I think there's nothing wrong with the design but the chicken-shit excuses made for it. However, I still think most of the outrage is just as pretentious as Kojima's narrative hogwash excuse.
Yes it's so pretentious to want women designed by men to titillate to wear clothes and not be designed to titillate
No, it's pretentious to act offended by something that is clearly a design misstep and not some kind of commentary on society at large. The stupid camera angles didn't belong. The obvious focus doesn't feel right because the character is better than that. But begrudging the outfit is just silly when the real problem is the leering we're forced to do when I would have been fine with her bathing suit camo had I not been forced to stare at her ass at every turn when I was busy trying to watch her murder zombie-soldiers.
Quiet is great and she is beautiful. But she could have been beautiful without being shoved down our throats. On the other hand I'm not going to go out of my way to pretend like this is an affront to women or society when all it is is a design blunder
Taken in a vacuum, this is just a design blunder.
But the world is not a vacuum, and this is yet another of the thousands of "design blunders" that is the systemic objectification of women in media.
Quiet clearly panders to the perv in me. There's no doubt about it. I just don't see the problem in that. I am that shallow, and I don't see a problem in that.
When I feel like it, I pay for the product *Beautiful Woman* in real life. Prostitution is perfectly legal where I live, and quite often it's a beautiful experience for me. So it would be quite hypocritical of me to see anything wrong with sexual objectifiction.
Sure, in your judgement, that might be a bad thing, but really, who are you to judge me? Or the people who let themselves be objectified in that manner, or any other.
Many adult males are uncomfortable with a woman who doesn't feel obligated to embrace modesty or are entirely in touch with their own sexuality. Not saying the character's outfit is practical, but in terms of the nature of the character I can see why so many male gamers take issue. Nonchalant appreciation of the attractiveness of one's self can be intimidating to some people. I agree the concept offered in MGSV is pandering but at its core it does tap into some learned male behavior that is anachronistic and needs to wither and die so that women don't have to feel bad about looking at their bodies and feeling pride. However that's a sociological discussion that may not actually apply under the circumstances but it definitely explains a lot of the outcry. "What do you mean she doesn't like clothes?" Well... that's actually a thing. But it's an odd notion to swallow for some people. I'm not indicting anyone's sensibilities just pointing out some old timeynotions that seem culturally hereditary.
The problem is Quiet was created by men. If a woman wants to dress like that, that's cool. Dress however you want. I won't hold it against any cosplayers who dress up (or down?) like Quiet. It just gets weird when a female character created by men is so scantily clad.
Even that's not an acceptable excuse.
Bayonetta was created by men.
Bayonetta exposes herself more to the camera than Quiet could ever DREAM to.
And yet they way Bayonetta the videogame treats Bayonetta the character is about 100 million times less exploitative than than how MGSV treat's Quiet's body.
Bayonetta is a special case too because her design and character end up catering to a more niche audience. On other message boards, there are sometimes discussions that pop up because despite the game playing up the sexuality many people simply don't find the character attractive. One writer somewhere pointed out that it's due to Bayonetta being something for the kink community and not necessarily the general T&A audience. The result is that she's not that sexual for many but ultra refined fetish fuel for both men and women with a specific interest. It's something very, very different in many regards from the norm.
I also recall a brief interview with the character designer for Bayonetta herself. She mentioned that originally Bayonetta didn't have glasses but the project lead requested them largely due to him thinking that women in glasses were cute. So she added glasses to Bayonetta and then decided to add glasses to every other character in the game too to have fun with the lead.
Guys, Kojima won. We can't stop talking about Quiet.
Meanwhile, my wife thinks Quiet is a badass, and when I was playing a couple missions with D-Dog last night, she flat out asked me why I wasn't using Quiet because she was better looking than a dog anyway.
The defense for Quiet is as simple, as it is unassailable. Whoever made her, made her how he liked to, and what he wanted to make. What in the seven blazes is wrong with being a pervy man who likes scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass? Nothing.
Could just as well have been a pervy girl liking scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass, that made Quiet up (even though I'm fairly sure it wasn't).
Guys, Kojima won. We can't stop talking about Quiet.
Meanwhile, my wife thinks Quiet is a badass, and when I was playing a couple missions with D-Dog last night, she flat out asked me why I wasn't using Quiet because she was better looking than a dog anyway.
