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This Thread Will Go Down in [History]

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  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    if we're going to talk about naval warfare, we gotta discuss the most important and least decisive battles of the last 300 years
    The Dual of the Ironclads
    Monitor, to the surprise of Virginia's crew, had emerged from behind the Minnesota and went straight for the approaching Virginia and positioned herself between her and the grounded Minnesota, preventing the Confederate ironclad from further engaging the vulnerable wooden ship at close range. At 8:45 am Worden gave the order to fire where Greene fired the first shots of the battle between the two ironclads which harmlessly deflected off the Confederate ironclad. During the battle Monitor fired solid shot, about once every eight minutes, while Virginia fired shell exclusively.[108] The ironclads generally fought at close range for about four hours, ending at 12:15pm,[109] [l] ranging from a few yards to more than a hundred. Both ships were constantly in motion, maintaining a circular pattern. Because of Virginia's weak engines, massive size and weight and with a draft of 22 ft (6.7 m), she was slow and difficult to maneuver, taking her half an hour to complete a 180-degree turn.[111]

    During the engagement, Monitor's turret began to malfunction, making it extremely difficult to turn and stop at a given position, so the crew simply let the turret continuously turn and fired their guns "on the fly" as they bore on Virginia. Several times, Monitor received direct hits on the turret, causing some bolts to violently shear off and ricochet around inside. The deafening sound of the impact stunned some of the crew, causing nose and ear bleeding.[112][113] However, neither vessel was able to sink or seriously damage the other. At one point, Virginia attempted to ram, but only struck Monitor a glancing blow and did no damage. The collision did, however, aggravate the damage to Virginia's bow from when she had previously rammed Cumberland. Monitor was also unable to do significant damage to Virginia, possibly due to the fact that her guns were firing with reduced charges, on advice from Commander John Dahlgren, the gun's designer, who lacked the "preliminary information" needed to determine what amount of charge was needed to "pierce, dislocate or dislodge iron plates" of various thicknesses and configurations.[56][114] [m] During the battle Stodder was stationed at the wheel that controlled the turning of the turret but at one point when he was leaning against its side the turret received a direct hit directly opposite to him which knocked him clear across the inside, rendering him unconscious, at where he was taken below to recover and relieved by Stimers.[106][115]

    The two vessels were pounding each other at such close range, they also managed to collide with one another at five different times.[116] By 11:00 am Monitor's supply of shot in the turret had been used up. With one of the hatches to the gun ports damaged and jammed shut she hauled off to shallow waters to resupply the turret and effect repairs to the damaged hatch, which could not be repaired. During the lull in the battle Worden climbed through the gun port out onto the deck to get a better view of the overall situation. Virginia, seeing Monitor turn away turned her attention to the Minnesota and fired shots that set the wooden vessel ablaze, also destroying the nearby tugboat Dragon. When the turret was resupplied with ammunition Worden returned to battle with only one gun in operation.[117]

    Towards the end of the engagement, Worden directed Williams to steer the Monitor around the stern of Confederate ironclad, where Lieutenant Wood fired his 7-inch Brooke gun at the vessel's pilothouse, striking the forward side directly beneath the sight hold, cracking the structural "iron log" along the base of the narrow opening just as Worden was peering out.[118] Worden was heard to have cried out, My eyes—I am blind! Others in the pilothouse had also been hit with fragments and were also bleeding.[119] Temporarily blinded by shell fragments and gunpowder residue from the explosion and believing the pilothouse to be severely damaged, Worden ordered Williams to sheer off into shallow water, where Virginia with her deep draft could not follow. There Monitor drifted idly for about twenty minutes.[120] At the time the pilothouse was struck Worden's injury was only known to those in the pilothouse and immediately nearby. With Worden severely wounded, command passed to the Executive Officer, Samuel Greene. Taken by surprise and confused he hesitated briefly and was undecided as to what action to take next,[119] but after assessing the damage soon ordered Monitor to return to the battle area.[106][117][121]

    Shortly after Monitor withdrew , Virginia had run aground at which time Commander Jones came down from the spar deck only to find the gun crews not returning fire. Jones demanded to know why and was briefed by Lieutenant Eggleston that powder was low and precious and given Monitor's resistance to shot after two hours of battle, maintained that continued firing at that point would only be a waste of ammunition.[26] Virginia soon managed to break away and headed back towards Norfolk, believing that Monitor had withdrawn from battle. Greene, now in command, did not pursue Virginia[122] and, like Worden, was under orders to stay with and protect the Minnesota,[123] an action for which he was later criticized.

