It doesn't bother me too much, though. At least they're leaving the confines of the status quo for a bit.
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I don't "not understand" what they're doing with Carol. I just 100% believe they did not intend this to be what happened with Carol, then they decided during the midseason break to go with it and retconned it by suddenly having her have a diary and a couple episodes showing it happen. They are pretending the writers earned it when I don't believe they did.
But these are the same writers who ended the first half of this season on a cliffhanger then came back and pretended they didn't so they didn't have to have that moment happen at the beginning of the back half of the season. They just aren't the best.
Also, pretty sure they killed Denise because Alexandria having no doctor now means:
It'll be even more justified in character when Maggie and Glenn decide to go to Hilltop and stay where there is a doctor, who oh by the way is an OBGYN by trade.
Also, Carol's leaving annoys me just because I know it's a one episode thing. Like, there's one episode before the finale, and I guarantee next Sunday we're going to see Carol get in some sort of trouble and recognize that with dicks like the saviors around, you can't become a pacifist. She'll probably try to not kill somebody and almost get herself killed(I don't think she's dying on the show any time soon). With as much as we saw of Morgan in 6x14, it wouldn't surprise me if he plays into this somehow.
It doesn't bother me too much, though. At least they're leaving the confines of the status quo for a bit.
I guess for me it just feels so abrupt and out of character to an extent, even Rick is a bit more sociopathic than normal. I liked the "What" moment at the time, but looking back it was an indicator of the change the show is on.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Yeah Rick's a straight up psycho now to the point where it's having the opposite affect of whatever it's supposed to be having. Like I'm not enjoying seeing him on screen this season much at all. I'd be okay with him meeting Negan and it not going in his favor.
I don't "not understand" what they're doing with Carol. I just 100% believe they did not intend this to be what happened with Carol, then they decided during the midseason break to go with it and retconned it by suddenly having her have a diary and a couple episodes showing it happen. They are pretending the writers earned it when I don't believe they did.
But these are the same writers who ended the first half of this season on a cliffhanger then came back and pretended they didn't so they didn't have to have that moment happen at the beginning of the back half of the season. They just aren't the best.
Also, pretty sure they killed Denise because Alexandria having no doctor now means:
It'll be even more justified in character when Maggie and Glenn decide to go to Hilltop and stay where there is a doctor, who oh by the way is an OBGYN by trade.
Also, Carol's leaving annoys me just because I know it's a one episode thing. Like, there's one episode before the finale, and I guarantee next Sunday we're going to see Carol get in some sort of trouble and recognize that with dicks like the saviors around, you can't become a pacifist. She'll probably try to not kill somebody and almost get herself killed(I don't think she's dying on the show any time soon). With as much as we saw of Morgan in 6x14, it wouldn't surprise me if he plays into this somehow.
I'd say they should do that just to avoid Carl, he doesn't do well with pregger ladies.
Is carl still on the show? Someone should keep an eye on that kid.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
They apparently just wanted the payoff scene to be at night instead, cause nothing substantial happened during the time lapse. They were just wandering around for a few hours, IIRC?
I think the sociopathy shown by Rick and some of the others is a logical extension of where they've been headed. It's just been a bit since their group has been contrasted against anyone who wasn't even more fucked up. It was the same when they first got to Alexandria, which started off with Rick deciding whether or not to take over the town and kill anyone who opposed, and culminated in Deanna begging Rick to murder a dude.
They're just slightly more proactive now.
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Carol saw herself in the redhead from last episode. That was her "ghost of Christmas future" moment and she didn't like what she saw nor where it had her end up (re: impaled on a spike with her face eaten off by a zombie).
It's been explained. Some of you people seem completely unwilling to read into any subtext in this show sometimes. I'm not saying it's a masterful stroke of writing, but they definitely covered it from a plotting perspective.
Nobody is saying they don't understand the insanely not subtle "HERE'S WHERE YOU'D BE IF YOU TOOK A DIFFERENT TURN WATCH OUT" plotting. We're talking about the fact that they had to retcon Carol having a diary of the initials of her kills and all that other stuff to try to make it feel like this has been building, when it really hasn't.
I'd respect it a lot more if they'd just shown her kind of snap instead of pretending it's been building to this based on her actions.