Poor DD.
For added context, does your wife have a preference between dogs or cats?
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Guys, Kojima won. We can't stop talking about Quiet.
Meanwhile, my wife thinks Quiet is a badass, and when I was playing a couple missions with D-Dog last night, she flat out asked me why I wasn't using Quiet because she was better looking than a dog anyway.
Poor DD.
For added context, does your wife have a preference between dogs or cats?
The defense for Quiet is as simple, as it is unassailable. Whoever made her, made her how he liked to, and what he wanted to make. What in the seven blazes is wrong with being a pervy man who likes scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass? Nothing.
Could just as well have been a pervy girl liking scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass, that made Quiet up (even though I'm fairly sure it wasn't).
Everything is assailable, but not everything needs defense. You like quiet and aren't ashamed to say it. Good for you. But you can see how others may not share or agree with your paradigm. Others may contend over the basic assumptions and experiences that make up your thought. My own justification, if you can call it that, is quite different from yours. No need to be so forceful or absolute, else why even get into argument? What if your objective here? If it is to say that you are not ashamed, no need for the fluff. Your reasoning is subjective, so keep it subjective. No use in projecting it on others.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think there's nothing wrong with the design but the chicken-shit excuses made for it. However, I still think most of the outrage is just as pretentious as Kojima's narrative hogwash excuse.
Yes it's so pretentious to want women designed by men to titillate to wear clothes and not be designed to titillate
No, it's pretentious to act offended by something that is clearly a design misstep and not some kind of commentary on society at large. The stupid camera angles didn't belong. The obvious focus doesn't feel right because the character is better than that. But begrudging the outfit is just silly when the real problem is the leering we're forced to do when I would have been fine with her bathing suit camo had I not been forced to stare at her ass at every turn when I was busy trying to watch her murder zombie-soldiers.
Quiet is great and she is beautiful. But she could have been beautiful without being shoved down our throats. On the other hand I'm not going to go out of my way to pretend like this is an affront to women or society when all it is is a design blunder
Taken in a vacuum, this is just a design blunder.
But the world is not a vacuum, and this is yet another of the thousands of "design blunders" that is the systemic objectification of women in media.
Or maybe you, like so many others, choose to focus on that and ignore the overwhelming swing in the other direction in media. Even past entries in this series have included female characters who weren't silly eye candy. But other companies have gone crazy with the frequent and consistently well-executed "leading female" to counter the traditional "leading male" while still maintaining the differences and avoiding the looming shadow of forced gender identity crisis. In the end, though, all this rage is standard internet behavior. Outrage is rampant. People love a cause.
I remember being forced to look at Miranda Lawson's butt every two seconds in ME2. It was irritating but I decided to ignore the designers attempts to shove her butt in my face and instead paid attention to the quality of the character. I missed Ashley, but they gave her back in ME3.... complete with fake n bake tan and flat iron treatment... I rolled my eyes but dropped it there because no matter how much the old guard tries to reinforce the traditional pandering they fuck up and give us gems like Bonnie McFarlane and Jack and The Boss. Hell, we've had Samus Aran for generations of gaming. And let's not forget Mirror's Edge.
You don't have to sift through the bargain bins anymore. The appreciation for well constructed female characters is there. The sexuality of design will never disappear, however. That's the way that is. Attraction dictates design. If I think it's boring or uninteresting to look at I won't look at it. I do, agree, however, that sexy can be achieved without gratuitous objectification.
Quiet can wear a bikini. Just don't shove her boobs in my face while she's exhibiting what ACTUALLY makes her awesome. I can see them just fine, thanks. That's great. But seriously... calm down with the camera.
EDIT: Like, seriously, in the helicopter.... "Quiet, sit still, please... Jesus Christ what is your problem?" I think you can definitely say that's fucking gratuitous. But I don't think the outfit is the issue. I think being told what I should be interested in by clever camera angles is grating. Especially in a game where facial animation and design is so unbelievably well executed.
The defense for Quiet is as simple, as it is unassailable. Whoever made her, made her how he liked to, and what he wanted to make. What in the seven blazes is wrong with being a pervy man who likes scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass? Nothing.