    Why was the battle so significant? As soon as that battle occurred, every single other navy in the world was rendered completely irrelevant as a result of the massive technological leap. A single ironclad could destroy a blockade, and 5 of them could take on an entire armada with minimal losses and damage.

    USS_Monitor_James_River_1862.jpg
    image of the damage to the monitor

    Yeah what is incredible about this is that the battle followed the complete annihilation of wooden vessels by the CSS Virgina, and then the Monitor arrived and they both essentially bounced off each other. It was a leap forward in naval warfare which was unparalleled by almost any other invention in the field of warfare ever.

    valhalla130
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    if we're going to talk about naval warfare, we gotta discuss the most important and least decisive battles of the last 300 years
    The Dual of the Ironclads
    Monitor, to the surprise of Virginia's crew, had emerged from behind the Minnesota and went straight for the approaching Virginia and positioned herself between her and the grounded Minnesota, preventing the Confederate ironclad from further engaging the vulnerable wooden ship at close range. At 8:45 am Worden gave the order to fire where Greene fired the first shots of the battle between the two ironclads which harmlessly deflected off the Confederate ironclad. During the battle Monitor fired solid shot, about once every eight minutes, while Virginia fired shell exclusively.[108] The ironclads generally fought at close range for about four hours, ending at 12:15pm,[109] [l] ranging from a few yards to more than a hundred. Both ships were constantly in motion, maintaining a circular pattern. Because of Virginia's weak engines, massive size and weight and with a draft of 22 ft (6.7 m), she was slow and difficult to maneuver, taking her half an hour to complete a 180-degree turn.[111]

    During the engagement, Monitor's turret began to malfunction, making it extremely difficult to turn and stop at a given position, so the crew simply let the turret continuously turn and fired their guns "on the fly" as they bore on Virginia. Several times, Monitor received direct hits on the turret, causing some bolts to violently shear off and ricochet around inside. The deafening sound of the impact stunned some of the crew, causing nose and ear bleeding.[112][113] However, neither vessel was able to sink or seriously damage the other. At one point, Virginia attempted to ram, but only struck Monitor a glancing blow and did no damage. The collision did, however, aggravate the damage to Virginia's bow from when she had previously rammed Cumberland. Monitor was also unable to do significant damage to Virginia, possibly due to the fact that her guns were firing with reduced charges, on advice from Commander John Dahlgren, the gun's designer, who lacked the "preliminary information" needed to determine what amount of charge was needed to "pierce, dislocate or dislodge iron plates" of various thicknesses and configurations.[56][114] [m] During the battle Stodder was stationed at the wheel that controlled the turning of the turret but at one point when he was leaning against its side the turret received a direct hit directly opposite to him which knocked him clear across the inside, rendering him unconscious, at where he was taken below to recover and relieved by Stimers.[106][115]

    The two vessels were pounding each other at such close range, they also managed to collide with one another at five different times.[116] By 11:00 am Monitor's supply of shot in the turret had been used up. With one of the hatches to the gun ports damaged and jammed shut she hauled off to shallow waters to resupply the turret and effect repairs to the damaged hatch, which could not be repaired. During the lull in the battle Worden climbed through the gun port out onto the deck to get a better view of the overall situation. Virginia, seeing Monitor turn away turned her attention to the Minnesota and fired shots that set the wooden vessel ablaze, also destroying the nearby tugboat Dragon. When the turret was resupplied with ammunition Worden returned to battle with only one gun in operation.[117]

    Towards the end of the engagement, Worden directed Williams to steer the Monitor around the stern of Confederate ironclad, where Lieutenant Wood fired his 7-inch Brooke gun at the vessel's pilothouse, striking the forward side directly beneath the sight hold, cracking the structural "iron log" along the base of the narrow opening just as Worden was peering out.[118] Worden was heard to have cried out, My eyes—I am blind! Others in the pilothouse had also been hit with fragments and were also bleeding.[119] Temporarily blinded by shell fragments and gunpowder residue from the explosion and believing the pilothouse to be severely damaged, Worden ordered Williams to sheer off into shallow water, where Virginia with her deep draft could not follow. There Monitor drifted idly for about twenty minutes.[120] At the time the pilothouse was struck Worden's injury was only known to those in the pilothouse and immediately nearby. With Worden severely wounded, command passed to the Executive Officer, Samuel Greene. Taken by surprise and confused he hesitated briefly and was undecided as to what action to take next,[119] but after assessing the damage soon ordered Monitor to return to the battle area.[106][117][121]

    Shortly after Monitor withdrew , Virginia had run aground at which time Commander Jones came down from the spar deck only to find the gun crews not returning fire. Jones demanded to know why and was briefed by Lieutenant Eggleston that powder was low and precious and given Monitor's resistance to shot after two hours of battle, maintained that continued firing at that point would only be a waste of ammunition.[26] Virginia soon managed to break away and headed back towards Norfolk, believing that Monitor had withdrawn from battle. Greene, now in command, did not pursue Virginia[122] and, like Worden, was under orders to stay with and protect the Minnesota,[123] an action for which he was later criticized.

