EDIT: Man, I'm not feeling WAR (level 47 right now). I loved DRK tanking (still 52 tho) and PLD tanking is alright if a bit boring. Does it get better post 50?
I love the shit out of WAR, but I'd say it doesn't get too much different post-50. Things you can look forward to:
Infuriate: Instantly brings you to 5 stacks of Defiance, 60 second cooldown. Not flashy, but hugely useful for generating snap threat on pulls (Infuriate -> Unchained/Berserk means nobody beats you in burst threat), doing extra damage, or prepping an emergency Inner Beast.
Storm's Eye: Will generally replace Storm's Path in your rotation except in very specific cases where you need the survivability. You do more damage with this, and that's what's important.
Deliverance: An actual DPS stance. This stance fucking rules and you'll also pick up Fell Cleave (analogue to Inner Beast, does ungodly amounts of single target damage) and Decimate (analogue to Steel Cyclone, does ungodly amounts of AoE damage) to go with it.
Raw Intuition: Another mitigation cooldown. It's good.
Equilibrium: A big heal in Defiance, and a TP restore in Deliverance. It's also good.
Infuriate and Deliverance are probably the two biggest revelations coming up in the tree. The former allows you a lot more flexibility around Defiance stacks, and the latter allows you to do an incredible amount of damage as a tank. High-end WAR play is about figuring out when you can safely go into your DPS stance to boost your group's clear times while still surviving and holding aggro, usually by being aggressive about using your defensive cooldowns and having a level of trust with your healer. Storm's Eye is also hugely important (keeping it up is a 10% DPS boost to all tanks) but doesn't really change how you play. Meanwhile, the two longer cooldowns are both powerful but probably won't change your life.
I'd say the WAR playstyle is basically all intact by the time you first pick up Storm's Path in the mid-30s, past there all the added skills are just refinements.
Man unless I run full STR, I don't see how you can use Royal Authority in geared parties.
...why wouldn't you be running full STR?
So you can take no damage/have a large enough health pool it doesn't matter while tanking which allows your scholar pocket healer to pull 1k dps every fight while running selene and never leaving cleric stance.
thaumaturge questline having a big fucking helping of "your character is a huge dumb idiot"
After doing all the other Ul'dah quests, I figured the Warrior of Light figured the Lalas in Ul'dah were a lost cause and that they had it coming to them.
Man unless I run full STR, I don't see how you can use Royal Authority in geared parties.
...why wouldn't you be running full STR?
So you can take no damage/have a large enough health pool it doesn't matter while tanking which allows your scholar pocket healer to pull 1k dps every fight while running selene and never leaving cleric stance.
Vitality has absolutely no impact on how much damage you take or how much damage the healer has to heal.
Man unless I run full STR, I don't see how you can use Royal Authority in geared parties.
...why wouldn't you be running full STR?
So you can take no damage/have a large enough health pool it doesn't matter while tanking which allows your scholar pocket healer to pull 1k dps every fight while running selene and never leaving cleric stance.
Vitality has absolutely no impact on how much damage you take or how much damage the healer has to heal.
Sure it does. Say a trash fight has 8k damage incoming, and you only have 7k health, your healer has to heal some or you die. If you have 9k health, your healer doesn't have to heal at all, and just stay in dps stance.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Man unless I run full STR, I don't see how you can use Royal Authority in geared parties.
...why wouldn't you be running full STR?
So you can take no damage/have a large enough health pool it doesn't matter while tanking which allows your scholar pocket healer to pull 1k dps every fight while running selene and never leaving cleric stance.
Vitality has absolutely no impact on how much damage you take or how much damage the healer has to heal.
Sure it does. Say a trash fight has 8k damage incoming, and you only have 7k health, your healer has to heal some or you die. If you have 9k health, your healer doesn't have to heal at all, and just stay in dps stance.
There's also a couple of abilities that a scholar can use with full effectiveness while in Cleric stance, and the one I run with will usually let me get down to about 1-2k health left in order to get his full dot rotation going on a multi-target/boss fight. That extra health tends to increase dps by several hundred on most trash fights and even on Alexander (not Savage, that is probably different). The other part of running VIT accessories, is that they typically have more defensive stats on them, while the STR accessories typically have more DPS stats. So they do help with mitigation a bit. That said, I also run with all my bonus points in STR to help with snap threat generation.
0
Options
Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
My takeaway from that scene was basically along the lines of not wanting to fuck with cursed relics when I don't know all the Thaumaturge things yet.
I was more questioning why we let whats his doodle put us in that situation in the first place.
0
Options
Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2015
Still not as stupid as the Conjurer Guild Master guy.
"I almost got you killed, lil girl. I hope you appreciate the lesson you learned here and the life saving information I withheld from you for funsies."
