Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

This Thread Will Go Down in [History]

1356733

Posts

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    On top of that in any halfway serious pointy-object fight at close range where the opponents are vaguely equal it's harder than not to come out completely unscathed anyway (one of the reasons the first rule of knife fights is "don't get in a knife fight").

    A few of the German Mensur styles and related things go so far as to forbid footwork - the participants take a fixed position, a lot closer than fencers or historical duellists would, and are only allowed to use parries and upper body movements for defense. That tends to up the chances of taking hits from the other guy's weapon from "pretty likely" to "oh hey, you're probably actively seeking out an injury."

    Academic fencing usually just went to the first hit either way, but taking a lot of challenges in those circumstances makes it a coin toss as much as a matter of skill.

    Fearghaill
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    On top of that in any halfway serious pointy-object fight at close range where the opponents are vaguely equal it's harder than not to come out completely unscathed anyway (one of the reasons the first rule of knife fights is "don't get in a knife fight").

    A few of the German Mensur styles and related things go so far as to forbid footwork - the participants take a fixed position, a lot closer than fencers or historical duellists would, and are only allowed to use parries and upper body movements for defense. That tends to up the chances of taking hits from the other guy's weapon from "pretty likely" to "oh hey, you're probably actively seeking out an injury."

    Academic fencing usually just went to the first hit either way, but taking a lot of challenges in those circumstances makes it a coin toss as much as a matter of skill.

    Oh jesus. I've only done a couple years of fencing but the idea of having to stand in measure and do everything in measure for the entire fight is down right insane. There is almost no way you are walking out of that unscathed. But I can definitely also see why the scars were held as signs of being "manly" in that scenario too. I mean, you literally have to stand your ground in striking range for the entire duel.

    FearghaillZibblsnrtFencingsaxSkeithSlacker71
  • GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    Just got back from a trip to Berlin visiting lovely locations such as the Palace of Tears, The Soviet Memorial commemorating the 25 million soviets who died on the eastern front and the Deathstrip. Berlin's a fantastic place for history, felt a bit odd as a capital city.

  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    Who wants to learn that Elizabeth I colluded with private merchants to increase the price of coal during the 16th century and make more money for the government to conduct wars?

    Cause that's my senior thesis that I am presenting in 3 weeks.

    raoADVy.png
    Metzger MeisterXaquinGvzbgullonelyahavaLalaboxKwoaruToxPlatyFencingsaxchrishallett83SkeithHermanoRMS OceanicErlecPolaritieSolarDisruptedCapitalistknitdanThe Hanged ManHefflingV1mTofystedethNijaChallsarukunMatevMvrckSlacker71cB557
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    That book was Gentleman's Blood, I believe

    I recommend it pretty highly, it's a swell read

  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Who wants to learn that Elizabeth I colluded with private merchants to increase the price of coal during the 16th century and make more money for the government to conduct wars?

    Cause that's my senior thesis that I am presenting in 3 weeks.

    Lay this shit on me brother man.

    Metzger MeisterXaquinlonelyahavatynicSkeithRMS OceanicDisruptedCapitalistNija
  • GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Who wants to learn that Elizabeth I colluded with private merchants to increase the price of coal during the 16th century and make more money for the government to conduct wars?

    Cause that's my senior thesis that I am presenting in 3 weeks.

    Lay this shit on me brother man.

    Does it involve harassing the Spanish in some way? Very Elizabethan thing to do

    InquisitorMetzger MeisterSkeithRMS OceanicDisruptedCapitalistDuke 2.0
  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    So

