The problem with that line of thinking is...well. There is an overload cost for everything here.
Flamewreathed faceless is OP. No doubt about it. It probably should have a slight rebalancing.
Feral spirit isn't really super powerful. Two 2/3s at 3 mana 2 overload isn't incredible really given that on turn 4 you either need to drop one of your subpar statted "fix overload" cards or it's just a 2 mana drop on turn 4.
Golem is slightly above normal (given that it's a 3/4 totem at 2+1 mana). If it's just its stats the Golem is just slightly better than the Neutral Twilight Elder (which puts it at "Desirable, but hardly OP"). Its strength is that it enables Tunnel Trogg, Thing from Below and (Less importantly) Unstable Elemental and other Totembuff cards.
Overload allows you to frontload, but overtime it really messes with your high-end non-overload drops. It's no coincidence that there is no Shaman C'thun deck.
There is Eternal Sentinel and Lava shock, but they're just two cards and they pay a fair amount in stats compared to other cards of their rarity and cost.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
I really dont like the fact that there is a meta, but it would only be a mistake if it were any other genre. "Okay, we're going to make Ryu garbage and Cammy invincible for two years and then swap..."
Um, that kind of happens? Fighting game characters see power go up and down between releases in the franchise/major updates.
See Metaknight being great initially in Smash Bros. Brawl, then trash in the next Smash, Diddy Kong going from a joke character in Brawl to unstoppable before being nerfed, Ivy being decent in Soul Calibur, insanely good in some of the sequels, brought back in line in the sequels after that . . .
I really dont like the fact that there is a meta, but it would only be a mistake if it were any other genre. "Okay, we're going to make Ryu garbage and Cammy invincible for two years and then swap..."
Um, that kind of happens? Fighting game characters see power go up and down between releases in the franchise/major updates.
See Metaknight being great initially in Smash Bros. Brawl, then trash in the next Smash, Diddy Kong going from a joke character in Brawl to unstoppable before being nerfed, Ivy being decent in Soul Calibur, insanely good in some of the sequels, brought back in line in the sequels after that . . .
Regular patching and updating is a trait of this generation and its consoles.
Well, Blizzard basically said they aren't going to change cards anymore due to the new standard rotation. People complaining about a 4 card combo doing 20 damage, r u kidding me?
I really dont like the fact that there is a meta, but it would only be a mistake if it were any other genre. "Okay, we're going to make Ryu garbage and Cammy invincible for two years and then swap..."
Um, that kind of happens? Fighting game characters see power go up and down between releases in the franchise/major updates.
See Metaknight being great initially in Smash Bros. Brawl, then trash in the next Smash, Diddy Kong going from a joke character in Brawl to unstoppable before being nerfed, Ivy being decent in Soul Calibur, insanely good in some of the sequels, brought back in line in the sequels after that . . .
Regular patching and updating is a trait of this generation and its consoles.
Revisions and updates to arcade fighting games were a thing well before this generation. PS2/Old XBox era Soul Calibur had regular revisions that tweaked character power levels in the arcade.
Shaman had all of that except Flamewreath last patch as well, but was still the worst or second worst class. That list I linked earlier on the page has only 5 WotOG cards.
Imo, it's dominance is more about all the other classes being significantly nerfed. Paladin and Druid lost a lot of their class cards and they were the major midrange decks last patch. Zoo has been forced back into a more aggro style than midrange. Patron lost Death's Bite which was enough to force them to drop Patron and essentially rebuild the deck. Shaman became the best midrange deck because everyone else fell off while Shaman's power level stayed the same.
Shaman terribleness was grossly exaggerated. They still had a tier 1 aggro deck. They weren't priest or hunter
+6
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Well, Blizzard basically said they aren't going to change cards anymore due to the new standard rotation. People complaining about a 4 card combo doing 20 damage, r u kidding me?
People have always complained about >10 damage from hand in one turn, because it feels bad to lose to. The Doomhammer also represents another 12 damage on its own.
So basically enough damage to kill someone at full health!
But yeah we should probably accept our new reality for the next year, it's extremely unlikely Blizzard will change anything until the next set rotation occurs.
