifically.
I feel that this whole ALM/BML thing hasn't reached the cultural awareness critical mass where everybody should just be aware of it.
So if you see someone saying ALM is a better slogan, correct them and explain to them why it's wrong, don't just write them off as a racist off to derail the BLM movement on purpose.
Anecdotally, I still have people saying to my face that I'm not Afrikaans, when I say I am. Now it's not in the same league as what you experience of course, but I can say that it definitely sucks even if they don't mean anything mean by it.
Edit: I should mention, when this thing originally popped up, and people started talking about using BLM vs ALM, people in this forum explained the differences quite well, and why the phrase ALM is problematic. They didn't just call the poster a racist and move on.
Yes. And that's exactly why anyone using ALM is almost certainly doing so because it's an anti-BLM slogan. Cause in what other context are they gonna hear it?
A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.
Interesting parallel there.
The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations
And that's separate from the War with the US.
I disagree. I think there's an important distinction between the rising sun flag and the swastika or Confederate flag, in that the latter are directly tied to specific, short-lived regimes and the former is not. The rising sun flag was adopted decades before the Japanese annexation of Korea or invasion of China and existed as a popular Japanese symbol for centuries before that. So while no one in the South can plausibly make a case for using the confederate flag that does not invoke the Confederacy, I think someone in Japan can use the rising sun flag and honestly not be invoking wartime Japan. That makes the situation more complicated, IMHO.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I will join ACLM the moment christians are being gunned down by police on a frequent basis.
They are, actually, just not here. Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world.
But who wants to bet that that particular hashtag was not made by someone in South Sudan, and in fact does not refer to people outside the U.S. at all. Any takers?
I will join ACLM the moment christians are being gunned down by police on a frequent basis.
They are, actually, just not here. Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world.
But who wants to bet that that particular hashtag was not made by someone in South Sudan, and in fact does not refer to people outside the U.S. at all. Any takers?
Bleh, beat me to it.
But hey, we could start a whole mess of hashtags at this rate.
#allmigrantlivesmatter (europe)
#allpalestinianlivesmatter / #alljewishlivesmatter
#alllivesmatter (but rebranded to be an anti-abortion thing)
I will join ACLM the moment christians are being gunned down by police on a frequent basis.
They are, actually, just not here. Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world.
But who wants to bet that that particular hashtag was not made by someone in South Sudan, and in fact does not refer to people outside the U.S. at all. Any takers?
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
I will join ACLM the moment christians are being gunned down by police on a frequent basis.
They are, actually, just not here. Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world.
But who wants to bet that that particular hashtag was not made by someone in South Sudan, and in fact does not refer to people outside the U.S. at all. Any takers?
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
This statement is rather silly. What does "the most oppressive religious group in the world" even mean?
If you gonna have this silly conversation, one of you two should pull some numbers cause it's fully possible for christians to be the most numerous persecuted religious minority. (I don't know either way really)
And when you do that, perhaps another thread where it won't be off topic?
Ugh. Had to deal with an old friend today spouting off '#bluelivesmatter' - it was thoroughly unsavory, and he couldn't see why appropriating the terminology of a racial equality movement in light of recent history of excess police force was perhaps... bad..
I have a feeling this <adjective>livesmatters term is going to get lampooned in the same fashion that -gate gets tossed onto every scandal, which is a bloody shame, as BLM has very real, accurate criticisms and desires.
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Captain Marcusnow arrives the hour of actionRegistered Userregular
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
The International Society for Human Rights, a German secular nonprofit that's a participant in the Council of Europe (that was declared an enemy of the state by East Germany) estimates that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination are directed against Christians. A hundred thousand of my fellow believers die every year for their beliefs and more of us have been martyred in the 20th century than in the past 2,000 years combined.
It's a thing. Just not in the U.S., which is something that my coreligionists should remind themselves every time they cry wolf.
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
The International Society for Human Rights, a German secular nonprofit that's a participant in the Council of Europe (that was declared an enemy of the state by East Germany) estimates that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination are directed against Christians. A hundred thousand of my fellow believers die every year for their beliefs and more of us have been martyred in the 20th century than in the past 2,000 years combined.
It's a thing. Just not in the U.S., which is something that my coreligionists should remind themselves every time they cry wolf.
Took it to PM becasue this is a joke and off topic.
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
The International Society for Human Rights, a German secular nonprofit that's a participant in the Council of Europe (that was declared an enemy of the state by East Germany) estimates that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination are directed against Christians. A hundred thousand of my fellow believers die every year for their beliefs and more of us have been martyred in the 20th century than in the past 2,000 years combined.
It's a thing. Just not in the U.S., which is something that my coreligionists should remind themselves every time they cry wolf.
Took it to PM becasue this is a joke and off topic.
It doesn't look like a joke at all. It looks like a well sourced point.
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
The International Society for Human Rights, a German secular nonprofit that's a participant in the Council of Europe (that was declared an enemy of the state by East Germany) estimates that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination are directed against Christians. A hundred thousand of my fellow believers die every year for their beliefs and more of us have been martyred in the 20th century than in the past 2,000 years combined.