    In the 1570s the English monarchy needed to increase its revenue due to increasing prices caused by inflation and numerous wars. When Henry VIII conducted the English Reformation, he dissolved the monasteries and took their land. Later, Elizabeth I came to power and became the financial controller of the Church of England. Since she knew the price of timber was rising, she saw coal as a possible source of fuel for London, and also knew of the viability of coal from her intimacy with Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, son of the Duke of Northumberland (where Newcastle, the primary port for coal during this period was), and owner of a mining business. Thanks to her power over the Church of England, she appointed a tool named Richard Barnes to the post of Durham Bishop who in turn made a deal with Thomas Sutton, servant to Robert Dudley. The deal was this: a 79 year lease over the lands in Whickham and Gateshead next to the river Tyne across from Newcastle, which would allow the lease holder to mine the lands as much as possible at a fixed rent. Barnes made the deal with Sutton in order to gain power as Bishop, and Sutton in turn sold the lands a few years later after making 12,000 pounds (a fuck ton) -- sold them to the Newcastle merchants who controlled the coal trade from Newcastle. This trade was the only source of alternative fuel for London since the price of timber was skyrocketing. Elizabeth facilitated this land trade to them, and even acquired another lease for 99 fucking years on the same land for the Newcastle merchants. In 1600, she granted them a chartered monopoly legalizing their control over the trade from the river Tyne in exchange for a 1 shilling tax on all coal shipped coastally, and 5 shillings on coal exported overseas. This tax, which was given to the English government in exchange for the monopoly and the manors that were the most prosperous coal lands in all of England, doubled the price of coal in London. Now, this was ok in the end, but increasing the cost translated into increasing demand for the producers in NEwcastle, who in turn increased the output of coal from 80,000 tons a year in the 1570s (it was 50,000 in the 1550s), to 200,000 tons a year by 1600.

    I doubt that was written super clearly.

    raoADVy.png
    InquisitorZellpherVegemyteXaquinGvzbgullonelyahavaToxPlatyFencingsaxchrishallett83ASimPersonSkeithRMS OceanicErlecHeadCreepsJoeUserSolarDisruptedCapitalistGatorDead LegendThe Hanged ManHefflingIronKnuckle's GhostNijasarukun
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    QRK7dOP.gif
    PSN: GrahamCR | 3DS Friend Code: 4399-2068-5090 | Switch Friend Code: SW-7440-9863-2027
    Metzger MeisterASimPersonSkeithHeadCreepsMatevcB557
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    I have to imagine that pistol duels fell out of favor relatively quickly in Germany as the lethality rate shot up? Or did this not hold true?

    A sword duel standing in measure the entire time certainly sounds preferable to that nonsense.

    ZibblsnrtMetzger MeistercB557
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Oh jesus. I've only done a couple years of fencing but the idea of having to stand in measure and do everything in measure for the entire fight is down right insane. There is almost no way you are walking out of that unscathed. But I can definitely also see why the scars were held as signs of being "manly" in that scenario too. I mean, you literally have to stand your ground in striking range for the entire duel.

    Seriously. I mean, a typical sword has an astonishingly long reach (to people unused to them, that is), but some images and photos of German duellists I've seen have them in punching distance, not just blade distance.

    No thanks!

    InquisitorMetzger MeisterFencingsax
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Oh jesus. I've only done a couple years of fencing but the idea of having to stand in measure and do everything in measure for the entire fight is down right insane. There is almost no way you are walking out of that unscathed. But I can definitely also see why the scars were held as signs of being "manly" in that scenario too. I mean, you literally have to stand your ground in striking range for the entire duel.

    Seriously. I mean, a typical sword has an astonishingly long reach (to people unused to them, that is), but some images and photos of German duellists I've seen have them in punching distance, not just blade distance.

    No thanks!

    Yeah, being in measure was always explained to me as "once you are at this range you no longer have time to think, it is time to execute on the plan you formed while you were out of measure, hopefully you planned and thought well then, because at this range all you've got left is pure reflex and luck"

    Starting and standing at that range for an entire duel sounds like doing a high noon shootout with revolvers set up for russian roulette to me.

  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    Germany, the Texas of Europe.

    2mw6ukw.jpg
    InquisitorOghulkNeoTomaToxchrishallett83SkeithErlecTofystedethNijasarukunDuke 2.0Slacker71RainfallJoolander
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    I have to imagine that pistol duels fell out of favor relatively quickly in Germany as the lethality rate shot up? Or did this not hold true?

    A sword duel standing in measure the entire time certainly sounds preferable to that nonsense.

    I mean probably but it's way more fun to talk about the brief time where this was happening than to discuss when everyone reasonably backed down from it

    QRK7dOP.gif
    PSN: GrahamCR | 3DS Friend Code: 4399-2068-5090 | Switch Friend Code: SW-7440-9863-2027
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    I have to imagine that pistol duels fell out of favor relatively quickly in Germany as the lethality rate shot up? Or did this not hold true?