That it happens far too often and objectifies women. You know, that it's harmful.
I think there's nothing wrong with the design but the chicken-shit excuses made for it. However, I still think most of the outrage is just as pretentious as Kojima's narrative hogwash excuse.
Yes it's so pretentious to want women designed by men to titillate to wear clothes and not be designed to titillate
No, it's pretentious to act offended by something that is clearly a design misstep and not some kind of commentary on society at large. The stupid camera angles didn't belong. The obvious focus doesn't feel right because the character is better than that. But begrudging the outfit is just silly when the real problem is the leering we're forced to do when I would have been fine with her bathing suit camo had I not been forced to stare at her ass at every turn when I was busy trying to watch her murder zombie-soldiers.
Quiet is great and she is beautiful. But she could have been beautiful without being shoved down our throats. On the other hand I'm not going to go out of my way to pretend like this is an affront to women or society when all it is is a design blunder
Taken in a vacuum, this is just a design blunder.
But the world is not a vacuum, and this is yet another of the thousands of "design blunders" that is the systemic objectification of women in media.
Or maybe you, like so many others, choose to focus on that and ignore the overwhelming swing in the other direction in media. Even past entries in this series have included female characters who weren't silly eye candy. But other companies have gone crazy with the frequent and consistently well-executed "leading female" to counter the traditional "leading male" while still maintaining the differences and avoiding the looming shadow of forced gender identity crisis. In the end, though, all this rage is standard internet behavior. Outrage is rampant. People love a cause.
I remember being forced to look at Miranda Lawson's butt every two seconds in ME2. It was irritating but I decided to ignore the designers attempts to shove her butt in my face and instead paid attention to the quality of the character. I missed Ashley, but they gave her back in ME3.... complete with fake n bake tan and flat iron treatment... I rolled my eyes but dropped it there because no matter how much the old guard tries to reinforce the traditional pandering they fuck up and give us gems like Bonnie McFarlane and Jack and The Boss. Hell, we've had Samus Aran for generations of gaming. And let's not forget Mirror's Edge.
You don't have to sift through the bargain bins anymore. The appreciation for well constructed female characters is there. The sexuality of design will never disappear, however. That's the way that is. Attraction dictates design. If I think it's boring or uninteresting to look at I won't look at it. I do, agree, however, that sexy can be achieved without gratuitous objectification.
Quiet can wear a bikini. Just don't shove her boobs in my face while she's exhibiting what ACTUALLY makes her awesome. I can see them just fine, thanks. That's great. But seriously... calm down with the camera.
What overwhelming swing? How many strong female characters that are wearing normal clothing are there versus how many are just wearing bikinis or armor that are just metal bikinis? How many games resist the urge to male gaze the females every chance they get?
What the hell. I was replaying mission 4, "C2W", to get some more objectives. Chopper arrives on scene, tells me to destroy comms stuff, then says it's already destroyed and... the mission is done and I go to the reward screen?
That's weird. Maybe it knew you had already destroyed the blue coms equipment or the dishes and they haven't been replaced/respawned yet? I'd think it would auto respawn if it's for the mission though. edit: Did you go from the ACC or direct from the field?
vagrant_winds had this issue preventing 100% completion, I think it's a serious bug
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It seems every armored vehicle suddenly gained all seeing eye and can see no matter where I am even with the chicken hat on and has a massive damage boost, they can one shot my summoned tanks with the full durability bar. I'm rendered useless whenever i'm waiting for new ammo to drop and my helicopter bursts in to flames seconds later after arriving. And when I do get near the end, quiet gets a random bullet out of nowhere to the face that takes away a quarter of her health.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries. That makes Quiet's design and camera focus stand out all the more like a sore thumb to me.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Is there a limit to the number of people you can have in your waiting room? I'm wondering if I should start firing people.
I think it fires people automatically if they're left in your waiting room for a certain time?
Unless you lock them to keep it from doing so.
Unless it raises when you add more platforms, the population cap I keep hitting is 700 total.
On a related tangent, Mother Base must be maintenance intensive given how it is a massive structure in seawater. I have to assume that Outer Heaven was created to keep operating costs low on the insistence of all the accountants turned soldier/mercenary that were ballooned into servitude.
