Concealment overwatch fire is supposed to be a bonus, its better than regular overwatch. By having your guy just stand out in the open and purposely play poorly is dumb. If they aliens catch you just standing around you shouldn't be rewarded for it.
Like if a pod discovers you, they dive for cover and ... OH you mean like they dive for cover, you get overwatch shots, then you get a turn? Wow, yeah alright.
I thought it was like EU/EW where you get overwatch, then the alien turn starts.
You could do a similar thing in EU/EW, but since enemies would always have normal vision, rather than reduced vision from concealment, the differences were that
1. You normally wouldn't know that a patrol was coming before they saw you without the use of stealth or a battle scanner, so you'd just have to get lucky and hope that an enemy patrols into you while you're in overwatch
2. The patrol would usually activate at maximum range, so you wouldn't get any close-range accuracy bonuses, some of your overwatches might not trigger, and your capacity to mop up the survivors would be diminished.
And some additional reasons why this is stronger in 2, unrelated to vision range
3. Mass overwatch is more effective in this game, since soldiers take their shots in sequence and dont waste their shot on dead enemies
4. Overwatch from concealment suffers no aim penalty, unlike normal overwatch
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.
Are you sure this is the case? I'm pretty sure that after your team breaks concealment you never get to go back to full on "enemy is not on alert" concealment, it just means that your ranger continues not to be shot at and gains bonuses for concealment for as long as they're a phantom.
Have you actually seen multiple real ambushes being set up in the way we're describing?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2016
Yeah it's important to emphasize that in XCOM2 you can literally be touching genitals with the aliens in some cases before an ambush triggers (as aliens don't see you in concealment while you are in cover, unless they flank you, even when you're 4 tiles away). Additionally the OW shots in concealment have NO penalty to hit as well. So you can get maximally close and shoot them with a fantastic aim bonus, then easily get to where the survivors went to finish them off.
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.
Are you sure this is the case? I'm pretty sure that after your team breaks concealment you never get to go back to full on "enemy is not on alert" concealment, it just means that your ranger continues not to be shot at and gains bonuses for concealment for as long as they're a phantom.
Have you actually seen multiple real ambushes being set up in the way we're describing?
I'd imagine that, while you can't do the full-strength ambush, your concealed soldier can still scout for you and figure out enemy patrol routes, allowing you to set up a longer-range ambush by knowing when they'll walk towards your unconcealed soldiers
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.
Are you sure this is the case? I'm pretty sure that after your team breaks concealment you never get to go back to full on "enemy is not on alert" concealment, it just means that your ranger continues not to be shot at and gains bonuses for concealment for as long as they're a phantom.
Have you actually seen multiple real ambushes being set up in the way we're describing?
Yes. You use the Ranger to see where the aliens are patrolling, then set up the exact same thing again and get a free shot on their turn. It's worth noting you do NOT have the same effectiveness anymore, because now you actually can't get all the major aim bonuses and get right up in their faces. But you can still guarantee getting an overwatch shot on the aliens turn and then a subsequent turn to continue doing whatever you need to do.
Edit: Also there are entire missions where Beagle has used these things to not be shot at. At all. On Legendary. Where he modded the games to give more aliens per group and more health.
Not. Shot. At. Once. If I can find it I will link it, but under the "Most Under Fire" thing it was blank, because not one alien got an opportunity to attack the entire mission.
Edit2: Here it is. In this stream if you watch it, you'll see multiple examples of using these tactics and why we're saying it's game breaking. In 5 of the 6 missions, he is not shot at. I want to emphasize this: He's not SHOT AT. Here are some timestamps for the impatient: 1:36:16 / 2:46:36 / 3:29:30 / 3:56:41 / 5:14:21
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.
Are you sure this is the case? I'm pretty sure that after your team breaks concealment you never get to go back to full on "enemy is not on alert" concealment, it just means that your ranger continues not to be shot at and gains bonuses for concealment for as long as they're a phantom.