The way to have Carol have an issue is by having her repeatedly use abuser logic up to a point that she starts bullying people with violence. Than she has a "Oh god I've become the monster." Instead they put a really ham fisted "oh look this younger woman than you who always had hate in her heart was a hateful bitch, so totally you if you continue on your path"
Honestly I know the writers wanted me to make that connection with Savior Crowe, but I didn't because it wasn't an honest connection, it wasn't like we got to know that character and it was slowly revealed who she really was. She was part of an episode and dealt with.
The time for a break for Carol prior to that would easily more be the look at the flowers moment, and yet she soldiered on past that. Doing a lot worse in the process.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It's also the fact that I don't expect this isn't going to have a good payoff. I think Carol is going to run off, almost get killed trying to be a pacifist, then either kill again and accept that she has to, or more likely because this is The Walking Dead, Morgan will save her but to do so he'll have to kill somebody, so each one of them learns that pure pacifism just doesn't work in this world and they have to find a way to balance killing other humans with maintaining their humanity.
And then we'll move on to the season finale and thee won't be anything pacifist about that.
Yeah for me I don't forsee this angle working out. Because the writing this season has been less than satisfactory, specifically character work or lack there of.
Like Abraham suddenly deciding that Rosita totally exists and he doesn't want to be with her anymore because Sasha? Like I'm confused how that was even a thing.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I feel like what was missing here was a step between when Carol shot the wolf that was "helping" the doctor back to safety and her internal anguish over the amount of people she's killed. Some sort of intermediate point.
Speaking of time they should be rather late in the summer by now, in the timeline. I wonder if they are going to have a winter, do another time skip or just pretend Virginia doesn't have seasons. Or was the autumn-winter suppose to be in the 2 month time skip?
Taking her out to scavenge with them was colossally stupid and out of character for everyone involved.
Maybe her a little less but still a really dumb way to move the plot forward.
She's not a prisoner. Going out was her decision. In fact she said she'd do it herself if they weren't going to help.
Also, everyone seems to be missing the fact that she was a psychologist and was using the whole outing as a means to both get medicine and also help 3 people out emotionally (including herself). I really don't see what was stupid about the whole thing. I don't want to watch a bunch of Left4Dead bots set to expert run around the apocalypse.
Okay but here's the thing.
She wants to learn to be more useful. Sure! We can send her out in a big party so she can get practice killing a walker somewhere safe and controlled. We can take her out on missions to locations that we've previously scavenged to show her the ropes of how we knock on doors and listen to certain sounds etc.
How is the diary thing a retcon? Did folks interpret that as "look at this diary she's had for some time"?
I thought it was just a random bit of paper she had just then tallied up all the kills she could remember on.
Taking her out to scavenge with them was colossally stupid and out of character for everyone involved.
Maybe her a little less but still a really dumb way to move the plot forward.
She's not a prisoner. Going out was her decision. In fact she said she'd do it herself if they weren't going to help.
Also, everyone seems to be missing the fact that she was a psychologist and was using the whole outing as a means to both get medicine and also help 3 people out emotionally (including herself). I really don't see what was stupid about the whole thing. I don't want to watch a bunch of Left4Dead bots set to expert run around the apocalypse.
Okay but here's the thing.
She wants to learn to be more useful. Sure! We can send her out in a big party so she can get practice killing a walker somewhere safe and controlled. We can take her out on missions to locations that we've previously scavenged to show her the ropes of how we knock on doors and listen to certain sounds etc.
Trial by fire is just so irresponsibly stupid.
I think the thing is that she wanted to go then and there. She wasn't willing to wait - and she really doesn't have to. It's her risk to take. Not to mention that ignores the fact that she was consciously trying to help Daryl and Rosita out.
Taking her out to scavenge with them was colossally stupid and out of character for everyone involved.
Maybe her a little less but still a really dumb way to move the plot forward.
She's not a prisoner. Going out was her decision. In fact she said she'd do it herself if they weren't going to help.
Also, everyone seems to be missing the fact that she was a psychologist and was using the whole outing as a means to both get medicine and also help 3 people out emotionally (including herself). I really don't see what was stupid about the whole thing. I don't want to watch a bunch of Left4Dead bots set to expert run around the apocalypse.
Okay but here's the thing.
She wants to learn to be more useful. Sure! We can send her out in a big party so she can get practice killing a walker somewhere safe and controlled. We can take her out on missions to locations that we've previously scavenged to show her the ropes of how we knock on doors and listen to certain sounds etc.
Trial by fire is just so irresponsibly stupid.
