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Friend with possible alcoholism. Am I right to cut ties?
Figgy
Fighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered User regular
Fighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered User regular
We'll call him Andrew.
Context of the relationship: I've known Andrew since high school. He was always close and was in the same circle of friends. We'd also go do things just the two of us. During post-secondary, we would visit each other ever so often. Go to the bar. Go to a concert. Whatever. In late twenties and early thirties that toned down to maybe once every few months. Life.
Context of this friend: He has OCD. Badly. He knows he does, and he knows we know. For example, when we would leave his apartment to go out he'd have to go around to each window to make sure it's locked. As we leave the front door he asks, "windows are locked right?". Another example, one time as a joke I wrote "Mama's meatball making challenge" on his fridge calendar on a random day. He found out months later it was me who wrote it, laughed, then told me he originally thought someone had broken into his apartment to write it. That was the conclusion he came to. Last example, a few weeks ago he sent me a text after midnight asking if the red light on his power bar was a fire hazard. If he should be concerned. Knowing him, he was stressing about it all night before finally asking me. He also drinks alcohol--enough that he gets pretty wasted when we go out, and he can get pretty loud and obnoxious. And aggressive. He's been kicked out of bars on several occasions.
The matter at hand: So the other day my wife and I were moving to a new house. We enlisted the help of about a dozen close friends, half of which know Andrew. Andrew said he wanted to help, but he asked if someone could drive him to the new place so he can leave his car at the old one. "I've driven all over this weekend and don't feel like driving any more". I honestly did not clue in to the real reason why he didn't want to have his car, which will be very obvious soon.
I asked everyone to show up "around 9", knowing we'd get started realistically around 10 or 10:30. Andrew shows up around 9:30 a.m. and from regular speaking distance I can smell booze on him. I soon find out he approached my brother-in-law and told him he added half a mickey of vodka to his coffee (what??).
We get started moving shit, and maybe 20 minutes in there are about 4 of us in the garage taking a few things out to the curb. On the floor is a case of beer, mingled with empties and full ones. He goes to pick it up and says, "Hey! There's a cap on this one! It's full!" and then he pops it open and downs it. I say, "Hey, let's wait until we're at the new place before we start cracking beers. We have some heavy shit left." He says, "It's my day off--I'm going to have a good time." So I leave it at that, not wanting to bicker. Everyone continues to move things and almost every time I look in the garage, he's there drinking. There is one other person with him--one of a few different people each time. I later learn he was approaching people and handing them a beer to come drink with him. So let's say he's had another 8 beers over the course of the next 2 hours before we are done loading.
At one point we were moving a big box from our basement labelled "liquor". A friend says, "Ha, don't let Andrew see that". And guess who happened to be at the top of the stairs for the hand off? So now he knows it exists...
He rides with me in the moving truck (about a 30-minute drive to the new place) and I can tell he's pretty drunk now. He's loud and acting like he normally does during a night at the bar. Obnoxious, a bit pushy, easily agitated. Suddenly a very close (and alcohol-soaked) talker.
We get to the new place, and again he's drinking beer far more than he's actually helping unload. This time it's in the kitchen--there were a couple cases in the fridge for everyone to have with pizza that was on its way.
We're pretty much done unloading and he walks over to the "liquor" box, now in the kitchen, pulls out a bottle of rum and says, "mind if I have a celebratory shot?" I said sure, but the shot glasses are still packed so wait a sec. He then opens the lid and literally pours it into his mouth. Probably 2 shots worth. I was floored. He puts it back like nothing happened.
After seeing that, a few people came up to me (separately) to tell me he has been stealing swigs out of that box all day. Telling people not to tell me.
Fast forward to about 6pm, everyone is gone home. I now have to drive the moving truck back to our original home city, my wife will follow in the car, and we'll then drive him back to his car (but likely a cab at this point). He rides with me in the truck and on the way there it's a train wreck. Extremely loud. Screaming at everyone on the road around me. Telling me to "hit the fucking gas" constantly. Telling me to "go get that fucker" whenever someone passes me (I'm doing 90km in the slow lane, so almost everyone is passing), hitting my arm, slamming his elbow into the dashboard. I keep telling him to calm down, I'm driving an unfamiliar truck (26 foot), and it's nighttime. He gets annoyed I'm "telling him what to do".