Have you actually seen multiple real ambushes being set up in the way we're describing?
Yes. You use the Ranger to see where the aliens are patrolling, then set up the exact same thing again and get a free shot on their turn. It's worth noting you do NOT have the same effectiveness anymore, because now you actually can't get all the major aim bonuses and get right up in their faces. But you can still guarantee getting an overwatch shot on the aliens turn and then a subsequent turn to continue doing whatever you need to do.
Edit: Also there are entire missions where Beagle has used these things to not be shot at. At all. On Legendary. Where he modded the games to give more aliens per group and more health.
Not. Shot. At. Once. If I can find it I will link it, but under the "Most Under Fire" thing it was blank, because not one alien got an opportunity to attack the entire mission.
Fair enough, I didn't realize that was the case! I thought the patrols all went on high alert automatically after the first ambush. Seems kind of weird honestly that they don't.
Rend on
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wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
Beagle got through a series of missions ambushing over and over without getting shot at once.
I don't think they are going to do something structural to the game at this stage, will probably give aliens a new ability to help counter.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
That stream I linked where Beagle does multiple missions without even being shot at is amazing btw. I absolutely recommend it.
Beagle got through a series of missions ambushing over and over without getting shot at once.
I don't think they are going to do something structural to the game at this stage, will probably give aliens a new ability to help counter.
Oddly enough, I don't know why nobody thought of this in the first place. I honestly thought that what would happen if you were out of cover with aliens around, would be that they would instantly see you anyway. Apparently the concealment system isn't coded that way and you can't be seen standing in the middle of a street while outside of the aliens 5 tiles or so.
Evidently they only put on their glasses after going on alert.
Edit: Also here is that stream where Beagle demonstrates why this is broken multiple times on the games hardest difficulty
Here it is. In this stream if you watch it, you'll see multiple examples of using these tactics and why we're saying it's game breaking. In 5 of the 6 missions, he is not shot at. I want to emphasize this: He's not SHOT AT. Here are some timestamps for the impatient: 1:36:16 / 2:46:36 / 3:29:30 / 3:56:41 / 5:14:21
Again. He's just not even being shot at. That's game breaking, conclusively so.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2016
Yes, he had given early game enemies armor (making them harder to kill) and increased the numbers in each of the various pods he encountered. I think he increased it from 3 to 4 or even 5 enemies (I can't remember which, might have been 4).
While going through missions not being shot.
Let's just be clear as to just how damn overpowered what he was doing was.
Edit: And I am 100% sure watching him mow through aliens like this, even with his mods to increase difficulty, were what prompted the changes. It's not even like you have to be Beagle to pull this off, it's the most ridiculously simple tactic ever.
And in the meantime, they made a nice friendly intro to the new Sectopod. "We should also note that buildings won’t necessarily protect you from the Sectopod, as it’s fully capable of simply walking through any obstacle in its path."
It's so bizarre watching Beagle dismantle pods like that. You'd think someone would've caught on to that kind of strategy at Firaxis HQ.
I think there's a pretty easy fix for it: the aliens activate and immediately take their turn after concealment ends, regardless of how it ended. Doesn't matter if they just bumble into overwatch or you accidentally stumble into a civilian; your turn ends, alien turn begins.
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wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
That's kind of a fundamental change to game mechanics though, cheating for the aliens, rather than the "ADVENT counter" that Jake talks about. I don't think they should necessarily remove doing ambushes that way entirely either, just make it more difficult/risky.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
A while ago in this thread, I suggested that it was so obvious there had to be an alien or similar that countered it.
Whoops.
But in fairness it's extremely easy to fix by any number of methods, which don't inherently break or do anything to people playing the game normally.
Making it so that if advent breaks concealment by discovering you on their own turn they get to fire on you for free before overwatch would be a pretty effective solution.