Using dps numbers for as3 on fflogs as a sample the highest healer dps is 538.1 most SCH are pushing 250-300 dps while WHM and AST are like half of that. The lowest tank number is 439.8 Most DRK are around 700 while most PLD are around 600 while WARs are busy throwing off the bell curve. The best of the best healers in the game barely out dps the lower end of the best tanks. Tanks in STR gear will give the party more DPS then if they had VIT gear and buyed time for a healer getting a few more casts off.
0
Options
Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2015
Speaking of NPC incompetence, one thing I always found kind of funny about Midgarsomr is that
Isn't he technically responsible for Moenbryda's death by destroying Hydalen's protection and allowing the Ascians to enter Scion HQ and almost commit whatever atrocity they were planning with Louie Suave's staff?
Seems like that whole tragedy could have been easily avoided otherwise.
Using dps numbers for as3 on fflogs as a sample the highest healer dps is 538.1 most SCH are pushing 250-300 dps while WHM and AST are like half of that. The lowest tank number is 439.8 Most DRK are around 700 while most PLD are around 600 while WARs are busy throwing off the bell curve. The best of the best healers in the game barely out dps the lower end of the best tanks. Tanks in STR gear will give the party more DPS then if they had VIT gear and buyed time for a healer getting a few more casts off.
For pushing Savage, sure. For normal grouping, not in my experience.
Speaking of NPC incompetence, one thing I always found kind of funny about Midgarsomr is that
Isn't he technically responsible for Moenbryda's death by destroying Hydalen's protection and allowing the Ascians to enter Scion HQ and almost commit whatever atrocity they were planning with Louie Suave's staff?
Seems like that whole tragedy could have been easily avoided otherwise.
Yes, but
It was largely an acceleration of what was probably going to happen anyway. The Scions were planning to use their Ascian-killing strategy sooner or later, and they had no way of knowing beforehand how much aether would be needed to pull it off.
Using dps numbers for as3 on fflogs as a sample the highest healer dps is 538.1 most SCH are pushing 250-300 dps while WHM and AST are like half of that. The lowest tank number is 439.8 Most DRK are around 700 while most PLD are around 600 while WARs are busy throwing off the bell curve. The best of the best healers in the game barely out dps the lower end of the best tanks. Tanks in STR gear will give the party more DPS then if they had VIT gear and buyed time for a healer getting a few more casts off.
For pushing Savage, sure. For normal grouping, not in my experience.
Outside of special snowflake pulls of like 10+ weak mobs where a WHM pops over CD before spamming Holy tanks getting 180-235 more str is a higher DPS gain then an extra Ruin or Stone cast.
Using dps numbers for as3 on fflogs as a sample the highest healer dps is 538.1 most SCH are pushing 250-300 dps while WHM and AST are like half of that. The lowest tank number is 439.8 Most DRK are around 700 while most PLD are around 600 while WARs are busy throwing off the bell curve. The best of the best healers in the game barely out dps the lower end of the best tanks. Tanks in STR gear will give the party more DPS then if they had VIT gear and buyed time for a healer getting a few more casts off.
For pushing Savage, sure. For normal grouping, not in my experience.
Outside of special snowflake pulls of like 10+ weak mobs where a WHM pops over CD before spamming Holy tanks getting 180-235 more str is a higher DPS gain then an extra Ruin or Stone cast.
For a warrior, I can buy that situation. However, for a paladin, I don't have any AoE dps to speak of. And typically, the higher health lets me pull entire rooms in Fractal Continuium and give the healer enough time to apply 3 dots, bane, shadowflare. About 9 seconds or so before they have a chance for a heal (though Selene is throwing out heals in the meantime, so that helps). I'm not sure if in that situation (typical dungeon running) that the extra single target dps I can contribute is greater than the dps the scholar would lose by not being able to apply their entire AoE rotation on the enemy pack.
I've gone looking for some theorycrafting on the matter, but everything I can find is for warriors which are in a very different situation than Paladins. I'll probably try running some tests on Ex: Roulette dungeons as well as Alexander (non-Savage version) and see how the different gearing situations stack up for typical fights.
on those special snowflake pulls i'd be doing all my cooldowns and overpower (plus decimate if I can survive it in deliverance)
which probably does more in total
I wouldn't calling pulling an entire room in a dungeon a special snowflake pull. It's what people seem to expect at this point in the game.
Sure. Just a question of whether the full room pull has 4 mobs, 7 mobs, or 10+ mobs. But the numbers skew better and better for warriors with each added target.
Speaking of NPC incompetence, one thing I always found kind of funny about Midgarsomr is that
Isn't he technically responsible for Moenbryda's death by destroying Hydalen's protection and allowing the Ascians to enter Scion HQ and almost commit whatever atrocity they were planning with Louie Suave's staff?
Seems like that whole tragedy could have been easily avoided otherwise.