I was regularly starting to have people auto-dismiss from the waiting room after hitting a cap. Then I got an FOB and no longer get auto-dismissals as I have plenty of spots now open.
So it does seem to raise when you get more platforms. I think it's just that the waiting room itself has a maximum capacity.
Though despite the fact that I can now take on a lot more recruits and may even want some losers to pad out the security team, I find myself retaining the much more aggressive job candidate screening process from when I was filled up.
Have no skills above C level? That's a knifing.
Have a troublemaker specialty? That's a knifing.
Refuse to answer questions when held up and think about trying to melee me in response with either of the above? Oh you bet that's a knifing.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
This seems incredibly likely, sadly. They wouldn't even let him finish this thing. If they make another one, I'll be shocked. If they manage to make another one as good as this or any of the others, I'd be double shocked. This isn't even finished and it's one of the greatest gameplay experiences of the past several years. But man, if it were finished, and the story reached a satisfying conclusion at the end of the game, it'd be so great!
Also, if I could drop in Walker Gears c'mon people. Oh and
The boss fights all sucked. That was disappointing.
I can't help but feel disappointed in this game. If only it were finished.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
Nah, because it lets others think about it as well, and possibly add their voice in, possibly making it so other game designers see "oh, there's a market here for games that treat women with respect all the way through! Maybe we should do that!"
That's weird. Maybe it knew you had already destroyed the blue coms equipment or the dishes and they haven't been replaced/respawned yet? I'd think it would auto respawn if it's for the mission though. edit: Did you go from the ACC or direct from the field?
Is there a limit to the number of people you can have in your waiting room? I'm wondering if I should start firing people.
I think it fires people automatically if they're left in your waiting room for a certain time?
Unless you lock them to keep it from doing so.
Unless it raises when you add more platforms, the population cap I keep hitting is 700 total.
On a related tangent, Mother Base must be maintenance intensive given how it is a massive structure in seawater. I have to assume that Outer Heaven was created to keep operating costs low on the insistence of all the accountants turned soldier/mercenary that were ballooned into servitude.
I was regularly starting to have people auto-dismiss from the waiting room after hitting a cap. Then I got an FOB and no longer get auto-dismissals as I have plenty of spots now open.
So it does seem to raise when you get more platforms. I think it's just that the waiting room itself has a maximum capacity.
Though despite the fact that I can now take on a lot more recruits and may even want some losers to pad out the security team, I find myself retaining the much more aggressive job candidate screening process from when I was filled up.
Have no skills above C level? That's a knifing.
Have a troublemaker specialty? That's a knifing.
Refuse to answer questions when held up and think about trying to melee me in response with either of the above? Oh you bet that's a knifing.
My current max is 1400 total. FOB is a way to raise the total quickly and cheaply, though levels 3 and 4 of the platforms are more expensive (IIRC) than the corresponding Mother Base version.
Two weeks in, 120 hours in (ok, like 10-15 have been idling), this is my GOTY hands down. (I've yet to finish it, though.)
( < . . .
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mastertheheroProfessional Video Editor & Book AuthorRegistered Userregular
The comms stuff do respawn eventually, so I would say wait for the equipment to pop up again then try the mission.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
This seems incredibly likely, sadly. They wouldn't even let him finish this thing. If they make another one, I'll be shocked. If they manage to make another one as good as this or any of the others, I'd be double shocked. This isn't even finished and it's one of the greatest gameplay experiences of the past several years. But man, if it were finished, and the story reached a satisfying conclusion at the end of the game, it'd be so great!
Also, if I could drop in Walker Gears c'mon people. Oh and
The boss fights all sucked. That was disappointing.
I can't help but feel disappointed in this game. If only it were finished.
The Human Resources personnel that I have previously fultoned object to the practice, but Balloon or Bullet is my vetting SOP.
Edit:
I am also kinda getting to the point where I might ditch the non-lethal weapons and just kneecap potential recruits so I can play around with more of the weapons.
GONG-00 on
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
The comms stuff do respawn eventually, so I would say wait for the equipment to pop up again then try the mission.
The problem is that if you S rank the mission, it still shows as -- on the log, forever, and doesn'T count for the trophy
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
Nah, because it lets others think about it as well, and possibly add their voice in, possibly making it so other game designers see "oh, there's a market here for games that treat women with respect all the way through! Maybe we should do that!"
