His main arguments are
1) The difficulty provides you with a sense of accomplishment once you finally overcome the odds
2) The feeling of dread at the constant possibility of death is important for setting the mood
3) The difficulty forces you to learn the combat systems instead of button-mashing
Again, these are the exact same arguments that the Souls community has trotted out before (except #3 is usually just shortened to "git gud").
When he gets to the section of how other games with similar intents have included difficulty options, he not only fails to ask why they included them when Dark Souls didn't, but he also doesn't bother asking what benefits those difficulty options bring?
Instead, he spends all his time talking about the negative aspects of difficulty options.
EDIT: Like, we've had better discussions in this thread.
I pretty much agree, those are definitely arguments I've seen over and over for DS to never change, also in regards to pausing/invading, not just difficulty
For me, the biggest obstacle for difficulty options are the multiplayer always-online aspects
In general I have an extremely hard time believing there is a compelling reason (other than budget and time constraints of course) to not have difficulty options in games
The older I get the more I feel like accessibility is king
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
Blue Sentinels/Blades of the Darkmoon are proving a bit of a pain to raise rank in.
Which is kind of aggravating because it would be so, so easy to make it way better.
All you'd need to do is make it work like Sunbroing and have the Way of the Blue people being helped get the covenant item at the same time as the co-operator.
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.
Interestingly enough that guy actually has a video on how brilliant re4's adaptable difficulty is, so vov
RE4's adaptive difficulty is my favorite implementation of that concept
Does anyone else do anything even close to that?
Not that I know of
The big thing that makes it work in re4 is that they never once alluded to that mechanic existing, unless you're picking that game apart you would never know it does that
Haha what, this game has the Second Chance miracle? That shit is hilarious, how is no one using it.
i've used it before but not regularly since it takes two attunement slots, it seems to have a duration that kicks in after you receive damage for the first time, for so slow burn bossfights its a waste
oh yeah, that reminds me
either I am the luckiest motherfucker on earth, or there's a hidden property on the Sunless armor set that grants a Second-Chance like effect
because yesterday I got hit down 1-pixel health about four times in a two hour window and lived
The big problem is that different player skill levels means that the dark souls experience is not the same for everyone
For some people an area is just hard enough to be harrowing while still being ultimately possible, while for others the area is such a brick wall that they throw the disc in the river, and for others still the area is no sweat at all and people are exaggerating the difficulty in dark souls
Selectable difficulties don't really address that though, because like he points out in the video, players lack the information necessary to choose the difficulty setting that would properly tune the game to their skill level
The in-game ways to make things easier are a pretty handy way to make it work, but the co op in particular can feel a bit sloppy because it can often feel like you're not even doing anything if your summon is much better than you are. No one likes being told "ugh you suck just gimme the controller."
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
I feel like levelling up already serves as a form of adaptive difficulty in dark souls.
The big problem is that different player skill levels means that the dark souls experience is not the same for everyone
For some people an area is just hard enough to be harrowing while still being ultimately possible, while for others the area is such a brick wall that they throw the disc in the river, and for others still the area is no sweat at all and people are exaggerating the difficulty in dark souls
Selectable difficulties don't really address that though, because like he points out in the video, players lack the information necessary to choose the difficulty setting that would properly tune the game to their skill level
The in-game ways to make things easier are a pretty handy way to make it work, but the co op in particular can feel a bit sloppy because it can often feel like you're not even doing anything if your summon is much better than you are. No one likes being told "ugh you suck just gimme the controller."
IMO the best solution would be adaptive difficulty, tweak the numbers on the enemies so that they get easier every time you die and get harder the longer you stay alive, within certain bounds of course. That way, the stated goal of "making the player feel like they've overcome insurmountable odds" is accomplished for everyone, because the bar is always being set to be just barely inside your skill range. The system could be cheesed by just throwing yourself off a cliff over and over, but you could counter that by giving incentives for keeping the difficulty high, like greater soul payouts or higher item discovery
I would hate this system, I don't want the game lowering the bar just because I die. That ironically feels like a penalty for dying to me, actually. The idea shouldn't be that only the players who never die get to see the true difficulty, that's antithetical to these games' core philosophy of progressing by trial and error and practice.
what's the best way to get the most damage out of it? I've been raising faith/int, got the fire damage ring from undead settlement, and upgraded the pyro flame and I feel like fire ball's damage hasn't gone up a terrible lot? or is it I just need better spells
I might stop at 35 INT/FLH and get more END and VIG
My Chaos Fireball does 585 (Not counting lava tic) versus the Dancer. Thats with +7 Flame, Swamp Ring, Witch Ring and Fire Clutch Ring. 4th Ring is either Sage or Silver Serpent.