    Why was the battle so significant? As soon as that battle occurred, every single other navy in the world was rendered completely irrelevant as a result of the massive technological leap. A single ironclad could destroy a blockade, and 5 of them could take on an entire armada with minimal losses and damage.

    USS_Monitor_James_River_1862.jpg
    image of the damage to the monitor

    Yeah what is incredible about this is that the battle followed the complete annihilation of wooden vessels by the CSS Virgina, and then the Monitor arrived and they both essentially bounced off each other. It was a leap forward in naval warfare which was unparalleled by almost any other invention in the field of warfare ever.

    the virginia essentially took on the entire blockade by herself, and took out 3 warships the previous day

    every single naval power in the world that learned about that battle collectively shat themselves

    too many people think the american civil war was a backwoods conflict that didn't have much influence outside the states, and boy howdy are they fucking wrong

    the mini-ball, trench warfare, artillery cartridges, rifling, repeating firearms, revolving handguns, telegraph usage, fucking fax machines, battlefield medicine and the use of sanitation, metal warships, rotating ship turrets the death of Napoleonic battle line strategy

    just to name a few

    Der Waffle MousMetzger Meistera5ehrenvalhalla130MvrckThe Hanged ManHefflingRainfallBahamutZERO
  • V1mV1m regular Registered User regular
    Er rifling was well known before the American civil war I am p sure.

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Er rifling was well known before the American civil war I am p sure.

    modern gain-twist rifling was not

    hexagonal and other earlier methods were far less accurate but were employed much earlier

    also rifling was not typically standard in military arms

  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Oh it's pretty accepted by a lot of historians that the most effective land army in the world at the end of the US Civil War was the Union Army.

    But that happens quite a bit, when you see those kind of conflicts where the casualties are massive and long running, they result in pretty terrifying armed forces. Same with the Red Army at the end of WWII, sure it went in with massive problems (notably; officer purges had gutted them) lend lease combined with years of intense land based warfare had resulted in an awesomely capable army. The US and UK were pretty convinced that they'd get to Berlin first because there's no way the USSR (a backward, third world country with a wrecked industrial base and an army made up of peasant boys and women) could put together a force that would overrun eastern europe so quickly and they were massively wrong there as well. Churchill was so intimidated by the speed that the Red Army advanced that he even suggested following the surrender of Germany that they attack the USSR immediately to slow their impetus.

    Which is... insane really.

    Solar on
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    look, we beat jerry and I'll have none of it otherwise

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    also nathan bedford forrest and stonewall jackson were two of the most brilliant fighting generals that have ever lived

    it's a shame about the whole psycopathic racist thing

  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    You ever read The War Nerd, pip?

    I mean it's hyperbolic trash "history"

    but it's great fun

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    You ever read The War Nerd, pip?

    I mean it's hyperbolic trash "history"

    but it's great fun
    Nope but I read cracked for entertainment and take it with a grain of salt

  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    You ever read The War Nerd, pip?

    I mean it's hyperbolic trash "history"

    but it's great fun
    Nope but I read cracked for entertainment and take it with a grain of salt

    Check this out

    It's a quasi-joke site, Gary Brecher is a created character by an actual military historian and current events reporter

    but it's pretty well written and even insightful, though you absolutely have to take it with a pinch of salt

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    The CSS Virginia was originally another ship, wasn't it? I remember that from high school, the first Iron clad was Confederate, and was basically a rebuild of an already existing ship.

    I started doing some digging on the history of the Carolinas because I super curious why there's two states, considering Charlotte would have made a baller as hell capital for a combined state of Carolina. Learned some neat stuff, may work up a post at some point if I find anything particularly interesting enough.

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    The CSS Virginia was originally another ship, wasn't it? I remember that from high school, the first Iron clad was Confederate, and was basically a rebuild of an already existing ship.

    I started doing some digging on the history of the Carolinas because I super curious why there's two states, considering Charlotte would have made a baller as hell capital for a combined state of Carolina. Learned some neat stuff, may work up a post at some point if I find anything particularly interesting enough.