Yeah, let me know when the next cerebral military conspiracy stealth game with out of this world characters and a photo realistic engine with "anything goes" game play takes this info under advisement. I want more metal gear!
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'm not sure if many people are saying Kojima shouldn't be allowed to make what he wants. Nor do I think there's an abundance of outrage about Quiet. Criticism is not outrage, yet it's a fallacious connection that's made all too often.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
This seems incredibly likely, sadly. They wouldn't even let him finish this thing. If they make another one, I'll be shocked. If they manage to make another one as good as this or any of the others, I'd be double shocked. This isn't even finished and it's one of the greatest gameplay experiences of the past several years. But man, if it were finished, and the story reached a satisfying conclusion at the end of the game, it'd be so great!
Also, if I could drop in Walker Gears c'mon people. Oh and
The boss fights all sucked. That was disappointing.
I can't help but feel disappointed in this game. If only it were finished.
False. Quiet was amazing.
Eh, yeah that one is pretty good. MGS is good at sniper duels. The rest I found pretty disappointing though. There's not enough metal gear weirdness for me.
Guys, Kojima won. We can't stop talking about Quiet.
Meanwhile, my wife thinks Quiet is a badass, and when I was playing a couple missions with D-Dog last night, she flat out asked me why I wasn't using Quiet because she was better looking than a dog anyway.
Poor DD.
This was a test. You should have replied "Not as good looking as you are".
There is nothing wrong with sexuality, dressing sexy, acting sexy, etc. Nothing at all.
The issue comes within the context of women being treated as substandard throughout history on top of the fact that Quiet is being presented as an object for my desires, which makes me feel uncomfortable. The camera leers at her, she is posed in a way that screams "I am for you, I am not under my own power." And I find that disturbing, because over and over and over I find myself in that situation of being presented with people as some kind of reward or object to acquire.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying Quiet's physical appearance. If that appearance had been there without the game forcing her on me as an object, I would have pretty much no issue.
She has such strong moments of menace and presence, which are entirely overshadowed by "Here she is, all for you on a silver platter."
Many adult males are uncomfortable with a woman who doesn't feel obligated to embrace modesty or are entirely in touch with their own sexuality. Not saying the character's outfit is practical, but in terms of the nature of the character I can see why so many male gamers take issue. Nonchalant appreciation of the attractiveness of one's self can be intimidating to some people. I agree the concept offered in MGSV is pandering but at its core it does tap into some learned male behavior that is anachronistic and needs to wither and die so that women don't have to feel bad about looking at their bodies and feeling pride. However that's a sociological discussion that may not actually apply under the circumstances but it definitely explains a lot of the outcry. "What do you mean she doesn't like clothes?" Well... that's actually a thing. But it's an odd notion to swallow for some people. I'm not indicting anyone's sensibilities just pointing out some old timeynotions that seem culturally hereditary.
Ah yes the old "the problem with the male gaze is we don't have more of it" defense.
Yeah that's what it is. Not the tired old "stop treating people like they're weird or wrong for looking in a mirror and smiling".
The horrifying notion that any person, male or female, can have some kind of pride or appreciation for their physical body. Oh yuck that's exhibitionist icky taboo. Please. Insecurity is a stinky perfume.
I think there's nothing wrong with the design but the chicken-shit excuses made for it. However, I still think most of the outrage is just as pretentious as Kojima's narrative hogwash excuse.
Yes it's so pretentious to want women designed by men to titillate to wear clothes and not be designed to titillate
No, it's pretentious to act offended by something that is clearly a design misstep and not some kind of commentary on society at large. The stupid camera angles didn't belong. The obvious focus doesn't feel right because the character is better than that. But begrudging the outfit is just silly when the real problem is the leering we're forced to do when I would have been fine with her bathing suit camo had I not been forced to stare at her ass at every turn when I was busy trying to watch her murder zombie-soldiers.
Quiet is great and she is beautiful. But she could have been beautiful without being shoved down our throats. On the other hand I'm not going to go out of my way to pretend like this is an affront to women or society when all it is is a design blunder
Taken in a vacuum, this is just a design blunder.