    A sword duel standing in measure the entire time certainly sounds preferable to that nonsense.

    I mean probably but it's way more fun to talk about the brief time where this was happening than to discuss when everyone reasonably backed down from it

    I'm not saying to not talk about that brief time I'm asking a question because what you said was interesting and made me curious.

    Sorry for being curious?

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Starting and standing at that range for an entire duel sounds like doing a high noon shootout with revolvers set up for russian roulette to me.

    Or claymore mines, for that matter.

    Inquisitor
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    I have to imagine that pistol duels fell out of favor relatively quickly in Germany as the lethality rate shot up? Or did this not hold true?

    A sword duel standing in measure the entire time certainly sounds preferable to that nonsense.

    I mean probably but it's way more fun to talk about the brief time where this was happening than to discuss when everyone reasonably backed down from it

    I'm not saying to not talk about that brief time I'm asking a question because what you said was interesting and made me curious.

    Sorry for being curious?

    I'm sorry man, I wasn't trying to be snarky
    I'm just going by memory of the book in question and I don't recall to what extent they described that practice falling out of favor

    QRK7dOP.gif
    PSN: GrahamCR | 3DS Friend Code: 4399-2068-5090 | Switch Friend Code: SW-7440-9863-2027
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    So here's an interesting story regarding dueling and gentlemanly honor and whatnot, related to me by my old stage combat (rapier and dagger woo!) professor.

    There was an English gentleman and a Dutch gentleman, and both loved the same woman. Being gentleman, they agreed to settle it as gentleman would, with a duel. Now, there's a lot of protocol and stuff that goes into these things, so sometimes these can take a while to coordinate! Manner of dress, pistols or swords or fists, what type of pistols or swords, who could and could not be present, where the duel would take place and at what time, attending physicians and any number of other minute details that had to be sorted out. Now, multiply all of that by the difficulty of communication over long distances when hand-written letters and sailing ships were the only method of communication and you begin to see how an Englishman and a Dutchman might take a while to suss things out.

    This duel took literal years to coordinate, during which time the men formed a close friendship through their correspondence and the woman whom they both loved married someone else. But, still, honor must be satisfied, so they met on neutral ground, and having settled on rapiers as their weapon of choice, set about their business. One of them was killed from a severed jugular within about fifteen seconds and the other died later from an infected wound.

    Dueling!

    Also, as you might imagine, most duels ended within about fifteen to twenty seconds. This also holds true for common street fights.

    I actually learned a lot about dueling and real swordplay in my stage combat class!

    Also, one of my professor's own teachers was friggin Mandy Patinkin, aka Inigo friggin Montoya. Interestingly, all of the sword techniques and stuff mentioned in Princess Bride? Actual historical sword techniques and stances and whatnot.

    TofystedethKrieghundsarukunMatevIvarDuke 2.0Slacker71JoolandercB557
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Sorry for taking your post the wrong way and being counter snarky then. I'm super curious to how long pistol dueling stuck around after those kinds of changes, I wonder if maybe that's why we saw sword dueling and dueling scars become a thing later on in Germany.

    While we are talking about Germany though the last interesting historical thing I learned about was the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael.

    Eben-Emael was a Belgian fortress on the Dutch-Belgian border. It was considered to be impregnable, at the time was the largest fortress in the world, and was considered by many to be the strongest fortress in the world. Military minds figured it impossible to take. It occupied a large hill, bordered a canal, and was covered in guns. It had:

    -six 120mm artillery pieces with a range of ten miles
    -sixteen 75mm artillery pieces
    -twelve 60mm high-velocity anti-tank guns
    -twenty-five twin-mounted machine-guns
    -a number of anti-aircraft guns
    -the three sides facing land were defended by minefields; deep ditches; a 20 feet (6.1 m) high wall and concrete pillboxes fitted with machine-guns
    -fifteen searchlights

    An extensive network of tunnels ran beneath the fortress and it was staffed by 1,200 men.

    Eben-Emael.jpg

    fort_yeben_yemayel_belgiya.png

    Spoilers, the Germans took the fortress with 85 men. 85.