    Yeah, it was originally the Merrimack

    And oftentimes, the Virginia gets called the Merrimack instead, with the Battle of Hampton Roads often being called the Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimack

    ToxlonelyahavaMatevvalhalla130
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    The CSS Virginia was originally another ship, wasn't it? I remember that from high school, the first Iron clad was Confederate, and was basically a rebuild of an already existing ship.

    I started doing some digging on the history of the Carolinas because I super curious why there's two states, considering Charlotte would have made a baller as hell capital for a combined state of Carolina. Learned some neat stuff, may work up a post at some point if I find anything particularly interesting enough.

    Well I mean Charlotte itself wasn't a major city until WWI.

    When the US finally joined WWI, they didn't exactly have a huge standing army, so they needed thousands upon thousands of fresh new conscripts. That also meant they needed tons of new training facilities to organize these conscripts into (hopefully) effective fighting forces.

    One of those places ended up being Camp Greene, which due to lobbying by local politicians was constructed right next to Charlotte. The camp created a huge boom of construction and jobs, as the camp needed what was for the time top of the line modern infrastructure to support the tens of thousands of troops that moved through it. Charlotte was an average sized southern city, but by the time WWI ended and the camp was torn down a while after the war ended Charlotte had roughly doubled its population. And a lot of those people stayed, since Charlotte suddenly had become a pretty nice place to conduct business and build a life.

  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    if we're going to talk about naval warfare, we gotta discuss the most important and least decisive battles of the last 300 years
    The Dual of the Ironclads
    Monitor, to the surprise of Virginia's crew, had emerged from behind the Minnesota and went straight for the approaching Virginia and positioned herself between her and the grounded Minnesota, preventing the Confederate ironclad from further engaging the vulnerable wooden ship at close range. At 8:45 am Worden gave the order to fire where Greene fired the first shots of the battle between the two ironclads which harmlessly deflected off the Confederate ironclad. During the battle Monitor fired solid shot, about once every eight minutes, while Virginia fired shell exclusively.[108] The ironclads generally fought at close range for about four hours, ending at 12:15pm,[109] [l] ranging from a few yards to more than a hundred. Both ships were constantly in motion, maintaining a circular pattern. Because of Virginia's weak engines, massive size and weight and with a draft of 22 ft (6.7 m), she was slow and difficult to maneuver, taking her half an hour to complete a 180-degree turn.[111]

    During the engagement, Monitor's turret began to malfunction, making it extremely difficult to turn and stop at a given position, so the crew simply let the turret continuously turn and fired their guns "on the fly" as they bore on Virginia. Several times, Monitor received direct hits on the turret, causing some bolts to violently shear off and ricochet around inside. The deafening sound of the impact stunned some of the crew, causing nose and ear bleeding.[112][113] However, neither vessel was able to sink or seriously damage the other. At one point, Virginia attempted to ram, but only struck Monitor a glancing blow and did no damage. The collision did, however, aggravate the damage to Virginia's bow from when she had previously rammed Cumberland. Monitor was also unable to do significant damage to Virginia, possibly due to the fact that her guns were firing with reduced charges, on advice from Commander John Dahlgren, the gun's designer, who lacked the "preliminary information" needed to determine what amount of charge was needed to "pierce, dislocate or dislodge iron plates" of various thicknesses and configurations.[56][114] [m] During the battle Stodder was stationed at the wheel that controlled the turning of the turret but at one point when he was leaning against its side the turret received a direct hit directly opposite to him which knocked him clear across the inside, rendering him unconscious, at where he was taken below to recover and relieved by Stimers.[106][115]

    The two vessels were pounding each other at such close range, they also managed to collide with one another at five different times.[116] By 11:00 am Monitor's supply of shot in the turret had been used up. With one of the hatches to the gun ports damaged and jammed shut she hauled off to shallow waters to resupply the turret and effect repairs to the damaged hatch, which could not be repaired. During the lull in the battle Worden climbed through the gun port out onto the deck to get a better view of the overall situation. Virginia, seeing Monitor turn away turned her attention to the Minnesota and fired shots that set the wooden vessel ablaze, also destroying the nearby tugboat Dragon. When the turret was resupplied with ammunition Worden returned to battle with only one gun in operation.[117]

