[Dark Souls 3] Dark Souls 2 is a good game that is fun and great.

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  • UrielUriel Registered User regular
    Can't you also hit the ghosts with a magic buffed weapon?

  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Stilts wrote: »
    His main arguments are
    1) The difficulty provides you with a sense of accomplishment once you finally overcome the odds
    2) The feeling of dread at the constant possibility of death is important for setting the mood
    3) The difficulty forces you to learn the combat systems instead of button-mashing

    Again, these are the exact same arguments that the Souls community has trotted out before (except #3 is usually just shortened to "git gud").

    When he gets to the section of how other games with similar intents have included difficulty options, he not only fails to ask why they included them when Dark Souls didn't, but he also doesn't bother asking what benefits those difficulty options bring?

    Instead, he spends all his time talking about the negative aspects of difficulty options.

    EDIT: Like, we've had better discussions in this thread.

    I pretty much agree, those are definitely arguments I've seen over and over for DS to never change, also in regards to pausing/invading, not just difficulty

    For me, the biggest obstacle for difficulty options are the multiplayer always-online aspects

    In general I have an extremely hard time believing there is a compelling reason (other than budget and time constraints of course) to not have difficulty options in games

    The older I get the more I feel like accessibility is king

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  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Resident Evil 4 has adaptive difficulty.

    A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Resident Evil 4 has adaptive difficulty.

    A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.

    Interestingly enough that guy actually has a video on how brilliant re4's adaptable difficulty is, so vov

    Chincymcchilla
  • BilliardballBilliardball Registered User regular
    Blue Sentinels/Blades of the Darkmoon are proving a bit of a pain to raise rank in.

    Which is kind of aggravating because it would be so, so easy to make it way better.

    All you'd need to do is make it work like Sunbroing and have the Way of the Blue people being helped get the covenant item at the same time as the co-operator.

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Mirro wrote: »
    Ok what direction do I need to go in for the red eye orb? I forgot what leonhart said
    in the high wall, on the bottom floor of the tower the second bonfire's on top of
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Wait there's a ring that makes you look like you're not a phantom?
    and one that makes you appear as a white phantom, they're both sold by Yuria.

    That ain't what that item description says! But awesome!
    Stilts wrote: »
    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Resident Evil 4 has adaptive difficulty.

    A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.

    Interestingly enough that guy actually has a video on how brilliant re4's adaptable difficulty is, so vov

    RE4's adaptive difficulty is my favorite implementation of that concept

    Does anyone else do anything even close to that?

    dN0T6ur.png
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Has anyone tried using a red orb as a blue cop?

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Mirro wrote: »
    Ok what direction do I need to go in for the red eye orb? I forgot what leonhart said
    in the high wall, on the bottom floor of the tower the second bonfire's on top of
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Wait there's a ring that makes you look like you're not a phantom?
    and one that makes you appear as a white phantom, they're both sold by Yuria.

    That ain't what that item description says! But awesome!
    Stilts wrote: »
    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Resident Evil 4 has adaptive difficulty.

    A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.

    Interestingly enough that guy actually has a video on how brilliant re4's adaptable difficulty is, so vov

    RE4's adaptive difficulty is my favorite implementation of that concept

    Does anyone else do anything even close to that?

    Not that I know of

    The big thing that makes it work in re4 is that they never once alluded to that mechanic existing, unless you're picking that game apart you would never know it does that

    Wyborn
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Has anyone tried using a red orb as a blue cop?

    im pretty sure I have at some point, its just like normal

    gtrmp
  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    Haha what, this game has the Second Chance miracle? That shit is hilarious, how is no one using it.

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  • DrDinosaurDrDinosaur Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Has anyone tried using a red orb as a blue cop?