I've got 300 wins as shaman prior to OG. I like the class a lot, it has great tools. It was damn near where it needed to be with Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, and Hallazeal + Thing from Below were poised to shore up that midgame. Flamewreathed Faceless is a gross over-correction. Like, Thing from Below is a 0 mana 5/5 taunt, and no one is talking about it, that's how dumb Flamewreathed is.
Similarly, I don't think anyone ever has complained about Grove Keeper specifically - just that silence is a powerful, not particularly fun effect that should be changed to either remove buffs or ignore wording, but not both. 2/4 is a bad statline for 3 mana, let alone 4 mana. 2/2 for 4 is just... I mean, Flamewreathed is 7/7 for 4*.
This isn't even comparing Mulch and Hex, Earth Shock and Grove Keeper, Sentinel and Innervate, Rockbiter and Feral Rage, Swipe and Lightning Storm, weapons and... Savage Combatant I guess?
Ah, the salt is so real.
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0
imdointhisI should actually stop doin' this.Registered Userregular
zoo warlock is disgusting. id rather play against secret paladin
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imdointhisI should actually stop doin' this.Registered Userregular
hey yeah let's give a class with near infinite resources a card that lets its one drops trade with 6 drops.
Shaman had all of that except Flamewreath last patch as well, but was still the worst or second worst class. That list I linked earlier on the page has only 5 WotOG cards.
Imo, it's dominance is more about all the other classes being significantly nerfed. Paladin and Druid lost a lot of their class cards and they were the major midrange decks last patch. Zoo has been forced back into a more aggro style than midrange. Patron lost Death's Bite which was enough to force them to drop Patron and essentially rebuild the deck. Shaman became the best midrange deck because everyone else fell off while Shaman's power level stayed the same.
Shaman terribleness was grossly exaggerated. They still had a tier 1 aggro deck. They weren't priest or hunter
i think one thing to remember when discussing things that are bad, is that a lot of classes still have niche, narrow toolkits even if they're good at their niche
i would still say that the shaman toolkit was terrible pre-patch, even though shammy aggro was great. and as a result you could make the argument that shaman as a whole is doing poorly.
it's the same reason i keep slagging off rogues - yeah, miracle is still a good deck right now. but as long as blizzard keeps designing rogue the way they are, a miracle style deck is the only kind of rogue deck that can be good, and when it is good feels borderline exploitative. as opposed to something like warrior, which has a nice, well-rounded toolkit that enables multiple deck archetypes to exist within the class
Shaman had all of that except Flamewreath last patch as well, but was still the worst or second worst class. That list I linked earlier on the page has only 5 WotOG cards.
Imo, it's dominance is more about all the other classes being significantly nerfed. Paladin and Druid lost a lot of their class cards and they were the major midrange decks last patch. Zoo has been forced back into a more aggro style than midrange. Patron lost Death's Bite which was enough to force them to drop Patron and essentially rebuild the deck. Shaman became the best midrange deck because everyone else fell off while Shaman's power level stayed the same.
Shaman terribleness was grossly exaggerated. They still had a tier 1 aggro deck. They weren't priest or hunter
i think one thing to remember when discussing things that are bad, is that a lot of classes still have niche, narrow toolkits even if they're good at their niche
i would still say that the shaman toolkit was terrible pre-patch, even though shammy aggro was great. and as a result you could make the argument that shaman as a whole is doing poorly.
it's the same reason i keep slagging off rogues - yeah, miracle is still a good deck right now. but as long as blizzard keeps designing rogue the way they are, a miracle style deck is the only kind of rogue deck that can be good, and when it is good feels borderline exploitative. as opposed to something like warrior, which has a nice, well-rounded toolkit that enables multiple deck archetypes to exist within the class
Rogue is obviously designed to throw out multiple cards a turn. It makes sense since it fits with their WoW design but it makes it really tough for them to not gravitate towards combo decks.
hey yeah let's give a class with near infinite resources a card that lets its one drops trade with 6 drops.