I think the thing is that she wanted to go then and there. She wasn't willing to wait - and she really doesn't have to. It's her risk to take. Not to mention that ignores the fact that she was consciously trying to help Daryl and Rosita out.
That just doesn't sit well with me. I know human autonomy is cool and all but I feel like in that situation the correct thing to do would be not open the gates until the situation was resolved.
I'd imagine they have to have approval to go outside and do stuff right? Am I imagining that?
Honestly it feels like there are different writers writing characters, Carol's retcon alone just feels out of sorts with how she'd been prior to this.
This. Like I don't understand what the writers were doing.
Everyone is just gliding over Denise's death because they didn't care about her character or it wasn't the same person from the comics or whatever, but what you don't understand is Denise represents a LOT of people watching this show. She's not particularly skilled, she hasn't had time to adapt to be a seal team six member like Rick and crew, she's just trying to find her place in a hard, broken world. My wife, last night, spent five minutes telling me how much she identifies with Denise because in the zombie apocalypse that would be her, but without the medical training, so even less useful. She beamed with joy about how the writers could craft a genuinely believable character in a fictional world. Then, Denise was shot through the eye, gruesomely, mid speech, to the point where the writers even had her keep talking as the brain ceased function. That literally broke my wife. She cried over it and had trouble sleeping because of it. It was just so damn unnecessary.
Five minutes after this happened, she was in a hole so we could focus on Carol getting in an RV so she can go find herself.
You know what, on further reflection. Fuck last night's episode. It wasn't particularly well written. It was shock and awe for the sake of moving the plot further and to quote Dewey Cox's father...
..."The wrong kid died..."
Dude I feel the exact same way.
In fact, I sort of slammed through the last five episodes after taking a break from what I thought was the really bad cliffhanger resolution episode.
I liked Denise's character a ton, too. She also feels like a reflection of myself. And I really didn't care for the way she died -- felt, just, embellished and over the top and... and ugh.
I dunno about this show. Maybe it's getting too violent for me. Or maybe I'm getting too soft for it. Or something.
I've been re-watching Battlestar Galactica recently, and I feel like they are fairly comparable shows -- good guys running away from an unstoppable enemy, making big moral choices, dealing with loss and what it means to retain your humanity even under extraordinary circumstances. And in BSG lots of characters die, even important ones. But when they die they don't zoom in on the violence and make it horrible and over the top. You still feel it, but you're not left reeling from the sheer brutal violence of it like this fucking show does.
Taking her out to scavenge with them was colossally stupid and out of character for everyone involved.
Maybe her a little less but still a really dumb way to move the plot forward.
She's not a prisoner. Going out was her decision. In fact she said she'd do it herself if they weren't going to help.
Also, everyone seems to be missing the fact that she was a psychologist and was using the whole outing as a means to both get medicine and also help 3 people out emotionally (including herself). I really don't see what was stupid about the whole thing. I don't want to watch a bunch of Left4Dead bots set to expert run around the apocalypse.
Okay but here's the thing.
She wants to learn to be more useful. Sure! We can send her out in a big party so she can get practice killing a walker somewhere safe and controlled. We can take her out on missions to locations that we've previously scavenged to show her the ropes of how we knock on doors and listen to certain sounds etc.
Trial by fire is just so irresponsibly stupid.
I think the thing is that she wanted to go then and there. She wasn't willing to wait - and she really doesn't have to. It's her risk to take. Not to mention that ignores the fact that she was consciously trying to help Daryl and Rosita out.
That just doesn't sit well with me. I know human autonomy is cool and all but I feel like in that situation the correct thing to do would be not open the gates until the situation was resolved.
I'd imagine they have to have approval to go outside and do stuff right? Am I imagining that?
I'm pretty sure they have free reign to go as they please.
Oh man. Just read something about the finale that is going to leave people PISSED.
Seriously, don't read if you don't want finale spoilers. Fair warning.
Apparently the infamous Lucille scene switches to a POV perspective of the person getting the bat. The POV is continued through the entire attack and the season ends without the audience knowing who's getting the bat. Also, Aaron is apparently among the group and could be an easy out for the writers if they don't want to kill a major character.
I feel like what was missing here was a step between when Carol shot the wolf that was "helping" the doctor back to safety and her internal anguish over the amount of people she's killed. Some sort of intermediate point.