    How? Well, they reasoned that while the fortress could project fire all around it, it couldn't project fire on top of itself. So, if they just managed to get on top of it they should stand a reasonable chance. The question was just how to get there without being shot to death by the bevy of anti aircraft guns.

    Enter the glider:

    DFS_230.jpg

    Yes, the glider. Military planners figured that the Fort used sound location arrays and not radar, and that the incredibly silent glider, if delivered at night, should be able to slip in. Four teams were assembled, one for the Fortress, three for the three surrounding bridges (those needed to be secured before they could be blown up and could potentially put fire at the men on top of the fortress).

    At 4:30 in the morning the 42 gliders were towed into the air by their leading planes. The planes, to keep surprise, maintained complete radio silence. One tow rope snapped in flight, one got released early, most went according to plan. Those two gliders however? Both contained men with the intended of the Fortress itself, and one of them contained the leader of the entire task force. The second in command was going to have to hold things down until he arrived later.

    Using shaped charges and flamethrowers, task force granite (the task force assigned to eben emael) destroyed the turrets that could aim at them and the troops at the bridge and drove the defenders down into the fortress with fire. With the turrets and firing ports either captured or disabled, the only way up to the roof was up a single spiral staircase which the German's kept locked down.

    Bundesarchiv_Billd_146-1971-011-27%2C_Belgien%2C_Eben_Emael%2C_Fallschirmj%C3%A4ger.jpg

    The plan had called for group granite to be relieved a few hours after taking the fort, but due to complications they were not relieved until 7:00 the following day. The 85 men held the fort for over a day. They ultimately lost 6 men and suffered 21 wounded. Unsurprisingly, they were all personally decorated by Hitler for their efforts in the assault, and the rapid fall of what was thought to be an invincible fortress gave great credence to the German feint, making their dummy offense in Belgian look like the real threat to force everyone to look there instead of the Ardennes.

    IronKnuckle's GhostNijaMatevSlacker71Rainfall
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular

    LalaboxKwoaruHermanoRMS OceanicErlecPolaritieToxHefflingTofystedethNijaMatevJoolandercB557Kaplardarunia106
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Wouldn't scars mean you weren't very good?

    In the 18th and 19th century, scars were also admired in the context of warfare since "bravery" mostly manifested itself through receiving wounds, especially as an officer

    Killing other people on the people on the battlefield was considered a necessity, but overall distasteful

    The heroism lay in exposing oneself to danger

    ZibblsnrtDuke 2.0
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    Although I must say the same idea of distastefulness didn't seem to have applied in the context of colonial warfare where violence or what we would nowadays call war crimes were often celebrated

    Probably because such violence signaled an inherent superiority on the part of the colonizer

    Bombay Telegraph September 1857, on the Sack of Delhi:
    All the city people within the walls when our troops entered were bayonetted on the spot; and the number was considerable, as you may suppose, when I tell you that in some houses forty and fifty people were hiding. Those were not mutineers, but residents of the city, who trusted to our well-known mild rule for pardon. I am glad to say they were disappointed.

    Don't let anyone tell you there was anything gentlemanly about British colonialsm

    ZellpherMetzger MeisterGvzbgulStraightziFencingsaxchrishallett83VegemyteSkeithHermanoInquisitormasterofmetroidJoeUserToxTrippyJingSolarMatevMagellDuke 2.0Slacker71RainfallPhillishereLoisLanedarunia106
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    I personally think the German army's main "mistake" during the Rape of Belgium lay in applying that which had been tested in colonial warfare in a European theater

    Reprisals against civilians as a response to guerilla warfare were commonplace in Africa and Asia and the British, French, Germans and Americans all engaged in them

    I was disappointed that for example the "Great War" Youtube series doesn't discuss this

    tynicInquisitorZellpherZibblsnrtSolar
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Wouldn't scars mean you weren't very good?