I just beat a hyper aggressive zoo list with double doomguard, double sea giant, double soulfire, he spent every turn ignoring my minions and going face
One turn he only had a 1/1 on board so he power overwhelminged it twice and domed me, then got 2 more PO from peddlers
they're also petrified of breaking rogue so they try as hard as they can to not print more cheap spells and keep trying to print Expensive Mans like Anub or the C'thun guy
and then it fails because the rogue core toys are the same
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
idk, there are lots of shaman but I have yet to feel like I couldn't do anything to stop them. certainly not more than I feel against any given class that draws well when I draw badly.
not worse than a solid secret pally or zoo draw
we can compare all day but the fact is it's not exactly like force/roar. there are a bunch of differences, it's just the current Most Annoying Card Combo. there will always be one, there will always be a class that threatens the most from an empty board, etc.
Old gods must have been the best update ever! I've been playing Hearthstone for a couple of weeks now so I can't wait till I get better at this game.
I've been playing for just over a year now, and I also can't wait until I get better at this game. Any day now...
It'll happen. My wife was playing for a long time and couldn't ever get past rank 15. All of a sudden, something clicked and now she's pushing rank 5 every month.
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Somehow I feel like it is way easier to hit higher ranks than before. Pretty much no matter what I play I still manage to win more than I lose. Not sure if it's because everything is balanced or people can't play well if they aren't told what to play.
Somehow I feel like it is way easier to hit higher ranks than before. Pretty much no matter what I play I still manage to win more than I lose. Not sure if it's because everything is balanced or people can't play well if they aren't told what to play.
Teach me your secrets! I've been stuck around 10-12 for over a week now and it's getting super fucking frustrating.
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+2
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
Shaman had all of that except Flamewreath last patch as well, but was still the worst or second worst class. That list I linked earlier on the page has only 5 WotOG cards.
Imo, it's dominance is more about all the other classes being significantly nerfed. Paladin and Druid lost a lot of their class cards and they were the major midrange decks last patch. Zoo has been forced back into a more aggro style than midrange. Patron lost Death's Bite which was enough to force them to drop Patron and essentially rebuild the deck. Shaman became the best midrange deck because everyone else fell off while Shaman's power level stayed the same.
Shaman terribleness was grossly exaggerated. They still had a tier 1 aggro deck. They weren't priest or hunter
i think one thing to remember when discussing things that are bad, is that a lot of classes still have niche, narrow toolkits even if they're good at their niche
i would still say that the shaman toolkit was terrible pre-patch, even though shammy aggro was great. and as a result you could make the argument that shaman as a whole is doing poorly.
it's the same reason i keep slagging off rogues - yeah, miracle is still a good deck right now. but as long as blizzard keeps designing rogue the way they are, a miracle style deck is the only kind of rogue deck that can be good, and when it is good feels borderline exploitative. as opposed to something like warrior, which has a nice, well-rounded toolkit that enables multiple deck archetypes to exist within the class
If they ever get nerf gadgezstan into the ground, the rogue class will be fundamentally broken from the ground up. It's terrible design on so many levels, because Auctioneer probably shouldn't work the way that it does, and the card existing limits design space - plus it was already nerfed for spare parts which weren't even a big part of the rogue class.
I would not want my classes future to hang on whether or not a neutral minion with an overpowered ability gets changed. I feel for you
Somehow I feel like it is way easier to hit higher ranks than before. Pretty much no matter what I play I still manage to win more than I lose. Not sure if it's because everything is balanced or people can't play well if they aren't told what to play.
Teach me your secrets! I've been stuck around 10-12 for over a week now and it's getting super fucking frustrating.
Honestly i've just always been assuming that they have "it", with it being whatever card is going to wreck you at any point in time. Most people are just slamming down their OP cards and not holding much back, it basically always lets you plan for worst case scenario and will usually put you ahead when they don't have it.
Its probably why I have the hardest time against freeze mage. They DO always have "it" and there isn't a whole lot of counterplay to freezes other than playing a different deck with more spells.
Somehow I feel like it is way easier to hit higher ranks than before. Pretty much no matter what I play I still manage to win more than I lose. Not sure if it's because everything is balanced or people can't play well if they aren't told what to play.
Teach me your secrets! I've been stuck around 10-12 for over a week now and it's getting super fucking frustrating.
Tempo warrior has been working great for me ranks 15 to 6, only matchup that seems really bad is Dragon priest which has too many taunts and ways to steal kill low dmg minions.
Lots of games it might feel like your digging for an answer but every card synergizes so well it usually helps. Only pulled cursed blade once and I was going to lose any way.
