4E had major issues but did some things really right. 5E has major issues, but did some things really right. Unfortunately they decided to forget about some of the things 4E did fantastically, like making building encounters and custom monsters much easier.
Thankfully 13th Age was like hey, we could just put the best of both worlds in one game plus some other fun goodies. I only wish I'd discovered 13A before I started GMing my current 5E game, because it's definitely the system i'll be running my next game.
I do appreciate that for 5th they'd tried to flatten the math. I feel like it wasn't very successful, but that could have been mad monster design (see also: centaurs)
Bounded accuracy succeeded. It's why you can keep your main offensive stat at 16 into the teens and still hit enemies. Plus spell saves scale up with proficiency but monsters rarely have proficiency in the saves, so spellcasters get to land their spells regularly. That aspect of the game is really good.
Honestly, my only major complaints with 5E are from the GM's side. Creating custom monsters and designing encounters involves way too much goofiness that is just so unnecessary. They just threw out the good stuff 4E did in that regard. Yet another thing I like about 13th Age, which does things similarly to 4E.
I kinda liked the idea of the advantages/disadvantages from 5E but I couldn't bring that to 13th Age because rerolls happen so often anyhow. Like Humans get it for initiative, Druids do it, I think fighters do it, rangers do it with one of their talents, and I like monks do too.
Overall, great idea but 5E feels like a step back from 4E while 13th Age was the step forwards.
Cool. So, professional miniature painting is stupid expensive. I mean, really freaking expensive. A couple years ago I bought into the Robotech Tactics kickstarter because I love Robotech and I love minis. I didn't realize at the time they were coming unpainted (because I'm dumb and don't read things carefully). I have arthritis, so I figured I'd splurge and look for someone else to paint them. I figured I'd be looking at something like $10/mini or so. When I looked into it, though, all I could find were places charging like $50+/mini. I just about had a heart attack at what they were asking. So, I still have a box of unpainted minis here. It makes me sad.
Obviously I don't know how bad your condition is but a good way to make mini's look great is just to base coat them a simple colour like white and then cover it in a wash. It makes them look super presentable as game pieces even if the details not all there.
If I had a group of really dedicated IRL gamer friends I'd give 4th ed another crack. Some of the stuff Gabe was doing with it looked so damn fun.
But as it stands my friends found combat too slow and struggled with the crunch. I'm going to stick to 13th Age because it feels a lot easier to play IRL and in PbPs.
In another of my out of the blue gaming reports that no one asks for, I made a make-shift Apocalypse World hack for playing Harvest Moon / farming in an quaint countryside game for my nieces and girl mates. It was pretty cool yo.
A sheep went and got itself lost, heavy rain ruined the lower dale, Ariel's roof was mended, a cave was explored, slightly, and old Lord Havecroft was convinced to attend the moonlit festival and loosen up. A tale of epic proportions.
S'alright! There's not much written in stone, it helps that the players requested its creation- it meant everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet.
So far you can play an optimistic rookie, an old guy, a coward, a pie cooking mom or a lazy person.
I'll give you the file some time if you like @Amigu.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
An Apocalypse World hack would be so good for this. The players are always pushed to make the most irrational and self-damaging choices and every roll can blow up in your face. It's already basically a soap opera game, but set in a wasteland instead of a McMansion.
Better yet, do a game about the lives of the actors in a soap opera. Because it would be amazing to have people play actors who hate each other but their characters are in relationships, people pushing for more camera time, and the director having to deal with the executives coming down wanting to boost ratings and stuff happening behind the scenes affecting what happens on screen.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Better yet, do a game about the lives of the actors in a soap opera. Because it would be amazing to have people play actors who hate each other but their characters are in relationships, people pushing for more camera time, and the director having to deal with the executives coming down wanting to boost ratings and stuff happening behind the scenes affecting what happens on screen.
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
DramaSystem fills that role.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Better yet, do a game about the lives of the actors in a soap opera. Because it would be amazing to have people play actors who hate each other but their characters are in relationships, people pushing for more camera time, and the director having to deal with the executives coming down wanting to boost ratings and stuff happening behind the scenes affecting what happens on screen.
So you want to RP "Jane the Virgin"?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
4E had major issues but did some things really right. 5E has major issues, but did some things really right. Unfortunately they decided to forget about some of the things 4E did fantastically, like making building encounters and custom monsters much easier.
Thankfully 13th Age was like hey, we could just put the best of both worlds in one game plus some other fun goodies. I only wish I'd discovered 13A before I started GMing my current 5E game, because it's definitely the system i'll be running my next game.
Almost all of the issues were introduced in supplements which, in true D&D fashion, were considered part of the "rules" rather than "options." This, for what it's worth, is why being released as D&D was to its detriment, not that it in any way dragged down the D&D name.