But the world is not a vacuum, and this is yet another of the thousands of "design blunders" that is the systemic objectification of women in media.
Or maybe you, like so many others, choose to focus on that and ignore the overwhelming swing in the other direction in media. Even past entries in this series have included female characters who weren't silly eye candy. But other companies have gone crazy with the frequent and consistently well-executed "leading female" to counter the traditional "leading male" while still maintaining the differences and avoiding the looming shadow of forced gender identity crisis. In the end, though, all this rage is standard internet behavior. Outrage is rampant. People love a cause.
I remember being forced to look at Miranda Lawson's butt every two seconds in ME2. It was irritating but I decided to ignore the designers attempts to shove her butt in my face and instead paid attention to the quality of the character. I missed Ashley, but they gave her back in ME3.... complete with fake n bake tan and flat iron treatment... I rolled my eyes but dropped it there because no matter how much the old guard tries to reinforce the traditional pandering they fuck up and give us gems like Bonnie McFarlane and Jack and The Boss. Hell, we've had Samus Aran for generations of gaming. And let's not forget Mirror's Edge.
You don't have to sift through the bargain bins anymore. The appreciation for well constructed female characters is there. The sexuality of design will never disappear, however. That's the way that is. Attraction dictates design. If I think it's boring or uninteresting to look at I won't look at it. I do, agree, however, that sexy can be achieved without gratuitous objectification.
Quiet can wear a bikini. Just don't shove her boobs in my face while she's exhibiting what ACTUALLY makes her awesome. I can see them just fine, thanks. That's great. But seriously... calm down with the camera.
EDIT: Like, seriously, in the helicopter.... "Quiet, sit still, please... Jesus Christ what is your problem?" I think you can definitely say that's fucking gratuitous. But I don't think the outfit is the issue. I think being told what I should be interested in by clever camera angles is grating. Especially in a game where facial animation and design is so unbelievably well executed.
The stretching actually makes sense
It's everything else that is awful
Also she literally could have worn the same outfit and just simply not done the fanservicey bits and it would have been received much better
Also why doesn't she wear a god damn sports bra if she's going to flip around, lmao
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Like you want her showing a lot of skin?
If you made her look like Ronda Rousey in UFC fighting gear no one would have cared
If you made her look like Ronda Rousey in UFC fighting gear no one would have cared
Still wouldn't make sense. In MMA, everyone is wearing very little clothing because it makes sense for the sport.
Wearing very little clothing while climbing around on rocks and woods and sand and being around gunfire and explosions.....doesn't. And also literally everybody else is wearing full combat gear.
If you made her look like Ronda Rousey in UFC fighting gear no one would have cared
Still wouldn't make sense. In MMA, everyone is wearing very little clothing because it makes sense for the sport.
Wearing very little clothing while climbing around on rocks and woods and sand and being around gunfire and explosions.....doesn't. And also literally everybody else is wearing full combat gear.
But she doesn't climb around on rocks
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
If you made her look like Ronda Rousey in UFC fighting gear no one would have cared
Still wouldn't make sense. In MMA, everyone is wearing very little clothing because it makes sense for the sport.
Wearing very little clothing while climbing around on rocks and woods and sand and being around gunfire and explosions.....doesn't. And also literally everybody else is wearing full combat gear.
But she doesn't climb around on rocks
She literally teleports and has super bulletproof magic invisibility skin. Her choice of fabric might be different for that reason.
So, do we have any info on MGO yet? Is it going to be super screwed on PC like FOBs are?
Posts
Quiet clearly panders to the perv in me. There's no doubt about it. I just don't see the problem in that. I am that shallow, and I don't see a problem in that.
When I feel like it, I pay for the product *Beautiful Woman* in real life. Prostitution is perfectly legal where I live, and quite often it's a beautiful experience for me. So it would be quite hypocritical of me to see anything wrong with sexual objectifiction.
Sure, in your judgement, that might be a bad thing, but really, who are you to judge me? Or the people who let themselves be objectified in that manner, or any other.
Bayonetta is a special case too because her design and character end up catering to a more niche audience. On other message boards, there are sometimes discussions that pop up because despite the game playing up the sexuality many people simply don't find the character attractive. One writer somewhere pointed out that it's due to Bayonetta being something for the kink community and not necessarily the general T&A audience. The result is that she's not that sexual for many but ultra refined fetish fuel for both men and women with a specific interest. It's something very, very different in many regards from the norm.