I stop for gas and ask him to hop out and tell me when the tank is lined up to the pump. He tells me to keep going, keep going, keep going. I finally get out and I'm literally 10 feet from the tank. I said, "What the fuck?" and he shrugs his shoulders and turns around to have a conversation with the attendant. So I'm on my own pumping gas, I back up, I finish, tell him to get in, and we go. He then starts losing his mind because apparently someone at the gas station made a comment to him and he wanted to "punch him in the fucking face".
He also starts asking if there's anything else I need him to do. Anything else to lift? I'll help with whatever. Whatever you need. He was basically trying to extend the "event" because he knew I was just going to send him home. I told him I've got a couple small things to grab at the old place then we're done. So he can just go home. I'll call you a cab.
We get to the old place and I'm unloading a few things from the fridge. I'm carrying a big Brita filter (the big box-spigot kind) and he full on elbows it as I'm carrying it. It almost fell out of my hands. "What the fuck? Calm down." He flips that I told him what to do.
I continue to unload things, now with my back to him, and I get an extremely painful elbow to the ribs. That was the last straw after an 8-hour stretch of dealing with him, so I turn around and yell at him to leave. I said, "You're ridiculous. You're drunk. You've been drunk since 9 this morning. Get the fuck out of my house and get in a cab." He yells back at me and my wife walks in from hearing the commotion to ask what happened. He pulls an immediate 180 and calms right down, trying to convince my wife that I suddenly went crazy and he has no idea why. I just laughed at him, and my wife tells him to go get a cab. He eventually leaves.
I sent him a text the next day that basically said that his behaviour was unacceptable, he has a drinking problem, and he needs to speak to someone. This was not okay. I also mentioned that people saw him stealing alcohol. And that he hit me.
His response came several hours later. He said he doesn't have a problem. He was drinking early because he wanted a buzz. And if he hit me with his full strength I'd be very hurt--but I'm right, he took the play too far. Is he forgiven? Another text an hour later says "And don't think forgiving me is enabling me. Because it's not".
I haven't responded. I don't intend to. At this point, I'm cutting him out completely. His "apology" was not an apology at all. He refuses to accept responsibility other than "I went a bit too far". Completely ignores the fact that he was stealing alcohol all day. And arrogantly plays off the fact that he hit me because "you'd be hurt if I did it for real".
Then when doing a final walk-through of the old house before closing, I find an empty mickey of vodka stuffed down into our recycling box. There was probably never coffee--he came to the house with a mickey of vodka and finished it within 2 hours, along with about 8 beers.
From my perspective, I'm 100% justified in saying fuck this guy, go get your shit together. So many of our other friends already have. Am I justified or do I have a responsibility to try to get him help?
Context of the relationship: I've known Andrew since high school. He was always close and was in the same circle of friends. We'd also go do things just the two of us. During post-secondary, we would visit each other ever so often. Go to the bar. Go to a concert. Whatever. In late twenties and early thirties that toned down to maybe once every few months. Life.
Context of this friend: He has OCD. Badly. He knows he does, and he knows we know. For example, when we would leave his apartment to go out he'd have to go around to each window to make sure it's locked. As we leave the front door he asks, "windows are locked right?". Another example, one time as a joke I wrote "Mama's meatball making challenge" on his fridge calendar on a random day. He found out months later it was me who wrote it, laughed, then told me he originally thought someone had broken into his apartment to write it. That was the conclusion he came to. Last example, a few weeks ago he sent me a text after midnight asking if the red light on his power bar was a fire hazard. If he should be concerned. Knowing him, he was stressing about it all night before finally asking me. He also drinks alcohol--enough that he gets pretty wasted when we go out, and he can get pretty loud and obnoxious. And aggressive. He's been kicked out of bars on several occasions.
The matter at hand: So the other day my wife and I were moving to a new house. We enlisted the help of about a dozen close friends, half of which know Andrew. Andrew said he wanted to help, but he asked if someone could drive him to the new place so he can leave his car at the old one. "I've driven all over this weekend and don't feel like driving any more". I honestly did not clue in to the real reason why he didn't want to have his car, which will be very obvious soon.
I asked everyone to show up "around 9", knowing we'd get started realistically around 10 or 10:30. Andrew shows up around 9:30 a.m. and from regular speaking distance I can smell booze on him. I soon find out he approached my brother-in-law and told him he added half a mickey of vodka to his coffee (what??).