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
Better yet, do a game about the lives of the actors in a soap opera. Because it would be amazing to have people play actors who hate each other but their characters are in relationships, people pushing for more camera time, and the director having to deal with the executives coming down wanting to boost ratings and stuff happening behind the scenes affecting what happens on screen.
4E had major issues but did some things really right. 5E has major issues, but did some things really right. Unfortunately they decided to forget about some of the things 4E did fantastically, like making building encounters and custom monsters much easier.
Thankfully 13th Age was like hey, we could just put the best of both worlds in one game plus some other fun goodies. I only wish I'd discovered 13A before I started GMing my current 5E game, because it's definitely the system i'll be running my next game.
Almost all of the issues were introduced in supplements which, in true D&D fashion, were considered part of the "rules" rather than "options." This, for what it's worth, is why being released as D&D was to its detriment, not that it in any way dragged down the D&D name.
4E had issues as soon as it released that made me and all the people I play RPGs with dislike it after only playing it for a few months. Of about 10 people I know who play games together in various groups, not a single one liked the system.
Thankfully the majority opinion was the same and they ran away from it. Just a shame they didn't keep the better monster/encounter creation of 4E, because it's really the only thing I would've wanted in 5E from that game.
I don't actually think the majority opinion was anti-4e. I think it sold pretty well and saw a lot of usage. People just tend to disregard that based on their own experiences.
I wish I had some sales data to back that opinion but no
I don't actually think the majority opinion was anti-4e. I think it sold pretty well and saw a lot of usage. People just tend to disregard that based on their own experiences.
I wish I had some sales data to back that opinion but no
Sales of the June 2008 set of core rulebooks exceeded Wizards of the Coast's expectations, requiring them to order additional books to be printed even before the books' release date.[4] By third quarter 2010, however, sales of 4th edition products were tied with those of Paizo Publishing's Pathfinder, based on supplier interviews.[5]
I don't actually think the majority opinion was anti-4e. I think it sold pretty well and saw a lot of usage. People just tend to disregard that based on their own experiences.
I wish I had some sales data to back that opinion but no
Sales of the June 2008 set of core rulebooks exceeded Wizards of the Coast's expectations, requiring them to order additional books to be printed even before the books' release date.[4] By third quarter 2010, however, sales of 4th edition products were tied with those of Paizo Publishing's Pathfinder, based on supplier interviews.[5]
So really really good, but Ryan Dancey stole a lot of money from them and they were mad.
Well actually they did really really good but really really good for a PnP RPG is not really really good compared to Magic the Gathering money, and so because of dumb Hasbro executive-initiatives that's why we got a new edition of D&D to try and meet unrealistic metrics.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2016
The great irony being that because Wizards were so obsessed with creating a walled garden for 4E and not being as open license wise, they created their main competitor. I really wonder how 5E does against Pathfinder. When 5E came out the gaming club I went to used to have 7 concurrent 5E games (including my own). By the middle of the next year, it had 1 (mine) and then 0 (when I changed my 5E game to Night's Black Agents). I think there is only one still being run and the rest are all Pathfinder.
The great irony being that because Wizards were so obsessed with creating a walled garden for 4E and not being as open license wise, they created their main competitor. I really wonder how 5E does against Pathfinder. When 5E came out the gaming club I went to used to have 7 concurrent 5E games (including my own). By the middle of the next year, it had 1 (mine) and then 0 (when I changed my 5E game to Night's Black Agents). I think there is only one still being run and the rest are all Pathfinder.
4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".
Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.
I usually think of it as three legs. Simulationist, Gamist, Narrativist.
A Simulationist system asks "How can we make this work like the real world?"
A Gamist system asks "How can I make this work as a game?"
A Narrativist system asks "How can we make this work like it would in stories?"
I've also made it sound like they're all binaries (well, ternaries) where you must be one or the other which isn't really true. Systems are a mix of the three attitudes and while the stronger one gets the weaker the other two become they're all needed to a certain extent.
I feel like I should add that after spending time considering this as I write up notes for next weekend's session of Exalted...
All systems are narrativist systems if you're playing with a good group. I hesitate to say it's the Platonic ideal of role-playing gaming but sometimes I feel like that might be the case.
Apparently the new Savage Worlds Rifts rules have a mechanic that is basically a semi-random countdown clock on PC Juicers that will eventually kill them and it's done in terms of sessions. And they can artificially shorten their lifespan to be especially awesome for a few minutes.
I fully approve of this. The standard Juicer lifetime of 6 or so years was way too long to matter to the vast majority of campaigns.
4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".
Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.
I usually think of it as three legs. Simulationist, Gamist, Narrativist.
A Simulationist system asks "How can we make this work like the real world?"
A Gamist system asks "How can I make this work as a game?"
A Narrativist system asks "How can we make this work like it would in stories?"