It's a thing. Just not in the U.S., which is something that my coreligionists should remind themselves every time they cry wolf.
Took it to PM becasue this is a joke and off topic.
It doesn't look like a joke at all. It looks like a well sourced point.
If talking about every kind of ________ lives matter permutation is on-topic then this thread is in for quite a journey
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
This thread does not seem capable of staying on topic for longer than three posts at a time.
However, I know of a fool proof way to ensure that there are no more off topic posts!
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Posts
I agree in general, but I don't think the movement itself needs a face, they just need organizations and people with notable faces to push for things under their banner or not. BLM can still be an efficiency rallying cry used by those compartmentalized orgs without making them accountable.
Campaign Zero, for example, could assume a face, and become an organization who supports the general movement, while not being responsible for, or explicitly endorsed by BLM.
Relatively, and speaking from an abundance of personal experiences that grant me a small amount of validity - it's pretty bad. And the reasons are there, just or unjust, but always horribly unfixable. They've been having basically a race war for longer than pretty much anyone, and the fact that the modern age put a stop to its overt face does not hinder the undercurrents so massive even I can see.
Even though I have the background to be able to, I fail to identify with the hatred because there must be a better way to progress without further isolation and discrimination. And even people I talk to who buy into this admit that this is not their fight. They're continuing the feud just because someone told them they should, and they haven't given a second thought to reconciliation.
That's why I at least want the option explored here for a method that brings everyone together, regardless of personal history.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Edit: I Don't want to get wrapped up in a stupid tangent, so I left it in a spoiler so any quotes make sense.
The bolded is the part I'm referring to specifically.
I feel that this whole ALM/BML thing hasn't reached the cultural awareness critical mass where everybody should just be aware of it.
So if you see someone saying ALM is a better slogan, correct them and explain to them why it's wrong, don't just write them off as a racist off to derail the BLM movement on purpose.
Anecdotally, I still have people saying to my face that I'm not Afrikaans, when I say I am. Now it's not in the same league as what you experience of course, but I can say that it definitely sucks even if they don't mean anything mean by it.
Edit: I should mention, when this thing originally popped up, and people started talking about using BLM vs ALM, people in this forum explained the differences quite well, and why the phrase ALM is problematic. They didn't just call the poster a racist and move on.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Yes. And that's exactly why anyone using ALM is almost certainly doing so because it's an anti-BLM slogan. Cause in what other context are they gonna hear it?
Guess where that came from?
I disagree. I think there's an important distinction between the rising sun flag and the swastika or Confederate flag, in that the latter are directly tied to specific, short-lived regimes and the former is not. The rising sun flag was adopted decades before the Japanese annexation of Korea or invasion of China and existed as a popular Japanese symbol for centuries before that. So while no one in the South can plausibly make a case for using the confederate flag that does not invoke the Confederacy, I think someone in Japan can use the rising sun flag and honestly not be invoking wartime Japan. That makes the situation more complicated, IMHO.
I will join ACLM the moment christians are being gunned down by police on a frequent basis.
Well, Jesus was the original victim of police brutality, right?
Well, I mean, alot of blacks are also christians...
They are, actually, just not here. Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world.
But who wants to bet that that particular hashtag was not made by someone in South Sudan, and in fact does not refer to people outside the U.S. at all. Any takers?
Bleh, beat me to it.
But hey, we could start a whole mess of hashtags at this rate.
#allmigrantlivesmatter (europe)
#allpalestinianlivesmatter / #alljewishlivesmatter
#alllivesmatter (but rebranded to be an anti-abortion thing)
And so on.
Thats right, I did forget that the Carolina church shooting was based on an
lol nope, christians are not the most persecuted religious group in the world. That particular bit of truthiness is pushed by American rightwingers to lay the basis for their own persecution complex.
Christians are, however, the most oppressive religious group in the world. Bar none.
This statement is rather silly. What does "the most oppressive religious group in the world" even mean?
If you gonna have this silly conversation, one of you two should pull some numbers cause it's fully possible for christians to be the most numerous persecuted religious minority. (I don't know either way really)
And when you do that, perhaps another thread where it won't be off topic?
I have a feeling this <adjective>livesmatters term is going to get lampooned in the same fashion that -gate gets tossed onto every scandal, which is a bloody shame, as BLM has very real, accurate criticisms and desires.
The International Society for Human Rights, a German secular nonprofit that's a participant in the Council of Europe (that was declared an enemy of the state by East Germany) estimates that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination are directed against Christians. A hundred thousand of my fellow believers die every year for their beliefs and more of us have been martyred in the 20th century than in the past 2,000 years combined.
It's a thing. Just not in the U.S., which is something that my coreligionists should remind themselves every time they cry wolf.
Took it to PM becasue this is a joke and off topic.
It doesn't look like a joke at all. It looks like a well sourced point.
If talking about every kind of ________ lives matter permutation is on-topic then this thread is in for quite a journey
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
ALM as a counter hits on this point directly.
Which is another reason ALM is so stupid, its countering an argument no one made
However, I know of a fool proof way to ensure that there are no more off topic posts!