I made it into Lothric Castle. I was doing fine (well, dying but making process which is fine in DS speak), until i found that damn mini-dancer in the basement. I musta died about 30 times trying to get him down last night, then just when i got him down to a sliver of health, Steam disconnected on me and kicked me to the start screen...
Is it just me or is From just trolling us by making the third souls game that does that same stupid 'select quit game' and it takes you back to the main menu but makes you relog into the servers just so you can tell it to quit to desktop.... I mean let us quit straight to desktop From...
Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
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Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
Yeah any system that made bosses easier the more you died would kind of ruin dark souls
I think the only way you could do this would be to make a boss more likely to use one of its slower, easier-to-dodge attacks rather than its faster, more damaging attacks depending on how many times it had already killed you
But that'd have to be obfuscated to such a degree that the majority would never know it was there, and I don't know that it would even be worth it
Why not just be upfront about it and make the adaptive difficulty an option?
The people who would be put off by the option probably wouldn't be pleased by other difficulty options anyway; and the people who need it would avoid the problem of trying to figure out how much to lower the difficulty by (since the system does it for them).
Why not just be upfront about it and make the adaptive difficulty an option?
The people who would be put off by the option probably wouldn't be pleased by other difficulty options anyway; and the people who need it would avoid the problem of trying to figure out how much to lower the difficulty by (since the system does it for them).
if they had to add adaptive difficulty I think making it an up-front option I could opt out of would be the only way I could tolerate it well yeah
I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.
Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.
Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
Something like the covenant version of the chicken hat from MGS5 wouldn't be horrible I guess.
I would have used it for ole Fumey, that's for sure. Only souls boss I never managed to beat.
I reckon I'll pick up scholar of the 1st sin on sale at some point and have another go at him. He's such a jerk.
I don't know if this game is easier than any other one I've played, or it's just now finally clicked with me. I rerolled a strength based character on Friday, and I've cruised all the way up to Farron Keep with little to no problems yet.
Got my Dark Sword up to +4, my Curse Ward Greatshield up to +2, some spiky fucking armor, and I am just wreaking everything in this swamp.
I'm about to die a lot, aren't I?
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.
Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.
Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.
Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, not everything is for everybody
Dark Souls can change, certainly, and perhaps should, now that there's been (essentially) five of these games. But those changes should be motivated by the creator(s) and the experience they want to convey and not necessarily by attempting to broaden the audience
There's an artistic focus to all the Souls games that I've always admired, especially in games where that can be so rare. They are nothing less or more than what they are trying to be, and I would hate to lose that by picking it apart
I know too many people that see Dark Souls as their video game Everest. It's built a reputation as being tough but fair, and a game that you can through sheer willpower and practice eventually overcome.
Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.
Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.
"Video game Everest" is a good way to describe how I feel about it
I think an important part of Dark Souls is the shared experience, and that's reinforced through the distribution of its lore, the design of bosses, the message system, the NPCs, and the multiplayer.
Changing that experience robs it of some of its value, and when so few games are doing everything that Dark Souls does, I think that value is something worth defending.
it is annoying when non-invaders disrupt fight club. Like i get it, you don't always expect to be thrown into a situation where there are 4 other phantoms in an area fighting 1v1 for fun. that's cool, you can leave. there is a pit you can jump down, there is a black crystal, why you gotta be the guy who back stabs the host and breaks it up?
It's even worse when a purple does it. If you can win some fights you actually get your item and go home. none of the reds get that, they're just fighting for sport. you can actually get paid.
In short, having the ability to screen summon/summoners would be weird but i think would solve every argument this thread has had about online conduct.
to me success feels more hollow if you know the test was made easier for you
ds3 hasn't been datamined yet, are you sure that system doesn't already exist
how would you even know
i'm not talking about shunting you into easy mode, i'm talking about the game putting its thumb on the scale and pressing ever so slightly more firmly on it after every death. if it is at all perceptible it is a bad system
and in one light, it is sort of a penalty for poor play. in which case i would entreat you to
Posts
I pretty much agree, those are definitely arguments I've seen over and over for DS to never change, also in regards to pausing/invading, not just difficulty
For me, the biggest obstacle for difficulty options are the multiplayer always-online aspects
In general I have an extremely hard time believing there is a compelling reason (other than budget and time constraints of course) to not have difficulty options in games
The older I get the more I feel like accessibility is king
Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Resident Evil 4 has adaptive difficulty.
A fact he seems oblivious to when he talks about RE4's design choices.
Interestingly enough that guy actually has a video on how brilliant re4's adaptable difficulty is, so vov
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Which is kind of aggravating because it would be so, so easy to make it way better.
All you'd need to do is make it work like Sunbroing and have the Way of the Blue people being helped get the covenant item at the same time as the co-operator.
That ain't what that item description says! But awesome!
RE4's adaptive difficulty is my favorite implementation of that concept
Does anyone else do anything even close to that?