    Towards the end of the engagement, Worden directed Williams to steer the Monitor around the stern of Confederate ironclad, where Lieutenant Wood fired his 7-inch Brooke gun at the vessel's pilothouse, striking the forward side directly beneath the sight hold, cracking the structural "iron log" along the base of the narrow opening just as Worden was peering out.[118] Worden was heard to have cried out, My eyes—I am blind! Others in the pilothouse had also been hit with fragments and were also bleeding.[119] Temporarily blinded by shell fragments and gunpowder residue from the explosion and believing the pilothouse to be severely damaged, Worden ordered Williams to sheer off into shallow water, where Virginia with her deep draft could not follow. There Monitor drifted idly for about twenty minutes.[120] At the time the pilothouse was struck Worden's injury was only known to those in the pilothouse and immediately nearby. With Worden severely wounded, command passed to the Executive Officer, Samuel Greene. Taken by surprise and confused he hesitated briefly and was undecided as to what action to take next,[119] but after assessing the damage soon ordered Monitor to return to the battle area.[106][117][121]

    Shortly after Monitor withdrew , Virginia had run aground at which time Commander Jones came down from the spar deck only to find the gun crews not returning fire. Jones demanded to know why and was briefed by Lieutenant Eggleston that powder was low and precious and given Monitor's resistance to shot after two hours of battle, maintained that continued firing at that point would only be a waste of ammunition.[26] Virginia soon managed to break away and headed back towards Norfolk, believing that Monitor had withdrawn from battle. Greene, now in command, did not pursue Virginia[122] and, like Worden, was under orders to stay with and protect the Minnesota,[123] an action for which he was later criticized.

    Why was the battle so significant? As soon as that battle occurred, every single other navy in the world was rendered completely irrelevant as a result of the massive technological leap. A single ironclad could destroy a blockade, and 5 of them could take on an entire armada with minimal losses and damage.

    USS_Monitor_James_River_1862.jpg
    image of the damage to the monitor

    Yeah what is incredible about this is that the battle followed the complete annihilation of wooden vessels by the CSS Virgina, and then the Monitor arrived and they both essentially bounced off each other. It was a leap forward in naval warfare which was unparalleled by almost any other invention in the field of warfare ever.

    the virginia essentially took on the entire blockade by herself, and took out 3 warships the previous day

    every single naval power in the world that learned about that battle collectively shat themselves

    too many people think the american civil war was a backwoods conflict that didn't have much influence outside the states, and boy howdy are they fucking wrong

    the mini-ball, trench warfare, artillery cartridges, rifling, repeating firearms, revolving handguns, telegraph usage, fucking fax machines, battlefield medicine and the use of sanitation, metal warships, rotating ship turrets the death of Napoleonic battle line strategy

    just to name a few

    It's interesting to me that every major European power had what amounted to embedded journalists in both the Union and Confederate armies. It had been a generation or two since the last major war between industrialized nations, and everyone was super interested to see how forty years of military innovation would play out on the battlefield.

    It's like two colonies on Mars decided to have an all-out war with drones and nukes and computer viruses on both sides. Every military on Earth would be like "Motherfucker, I'm making some popcorn and getting out my notepad."

    GDdCWMm.jpg
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    if we're going to talk about naval warfare, we gotta discuss the most important and least decisive battles of the last 300 years
    The Dual of the Ironclads
    Monitor, to the surprise of Virginia's crew, had emerged from behind the Minnesota and went straight for the approaching Virginia and positioned herself between her and the grounded Minnesota, preventing the Confederate ironclad from further engaging the vulnerable wooden ship at close range. At 8:45 am Worden gave the order to fire where Greene fired the first shots of the battle between the two ironclads which harmlessly deflected off the Confederate ironclad. During the battle Monitor fired solid shot, about once every eight minutes, while Virginia fired shell exclusively.[108] The ironclads generally fought at close range for about four hours, ending at 12:15pm,[109] [l] ranging from a few yards to more than a hundred. Both ships were constantly in motion, maintaining a circular pattern. Because of Virginia's weak engines, massive size and weight and with a draft of 22 ft (6.7 m), she was slow and difficult to maneuver, taking her half an hour to complete a 180-degree turn.[111]

    During the engagement, Monitor's turret began to malfunction, making it extremely difficult to turn and stop at a given position, so the crew simply let the turret continuously turn and fired their guns "on the fly" as they bore on Virginia. Several times, Monitor received direct hits on the turret, causing some bolts to violently shear off and ricochet around inside. The deafening sound of the impact stunned some of the crew, causing nose and ear bleeding.[112][113] However, neither vessel was able to sink or seriously damage the other. At one point, Virginia attempted to ram, but only struck Monitor a glancing blow and did no damage. The collision did, however, aggravate the damage to Virginia's bow from when she had previously rammed Cumberland. Monitor was also unable to do significant damage to Virginia, possibly due to the fact that her guns were firing with reduced charges, on advice from Commander John Dahlgren, the gun's designer, who lacked the "preliminary information" needed to determine what amount of charge was needed to "pierce, dislocate or dislodge iron plates" of various thicknesses and configurations.[56][114] [m] During the battle Stodder was stationed at the wheel that controlled the turning of the turret but at one point when he was leaning against its side the turret received a direct hit directly opposite to him which knocked him clear across the inside, rendering him unconscious, at where he was taken below to recover and relieved by Stimers.[106][115]

