A Fine Mess

naporeon · November 2006

OK, I'll admit going in that this is one of those "I already know what has to be done" situations. Sometimes, though, you just need to have the unpleasant truth drilled into you before you can build up the strength to do what needs to be done.

Here's the situation...I'm in love with my best friend. Now, before you start posting anything smart-alecky, there are three important facts to consider: 1) she is a woman, 2) I am a man, and 3) it is 100% mutual.

Challenge 1: She's married. OK, this sounds bad, but she and her husband (who, by all accounts, is a pretty rad dude) are separated, and are in the process of getting a divorce.

Challenge 2: Well, there really isn't a Challenge 2. I just think that Challenge 1 is massive enough to be mentioned twice. I can't see how someone coming out of a relationship as long as hers can have her head on straight. Logic tells me that she is just terrified of being alone, and she is just latching on to me as a stable, safe rebound guy. At the same time, however, we have always been attracted to one another, and were it not for her relationship, my normally-reliable instincts tell me that we would certainly have hooked up by now.

Now, I don't have any trouble with women. Or rather, I don't have the usual trouble with women. I am pretty successful in that area, but I have the growing suspicion that I have some sort of "attachment issues," since I generally only want long-term relationships with spectacularly unsuitable women; there are plenty of bright, attractive, and generally awesome and relationship-worthy women that I date, but I seem to only want to be exclusive with the tragically flawed ones. Perhaps this is my roundabout way of avoiding actual long-term relationships. Who knows?

So, denizens of the H/A Forum, what should I do? Or rather, how should I handle this situation? I want to do right by her, and I'd like to preserve our great friendship, but most importantly--and I mean this in the least selfish way possible--I want to act in the way most conducive to my long-term happiness. I am actually pretty certain that both of us would want to date one another in, say, less catastrophically unfortunate circumstances, but there you go; we are where we are, and I am afraid that I won't be able to stop myself before I plant the TNT under our friendship and light the fuse.

EDIT: For the record, I do not know her husband. At all. I would never even contemplate a relationship with a friend's ex, even if I were closer to her than to him.

EclecticGroove · November 2006

Might I suggest you don't go headlong into a relationship with her no matter what way you feel? lol

How about a talk with her and tell her that you two should hold off on any of the romacning stuff until a few months (at least) after she is divorced. Alternately, if it's going to be a long messy divorce and they move apart and are separated, then at least a few months after that part.

Point is, give her time to get out of what she's in now. If she looks at you then the same way, THEN I'd discuss what you two want to do about it.

If her soon to be ex hubby is a good friend of yours, or anyone you stillw ant to get along with, jumping his barely separated wifes bones will not look good no matter why they are getting a divorce.

Time is your friend here, use it!

naporeon · November 2006

Yes. "Give it time" is certainly the best advice I could get, here...followed perhaps by "run like hell."

And for the record, I don't know her husband at all, even though we apparently went to the same high school. He's just supposed to be a decent sort of chap.

Theungry · November 2006

Does she have Kids and whats your relationship like with her soon-to-be Ex?

If "no" and "cool, but not close" are not your answers, then i would say there's a lot more to consider.

If they are, then you should do two things:
1 - Be very honest with her about your feelings and talk together about the risks and rewards of being together now. Making a mutual decision > deciding then facing new complexities.

2 - consider speaking to a therapist if you really think you have attachment or commitment issues. You owe to yourself and the woman you love to uncover your issues and deal with them. Everybody's got fucked up issues. Everybody. The people in therapy are just the ones willing to do the work to change them.

naporeon · November 2006

Yes, they have a child. He's old enough to know what's going on, as well. And I do not know her ex, not even a little; but he is supposed to be a good guy. As for being honest about my feelings and reservations, I have been. Sometimes, I feel like we both recognize the dangers involved in jumping right into something, and sometimes, well...I feel like neither one of us do. I will say--and I mean this in all fairness and objectivity--that she seems to see much less of a problem with an immediate relationship than I do.