Re: Carol
Yeah, I think this was the turning-point moment for her. Meeting her Savior doppelganger was just the final straw. They should have focused a bit more on that moment to make it absolutely clear that she saw that Morgan was starting to get to the wolf and he had changed (atleast a bit) and that Morgan was also starting to get to her which was making her start to regret her "shoot first, asking questions is stupid" stance. Follow that up with a couple subtly warmer interactions between her and Morgan, then her going over her kill count, culminating with her and Maggie being taken. I think it would have made everything feel alot more natural. Personally, I don't have an issue with her arc because I don't have a problem assuming the effect of the whole wolf thing was profound enough to make everything that follows make sense. But I can understand other people not wanting to have to assume.
Oh man. Just read something about the finale that is going to leave people PISSED.
Seriously, don't read if you don't want finale spoilers. Fair warning.
Apparently the infamous Lucille scene switches to a POV perspective of the person getting the bat. The POV is continued through the entire attack and the season ends without the audience knowing who's getting the bat. Also, Aaron is apparently among the group and could be an easy out for the writers if they don't want to kill a major character.
I'm not buying those leaks. This writing staff makes some serious missteps, but I don't see them wrecking the impact of one of the most iconic scenes from the comics just for the sake of a 7 month long cliffhanger, one that won't even last because it'll be spoiled who isn't on set filming season 7 way ahead of its premiere anyway.
Of course, these are the people who thought doing the Glenn fakeout with the dumpster was a good idea, so all bets are off.
Oh man. Just read something about the finale that is going to leave people PISSED.
Seriously, don't read if you don't want finale spoilers. Fair warning.
Apparently the infamous Lucille scene switches to a POV perspective of the person getting the bat. The POV is continued through the entire attack and the season ends without the audience knowing who's getting the bat. Also, Aaron is apparently among the group and could be an easy out for the writers if they don't want to kill a major character.
That seems kind of awkward to pull off. What's your source?
Maggie's actress, Lauren Cohan, has described it as the "cliff-hangerest" episode in TV history. Doesn't say why, of course, but it does lend a little credence to the theory of not explicitly saying who's killed.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
The optimistic theory (finale spoilers)
is that there's a pre release version of the episode which doesn't show the victim, to prevent it leaking ahead of time. Like how Civil War allegedly has half the cast variously killed off in optional scenes to prevent any legit ones leaking out.
filming it as a mystery cliffhanger seems profoundly dumb, given we'd know well in advance who isn't back to film next season. :I
We see who dies, but the episode ends before we get to know what will happen next. Cohan has been prone to hyperbole regarding earlier episodes too, so I am not buying anything she's selling.
Oh man. Just read something about the finale that is going to leave people PISSED.
Seriously, don't read if you don't want finale spoilers. Fair warning.
Apparently the infamous Lucille scene switches to a POV perspective of the person getting the bat. The POV is continued through the entire attack and the season ends without the audience knowing who's getting the bat. Also, Aaron is apparently among the group and could be an easy out for the writers if they don't want to kill a major character.
That seems kind of awkward to pull off. What's your source?
My source is the Spoil The Walking Dead page which is pretty solid in terms of spoiler accuracy. It should be noted that even they are saying that they're getting conflicting reports.
That said,
it also jives with the leaked footage of the scene earlier in the year as the shots on the camera all appeared to be POV looking @ Negan.
We see who dies, but the episode ends before we get to know what will happen next. Cohan has been prone to hyperbole regarding earlier episodes too, so I am not buying anything she's selling.
I'm assuming there's going to be a cliffhanger of some kind. Maybe she's lying, I don't see a reason to believe not. It's far from concrete, I just think it lends a little credence to the POV theory.
She described it as something like the biggest cliffhanger and the second best episode of television ever after the Sopranos finale. That is hyperbole, I'm sure. :-P
Also, if the rumor turns out to be true: I'm looking forward to a few months of people eking out every possible clue, trying to examine the length of the character's shadow, angle of nearby landmarks, etc to figure out who it is.
I agree. Just keep in mind that a strong single vision led to the Glenn fakeout and this supposed season ending.
Black lives matter.
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LegacyStuck Somewhere In CyberspaceThe Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2016
I really hope the cliffhanger happens.
But it's not a full cliffhanger. Negan kills who he's supposed to kill, makes like he's going to leave, but then decides he's going to take another. Then you do the cliffhanger. So not only do you get the brutal death that's supposed to happen, but you also have that 'who the fuck else got whacked' cliffhanger.
If they make the whole thing a cliffhanger, especially after what they're supposedly doing with Carol/Morgan, I may be finally done with this show...