Not that I know of
The big thing that makes it work in re4 is that they never once alluded to that mechanic existing, unless you're picking that game apart you would never know it does that
http://www.audioentropy.com/
im pretty sure I have at some point, its just like normal
I have, you appear as a red phantom and upon killing the host you receive a severed tongue like any other red phantom
My Steam
i've used it before but not regularly since it takes two attunement slots, it seems to have a duration that kicks in after you receive damage for the first time, for so slow burn bossfights its a waste
oh yeah, that reminds me
either I am the luckiest motherfucker on earth, or there's a hidden property on the Sunless armor set that grants a Second-Chance like effect
because yesterday I got hit down 1-pixel health about four times in a two hour window and lived
I feel like levelling up already serves as a form of adaptive difficulty in dark souls.
https://medium.com/@alascii
I would hate this system, I don't want the game lowering the bar just because I die. That ironically feels like a penalty for dying to me, actually. The idea shouldn't be that only the players who never die get to see the true difficulty, that's antithetical to these games' core philosophy of progressing by trial and error and practice.
https://medium.com/@alascii
This is my Pyro @SL 94
I might stop at 35 INT/FLH and get more END and VIG
My Chaos Fireball does 585 (Not counting lava tic) versus the Dancer. Thats with +7 Flame, Swamp Ring, Witch Ring and Fire Clutch Ring. 4th Ring is either Sage or Silver Serpent.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Can I ask why?
You still throw yourself at the obstacle until you surmount it
The only difference is it slowly comes down to meet you as you get better
yes, that is the part that we don't like
Is it just me or is From just trolling us by making the third souls game that does that same stupid 'select quit game' and it takes you back to the main menu but makes you relog into the servers just so you can tell it to quit to desktop.... I mean let us quit straight to desktop From...
It's not you getting better, it's them getting worse.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
You would also still get better
On account of doing the same thing over and over and learning boss patterns, as you do now
I think the only way you could do this would be to make a boss more likely to use one of its slower, easier-to-dodge attacks rather than its faster, more damaging attacks depending on how many times it had already killed you
But that'd have to be obfuscated to such a degree that the majority would never know it was there, and I don't know that it would even be worth it
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
But the sense of accomplishment is lessened by knowing you didn't beat the boss as it was designed
PSN- AHermano
The people who would be put off by the option probably wouldn't be pleased by other difficulty options anyway; and the people who need it would avoid the problem of trying to figure out how much to lower the difficulty by (since the system does it for them).
if they had to add adaptive difficulty I think making it an up-front option I could opt out of would be the only way I could tolerate it well yeah
Changing the difficulty, especially dynamically without informing the player, would cheapen that feeling you get when you finish this previously impossible thing.
Also their sales are fine despite not having it so they shouldn't rock the boat and risk losing their biggest fans who love the game in no small part because of its difficulty.
I would have used it for ole Fumey, that's for sure. Only souls boss I never managed to beat.
I reckon I'll pick up scholar of the 1st sin on sale at some point and have another go at him. He's such a jerk.
like there, it's really important to make it not too obvious, because that can get obnoxious pretty fast once you realize what's happening
Got my Dark Sword up to +4, my Curse Ward Greatshield up to +2, some spiky fucking armor, and I am just wreaking everything in this swamp.
I'm about to die a lot, aren't I?
Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, not everything is for everybody
Dark Souls can change, certainly, and perhaps should, now that there's been (essentially) five of these games. But those changes should be motivated by the creator(s) and the experience they want to convey and not necessarily by attempting to broaden the audience
There's an artistic focus to all the Souls games that I've always admired, especially in games where that can be so rare. They are nothing less or more than what they are trying to be, and I would hate to lose that by picking it apart
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Fuck
Fuck
Fuck
Fucking fuck
"Video game Everest" is a good way to describe how I feel about it
I think an important part of Dark Souls is the shared experience, and that's reinforced through the distribution of its lore, the design of bosses, the message system, the NPCs, and the multiplayer.
Changing that experience robs it of some of its value, and when so few games are doing everything that Dark Souls does, I think that value is something worth defending.
My Steam
You can jump in that pit
And survive the landing
Check out @douglasdanger's Tweet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UQP5VdlG5s
It's even worse when a purple does it. If you can win some fights you actually get your item and go home. none of the reds get that, they're just fighting for sport. you can actually get paid.
In short, having the ability to screen summon/summoners would be weird but i think would solve every argument this thread has had about online conduct.
ds3 hasn't been datamined yet, are you sure that system doesn't already exist
how would you even know
i'm not talking about shunting you into easy mode, i'm talking about the game putting its thumb on the scale and pressing ever so slightly more firmly on it after every death. if it is at all perceptible it is a bad system
and in one light, it is sort of a penalty for poor play. in which case i would entreat you to
git gud
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/