Also, your therapist idea has merit. If this issue with relationships doesn't resolve to my satisfaction on its own soon, I will definitely consider it. My employer even offers coverage for therapy of this sort.

Theungry · November 2006

Can i ask what your relationship with the child is like? If you end up in a relationship with this woman, how much have you considered/ talked about your relationship her son, because thats as important or more important than your relationship with her (... unless old enough to know whats going on means college or later. In that case its probably important to discuss, but not nearly as serious a problem.) If you are not interested in being a parent, then my $.02 would be that you should definitely avoid the relationship.

Glad to know you're talking it out with her, though. I'm always amazed at how many people keep their feelings a secret. So unhelpful!

naporeon · November 2006

I have no aversion to becoming a parent. I am quite a bit older than the average forumer here (unless that forumer is Pkmoutl), although that isn't to say that age necessarily has anything to do with being ready to be a parent. But I am, more or less; I have a good job and I love kids. I am reasonably sure that her son would take to it fairly well, although it would presumably be a little strange for him if there were no "downtime" between relationships.

denihilist · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

Yes. "Give it time" is certainly the best advice I could get, here...followed perhaps by "run like hell."

And for the record, I don't know her husband at all, even though we apparently went to the same high school. He's just supposed to be a decent sort of chap.

How do you not know your best friend's husband? That really doesn't make any sense.

Otherwise, yeah...give her time before rushing into anything.

naporeon · November 2006

denihilist wrote:

naporeon wrote:

Yes. "Give it time" is certainly the best advice I could get, here...followed perhaps by "run like hell."

And for the record, I don't know her husband at all, even though we apparently went to the same high school. He's just supposed to be a decent sort of chap.

How do you not know your best friend's husband? That really doesn't make any sense.

Otherwise, yeah...give her time before rushing into anything.

She studiously avoided our spending time around each other. As I understand it, they were working on fixing things in their marriage, and he didn't particularly like her having male friends.

Raggaholic · November 2006

Have you ever had sex with this friend? The answer to this question could totally change the advice that I'm going to give (more from her possible perspective than yours).

naporeon · November 2006

No sex. This is not for want of opportunity, however.

I simply figured that they would be the surest way to destroy both our friendship and any chance of a successful relationship.

CptKemzik · November 2006

I can only emphasize giving it time. Let them settle the divorce issues, then talk about the mutual feelings and what may happen afterwards.

You also mentioned about them having a child, and that you are willing to help with him should a relationship end up between the two of you, however when you say "old enough to know whats going on" what would the specific age be. Im sure the kid isnt in say college or something, but is he in grade school or what.

Really its just a matter of playing the waiting game, and to make sure that you don't jump to conclusions, or hastily going into a relationship without careful consideration. However since you are already aware of this im sure you shouldn't have a tremendous amount of stress with handling it.

naporeon · November 2006

Sorry, the child is 10.

And the problem is that, while we both seem to know that waiting is advisable (nay, necessary), I'm afraid that neither one of us are going to have the will to do it. I am operating in the hope that if I hear, "Wait, goddamnit!" enough, it will bolster my resolve.

EclecticGroove · November 2006

Ok,

Wait goddamn it :P

There is another one for your resolve.

But seriously, not that things could never work out if you two jumped right in it with each other, but yeah.. chances are it'd just be headed for a really bad ending.
And it's not like you guys can't be friends and people are telling you to run off for 5 years to some monestary while you "await the destined hour" or anything.

Just give it a bit of time for her to settle. Chances are she's going to be pretty busy getting things settled and the like anyways. So, just chill out and take a cold shower or something!

Theungry · November 2006

Yeah, waiting is very advisable. Take it slow. If you want to keep spending time, set some clear rules. a time limit on sex... something. If you have reservations about the timing, then its not the time. When you both have no reservations it'll happen if its as mutual as you seem to think.

p.s. its not too early to start bonding with the kid, though. Get him to a a baseball game STAT... unless he is effeminate. Then get him to some live musical theater. The sooner you start working on that relationship the better if there is any chance of you being involved with his mom. It will be very important for him to see you as someone that actually cares about him and will make his home life better. Remember, at 10 he may know the situation, but he doesn't have the tools to cope like an adult. He's almost definitely in need of some serious adult attention that he doesn't know about. Do by right by him and you'll do right by her for the next 7 years of teenage hell.