PSN SeGaTai
0
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
I'll add another endorsement for tempo warrior (rank 6 so far). Very fun to play and has reasonable matchups against much of the field. I've had trouble with control warrior and other heavy control decks that can run you out of threats, but against aggro and other midrange you're in a good position.
How critical is Malkorok to the Tempo Warrior build?
PSN: Holy-Promethium
0
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
He's really handy. I'm sure you could find an alternative but you'd be taking away a lot of power. If you have the black knight, he could go in that slot. Otherwise you could try nef or ysera for late game power at the cost of tempo.
Malkorok can be any 6 drop. He's sometimes slightly over costed and sometimes blowout value (Doomhammer/Gorehowl/etc.). Not particularly better than Sylvanas though.
Malkorok can also cause you to be in very bad situations if it gives you a cursed blade, sometimes it may be better to just go with another big beefy thing.
Aggro Shaman was certainly a strong deck last patch, but it was also the only deck the class had. It's a problem when your opponent knows 28/30 of your cards at the mulligan screen because you only do one thing and basically only have one list.
Malkorok can also cause you to be in very bad situations if it gives you a cursed blade, sometimes it may be better to just go with another big beefy thing.
There are 20 standard weapon cards. Which means you have a 5% chance to draw cursed blade. If there is a problem with Malkorok, thats not really it. Its the same thing with shredder occasionally dropping a doomsayer and wiping your board and that did not stop players from running shredder.
How critical is Malkorok to the Tempo Warrior build?
I subbed in Obsidian Destroyer. He's been ok, a big threat that has to be dealt with. I've considered switching for Sylvanas, Gorehowl or a Spellbreaker though
Aggro Shaman was certainly a strong deck last patch, but it was also the only deck the class had. It's a problem when your opponent knows 28/30 of your cards at the mulligan screen because you only do one thing and basically only have one list.
the plight of shaman - they only have one tier one deck list
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Flamewreathed faceless is OP. No doubt about it. It probably should have a slight rebalancing.
Feral spirit isn't really super powerful. Two 2/3s at 3 mana 2 overload isn't incredible really given that on turn 4 you either need to drop one of your subpar statted "fix overload" cards or it's just a 2 mana drop on turn 4.
Golem is slightly above normal (given that it's a 3/4 totem at 2+1 mana). If it's just its stats the Golem is just slightly better than the Neutral Twilight Elder (which puts it at "Desirable, but hardly OP"). Its strength is that it enables Tunnel Trogg, Thing from Below and (Less importantly) Unstable Elemental and other Totembuff cards.
Overload allows you to frontload, but overtime it really messes with your high-end non-overload drops. It's no coincidence that there is no Shaman C'thun deck.
There is Eternal Sentinel and Lava shock, but they're just two cards and they pay a fair amount in stats compared to other cards of their rarity and cost.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
i mean it probably has to do with there being no unique cool tools shaman get for running c'thun, much like how there's no c'thun paladin
Um, that kind of happens? Fighting game characters see power go up and down between releases in the franchise/major updates.
See Metaknight being great initially in Smash Bros. Brawl, then trash in the next Smash, Diddy Kong going from a joke character in Brawl to unstoppable before being nerfed, Ivy being decent in Soul Calibur, insanely good in some of the sequels, brought back in line in the sequels after that . . .
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Regular patching and updating is a trait of this generation and its consoles.
That said, CCGs are a pretty different beast, especially with expansions. It's like if Starcraft introduced 2-3 brand new units per race every year.
Revisions and updates to arcade fighting games were a thing well before this generation. PS2/Old XBox era Soul Calibur had regular revisions that tweaked character power levels in the arcade.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Shaman terribleness was grossly exaggerated. They still had a tier 1 aggro deck. They weren't priest or hunter
People have always complained about >10 damage from hand in one turn, because it feels bad to lose to. The Doomhammer also represents another 12 damage on its own.
So basically enough damage to kill someone at full health!
But yeah we should probably accept our new reality for the next year, it's extremely unlikely Blizzard will change anything until the next set rotation occurs.
Similarly, I don't think anyone ever has complained about Grove Keeper specifically - just that silence is a powerful, not particularly fun effect that should be changed to either remove buffs or ignore wording, but not both. 2/4 is a bad statline for 3 mana, let alone 4 mana. 2/2 for 4 is just... I mean, Flamewreathed is 7/7 for 4*.