We get started moving shit, and maybe 20 minutes in there are about 4 of us in the garage taking a few things out to the curb. On the floor is a case of beer, mingled with empties and full ones. He goes to pick it up and says, "Hey! There's a cap on this one! It's full!" and then he pops it open and downs it. I say, "Hey, let's wait until we're at the new place before we start cracking beers. We have some heavy shit left." He says, "It's my day off--I'm going to have a good time." So I leave it at that, not wanting to bicker. Everyone continues to move things and almost every time I look in the garage, he's there drinking. There is one other person with him--one of a few different people each time. I later learn he was approaching people and handing them a beer to come drink with him. So let's say he's had another 8 beers over the course of the next 2 hours before we are done loading.
At one point we were moving a big box from our basement labelled "liquor". A friend says, "Ha, don't let Andrew see that". And guess who happened to be at the top of the stairs for the hand off? So now he knows it exists...
He rides with me in the moving truck (about a 30-minute drive to the new place) and I can tell he's pretty drunk now. He's loud and acting like he normally does during a night at the bar. Obnoxious, a bit pushy, easily agitated. Suddenly a very close (and alcohol-soaked) talker.
We get to the new place, and again he's drinking beer far more than he's actually helping unload. This time it's in the kitchen--there were a couple cases in the fridge for everyone to have with pizza that was on its way.
We're pretty much done unloading and he walks over to the "liquor" box, now in the kitchen, pulls out a bottle of rum and says, "mind if I have a celebratory shot?" I said sure, but the shot glasses are still packed so wait a sec. He then opens the lid and literally pours it into his mouth. Probably 2 shots worth. I was floored. He puts it back like nothing happened.
After seeing that, a few people came up to me (separately) to tell me he has been stealing swigs out of that box all day. Telling people not to tell me.
Fast forward to about 6pm, everyone is gone home. I now have to drive the moving truck back to our original home city, my wife will follow in the car, and we'll then drive him back to his car (but likely a cab at this point). He rides with me in the truck and on the way there it's a train wreck. Extremely loud. Screaming at everyone on the road around me. Telling me to "hit the fucking gas" constantly. Telling me to "go get that fucker" whenever someone passes me (I'm doing 90km in the slow lane, so almost everyone is passing), hitting my arm, slamming his elbow into the dashboard. I keep telling him to calm down, I'm driving an unfamiliar truck (26 foot), and it's nighttime. He gets annoyed I'm "telling him what to do".
I stop for gas and ask him to hop out and tell me when the tank is lined up to the pump. He tells me to keep going, keep going, keep going. I finally get out and I'm literally 10 feet from the tank. I said, "What the fuck?" and he shrugs his shoulders and turns around to have a conversation with the attendant. So I'm on my own pumping gas, I back up, I finish, tell him to get in, and we go. He then starts losing his mind because apparently someone at the gas station made a comment to him and he wanted to "punch him in the fucking face".
He also starts asking if there's anything else I need him to do. Anything else to lift? I'll help with whatever. Whatever you need. He was basically trying to extend the "event" because he knew I was just going to send him home. I told him I've got a couple small things to grab at the old place then we're done. So he can just go home. I'll call you a cab.
We get to the old place and I'm unloading a few things from the fridge. I'm carrying a big Brita filter (the big box-spigot kind) and he full on elbows it as I'm carrying it. It almost fell out of my hands. "What the fuck? Calm down." He flips that I told him what to do.
I continue to unload things, now with my back to him, and I get an extremely painful elbow to the ribs. That was the last straw after an 8-hour stretch of dealing with him, so I turn around and yell at him to leave. I said, "You're ridiculous. You're drunk. You've been drunk since 9 this morning. Get the fuck out of my house and get in a cab." He yells back at me and my wife walks in from hearing the commotion to ask what happened. He pulls an immediate 180 and calms right down, trying to convince my wife that I suddenly went crazy and he has no idea why. I just laughed at him, and my wife tells him to go get a cab. He eventually leaves.
I sent him a text the next day that basically said that his behaviour was unacceptable, he has a drinking problem, and he needs to speak to someone. This was not okay. I also mentioned that people saw him stealing alcohol. And that he hit me.
His response came several hours later. He said he doesn't have a problem. He was drinking early because he wanted a buzz. And if he hit me with his full strength I'd be very hurt--but I'm right, he took the play too far. Is he forgiven? Another text an hour later says "And don't think forgiving me is enabling me. Because it's not".