I've also made it sound like they're all binaries (well, ternaries) where you must be one or the other which isn't really true. Systems are a mix of the three attitudes and while the stronger one gets the weaker the other two become they're all needed to a certain extent.
I feel like I should add that after spending time considering this as I write up notes for next weekend's session of Exalted...
All systems are narrativist systems if you're playing with a good group. I hesitate to say it's the Platonic ideal of role-playing gaming but sometimes I feel like that might be the case.
This is the whole thing that any game can be made fun with the right group and whether the system gets to claim credit for it. I would argue that humans are narrativists themselves so anything they do they tend to construct narratives about even if it is completely absent from the underlying activity.
I don't think their is much of a practical difference between what we're saying though.
I don't actually think the majority opinion was anti-4e. I think it sold pretty well and saw a lot of usage. People just tend to disregard that based on their own experiences.
I wish I had some sales data to back that opinion but no
Sales of the June 2008 set of core rulebooks exceeded Wizards of the Coast's expectations, requiring them to order additional books to be printed even before the books' release date.[4] By third quarter 2010, however, sales of 4th edition products were tied with those of Paizo Publishing's Pathfinder, based on supplier interviews.[5]
Yea, note that the "third quarter of 2010" is basically when they shifted into Essentials mode and went into a publishing hiatus for a few months as well as stopped updating their digital tools for new content.
Anyone have experience with Drivethru's print on demand internationally? I kinda decided to tell Exalted 3 to go fuck itself, and instead I'm probably going to get Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine in print (because a 560 page book is not a thing I'm willing to read in pdf). Can I expect my book to arrive soon and in decent shape, or should I assume it's going to be bashed half to death, like buying books on the internet sometimes causes? Because nearly 60€ between book and shipping is a fair chunk of change for a single RPG book...
4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".
Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.
I usually think of it as three legs. Simulationist, Gamist, Narrativist.
A Simulationist system asks "How can we make this work like the real world?"
A Gamist system asks "How can I make this work as a game?"
A Narrativist system asks "How can we make this work like it would in stories?"
I've also made it sound like they're all binaries (well, ternaries) where you must be one or the other which isn't really true. Systems are a mix of the three attitudes and while the stronger one gets the weaker the other two become they're all needed to a certain extent.
I feel like I should add that after spending time considering this as I write up notes for next weekend's session of Exalted...
All systems are narrativist systems if you're playing with a good group. I hesitate to say it's the Platonic ideal of role-playing gaming but sometimes I feel like that might be the case.
This is the whole thing that any game can be made fun with the right group and whether the system gets to claim credit for it. I would argue that humans are narrativists themselves so anything they do they tend to construct narratives about even if it is completely absent from the underlying activity.
I don't think their is much of a practical difference between what we're saying though.
Apparently the new Savage Worlds Rifts rules have a mechanic that is basically a semi-random countdown clock on PC Juicers that will eventually kill them and it's done in terms of sessions. And they can artificially shorten their lifespan to be especially awesome for a few minutes.
I fully approve of this. The standard Juicer lifetime of 6 or so years was way too long to matter to the vast majority of campaigns.
In sessions? That's nuts.*
"The big bad steps out of the shadows... and I think that's a great place to stop! Get ready for a fight next week, everybody."
"Wait, I need to roll one more thing. Shit!"
"Welp, Shelly just dropped dead of a heart attack. Good luck with that fight!"
*and totally fitting, with Rifts.
GNU Terry Pratchett
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
Apparently the new Savage Worlds Rifts rules have a mechanic that is basically a semi-random countdown clock on PC Juicers that will eventually kill them and it's done in terms of sessions. And they can artificially shorten their lifespan to be especially awesome for a few minutes.
I fully approve of this. The standard Juicer lifetime of 6 or so years was way too long to matter to the vast majority of campaigns.
In sessions? That's nuts.*
"The big bad steps out of the shadows... and I think that's a great place to stop! Get ready for a fight next week, everybody."
"Wait, I need to roll one more thing. Shit!"
"Welp, Shelly just dropped dead of a heart attack. Good luck with that fight!"
*and totally fitting, with Rifts.
Well years just isn't meaningful to most campaigns unless the DM goes out of the way to which makes it feel like they're picking on the Juicer.
Assuming that this isn't missing a golden opportunity the roll to find out would happen at the beginning of a session and just means you go out in that session. Obviously any human being would try and go out in a blaze of glory and awesomeness as human beings are want to do.
Apparently the new Savage Worlds Rifts rules have a mechanic that is basically a semi-random countdown clock on PC Juicers that will eventually kill them and it's done in terms of sessions. And they can artificially shorten their lifespan to be especially awesome for a few minutes.
I fully approve of this. The standard Juicer lifetime of 6 or so years was way too long to matter to the vast majority of campaigns.