    I have, you appear as a red phantom and upon killing the host you receive a severed tongue like any other red phantom

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Shen wrote: »
    Haha what, this game has the Second Chance miracle? That shit is hilarious, how is no one using it.

    i've used it before but not regularly since it takes two attunement slots, it seems to have a duration that kicks in after you receive damage for the first time, for so slow burn bossfights its a waste

    oh yeah, that reminds me

    either I am the luckiest motherfucker on earth, or there's a hidden property on the Sunless armor set that grants a Second-Chance like effect

    because yesterday I got hit down 1-pixel health about four times in a two hour window and lived

    Jasconius on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    The big problem is that different player skill levels means that the dark souls experience is not the same for everyone

    For some people an area is just hard enough to be harrowing while still being ultimately possible, while for others the area is such a brick wall that they throw the disc in the river, and for others still the area is no sweat at all and people are exaggerating the difficulty in dark souls

    Selectable difficulties don't really address that though, because like he points out in the video, players lack the information necessary to choose the difficulty setting that would properly tune the game to their skill level

    The in-game ways to make things easier are a pretty handy way to make it work, but the co op in particular can feel a bit sloppy because it can often feel like you're not even doing anything if your summon is much better than you are. No one likes being told "ugh you suck just gimme the controller."

    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    I feel like levelling up already serves as a form of adaptive difficulty in dark souls.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    The big problem is that different player skill levels means that the dark souls experience is not the same for everyone

    For some people an area is just hard enough to be harrowing while still being ultimately possible, while for others the area is such a brick wall that they throw the disc in the river, and for others still the area is no sweat at all and people are exaggerating the difficulty in dark souls

    Selectable difficulties don't really address that though, because like he points out in the video, players lack the information necessary to choose the difficulty setting that would properly tune the game to their skill level

    The in-game ways to make things easier are a pretty handy way to make it work, but the co op in particular can feel a bit sloppy because it can often feel like you're not even doing anything if your summon is much better than you are. No one likes being told "ugh you suck just gimme the controller."

    IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery

    I would hate this system, I don't want the game lowering the bar just because I die. That ironically feels like a penalty for dying to me, actually. The idea shouldn't be that only the players who never die get to see the true difficulty, that's antithetical to these games' core philosophy of progressing by trial and error and practice.

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  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

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  • Kevin CristKevin Crist I make the devil hit his knees and say the 'our father'Registered User regular
    Naphtali wrote: »
    so right before pax I started a pyro character

    what's the best way to get the most damage out of it? I've been raising faith/int, got the fire damage ring from undead settlement, and upgraded the pyro flame and I feel like fire ball's damage hasn't gone up a terrible lot? or is it I just need better spells

    This is my Pyro @SL 94
    43hRgwu.jpg

    I might stop at 35 INT/FLH and get more END and VIG

    My Chaos Fireball does 585 (Not counting lava tic) versus the Dancer. Thats with +7 Flame, Swamp Ring, Witch Ring and Fire Clutch Ring. 4th Ring is either Sage or Silver Serpent.

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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    Can I ask why?

    You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it

    The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    Can I ask why?

    You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it

    The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better

    yes, that is the part that we don't like

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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    So last night..
    I made it into Lothric Castle. I was doing fine (well, dying but making process which is fine in DS speak), until i found that damn mini-dancer in the basement. I musta died about 30 times trying to get him down last night, then just when i got him down to a sliver of health, Steam disconnected on me and kicked me to the start screen...

    Is it just me or is From just trolling us by making the third souls game that does that same stupid 'select quit game' and it takes you back to the main menu but makes you relog into the servers just so you can tell it to quit to desktop.... I mean let us quit straight to desktop From...

    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
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  • Kevin CristKevin Crist I make the devil hit his knees and say the 'our father'Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    Can I ask why?

    You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it

    The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better

    It's not you getting better, it's them getting worse.

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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    Can I ask why?

    You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it

    The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better

    It's not you getting better, it's them getting worse.

    You would also still get better

    On account of doing the same thing over and over and learning boss patterns, as you do now

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  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    I think the only way you could do this would be to make a boss more likely to use one of its slower, easier-to-dodge attacks rather than its faster, more damaging attacks depending on how many times it had already killed you

    But that'd have to be obfuscated to such a degree that the majority would never know it was there, and I don't know that it would even be worth it

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    you can lower the boss's damage and health too

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  • HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls

    Can I ask why?

    You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it

    The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better

    It's not you getting better, it's them getting worse.

    You would also still get better

    On account of doing the same thing over and over and learning boss patterns, as you do now

    But the sense of accomplishment is lessened by knowing you didn't beat the boss as it was designed


    PSN- AHermano
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Why not just be upfront about it and make the adaptive difficulty an option?