It would also appropriately punish you for failing stealth, and make those red squares way more dangerous.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I honestly feel that would be too harsh though and would punish players who are playing the game "normally". The goal is to put a solution to a clearly unintended gameplay quirk, but leave the way the game works alone for anyone who is just using the mechanics the way the designers intended. It's clear you're meant to be able to get a chance to ambush a pod and maybe wipe it out from concealment, but it's also intended you do this on your turn so the aliens could get a chance to respond.
Basically the more I think about it, the more Itchy Trigger Tentacle is just the simple solution to all this.
I honestly feel that would be too harsh though and would punish players who are playing the game "normally". The goal is to put a solution to a clearly unintended gameplay quirk, but leave the way the game works alone for anyone who is just using the mechanics the way the designers intended. It's clear you're meant to be able to get a chance to ambush a pod and maybe wipe it out from concealment, but it's also intended you do this on your turn so the aliens could get a chance to respond.
Basically the more I think about it, the more Itchy Trigger Tentacle is just the simple solution to all this.
I'm not sure how it would be too harsh though. If you are found on the alien's turn while they're stealthed, they've gotten the drop on you, that should be a harsh punishment, right?
Playing the game "normally" still involves you needing to get the drop on the enemy from stealth.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
There are situations where you might get discovered from another patrol, say from behind, then suddenly find you've given that second pod an entire turn. That's far too strong and punishing, especially when you're doing this to counter another (albeit overpowered) tactic.
It's so bizarre watching Beagle dismantle pods like that. You'd think someone would've caught on to that kind of strategy at Firaxis HQ.
I think there's a pretty easy fix for it: the aliens activate and immediately take their turn after concealment ends, regardless of how it ended. Doesn't matter if they just bumble into overwatch or you accidentally stumble into a civilian; your turn ends, alien turn begins.
This seems like a totally obvious strategy for anybody who's played Exalt missions in EW. On the Transmitter/Encoder missions, doesn't everybody spread out their units around the Encoder and put them all on overwatch?
There are situations where you might get discovered from another patrol, say from behind, then suddenly find you've given that second pod an entire turn. That's far too strong and punishing, especially when you're doing this to counter another (albeit overpowered) tactic.
Notice I did mention "when it breaks concealment"
If you're not concealed, they aren't getting the drop on you, everyone's on alert already.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
There are situations where you might get discovered from another patrol, say from behind, then suddenly find you've given that second pod an entire turn. That's far too strong and punishing, especially when you're doing this to counter another (albeit overpowered) tactic.
Notice I did mention "when it breaks concealment"
If you're not concealed, they aren't getting the drop on you, everyone's on alert already.
That might be alright then actually and make the concealment mechanics more meaningful.
I still don't understand how you can stand in the open and not automatically break concealment if aliens are in your LOS.
It's so bizarre watching Beagle dismantle pods like that. You'd think someone would've caught on to that kind of strategy at Firaxis HQ.
I think there's a pretty easy fix for it: the aliens activate and immediately take their turn after concealment ends, regardless of how it ended. Doesn't matter if they just bumble into overwatch or you accidentally stumble into a civilian; your turn ends, alien turn begins.
But then overwatch traps become the ONLY way to engage. What if I want to engage in the basic way, by breaking concealment, letting the enemy move, then take the rest of my turn? Or if I just mess up and run into enemy vision from a corner or an elevation difference? Sure, its a mistake, but immediately ending the player turn would be insanely harsh
Isn't the whole point of an ambush to be over powering?
I think of Beagle's version of the ambush as a bait and switch. "Oh look, a lone insurgent, get him guys! Wait, where did all those guys on the roof come from? Oh sh-"
The only counter the enemy should have for that is calling in reinforcements to where they think they heard something going on, so you gotta scatter and hide before they surround your last known position.
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YoshisummonsYou have to let the dead vote, otherwise you'd just kill people you disagree with!Registered Userregular
Maybe give advent a armor bonus perportional to the number of stealthed units. I literally am speechless that they didn't think this was going happen.
Also beagle has been ruining long war for foever ( great jumping bezerkers).