In sessions? That's nuts.*
"The big bad steps out of the shadows... and I think that's a great place to stop! Get ready for a fight next week, everybody."
"Wait, I need to roll one more thing. Shit!"
"Welp, Shelly just dropped dead of a heart attack. Good luck with that fight!"
*and totally fitting, with Rifts.
Well years just isn't meaningful to most campaigns unless the DM goes out of the way to which makes it feel like they're picking on the Juicer.
Assuming that this isn't missing a golden opportunity the roll to find out would happen at the beginning of a session and just means you go out in that session. Obviously any human being would try and go out in a blaze of glory and awesomeness as human beings are want to do.
Well, the depends entirely on how the rule is written, and knowing rifts...
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Posts
Thankfully 13th Age was like hey, we could just put the best of both worlds in one game plus some other fun goodies. I only wish I'd discovered 13A before I started GMing my current 5E game, because it's definitely the system i'll be running my next game.
Honestly, my only major complaints with 5E are from the GM's side. Creating custom monsters and designing encounters involves way too much goofiness that is just so unnecessary. They just threw out the good stuff 4E did in that regard. Yet another thing I like about 13th Age, which does things similarly to 4E.
Overall, great idea but 5E feels like a step back from 4E while 13th Age was the step forwards.
Obviously I don't know how bad your condition is but a good way to make mini's look great is just to base coat them a simple colour like white and then cover it in a wash. It makes them look super presentable as game pieces even if the details not all there.
But as it stands my friends found combat too slow and struggled with the crunch. I'm going to stick to 13th Age because it feels a lot easier to play IRL and in PbPs.
A sheep went and got itself lost, heavy rain ruined the lower dale, Ariel's roof was mended, a cave was explored, slightly, and old Lord Havecroft was convinced to attend the moonlit festival and loosen up. A tale of epic proportions.
And now, back to your Dingeons and Drigons.
So far you can play an optimistic rookie, an old guy, a coward, a pie cooking mom or a lazy person.
I'll give you the file some time if you like @Amigu.
I really want to write a system that is basically "Soap Opera" the game, where the DM is a murderous writer and the goal of the PCs is to cause as much possible havok, drama, affairs and other classically Soap Opera bullshit before being dramatically murdered in some way (EG Written out of the show). Extra points for having an out of marriage lovechild and then while dying dramatically, confessing your affair to your lover so they have to live with the terrible knowledge the child isn't really theirs.
That sounds like a Fiasco if I ever heard of one!
An Apocalypse World hack would be so good for this. The players are always pushed to make the most irrational and self-damaging choices and every roll can blow up in your face. It's already basically a soap opera game, but set in a wasteland instead of a McMansion.
At that point you could probably write it as a hack of World Wide Wrestling.
DramaSystem fills that role.
So you want to RP "Jane the Virgin"?
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Telenovella is a good point for that too.
4E had issues as soon as it released that made me and all the people I play RPGs with dislike it after only playing it for a few months. Of about 10 people I know who play games together in various groups, not a single one liked the system.
Thankfully the majority opinion was the same and they ran away from it. Just a shame they didn't keep the better monster/encounter creation of 4E, because it's really the only thing I would've wanted in 5E from that game.
I wish I had some sales data to back that opinion but no
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/4th_edition
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
But, like, King of Small Mountain and all.
All systems are narrativist systems if you're playing with a good group. I hesitate to say it's the Platonic ideal of role-playing gaming but sometimes I feel like that might be the case.
I fully approve of this. The standard Juicer lifetime of 6 or so years was way too long to matter to the vast majority of campaigns.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This is the whole thing that any game can be made fun with the right group and whether the system gets to claim credit for it. I would argue that humans are narrativists themselves so anything they do they tend to construct narratives about even if it is completely absent from the underlying activity.
I don't think their is much of a practical difference between what we're saying though.
Yea, note that the "third quarter of 2010" is basically when they shifted into Essentials mode and went into a publishing hiatus for a few months as well as stopped updating their digital tools for new content.
*notes use of third person*
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Part two of Monsterhearts!
In sessions? That's nuts.*
"The big bad steps out of the shadows... and I think that's a great place to stop! Get ready for a fight next week, everybody."
"Wait, I need to roll one more thing. Shit!"
"Welp, Shelly just dropped dead of a heart attack. Good luck with that fight!"
*and totally fitting, with Rifts.
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
Well years just isn't meaningful to most campaigns unless the DM goes out of the way to which makes it feel like they're picking on the Juicer.
Assuming that this isn't missing a golden opportunity the roll to find out would happen at the beginning of a session and just means you go out in that session. Obviously any human being would try and go out in a blaze of glory and awesomeness as human beings are want to do.
Well, the depends entirely on how the rule is written, and knowing rifts...
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
So you get a chance to go out awesome. Which any decent group is going to make sure you have an opportunity to do so. Last call should be memorable.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.