    In the 18th and 19th century, scars were also admired in the context of warfare since "bravery" mostly manifested itself through receiving wounds, especially as an officer

    Killing other people on the people on the battlefield was considered a necessity, but overall distasteful

    The heroism lay in exposing oneself to danger

    Red Badge of Courage

    cB557
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I personally think the German army's main "mistake" during the Rape of Belgium lay in applying that which had been tested in colonial warfare in a European theater

    Reprisals against civilians as a response to guerilla warfare were commonplace in Africa and Asia and the British, French, Germans and Americans all engaged in them

    I was disappointed that for example the "Great War" Youtube series doesn't discuss this

    It's kind of fascinating how often the German High Command would favour a strategy that they deemed militarily necessary but was also politically destructive. Invading Belgium to begin with, the harsh reprisals, unrestricted submarine warfare. They seemed to have no gumption about how all these would look.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    tynic wrote: »
    Rome fell because geese have no place in political decision-making.

    There, I said it.
    Rome fell because of the fourth crusade.

    Gundi on
    ZibblsnrtKayne Red RobeKanaRMS Oceanic
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    In the 18th and 19th century, scars were also admired in the context of warfare since "bravery" mostly manifested itself through receiving wounds, especially as an officer

    Killing other people on the people on the battlefield was considered a necessity, but overall distasteful

    The heroism lay in exposing oneself to danger

    Even nowadays - Purple Hearts and their international equivalents are seen as a big deal, coupled with modern warfare generally having a lot more warranty-claim-generating stuff flitting about than 18th or 19th-century warfare. (I remember reading something saying the average Red Army lieutenant in the Second World War was wounded seven times or so.)

    Sure, you're way more likely than ever before to survive the process, but it's seen as important.
    Gundi wrote: »
    Rome fell because of the fourth crusade.

    By that point Rome was falling because it had just gotten into the habit and couldn't not fall every couple of centuries...

    tynicRMS OceanicDuke 2.0
  • TrippyJingTrippyJing Moses supposes his toeses are roses. But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered User regular
    Brainleech wrote: »
    I like the era leading up the American revolution and after
    I like Victorian Europe for how bonkers and serious it was
    I like the Dark Ages
    I like the Holy Roman empire during the medieval era
    I like WW1 and 2 for various reasons
    I like the 1880's - 1920 America as it's really neat and bonkers what we did in the name for 'Merica

    Boom de yada
    Boom de yada
    Boom de yada
    Boom de yada

    b1ehrMM.gif
    ZibblsnrtAl_watFencingsaxHefflingTofystedethDuke 2.0JoolandercB557darunia106
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Paging Grey Ghost for all the shit he was telling me about the dueling book he read recently

    GERMANY: Exactly as insane as expected

    You wanna talk crazy let's talk about the German pistol duels

    Now by this point most other dueling codes throughout Europe allowed the parties to fire into the air or the ground and then both men had done their duty as gentlemen and they could go their separate ways with nobody dead and nobody losing face

    Germans said no sir you will not do this hippie shit on our watch. If German duelers tried to throw away their shot, the seconds were supposed to stop the proceedings, reload and reset, and do it again the right way

    Additionally, whereas most other countries considered a wounding blow sufficient, in Germany you aimed for the center mass. One in the chest, motherfucker. While even this might not have been a death sentence with traditional smoothbore dueling pistols, Germans were increasingly began using revolvers, which were exponentially more accurate and deadly.

    If you got in a pistol duel in Germany you better have been ready to put a man in the ground or wind up there yourself

    Germany, the Texas of Europe.

    Well, a lot of Germans settled in Texas.

    Like, a whole lot. Such to the point that the Texas Legislature passed the Loyalty Laws in 1918 prohibiting speaking German in public. The folks in New Braunfels protested that pretty heavily.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    Darth WaiterTofystedethSlacker71Joolander
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Aren't there still communities in Texas that are predominantly German speaking?

    Also, why Texas? Like, I can understand Scandinavian immigrants settling in the great lakes regions, and Scotch-Irish settlers moving to the south, but as far as geography and climate Texas seems like a pretty far cry from Germany.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    A lot of Germans settled in the entirety of the US. That's why you have places like Fredericksburg,(There are multiple) Mecklenburg County, Hannover, Hassel, Brunswick, New Berlin, New Bern, Badin, etc.

    There are probably more towns and municipalities in the US with German inspired names than French. (And maybe more than Spanish too.)