Isn't the whole point of an ambush to be over powering?
I think of Beagle's version of the ambush as a bait and switch. "Oh look, a lone insurgent, get him guys! Wait, where did all those guys on the roof come from? Oh sh-"
The only counter the enemy should have for that is calling in reinforcements, so you gotta scatter and hide before they surround your last known position.
Except there is no "Get him guys!". The "bait" is at zero risk
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Isn't the whole point of an ambush to be over powering?
I think of Beagle's version of the ambush as a bait and switch. "Oh look, a lone insurgent, get him guys! Wait, where did all those guys on the roof come from? Oh sh-"
The only counter the enemy should have for that is calling in reinforcements, so you gotta scatter and hide before they surround your last known position.
Except there is no "Get him guys!". The "bait" is at zero risk
That's what the modification to change it to Itchy Trigger Tentacle would do, which also heavily punishes and makes putting that guy out as an extreme risk (while leaving the aliens exposed to subsequent shots).
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
This iteration of Itchy Trigger Tentacle would only apply to being revealed on the enemy turn though. It wouldnt apply to normal pod activation. You would deal with it by not allowing patrols to wander into exposed, concealed soldiers
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
Well, the way I think it should work is only against exposed soldiers - not those moving into cover etc.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
Bullshit deserves bullshit frankly. If people leave soldiers out in the open, they need to have the bodybags to facilitate it.
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
This iteration of Itchy Trigger Tentacle would only apply to being revealed on the enemy turn though. It wouldnt apply to normal pod activation. You would deal with it by not allowing patrols to wander into exposed soldiers
Well therein lies the difference between my suggestion and Aegeri's.
Mine is a guaranteed free shot for each enemy on breaking concealment during the enemy turn.
Aegeri's is (or was) simply having Itchy Trigger Tentacle (all enemies have 50% chance of immediately firing once activated)
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2016
I don't want them to behave predictably. They should still choose to scatter or shoot. If it's guaranteed then you can still find ways to easily manipulate it. Also I still want the alien to have to choose to be exposed afterwards, so there is an element of reward and risk.
Basically if the new option is equally as "This is so obvious, why aren't you doing it?" as the old one, then it's not a fix.
Edit: Also I think they should be able to do any action they could normally do - not just shoot. So if they want to chuck a grenade at you and hit 4 soldiers (instantly cancelling all of your overwatch) then they should be able to do that.
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
Well, the way I think it should work is only against exposed soldiers - not those moving into cover etc.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
Bullshit deserves bullshit frankly. If people leave soldiers out in the open, they need to have the bodybags to facilitate it.
But doesn't that run counter to their messaging that the concealment system speeds up the "find some enemies" portion of each level? If concealment doesn't allow for more flexible movement prior to engagement then what's the point?
I'll just say I hate Itchy Trigger Tentacle, at least how it was implemented in EW. It turns every robotic patrol into the equivalent of the Gangplank Cyberdisc, making such enemies no longer enjoyable to have in a map at all.
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
This iteration of Itchy Trigger Tentacle would only apply to being revealed on the enemy turn though. It wouldnt apply to normal pod activation. You would deal with it by not allowing patrols to wander into exposed soldiers
Well therein lies the difference between my suggestion and Aegeri's.
Mine is a guaranteed free shot for each enemy on breaking concealment during the enemy turn.
Aegeri's is (or was) simply having Itchy Trigger Tentacle (all enemies have 50% chance of immediately firing once activated)
I dont think he actually meant that ITT should be directly imported from EW, just the general idea.
I don't want them to behave predictably. They should still choose to scatter or shoot. If it's guaranteed then you can still find ways to easily manipulate it. Also I still want the alien to have to choose to be exposed afterwards, so there is an element of reward and risk.
Basically if the new option is equally as "This is so obvious, why aren't you doing it?" as the old one, then it's not a fix.
Edit: Also I think they should be able to do any action they could normally do - not just shoot. So if they want to chuck a grenade at you and hit 4 soldiers (instantly cancelling all of your overwatch) then they should be able to do that.