Using dps numbers for as3 on fflogs as a sample the highest healer dps is 538.1 most SCH are pushing 250-300 dps while WHM and AST are like half of that. The lowest tank number is 439.8 Most DRK are around 700 while most PLD are around 600 while WARs are busy throwing off the bell curve. The best of the best healers in the game barely out dps the lower end of the best tanks. Tanks in STR gear will give the party more DPS then if they had VIT gear and buyed time for a healer getting a few more casts off.
For pushing Savage, sure. For normal grouping, not in my experience.
Outside of special snowflake pulls of like 10+ weak mobs where a WHM pops over CD before spamming Holy tanks getting 180-235 more str is a higher DPS gain then an extra Ruin or Stone cast.
For a warrior, I can buy that situation. However, for a paladin, I don't have any AoE dps to speak of. And typically, the higher health lets me pull entire rooms in Fractal Continuium and give the healer enough time to apply 3 dots, bane, shadowflare. About 9 seconds or so before they have a chance for a heal (though Selene is throwing out heals in the meantime, so that helps). I'm not sure if in that situation (typical dungeon running) that the extra single target dps I can contribute is greater than the dps the scholar would lose by not being able to apply their entire AoE rotation on the enemy pack.
I've gone looking for some theorycrafting on the matter, but everything I can find is for warriors which are in a very different situation than Paladins. I'll probably try running some tests on Ex: Roulette dungeons as well as Alexander (non-Savage version) and see how the different gearing situations stack up for typical fights.
Just cause you are an outlier does not trump the conventional wisdom of the entire community.
The thing is, the conventional wisdom of the entire community does not seem to have much information backing it up, other than for warriors. I'm trying to figure this out and there's not a long of strong evidence for things. Even the cases I've seen made for single target dps, it seems it's based more on a 'feeling' rather than any theorycrafted calculations and testing of the models.
The thing is, the conventional wisdom of the entire community does not seem to have much information backing it up, other than for warriors. I'm trying to figure this out and there's not a long of strong evidence for things. Even the cases I've seen made for single target dps, it seems it's based more on a 'feeling' rather than any theorycrafted calculations and testing of the models.
Well I used data from the best players in the game but you blew that off. Full STR gives 180-235 str which gives a very nice boost to every action you do VIT buys the parties lowest DPS dealer a few GCDs. STR on tanks is a bigger DPS unless the tank is incredibly bad.
0
Options
JakarrdIn the belly ofOklahomaRegistered Userregular
edited September 2015
If your healer is prepping you for a big pull, you won't typically need much additional vit. Take the second section in fractal. as a whm, when we run, I make sure stoneskin is on. then right before the first pull I pop eye for an eye, then we run past the mobs to the second set. at that point I pop DS and hit cure 2, regen, cure, med 2, asylum. by that point the tank is rarely under 50% and the party the same. then I can stay healing or pop tetragrammaton then go into CS and pop assize before pom+holy spam. And that is typically the hardest pull in that entire dungeon, the other one usually the one right before first boss with the big steam engine mob that can smack tanks fairly well.
I can say if you don't wanna go full str, you can go partial str/vit if you want. How you pull isn't so much dependant on your str or vit gear, but how you cycle your cds and how your healer is prepping you for pulls and healing thru. Full vit won't save you from a poor healer, unfortunately.
Nor that 4 wasp + treant pull in neverreach. If your dps is fast enough they all drop quickly but if not, no amount of vit will save you from those final stings plus if healer is late on a cure and a couple of crit hits finish you. =/ I'm basically 50/50 on that pull with my whm, depending on whether I'm paying attention to the correct wasp that is going gray or I have targeted.
Jakarrd on
Greetings Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada.
Posts
I love the shit out of WAR, but I'd say it doesn't get too much different post-50. Things you can look forward to:
Infuriate: Instantly brings you to 5 stacks of Defiance, 60 second cooldown. Not flashy, but hugely useful for generating snap threat on pulls (Infuriate -> Unchained/Berserk means nobody beats you in burst threat), doing extra damage, or prepping an emergency Inner Beast.
Storm's Eye: Will generally replace Storm's Path in your rotation except in very specific cases where you need the survivability. You do more damage with this, and that's what's important.
Deliverance: An actual DPS stance. This stance fucking rules and you'll also pick up Fell Cleave (analogue to Inner Beast, does ungodly amounts of single target damage) and Decimate (analogue to Steel Cyclone, does ungodly amounts of AoE damage) to go with it.
Raw Intuition: Another mitigation cooldown. It's good.
Equilibrium: A big heal in Defiance, and a TP restore in Deliverance. It's also good.