    Edit: The reason why Texas in particular is probably just because there was a lot of relatively cheap land.

    Gundi on
    Dead LegendDarth WaiterSlacker71
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I personally think the German army's main "mistake" during the Rape of Belgium lay in applying that which had been tested in colonial warfare in a European theater

    Reprisals against civilians as a response to guerilla warfare were commonplace in Africa and Asia and the British, French, Germans and Americans all engaged in them

    I was disappointed that for example the "Great War" Youtube series doesn't discuss this

    I read an interesting article about the American War of Independence, and how the British Army acted there compared to how it acted in other parts of the Empire against local revolutionaries. The article's theory was that essentially, the British Army didn't display anything like it's customary brutality because the idea of acting in such a way against white, Christian imperial subjects was not on.

    BahamutZERO
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_German

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Texan

    So, Galveston was a port of entry for a number of '48ers who decided to get outta Europe while the getting was good, and so those Germans ended up settling in the Texas Hill Country

    Dead Legend on
    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    Darth Waiter
  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    A lot of Germans settled in the entirety of the US. That's why you have places like Fredericksburg,(There are multiple) Mecklenburg County, Hannover, Hassel, Brunswick, New Berlin, New Bern, Badin, etc.

    There are probably more towns and municipalities in the US with German inspired names than French. (And maybe more than Spanish too.)

    Edit: The reason why Texas in particular is probably just because there was a lot of relatively cheap land.

    There is a reason why America had to decide between English versus German for which language would become the dominant one during the ol' colony days.

    2mw6ukw.jpg
  • ASimPersonASimPerson And they will tremble again at the sound of our silence.Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    I have German ancestry on both sides. On my Mom's side, they wound up in Kansas, on my Dad's side, the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia.

    Thanks to the release of the 1930 Census a few years back, I know that my grandfather on my Mom's side spoke German at home.

    ASimPerson on
    redoctober2.png
    SE++ Forum Battle Archive | PDT is not PST | DRUNKSTUCK: A Homestuck recap
  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    Cool story, Karl Marx loved Texas and might have come to live in the state in Austin.

    Would've been something to have Karl Marx a founder of UT...

    raoADVy.png
    GvzbgulPlaty
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    I should probably dig a little deeper on genealogy websites or whatever, but I've definitely got German on both sides of family, but I think the deepest claim is for my dad's mother, whose maiden name was Hess, which supposedly had settled in Georgia after the Revolutionary War, and then found their way to Texas eventually.

    I know my mom's mother, her parents had definitely arrived prior to WW1 from Germany, and they definitely spoke German for a long time, and her extended family is huge and centered heavily around towns with heavy German influence and population, mainly on the Gulf-coast of Texas.

    But I would need to see some shit on paper before I start believing in family lore passed on too much

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    I'm trying to get back on a genealogy kick myself after digging up a bit of family history last year. Workplaces that have Ancestry accounts are cool.

    The main Argh bit right now is trying to get a hold of a great-grandfather's military records. Ottawa has them, and they're being digitized, buuuuut there's over 600,000 of them, they're being digitized alphabetically, and his surname is Stewart. Siiigh.

    (Fun thing about family history from his time and the generation or two prior to him - their neck of the woods was such a mining community that in the censuses there'd be two-year-olds with their occupation listed as "miner." Some things make me okay with living in the present..)

  • LalaboxLalabox Registered User regular
    My family has had a lot of interesting history. I think we've traced a bunch of it, but basically everyone has been moved around by wars and the like, so it's probably somewhat hard and based off a lot of word of mouth. I mean, I know a few interesting things, like the fact that one of my great grandfathers was a russian aristocrat who owned an offshoot line of the trans Siberian railway and who was one of the people who established a large russian community in Australia, and another great grandfather who lived to 111, and was part of the Polish government and military when it was based out of Edinburgh in ww2, after they got chased out of their own country.

    I know that my dad's dad was an orphan who didn't know his last name until he was 18, and my dad's mum was disowned by her family after her mum remarried, and her step dad didn't like her.

    My mum's mum lived in Nazi occupied La Rochelle in Western France, until they managed to flee to the UK.

    Lost SalientDisruptedCapitalist
Sign In or Register to comment.