EggyToast · November 2006

Wait until the divorce is finalized. Then treat it like a new relationship. Don't simply jump into it assuming that "hell, now it's OK!" Date, get to know each other as single people. Don't hop into bed the night the papers are signed.

If the conversations consist of her bitching about the soon-to-be ex-husband, then it's not time to start a new relationship.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the situation. People fall out of love, and fall in love with new people. It's what happens. You sound like you've approached this both like adults. You just need to continue with that mentality, rather than regressing into horny teenagerdom once those papers are signed. In other words, don't offer to let her move in with you once they're divorced.

bsjezz · November 2006

I'm going to buck the trend here and say, go for it, man. You two are clearly in love, you probably really feel compelled to be with each other a lot, so I don't see the reason to delay it any further. Be glad that she's at least seperated. I'd advise that you make sure the husband is at least aware of what's going on, but beyond that you have no obligation to hold off.

If you do love her, and you end up being together for a long time, you'll look back on this period and ask yourself why you waited, I promise. Bascially I believe that passionate love, while it exists, is too much to throw away over stupid social rules like marriage. Take it by the horns, man. You'll be happier with her than you will be without her, and that's what it's all about.

(For a bit of background info: My current girlfriend was married when I met her. Not like "seperated", she was married and living with another man. She was unhappy with him, but together we had a blast, and although we put the brakes on a bit, we were kidding ourselves if we thought we could stop it. So we said fuck it, let's do this, she moved out and we've been living together for two years. We're happy. What we did was morally wrong, and I feel bad about it all the time, but we couldn't have had our amazing life unless we did it.)

Don't pussy-foot around, opportunities like this only come up once in a lifetime. People might disagree with me, but that's my suggestion.

Theungry · November 2006

I think there is something to what BS Jezz is saying, in that its important to be true to yourselves, but i think advancing with caution does not negate advancing with confidence. I think you should be clear that you want it to happen, but i think you should clear up tension now instead of having it hang around and sully a potentially epic romance.

okay, now i'm getting hyperbolic. time to go the hell home from work.

denihilist · November 2006

bsjezz wrote:

You two are clearly in love

bsjezz · November 2006

denihilist wrote:

bsjezz wrote:

You two are clearly in love

naporeon wrote:

Here's the situation...I'm in love with my best friend.

(Sorry if I misunderstood your eyebrow raising)

naporeon · November 2006

I would like to say that she has never, ever spoken unmitigatedly ill of her soon-to-be ex. She basically describes him as a stand-up guy, and their relationship as one that was simply not successful for those ineffable reasons that always seem to be outside people's control. However, she has said that he hasn't wanted to have sex with her for approaching two years, so I have formulated a couple hypotheses that I have of course kept to myself. But by no means do our conversations become bitch sessions about him. In my own personal guidebook, I consider constant complaints about an ex (or exes) to be a glaring red light. Perhaps accompanied by a claxon of some sort.

I don't believe in moral absolutes, so that isn't my issue with immediately getting together. I am entirely more pragmatic; I care about her, her son, and even her husband, and would genuinely like everyone to be as happy as possible in the long-run. Looming over this concern, of course, is my own natural preoccupation with my long-term happiness. I simply think that an immediate relationship is more likely to fail, and fail spectacularly, which would presumably cost us our friendship, in addition to any possibility of the "potentially epic romance."

And in terms of missing the boat, that is somewhat of a concern. I am making nebulous plans to move to France (I have begun both learning the language and applying for a long-term work visas), and it was mentioning this to her that first brought about the "Hey, you know, I am falling in love with you..." conversation; she was afraid that I might move away, and kind of went out on a limb.

bsjezz · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

I simply think that an immediate relationship is more likely to fail, and fail spectacularly, which would presumably cost us our friendship, in addition to any possibility of the "potentially epic romance."