I haven't responded. I don't intend to. At this point, I'm cutting him out completely. His "apology" was not an apology at all. He refuses to accept responsibility other than "I went a bit too far". Completely ignores the fact that he was stealing alcohol all day. And arrogantly plays off the fact that he hit me because "you'd be hurt if I did it for real".
Then when doing a final walk-through of the old house before closing, I find an empty mickey of vodka stuffed down into our recycling box. There was probably never coffee--he came to the house with a mickey of vodka and finished it within 2 hours, along with about 8 beers.
From my perspective, I'm 100% justified in saying fuck this guy, go get your shit together. So many of our other friends already have. Am I justified or do I have a responsibility to try to get him help?
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Dude has some issues beyond that OCPD/OCD (sounds more like OCPD than OCD), and he needs to get help for it.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
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This is a person who will make your life miserable by his involvement in it and will not be grateful for any advice or help you give him to get out of his alcoholism and clear anger/violence issues (which he made clear when he ignored your advice to get help). The only question at this point is how close will you and yours be when the time bomb goes off.
I would either tell him that you're no longer willing to be around him while he's drinking at all, or be clear that you won't speak to him until he's truly ready to get help for his problem, and you'll be happy to help him at that point.
Or tell him you don't want to talk to him at all anymore, but whatever you do I think it's important that you do it in text so he can look back on it later and it will say the same thing, and that you be crystal clear that it's not him but the alcohol so that he can't pin it on whatever random excuse he wants to make in his head. People with substance abuse problems are excellent at dismissing evidence that the substance is causing harm.
I wouldn't be bothered too much about the stealing alcohol, when you're drinking it is incredibly hard to stop so you see any alcohol as fair game. Of course he's going to ignore that. (And it's just booze, easily replaceable.)
The hitting you and being a dick about it is an issue though. That seems like enough reason to just ignore him from now on.
Another example of what this kind of behavior looks like is someone who smashes things when they're drunk, but when you think back you realize they only smash your things, and all their stuff always remains intact and whole.
You are not obligated to ever talk to this guy again.
But if he's someone I care/cared about I might take pains to inform him (while he's sober) that his habits are alienating him from his friends and it will spill over into work and it's really better for him to seek help while he has employment and has some people who will still talk to him by choice.
Not in that I, personally, can help, but more should I be approaching other friends or his family to make sure they're aware it has gotten this far? He lives about an hour from his family, so in theory it could be an unknown. I mean, they're 100% aware of his other issues, but perhaps they're not aware he's drinking this much?
This is the main reason I just want to cut ties right now. I have an 11-month old, and I don't want him around my family when he's acting this way. If he sees helping me move as the proper setting to get belligerent drunk, I don't see many visits where he wouldn't. Luckily my son was with grandma all day or my patience wouldn't have lasted a fraction of the length it did.
Eh, I only mention it because to me that's a glaring red flag that there is a problem outside of "he was being inappropriate that day." If he just drank too much throughout the day and acted like a dick later, classic Andrew. But since he was sneaking alcohol straight from the bottle? I tried to tell him that in hopes he'd see it.
We had a chat recently about some health things (he's gluten, dairy and sugar-free as a way to combat a digestive issue he's always had) and he broke up with a woman he was living with some time ago. Maybe a year ago? The reason they broke up was because she.. had a problem with drinking and was physically abusive to him. (!) It's definitely true she has a drinking problem as she always went overboard in the handful of social settings we were around her. The physical abuse thing was just based on what he has said.
Depression is likely.
He needs help.
You might consider helping him if he asks, but that's probably about as far as I'd extend myself.
As bowen says, if he comes to you asking for help you can consider helping. But there probably isn't much you can do until he realizes for himself that he needs help.
These. I wouldn't make any effort until he makes an effort to help himself. If he really does decide that he needs help, then it might be worth considering investing yourself in a friend. At this point though, he's not your friend, and will not be until he realizes how badly things have gotten for himself.
All addicts are covering up something else. Cries for help are abundant. Sadly there is little to do until they bottom out. I know of no effective way to reach an addict who just isn't ready to hear it. It is heartbreaking and tragic, but Its true. Occasionally things like interventions can work, but it doesn't sound like it here.