    The two vessels were pounding each other at such close range, they also managed to collide with one another at five different times.[116] By 11:00 am Monitor's supply of shot in the turret had been used up. With one of the hatches to the gun ports damaged and jammed shut she hauled off to shallow waters to resupply the turret and effect repairs to the damaged hatch, which could not be repaired. During the lull in the battle Worden climbed through the gun port out onto the deck to get a better view of the overall situation. Virginia, seeing Monitor turn away turned her attention to the Minnesota and fired shots that set the wooden vessel ablaze, also destroying the nearby tugboat Dragon. When the turret was resupplied with ammunition Worden returned to battle with only one gun in operation.[117]

    Towards the end of the engagement, Worden directed Williams to steer the Monitor around the stern of Confederate ironclad, where Lieutenant Wood fired his 7-inch Brooke gun at the vessel's pilothouse, striking the forward side directly beneath the sight hold, cracking the structural "iron log" along the base of the narrow opening just as Worden was peering out.[118] Worden was heard to have cried out, My eyes—I am blind! Others in the pilothouse had also been hit with fragments and were also bleeding.[119] Temporarily blinded by shell fragments and gunpowder residue from the explosion and believing the pilothouse to be severely damaged, Worden ordered Williams to sheer off into shallow water, where Virginia with her deep draft could not follow. There Monitor drifted idly for about twenty minutes.[120] At the time the pilothouse was struck Worden's injury was only known to those in the pilothouse and immediately nearby. With Worden severely wounded, command passed to the Executive Officer, Samuel Greene. Taken by surprise and confused he hesitated briefly and was undecided as to what action to take next,[119] but after assessing the damage soon ordered Monitor to return to the battle area.[106][117][121]

    Shortly after Monitor withdrew , Virginia had run aground at which time Commander Jones came down from the spar deck only to find the gun crews not returning fire. Jones demanded to know why and was briefed by Lieutenant Eggleston that powder was low and precious and given Monitor's resistance to shot after two hours of battle, maintained that continued firing at that point would only be a waste of ammunition.[26] Virginia soon managed to break away and headed back towards Norfolk, believing that Monitor had withdrawn from battle. Greene, now in command, did not pursue Virginia[122] and, like Worden, was under orders to stay with and protect the Minnesota,[123] an action for which he was later criticized.

    Why was the battle so significant? As soon as that battle occurred, every single other navy in the world was rendered completely irrelevant as a result of the massive technological leap. A single ironclad could destroy a blockade, and 5 of them could take on an entire armada with minimal losses and damage.

    USS_Monitor_James_River_1862.jpg
    image of the damage to the monitor

    Yeah what is incredible about this is that the battle followed the complete annihilation of wooden vessels by the CSS Virgina, and then the Monitor arrived and they both essentially bounced off each other. It was a leap forward in naval warfare which was unparalleled by almost any other invention in the field of warfare ever.

    the virginia essentially took on the entire blockade by herself, and took out 3 warships the previous day

    every single naval power in the world that learned about that battle collectively shat themselves

    too many people think the american civil war was a backwoods conflict that didn't have much influence outside the states, and boy howdy are they fucking wrong

    the mini-ball, trench warfare, artillery cartridges, rifling, repeating firearms, revolving handguns, telegraph usage, fucking fax machines, battlefield medicine and the use of sanitation, metal warships, rotating ship turrets the death of Napoleonic battle line strategy

    just to name a few

    It's interesting to me that every major European power had what amounted to embedded journalists in both the Union and Confederate armies. It had been a generation or two since the last major war between industrialized nations, and everyone was super interested to see how forty years of military innovation would play out on the battlefield.

    It's like two colonies on Mars decided to have an all-out war with drones and nukes and computer viruses on both sides. Every military on Earth would be like "Motherfucker, I'm making some popcorn and getting out my notepad."

    It's even more present in the Japanese Russo war and the use of machine guns

    RMS OceanicMatev
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger regular PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    I read a thing that Forrest eventually renounced the Confederacy and the Klan.