I also recall a brief interview with the character designer for Bayonetta herself. She mentioned that originally Bayonetta didn't have glasses but the project lead requested them largely due to him thinking that women in glasses were cute. So she added glasses to Bayonetta and then decided to add glasses to every other character in the game too to have fun with the lead.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Meanwhile, my wife thinks Quiet is a badass, and when I was playing a couple missions with D-Dog last night, she flat out asked me why I wasn't using Quiet because she was better looking than a dog anyway.
Poor DD.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
Could just as well have been a pervy girl liking scantily clad women showing lots of tits and ass, that made Quiet up (even though I'm fairly sure it wasn't).
For added context, does your wife have a preference between dogs or cats?
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
We have two dachshunds.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
Everything is assailable, but not everything needs defense. You like quiet and aren't ashamed to say it. Good for you. But you can see how others may not share or agree with your paradigm. Others may contend over the basic assumptions and experiences that make up your thought. My own justification, if you can call it that, is quite different from yours. No need to be so forceful or absolute, else why even get into argument? What if your objective here? If it is to say that you are not ashamed, no need for the fluff. Your reasoning is subjective, so keep it subjective. No use in projecting it on others.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Or maybe you, like so many others, choose to focus on that and ignore the overwhelming swing in the other direction in media. Even past entries in this series have included female characters who weren't silly eye candy. But other companies have gone crazy with the frequent and consistently well-executed "leading female" to counter the traditional "leading male" while still maintaining the differences and avoiding the looming shadow of forced gender identity crisis. In the end, though, all this rage is standard internet behavior. Outrage is rampant. People love a cause.
I remember being forced to look at Miranda Lawson's butt every two seconds in ME2. It was irritating but I decided to ignore the designers attempts to shove her butt in my face and instead paid attention to the quality of the character. I missed Ashley, but they gave her back in ME3.... complete with fake n bake tan and flat iron treatment... I rolled my eyes but dropped it there because no matter how much the old guard tries to reinforce the traditional pandering they fuck up and give us gems like Bonnie McFarlane and Jack and The Boss. Hell, we've had Samus Aran for generations of gaming. And let's not forget Mirror's Edge.
You don't have to sift through the bargain bins anymore. The appreciation for well constructed female characters is there. The sexuality of design will never disappear, however. That's the way that is. Attraction dictates design. If I think it's boring or uninteresting to look at I won't look at it. I do, agree, however, that sexy can be achieved without gratuitous objectification.
Quiet can wear a bikini. Just don't shove her boobs in my face while she's exhibiting what ACTUALLY makes her awesome. I can see them just fine, thanks. That's great. But seriously... calm down with the camera.
EDIT: Like, seriously, in the helicopter.... "Quiet, sit still, please... Jesus Christ what is your problem?" I think you can definitely say that's fucking gratuitous. But I don't think the outfit is the issue. I think being told what I should be interested in by clever camera angles is grating. Especially in a game where facial animation and design is so unbelievably well executed.
That it happens far too often and objectifies women. You know, that it's harmful.
What overwhelming swing? How many strong female characters that are wearing normal clothing are there versus how many are just wearing bikinis or armor that are just metal bikinis? How many games resist the urge to male gaze the females every chance they get?
Now how many men?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
So how do I get those extra objectives then?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It seems every armored vehicle suddenly gained all seeing eye and can see no matter where I am even with the chicken hat on and has a massive damage boost, they can one shot my summoned tanks with the full durability bar. I'm rendered useless whenever i'm waiting for new ammo to drop and my helicopter bursts in to flames seconds later after arriving. And when I do get near the end, quiet gets a random bullet out of nowhere to the face that takes away a quarter of her health.
My problem with Quiet is that a lot of the elements surrounding her are in stark contrast to the rest of the game. And that's an additional disservice because in all other respects she's one of the more interesting characters. Furthermore, I believe the game even contradicts its own justification for her attire. It feels like they came up with a sexy design first and her character second.