The guy knows what he is doing. He has a system down to an art. He knows how to avoid suspicion and deflect the blame. He is deep, deep in his denial and well aware of how to play the game so to speak. My guess would be severe depression brought on by his OCD. Possibly this played a larger part in his break up than he let on? I dunno. Lots going on there.
Bottom line though he clearly ain't hearing it right now. Whatever crisis or personal trauma that brought this on is something he doesn't want to deal with. When he is ready if OP has the emotional capacity then being there for him is a great kindness. If not the dude is trying his best essentially to burn bridges so feeling like you can't deal with his shit anymore is just the natural human response.
If he is an alcoholic, that is all you can do.
I lived with one for 6 years and learned that hard truth. The guy has to help himself and all you can do is protect yourself, Op.
[Edit]Gnizmo has said it best
Don't offer unless he asks. Don't put in effort unless he wants to put in the same.
I, knowing my tendencies, proactively cut ties with people I thought I'd hurt. It sucks, but alcoholics have long roads of recovery that most people don't deserve to be subjected to. I have a list of people I'll happily talk to again when I know I'm not a danger to them. Including long-term friends I once hurt because of my own awfulness.
this pretty much.
GIS is evil
tell him never to come around again because his drinking is destructive and you don't want alcoholism around your child.
No question, give him the boot. If you know his family, call them and give them the straight truth about his drinking.
I'd really suggest not doing this. It may seem like the most compassionate move (and it is, objectively), but I can't stress how much one shouldn't involve themselves unless they want to shoulder a burden that is often downright unfair. Cut ties and let it be. This guy is persona non grata unless he can pull himself together.
I couldn't live with myself if I didn't tell someone in his family what was up. You can be clear about how you're not going to get involved any further. But YMMV on that point.
I had to do this with my best friend since diapers - we were tight for 25 years, thick as thieves, until he got worse and worse and worse... just drinking all the time, hiding it, sneaking, lying about drunk driving... showed up for one of my kids' birthday parties and drank a sixpack in the car, sitting in my driveway, before coming inside... that was pretty bad but I thought I could do something until one day while I was out of town he came by our place so drunk he made a pass at my wife. Told him never to come around again, never to call, we were done. Called his mom, told her how much of a mess he was, and that I wouldn't be exposing my family to it or talking to anyone else about it, but I felt like somebody needed to know what was up. Haven't spoken to him since... it's been nearly a decade. Once about 4 years ago he texted me to see how I was, I told him not to call or text until he was sober enough that his family would tell me so when I asked them.
Haven't heard from him again
Exactly. Just cut out the middle. If someone gets better, they'll be better. If they can't, they won't. Alcohol makes things extreme. If there's a chance for violence or worry, then that is the moment when risk is greatest.
Everything is personal, but sticking one's neck out isn't something I can suggest in any case.
Alcoholism sucks and it is important he seeks out help on his own instead of being told by someone else he has a problem he may not feel he has and being pushed into something he may not feel he needs(rehab).
He has sent a few texts over the past few days. One asking me to mail him a video game he had returned on moving day. I had forgotten all about it and he hands me NHL 11, disc only. Says I lent it to him a long time ago. I said he can keep it since I wouldn't ever touch it again, and he puts it.... Somewhere.
So I guess he forgot to take it that day and now wants it. I eventually just replied, "sorry, no idea where you put it."
"it's at the front door in that item holder you have"
"ya we didnt take that with us, so the new owners have it I guess.. I didn't see it there when we left."
"you need your eyes checked then"
Ooohokay.
Have also since found out he came on to a friend's wife at their house, everyone was drinking.
He spent the night at another person's house and at 4am the person hears noises, walks into him going through his bathroom cabinets.
So ya, just a mess. I don't intend to engage past small text replies intended to divert/end conversations he tries to start.
Let me say that first everyone is different. That said, this seems much more extreme than "usual". I've known alcoholics from the "lush" to the "your liver is shutting down by age 28". Alcoholics you can "work with" don't do these things. It honestly sounds like someone who still needs to accept and come to terms with their addiction, which is really the foundation of any good acts toward recovery. This guy seems to be very poorly equipped to even begin to understand his actions. I drink like a fish, sometimes, but I tend to specifically put myself to bed before I get to "blackout-don't-know-what-is-happening" levels. There's a serious lack of self-awareness, and I'll be the first to suggest compassion toward people who understand their failures. If one cannot understand the scope and effect, it is a sure sign to just cut ties. Don't respond. It'll stop eventually.