...
until the next season starts and I get sucked in again...
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It doesn't bother me too much, though. At least they're leaving the confines of the status quo for a bit.
But these are the same writers who ended the first half of this season on a cliffhanger then came back and pretended they didn't so they didn't have to have that moment happen at the beginning of the back half of the season. They just aren't the best.
Also, pretty sure they killed Denise because Alexandria having no doctor now means:
Also, Carol's leaving annoys me just because I know it's a one episode thing. Like, there's one episode before the finale, and I guarantee next Sunday we're going to see Carol get in some sort of trouble and recognize that with dicks like the saviors around, you can't become a pacifist. She'll probably try to not kill somebody and almost get herself killed(I don't think she's dying on the show any time soon). With as much as we saw of Morgan in 6x14, it wouldn't surprise me if he plays into this somehow.
I guess for me it just feels so abrupt and out of character to an extent, even Rick is a bit more sociopathic than normal. I liked the "What" moment at the time, but looking back it was an indicator of the change the show is on.
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I'd say they should do that just to avoid Carl, he doesn't do well with pregger ladies.
Is carl still on the show? Someone should keep an eye on that kid.
pleasepaypreacher.net
They're just slightly more proactive now.
It's been explained. Some of you people seem completely unwilling to read into any subtext in this show sometimes. I'm not saying it's a masterful stroke of writing, but they definitely covered it from a plotting perspective.
I'd respect it a lot more if they'd just shown her kind of snap instead of pretending it's been building to this based on her actions.
Honestly I know the writers wanted me to make that connection with Savior Crowe, but I didn't because it wasn't an honest connection, it wasn't like we got to know that character and it was slowly revealed who she really was. She was part of an episode and dealt with.
The time for a break for Carol prior to that would easily more be the look at the flowers moment, and yet she soldiered on past that. Doing a lot worse in the process.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
And then we'll move on to the season finale and thee won't be anything pacifist about that.
Like Abraham suddenly deciding that Rosita totally exists and he doesn't want to be with her anymore because Sasha? Like I'm confused how that was even a thing.
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Okay but here's the thing.
Trial by fire is just so irresponsibly stupid.
I thought it was just a random bit of paper she had just then tallied up all the kills she could remember on.
I think the thing is that she wanted to go then and there. She wasn't willing to wait - and she really doesn't have to. It's her risk to take. Not to mention that ignores the fact that she was consciously trying to help Daryl and Rosita out.
That just doesn't sit well with me. I know human autonomy is cool and all but I feel like in that situation the correct thing to do would be not open the gates until the situation was resolved.
I'd imagine they have to have approval to go outside and do stuff right? Am I imagining that?
Dude I feel the exact same way.
In fact, I sort of slammed through the last five episodes after taking a break from what I thought was the really bad cliffhanger resolution episode.
I dunno about this show. Maybe it's getting too violent for me. Or maybe I'm getting too soft for it. Or something.
I've been re-watching Battlestar Galactica recently, and I feel like they are fairly comparable shows -- good guys running away from an unstoppable enemy, making big moral choices, dealing with loss and what it means to retain your humanity even under extraordinary circumstances. And in BSG lots of characters die, even important ones. But when they die they don't zoom in on the violence and make it horrible and over the top. You still feel it, but you're not left reeling from the sheer brutal violence of it like this fucking show does.
I'm pretty sure they have free reign to go as they please.
Seriously, don't read if you don't want finale spoilers. Fair warning.
Re: Carol
lol
Of course, these are the people who thought doing the Glenn fakeout with the dumpster was a good idea, so all bets are off.
That seems kind of awkward to pull off. What's your source?
filming it as a mystery cliffhanger seems profoundly dumb, given we'd know well in advance who isn't back to film next season. :I
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
My source is the Spoil The Walking Dead page which is pretty solid in terms of spoiler accuracy. It should be noted that even they are saying that they're getting conflicting reports.
That said,
She described it as something like the biggest cliffhanger and the second best episode of television ever after the Sopranos finale. That is hyperbole, I'm sure. :-P
Also, if the rumor turns out to be true: I'm looking forward to a few months of people eking out every possible clue, trying to examine the length of the character's shadow, angle of nearby landmarks, etc to figure out who it is.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
If they make the whole thing a cliffhanger, especially after what they're supposedly doing with Carol/Morgan, I may be finally done with this show...
...
until the next season starts and I get sucked in again...
Fans voting on character deaths would be a fanboy shitshow.