That's not to say the others games haven't sexualized their female cast. In some cases there was decent purpose behind it (EVA), in others not so much (the BB unit's photo mode). But the general tone of Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain feels like a larger, and more serious, departure from those previous entries. That makes Quiet's design and camera focus stand out all the more like a sore thumb to me.
If I was outraged at Kojima, the Metal Gear series wouldn't be one of my favorites of all time, and this game probably wouldn't be my GOTY.
You can, and should, criticize things you love. It's a way to make them better, and it doesn't make them bad or evil.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Unless everything about the game has been pulled out by the roots and there's no way anything like this will be made in the next decade, feedback or not
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I was regularly starting to have people auto-dismiss from the waiting room after hitting a cap. Then I got an FOB and no longer get auto-dismissals as I have plenty of spots now open.
So it does seem to raise when you get more platforms. I think it's just that the waiting room itself has a maximum capacity.
Though despite the fact that I can now take on a lot more recruits and may even want some losers to pad out the security team, I find myself retaining the much more aggressive job candidate screening process from when I was filled up.
Have no skills above C level? That's a knifing.
Have a troublemaker specialty? That's a knifing.
Refuse to answer questions when held up and think about trying to melee me in response with either of the above? Oh you bet that's a knifing.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
This seems incredibly likely, sadly. They wouldn't even let him finish this thing. If they make another one, I'll be shocked. If they manage to make another one as good as this or any of the others, I'd be double shocked. This isn't even finished and it's one of the greatest gameplay experiences of the past several years. But man, if it were finished, and the story reached a satisfying conclusion at the end of the game, it'd be so great!
Also, if I could drop in Walker Gears c'mon people. Oh and
I can't help but feel disappointed in this game. If only it were finished.
Nah, because it lets others think about it as well, and possibly add their voice in, possibly making it so other game designers see "oh, there's a market here for games that treat women with respect all the way through! Maybe we should do that!"
From the ACC.
My current max is 1400 total. FOB is a way to raise the total quickly and cheaply, though levels 3 and 4 of the platforms are more expensive (IIRC) than the corresponding Mother Base version.
Two weeks in, 120 hours in (ok, like 10-15 have been idling), this is my GOTY hands down. (I've yet to finish it, though.)
False. Quiet was amazing.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Looks like they got a fix for the Missions 29/42 bug. Supposed to be out on Steam already.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Edit:
I am also kinda getting to the point where I might ditch the non-lethal weapons and just kneecap potential recruits so I can play around with more of the weapons.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
The problem is that if you S rank the mission, it still shows as -- on the log, forever, and doesn'T count for the trophy
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, let me know when the next cerebral military conspiracy stealth game with out of this world characters and a photo realistic engine with "anything goes" game play takes this info under advisement. I want more metal gear!
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Eh, yeah that one is pretty good. MGS is good at sniper duels. The rest I found pretty disappointing though. There's not enough metal gear weirdness for me.
This was a test. You should have replied "Not as good looking as you are".
I presume you failed this test.
The issue comes within the context of women being treated as substandard throughout history on top of the fact that Quiet is being presented as an object for my desires, which makes me feel uncomfortable. The camera leers at her, she is posed in a way that screams "I am for you, I am not under my own power." And I find that disturbing, because over and over and over I find myself in that situation of being presented with people as some kind of reward or object to acquire.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying Quiet's physical appearance. If that appearance had been there without the game forcing her on me as an object, I would have pretty much no issue.
She has such strong moments of menace and presence, which are entirely overshadowed by "Here she is, all for you on a silver platter."
Quiet is not a real person with agency
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
The stretching actually makes sense
It's everything else that is awful
Also she literally could have worn the same outfit and just simply not done the fanservicey bits and it would have been received much better
Also why doesn't she wear a god damn sports bra if she's going to flip around, lmao
If you made her look like Ronda Rousey in UFC fighting gear no one would have cared
Still wouldn't make sense. In MMA, everyone is wearing very little clothing because it makes sense for the sport.
Wearing very little clothing while climbing around on rocks and woods and sand and being around gunfire and explosions.....doesn't. And also literally everybody else is wearing full combat gear.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
But she doesn't climb around on rocks
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
She literally teleports and has super bulletproof magic invisibility skin. Her choice of fabric might be different for that reason.
So, do we have any info on MGO yet? Is it going to be super screwed on PC like FOBs are?