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
  • XaquinXaquin regular Right behind you!Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    if we're going to talk about naval warfare, we gotta discuss the most important and least decisive battles of the last 300 years
    The Dual of the Ironclads
    Monitor, to the surprise of Virginia's crew, had emerged from behind the Minnesota and went straight for the approaching Virginia and positioned herself between her and the grounded Minnesota, preventing the Confederate ironclad from further engaging the vulnerable wooden ship at close range. At 8:45 am Worden gave the order to fire where Greene fired the first shots of the battle between the two ironclads which harmlessly deflected off the Confederate ironclad. During the battle Monitor fired solid shot, about once every eight minutes, while Virginia fired shell exclusively.[108] The ironclads generally fought at close range for about four hours, ending at 12:15pm,[109] [l] ranging from a few yards to more than a hundred. Both ships were constantly in motion, maintaining a circular pattern. Because of Virginia's weak engines, massive size and weight and with a draft of 22 ft (6.7 m), she was slow and difficult to maneuver, taking her half an hour to complete a 180-degree turn.[111]

    During the engagement, Monitor's turret began to malfunction, making it extremely difficult to turn and stop at a given position, so the crew simply let the turret continuously turn and fired their guns "on the fly" as they bore on Virginia. Several times, Monitor received direct hits on the turret, causing some bolts to violently shear off and ricochet around inside. The deafening sound of the impact stunned some of the crew, causing nose and ear bleeding.[112][113] However, neither vessel was able to sink or seriously damage the other. At one point, Virginia attempted to ram, but only struck Monitor a glancing blow and did no damage. The collision did, however, aggravate the damage to Virginia's bow from when she had previously rammed Cumberland. Monitor was also unable to do significant damage to Virginia, possibly due to the fact that her guns were firing with reduced charges, on advice from Commander John Dahlgren, the gun's designer, who lacked the "preliminary information" needed to determine what amount of charge was needed to "pierce, dislocate or dislodge iron plates" of various thicknesses and configurations.[56][114] [m] During the battle Stodder was stationed at the wheel that controlled the turning of the turret but at one point when he was leaning against its side the turret received a direct hit directly opposite to him which knocked him clear across the inside, rendering him unconscious, at where he was taken below to recover and relieved by Stimers.[106][115]

    The two vessels were pounding each other at such close range, they also managed to collide with one another at five different times.[116] By 11:00 am Monitor's supply of shot in the turret had been used up. With one of the hatches to the gun ports damaged and jammed shut she hauled off to shallow waters to resupply the turret and effect repairs to the damaged hatch, which could not be repaired. During the lull in the battle Worden climbed through the gun port out onto the deck to get a better view of the overall situation. Virginia, seeing Monitor turn away turned her attention to the Minnesota and fired shots that set the wooden vessel ablaze, also destroying the nearby tugboat Dragon. When the turret was resupplied with ammunition Worden returned to battle with only one gun in operation.[117]

    Towards the end of the engagement, Worden directed Williams to steer the Monitor around the stern of Confederate ironclad, where Lieutenant Wood fired his 7-inch Brooke gun at the vessel's pilothouse, striking the forward side directly beneath the sight hold, cracking the structural "iron log" along the base of the narrow opening just as Worden was peering out.[118] Worden was heard to have cried out, My eyes—I am blind! Others in the pilothouse had also been hit with fragments and were also bleeding.[119] Temporarily blinded by shell fragments and gunpowder residue from the explosion and believing the pilothouse to be severely damaged, Worden ordered Williams to sheer off into shallow water, where Virginia with her deep draft could not follow. There Monitor drifted idly for about twenty minutes.[120] At the time the pilothouse was struck Worden's injury was only known to those in the pilothouse and immediately nearby. With Worden severely wounded, command passed to the Executive Officer, Samuel Greene. Taken by surprise and confused he hesitated briefly and was undecided as to what action to take next,[119] but after assessing the damage soon ordered Monitor to return to the battle area.[106][117][121]

    Shortly after Monitor withdrew , Virginia had run aground at which time Commander Jones came down from the spar deck only to find the gun crews not returning fire. Jones demanded to know why and was briefed by Lieutenant Eggleston that powder was low and precious and given Monitor's resistance to shot after two hours of battle, maintained that continued firing at that point would only be a waste of ammunition.[26] Virginia soon managed to break away and headed back towards Norfolk, believing that Monitor had withdrawn from battle. Greene, now in command, did not pursue Virginia[122] and, like Worden, was under orders to stay with and protect the Minnesota,[123] an action for which he was later criticized.

    Why was the battle so significant? As soon as that battle occurred, every single other navy in the world was rendered completely irrelevant as a result of the massive technological leap. A single ironclad could destroy a blockade, and 5 of them could take on an entire armada with minimal losses and damage.