I'm suggesting they get a free shot, then scatter to cover, then end their turn. Just like it is now except also they get to shred the operative unlucky enough to get caught.
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You could do a similar thing in EU/EW, but since enemies would always have normal vision, rather than reduced vision from concealment, the differences were that
1. You normally wouldn't know that a patrol was coming before they saw you without the use of stealth or a battle scanner, so you'd just have to get lucky and hope that an enemy patrols into you while you're in overwatch
2. The patrol would usually activate at maximum range, so you wouldn't get any close-range accuracy bonuses, some of your overwatches might not trigger, and your capacity to mop up the survivors would be diminished.
And some additional reasons why this is stronger in 2, unrelated to vision range
3. Mass overwatch is more effective in this game, since soldiers take their shots in sequence and dont waste their shot on dead enemies
4. Overwatch from concealment suffers no aim penalty, unlike normal overwatch
Are you sure this is the case? I'm pretty sure that after your team breaks concealment you never get to go back to full on "enemy is not on alert" concealment, it just means that your ranger continues not to be shot at and gains bonuses for concealment for as long as they're a phantom.
Have you actually seen multiple real ambushes being set up in the way we're describing?
It's definitely game breaking.
I'd imagine that, while you can't do the full-strength ambush, your concealed soldier can still scout for you and figure out enemy patrol routes, allowing you to set up a longer-range ambush by knowing when they'll walk towards your unconcealed soldiers
You know there are websites for that I don't think you need to hide behind a barrier
Yes. You use the Ranger to see where the aliens are patrolling, then set up the exact same thing again and get a free shot on their turn. It's worth noting you do NOT have the same effectiveness anymore, because now you actually can't get all the major aim bonuses and get right up in their faces. But you can still guarantee getting an overwatch shot on the aliens turn and then a subsequent turn to continue doing whatever you need to do.
Edit: Also there are entire missions where Beagle has used these things to not be shot at. At all. On Legendary. Where he modded the games to give more aliens per group and more health.
Not. Shot. At. Once. If I can find it I will link it, but under the "Most Under Fire" thing it was blank, because not one alien got an opportunity to attack the entire mission.
Edit2: Here it is. In this stream if you watch it, you'll see multiple examples of using these tactics and why we're saying it's game breaking. In 5 of the 6 missions, he is not shot at. I want to emphasize this: He's not SHOT AT. Here are some timestamps for the impatient: 1:36:16 / 2:46:36 / 3:29:30 / 3:56:41 / 5:14:21
Fair enough, I didn't realize that was the case! I thought the patrols all went on high alert automatically after the first ambush. Seems kind of weird honestly that they don't.
I don't think they are going to do something structural to the game at this stage, will probably give aliens a new ability to help counter.
Oddly enough, I don't know why nobody thought of this in the first place. I honestly thought that what would happen if you were out of cover with aliens around, would be that they would instantly see you anyway. Apparently the concealment system isn't coded that way and you can't be seen standing in the middle of a street while outside of the aliens 5 tiles or so.
Evidently they only put on their glasses after going on alert.
Edit: Also here is that stream where Beagle demonstrates why this is broken multiple times on the games hardest difficulty
Here it is. In this stream if you watch it, you'll see multiple examples of using these tactics and why we're saying it's game breaking. In 5 of the 6 missions, he is not shot at. I want to emphasize this: He's not SHOT AT. Here are some timestamps for the impatient: 1:36:16 / 2:46:36 / 3:29:30 / 3:56:41 / 5:14:21
Again. He's just not even being shot at. That's game breaking, conclusively so.
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That's my hope, I remember in one of Beagle's videos he said this game was silly easy to mod.
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Watch me struggle to learn streaming! Point and laugh!
While going through missions not being shot.
Let's just be clear as to just how damn overpowered what he was doing was.