    The people who would be put off by the option probably wouldn't be pleased by other difficulty options anyway; and the people who need it would avoid the problem of trying to figure out how much to lower the difficulty by (since the system does it for them).

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    to me success feels more hollow if you know the test was made easier for you

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    Why not just be upfront about it and make the adaptive difficulty an option?

    The people who would be put off by the option probably wouldn't be pleased by other difficulty options anyway; and the people who need it would avoid the problem of trying to figure out how much to lower the difficulty by (since the system does it for them).

    if they had to add adaptive difficulty I think making it an up-front option I could opt out of would be the only way I could tolerate it well yeah

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  • rhylithrhylith Registered User regular
    I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.

    Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.

    Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.

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  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Satchitananda Pais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    Something like the covenant version of the chicken hat from MGS5 wouldn't be horrible I guess.

    I would have used it for ole Fumey, that's for sure. Only souls boss I never managed to beat.

    I reckon I'll pick up scholar of the 1st sin on sale at some point and have another go at him. He's such a jerk.

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  • DaypigeonDaypigeon Registered User regular
    rubber-band ai in certain racing games is the big other instance i can think of (of adaptive difficulty)

    like there, it's really important to make it not too obvious, because that can get obnoxious pretty fast once you realize what's happening

  • MaximumMaximum Registered User regular
    I don't know if this game is easier than any other one I've played, or it's just now finally clicked with me. I rerolled a strength based character on Friday, and I've cruised all the way up to Farron Keep with little to no problems yet.

    Got my Dark Sword up to +4, my Curse Ward Greatshield up to +2, some spiky fucking armor, and I am just wreaking everything in this swamp.




    I'm about to die a lot, aren't I?

  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    rhylith wrote: »
    I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.

    Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.

    Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.

    Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, not everything is for everybody

    Dark Souls can change, certainly, and perhaps should, now that there's been (essentially) five of these games. But those changes should be motivated by the creator(s) and the experience they want to convey and not necessarily by attempting to broaden the audience

    There's an artistic focus to all the Souls games that I've always admired, especially in games where that can be so rare. They are nothing less or more than what they are trying to be, and I would hate to lose that by picking it apart

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  • ProlegomenaProlegomena Frictionless Spinning The VoidRegistered User regular
    Fashion time:
    PELtyUE.jpgpRmhBpS.jpg

    Olivaw
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Oh motherfucker I missed the pit of hollows bonfire

    Fuck
    Fuck
    Fuck
    Fucking fuck

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
  • DrDinosaurDrDinosaur Registered User regular
    rhylith wrote: »
    I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.

    Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.

    Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.

    "Video game Everest" is a good way to describe how I feel about it

    I think an important part of Dark Souls is the shared experience, and that's reinforced through the distribution of its lore, the design of bosses, the message system, the NPCs, and the multiplayer.

    Changing that experience robs it of some of its value, and when so few games are doing everything that Dark Souls does, I think that value is something worth defending.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Deep breath

    You can jump in that pit
    And survive the landing
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  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    it's nice when a youtube preview image sums up the entire video

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  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    it is annoying when non-invaders disrupt fight club. Like i get it, you don't always expect to be thrown into a situation where there are 4 other phantoms in an area fighting 1v1 for fun. that's cool, you can leave. there is a pit you can jump down, there is a black crystal, why you gotta be the guy who back stabs the host and breaks it up?

    It's even worse when a purple does it. If you can win some fights you actually get your item and go home. none of the reds get that, they're just fighting for sport. you can actually get paid.

    In short, having the ability to screen summon/summoners would be weird but i think would solve every argument this thread has had about online conduct.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    to me success feels more hollow if you know the test was made easier for you

    ds3 hasn't been datamined yet, are you sure that system doesn't already exist

    how would you even know

    i'm not talking about shunting you into easy mode, i'm talking about the game putting its thumb on the scale and pressing ever so slightly more firmly on it after every death. if it is at all perceptible it is a bad system

    and in one light, it is sort of a penalty for poor play. in which case i would entreat you to






    git gud

    Speed Racer on
    Chincymcchilla
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    come to think of it, i never played demon's souls but isn't that sort of what world tendency was?

This discussion has been closed.