This isn't even comparing Mulch and Hex, Earth Shock and Grove Keeper, Sentinel and Innervate, Rockbiter and Feral Rage, Swipe and Lightning Storm, weapons and... Savage Combatant I guess?
Ah, the salt is so real.
i think one thing to remember when discussing things that are bad, is that a lot of classes still have niche, narrow toolkits even if they're good at their niche
i would still say that the shaman toolkit was terrible pre-patch, even though shammy aggro was great. and as a result you could make the argument that shaman as a whole is doing poorly.
it's the same reason i keep slagging off rogues - yeah, miracle is still a good deck right now. but as long as blizzard keeps designing rogue the way they are, a miracle style deck is the only kind of rogue deck that can be good, and when it is good feels borderline exploitative. as opposed to something like warrior, which has a nice, well-rounded toolkit that enables multiple deck archetypes to exist within the class
Rogue is obviously designed to throw out multiple cards a turn. It makes sense since it fits with their WoW design but it makes it really tough for them to not gravitate towards combo decks.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
I just beat a hyper aggressive zoo list with double doomguard, double sea giant, double soulfire, he spent every turn ignoring my minions and going face
One turn he only had a 1/1 on board so he power overwhelminged it twice and domed me, then got 2 more PO from peddlers
I won with 1 HP
and then it fails because the rogue core toys are the same
Yes, it's shameless netdecking. But hey, for the first time ever, I'm enjoying playing Shaman.
not worse than a solid secret pally or zoo draw
we can compare all day but the fact is it's not exactly like force/roar. there are a bunch of differences, it's just the current Most Annoying Card Combo. there will always be one, there will always be a class that threatens the most from an empty board, etc.
I've been playing for just over a year now, and I also can't wait until I get better at this game. Any day now...
It'll happen. My wife was playing for a long time and couldn't ever get past rank 15. All of a sudden, something clicked and now she's pushing rank 5 every month.
Nintendo Network ID - PirateLuigi 3DS: 3136-6586-7691
G&T Grass Type Pokemon Gym Leader, In-Game Name: Dan
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Teach me your secrets! I've been stuck around 10-12 for over a week now and it's getting super fucking frustrating.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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it's difficult for a game to be both balanced and interesting
If they ever get nerf gadgezstan into the ground, the rogue class will be fundamentally broken from the ground up. It's terrible design on so many levels, because Auctioneer probably shouldn't work the way that it does, and the card existing limits design space - plus it was already nerfed for spare parts which weren't even a big part of the rogue class.
I would not want my classes future to hang on whether or not a neutral minion with an overpowered ability gets changed. I feel for you
Honestly i've just always been assuming that they have "it", with it being whatever card is going to wreck you at any point in time. Most people are just slamming down their OP cards and not holding much back, it basically always lets you plan for worst case scenario and will usually put you ahead when they don't have it.
Its probably why I have the hardest time against freeze mage. They DO always have "it" and there isn't a whole lot of counterplay to freezes other than playing a different deck with more spells.
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Tempo warrior has been working great for me ranks 15 to 6, only matchup that seems really bad is Dragon priest which has too many taunts and ways to steal kill low dmg minions.
Lots of games it might feel like your digging for an answer but every card synergizes so well it usually helps. Only pulled cursed blade once and I was going to lose any way.
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There are 20 standard weapon cards. Which means you have a 5% chance to draw cursed blade. If there is a problem with Malkorok, thats not really it. Its the same thing with shredder occasionally dropping a doomsayer and wiping your board and that did not stop players from running shredder.
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
I subbed in Obsidian Destroyer. He's been ok, a big threat that has to be dealt with. I've considered switching for Sylvanas, Gorehowl or a Spellbreaker though
the plight of shaman - they only have one tier one deck list
while at least 3 or more classes have none
They either blow you out quickly or they lose
And you know the ladder is gonna be filled with them so you already know how to tech any ladder deck against them
As long as I don't have to deal with the complete garbage of secret pally on ladder I'll take these lame - but honest - decks any day
*curves out, dumps hand, plays divine favor, continues to dump hand*