Edit: And I am 100% sure watching him mow through aliens like this, even with his mods to increase difficulty, were what prompted the changes. It's not even like you have to be Beagle to pull this off, it's the most ridiculously simple tactic ever.
I can't wait to hack one.
I think there's a pretty easy fix for it: the aliens activate and immediately take their turn after concealment ends, regardless of how it ended. Doesn't matter if they just bumble into overwatch or you accidentally stumble into a civilian; your turn ends, alien turn begins.
Whoops.
But in fairness it's extremely easy to fix by any number of methods, which don't inherently break or do anything to people playing the game normally.
It would also appropriately punish you for failing stealth, and make those red squares way more dangerous.
Basically the more I think about it, the more Itchy Trigger Tentacle is just the simple solution to all this.
I'm not sure how it would be too harsh though. If you are found on the alien's turn while they're stealthed, they've gotten the drop on you, that should be a harsh punishment, right?
Playing the game "normally" still involves you needing to get the drop on the enemy from stealth.
This seems like a totally obvious strategy for anybody who's played Exalt missions in EW. On the Transmitter/Encoder missions, doesn't everybody spread out their units around the Encoder and put them all on overwatch?
Notice I did mention "when it breaks concealment"
If you're not concealed, they aren't getting the drop on you, everyone's on alert already.
That might be alright then actually and make the concealment mechanics more meaningful.
I still don't understand how you can stand in the open and not automatically break concealment if aliens are in your LOS.
But then overwatch traps become the ONLY way to engage. What if I want to engage in the basic way, by breaking concealment, letting the enemy move, then take the rest of my turn? Or if I just mess up and run into enemy vision from a corner or an elevation difference? Sure, its a mistake, but immediately ending the player turn would be insanely harsh
I think of Beagle's version of the ambush as a bait and switch. "Oh look, a lone insurgent, get him guys! Wait, where did all those guys on the roof come from? Oh sh-"
I also like to call it the Red Dawn Ambush:
The only counter the enemy should have for that is calling in reinforcements to where they think they heard something going on, so you gotta scatter and hide before they surround your last known position.
Also beagle has been ruining long war for foever ( great jumping bezerkers).
Except there is no "Get him guys!". The "bait" is at zero risk
That's what the modification to change it to Itchy Trigger Tentacle would do, which also heavily punishes and makes putting that guy out as an extreme risk (while leaving the aliens exposed to subsequent shots).
Yeah. I am astounded they hadn't already thought of it and already dealt with it.
Unless Jake be trolling ...
I'd honestly rather have the game allow for cheese that can trivialize it if you choose to do so rather than having bullshit enemies that attack on sight before you can do anything about it.
This iteration of Itchy Trigger Tentacle would only apply to being revealed on the enemy turn though. It wouldnt apply to normal pod activation. You would deal with it by not allowing patrols to wander into exposed, concealed soldiers
Well, the way I think it should work is only against exposed soldiers - not those moving into cover etc.
Bullshit deserves bullshit frankly. If people leave soldiers out in the open, they need to have the bodybags to facilitate it.
Well therein lies the difference between my suggestion and Aegeri's.
Mine is a guaranteed free shot for each enemy on breaking concealment during the enemy turn.
Aegeri's is (or was) simply having Itchy Trigger Tentacle (all enemies have 50% chance of immediately firing once activated)
Basically if the new option is equally as "This is so obvious, why aren't you doing it?" as the old one, then it's not a fix.
Edit: Also I think they should be able to do any action they could normally do - not just shoot. So if they want to chuck a grenade at you and hit 4 soldiers (instantly cancelling all of your overwatch) then they should be able to do that.
But doesn't that run counter to their messaging that the concealment system speeds up the "find some enemies" portion of each level? If concealment doesn't allow for more flexible movement prior to engagement then what's the point?
I dont think he actually meant that ITT should be directly imported from EW, just the general idea.
I'm suggesting they get a free shot, then scatter to cover, then end their turn. Just like it is now except also they get to shred the operative unlucky enough to get caught.