Infuriate and Deliverance are probably the two biggest revelations coming up in the tree. The former allows you a lot more flexibility around Defiance stacks, and the latter allows you to do an incredible amount of damage as a tank. High-end WAR play is about figuring out when you can safely go into your DPS stance to boost your group's clear times while still surviving and holding aggro, usually by being aggressive about using your defensive cooldowns and having a level of trust with your healer. Storm's Eye is also hugely important (keeping it up is a 10% DPS boost to all tanks) but doesn't really change how you play. Meanwhile, the two longer cooldowns are both powerful but probably won't change your life.
I'd say the WAR playstyle is basically all intact by the time you first pick up Storm's Path in the mid-30s, past there all the added skills are just refinements.
Looking through patch notes I've realised I haven't played in a year, so I'm so far behind it's just incredibly overwhelming.
You mean learning how to use Defiance as another defensive CD >.>
...why wouldn't you be running full STR?
... well, the correct correct answer is melded i150s, but.
Anyway, Rage of Halone is a 5x threat multiplier attack, and Shield Oath is 2.3x. You should have no trouble fitting in Royal Authorities.
So you can take no damage/have a large enough health pool it doesn't matter while tanking which allows your scholar pocket healer to pull 1k dps every fight while running selene and never leaving cleric stance.
After doing all the other Ul'dah quests, I figured the Warrior of Light figured the Lalas in Ul'dah were a lost cause and that they had it coming to them.
Vitality has absolutely no impact on how much damage you take or how much damage the healer has to heal.
Sure it does. Say a trash fight has 8k damage incoming, and you only have 7k health, your healer has to heal some or you die. If you have 9k health, your healer doesn't have to heal at all, and just stay in dps stance.
I love the bit where your text options are "say nothing" or "say something dangerously misleading"
man I don't even
Absolutely everything.
There's also a couple of abilities that a scholar can use with full effectiveness while in Cleric stance, and the one I run with will usually let me get down to about 1-2k health left in order to get his full dot rotation going on a multi-target/boss fight. That extra health tends to increase dps by several hundred on most trash fights and even on Alexander (not Savage, that is probably different). The other part of running VIT accessories, is that they typically have more defensive stats on them, while the STR accessories typically have more DPS stats. So they do help with mitigation a bit. That said, I also run with all my bonus points in STR to help with snap threat generation.
See? This is what happens when the WOL does anything other than nod.
Still not as stupid as the Conjurer Guild Master guy. But quite stupid yes
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I was more questioning why we let whats his doodle put us in that situation in the first place.
they were knocked off the platform
i'm a real healer now
just ifrit + titan, sort of
Seems like that whole tragedy could have been easily avoided otherwise.
For pushing Savage, sure. For normal grouping, not in my experience.
Yes, but
Outside of special snowflake pulls of like 10+ weak mobs where a WHM pops over CD before spamming Holy tanks getting 180-235 more str is a higher DPS gain then an extra Ruin or Stone cast.
which probably does more in total
For a warrior, I can buy that situation. However, for a paladin, I don't have any AoE dps to speak of. And typically, the higher health lets me pull entire rooms in Fractal Continuium and give the healer enough time to apply 3 dots, bane, shadowflare. About 9 seconds or so before they have a chance for a heal (though Selene is throwing out heals in the meantime, so that helps). I'm not sure if in that situation (typical dungeon running) that the extra single target dps I can contribute is greater than the dps the scholar would lose by not being able to apply their entire AoE rotation on the enemy pack.
I've gone looking for some theorycrafting on the matter, but everything I can find is for warriors which are in a very different situation than Paladins. I'll probably try running some tests on Ex: Roulette dungeons as well as Alexander (non-Savage version) and see how the different gearing situations stack up for typical fights.
I wouldn't calling pulling an entire room in a dungeon a special snowflake pull. It's what people seem to expect at this point in the game.
Sure. Just a question of whether the full room pull has 4 mobs, 7 mobs, or 10+ mobs. But the numbers skew better and better for warriors with each added target.
I doubt Midgardsomr really cares, though.
Just cause you are an outlier does not trump the conventional wisdom of the entire community.
Well I used data from the best players in the game but you blew that off. Full STR gives 180-235 str which gives a very nice boost to every action you do VIT buys the parties lowest DPS dealer a few GCDs. STR on tanks is a bigger DPS unless the tank is incredibly bad.
I can say if you don't wanna go full str, you can go partial str/vit if you want. How you pull isn't so much dependant on your str or vit gear, but how you cycle your cds and how your healer is prepping you for pulls and healing thru. Full vit won't save you from a poor healer, unfortunately.
Nor that 4 wasp + treant pull in neverreach. If your dps is fast enough they all drop quickly but if not, no amount of vit will save you from those final stings plus if healer is late on a cure and a couple of crit hits finish you. =/ I'm basically 50/50 on that pull with my whm, depending on whether I'm paying attention to the correct wasp that is going gray or I have targeted.