I don't think it will. Two people who genuinely want to be together will get past amazing odds to make things happen, in my experience. When relationships fail it's generally due to hesitation on the part of one of the two people who are in the relationship.

That said, I understand your concern about making sure the husband continues a friendly relationship, especially when the kid's involved. Maybe this warrants more caution. If he's the type to feel bitter about her new romance he'll probably do it if he finds out now or six months from now, but that said it's something to not be insensitive with. Take it easy, sure, don't make big loud banging noises about it, but spend time with the person you love and enjoy it.

naporeon · November 2006

Thanks for your input, bsjezz. All indications point to our being spectacularly compatible, and we both feel very strongly for one another, so I am trying to exercise as much caution as I can possibly muster.

That said, much of your advice has wisdom to it. I know that there are reasons to act now; I simply have reservations. She seems to see less of an issue with getting together immediately. I am certainly weighing my options.

LiveWire · November 2006

The issues between you and her aside, I don't think you should put yourself in a position where it could seem as if you two were having an affair (or wanting to) before the marriage was really over. For this reason alone I would advise a respectable waiting period.

EggyToast · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

Thanks for your input, bsjezz. All indications point to our being spectacularly compatible, and we both feel very strongly for one another, so I am trying to exercise as much caution as I can possibly muster.

That said, much of your advice has wisdom to it. I know that there are reasons to act now; I simply have reservations. She seems to see less of an issue with getting together immediately. I am certainly weighing my options.

I think holding to your reservations are a good thing; after all, if the relationship works out well you don't want to end up in a situation where it felt at all "rushed."

Similarly, if she hasn't had sex with her husband in over 2 years, she's probably horny as hell. I don't doubt that her feelings are mutual, but the "move fast" thing may have an emphasis on the lack of sex currently.

Of course, "moving fast" and "should wait" and "compatibility" change as you get older, as you undoubtedly know. Engagements are shorter, the "number of dates until you sleep together" is reduced, the idea of moving in together isn't all that scary. You're already an older guy, and you undoubtedly know all of this -- which is why you've handled it the way that you have.

If anything, I'm pretty much confirming what you, as you said in the OP, already know. You don't seem to be doing anything wrong, and you look to be interested in playing it safe so it becomes something special and long-term, rather than thinking with your penis. That's awesome. It's a good day when someone doesn't blow off a relationship because the person has a kid, or is an ex-wife. Lots of guys think "ooh, divorced wife with a kid. damaged goods, stay far far away!" The fact that you actually developed a friendship with this woman and are now looking to make both you and her (and potentially her kid) happy is a good thing.

naporeon · November 2006

Yeah, I think that the both of us have reached an age where, as you say, many of those concepts have started to change. One of my closest friends said, "Look, you're at the age where you have to start looking at all serious relationships as being in interview for a future wife. Would you hire someone who was leaving her current job? Of course." Now, I don't necessarily agree with the latter portion, but the former has some wisdom to it.

I would also like to say that while I am sure that you are right, and that she's probably pretty wound up after a couple years without sex, I don't believe that either of us are particularly motivated by that. Both of us could just as easily (more easily, in fact) get it somewhere else, and not have any of these tricky issues to deal with.

We (that is to say, myself and the woman in question) spoke at length last night. Thanks--I would guess--to her relatively amicable split, she seems to be coming out of the marriage with very little baggage. At any rate, I think that we may start building our relationship sooner rather than later, but I believe that we should take...it...very...slowly.

naporeon · November 2006

UPDATE:
We have set up a "date" in mid-December. In the meantime, no more dates, no more party hook-ups, and no more bars for me; just a month-and-change of self-imposed celibacy and consideration. I need to get my head on straight for the New Year, anyhow, and this seems as good a motivation as any.

Nitsuj82 · November 2006

Wow, that's thinking ahead.

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