    USS_Monitor_James_River_1862.jpg
    image of the damage to the monitor

    Yeah what is incredible about this is that the battle followed the complete annihilation of wooden vessels by the CSS Virgina, and then the Monitor arrived and they both essentially bounced off each other. It was a leap forward in naval warfare which was unparalleled by almost any other invention in the field of warfare ever.

    the virginia essentially took on the entire blockade by herself, and took out 3 warships the previous day

    every single naval power in the world that learned about that battle collectively shat themselves

    too many people think the american civil war was a backwoods conflict that didn't have much influence outside the states, and boy howdy are they fucking wrong

    the mini-ball, trench warfare, artillery cartridges, rifling, repeating firearms, revolving handguns, telegraph usage, fucking fax machines, battlefield medicine and the use of sanitation, metal warships, rotating ship turrets the death of Napoleonic battle line strategy

    just to name a few

    Technically, the first aircraft carrier (spy balloons launched from a ship anchored off southern Maryland in the Potomac)

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger regular PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Geez
    Do we need to quote that whole huge thing every time we talk about that stuff? Could we maybe start putting it in spoilers or something?

    Those iron clad ships were neat.

    I always read that the major world powers didn't pay that much attention to the US Civil War. There was what, 50 years between it and WW1?

    What was up with the charges against machine guns and the trench warfare nightmare of WW1?

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  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    Geez
    Do we need to quote that whole huge thing every time we talk about that stuff? Could we maybe start putting it in spoilers or something?

    Those iron clad ships were neat.

    I always read that the major world powers didn't pay that much attention to the US Civil War. There was what, 50 years between it and WW1?

    What was up with the charges against machine guns and the trench warfare nightmare of WW1?

    major powers were INCREDIBLY interested in what happened in the states at the time, it's a myth that nobody really cared

    also what happened was the japanese-russo war

    tynicSolarLost SalientFencingsax
  • masterofmetroidmasterofmetroid Have you ever looked at a world and seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered User regular
    I recall something about Britain giving light support to the Confederacy but I'm fuzzy on the details

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    I recall something about Britain giving light support to the Confederacy but I'm fuzzy on the details

    the confederacy tried to court the British throughout most of the war, but they were incredibly reluctant to send aid due to the south's shaky possibility of victory or white peace

    very minor aid was given, but nothing terribly considerable

    Xaquin
  • ChicoBlueChicoBlue regular Registered User regular
    The British were considering the possibility of maybe discussing mediation and recognizing the South before Antietam.

    The Union said, "IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE SOUTH OR GET INVOLVED WE WILL INVADE CANADA."

    And Canada said, "OMG MOM, YOU ARE GOING TO GET US IN SO MUCH TROUBLE JUST CHILL."

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  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    the emancipation proclamation is what did it, which antietam led to

    basically lincoln need a single major union victory to give any sense of credibility to emancipation, because he was afraid it would seem like pandering due to union failures, rather than a moral ideal

    mcclellan made the union army an army, but was a fucking cowardly over-anxious clown that refused to actually use the army he made and as a result, lee walked all over the union for a year and a half

    XaquinMatevFencingsaxvalhalla130
  • XaquinXaquin regular Right behind you!Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    the emancipation proclamation is what did it, which antietam led to

    basically lincoln need a single major union victory to give any sense of credibility to emancipation, because he was afraid it would seem like pandering due to union failures, rather than a moral ideal

    mcclellan made the union army an army, but was a fucking cowardly over-anxious clown that refused to actually use the army he made and as a result, lee walked all over the union for a year and a half

    basically this

    he could have strolled into southern VA at almost any point but kept on waiting just a little bit longer

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair regular Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    the emancipation proclamation is what did it, which antietam led to

    basically lincoln need a single major union victory to give any sense of credibility to emancipation, because he was afraid it would seem like pandering due to union failures, rather than a moral ideal

    mcclellan made the union army an army, but was a fucking cowardly over-anxious clown that refused to actually use the army he made and as a result, lee walked all over the union for a year and a half

    basically this

    he could have strolled into southern VA at almost any point but kept on waiting just a little bit longer

    not any time, there were definitely points where he could have crushed the confederacy with any level of decisiveness though

    you can never, ever discount the fucking genius of lee though

    XaquinZibblsnrt
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic regular Registered User regular
    So Mike Duncan reiterated what he said in those tweets I posted about the complexity of Spanish-American independence and how he was focusing on Northwest South America

    "Anyway, our story begins in the murky past of the post-Roman Iberian Peninsula..."

    I laughed

  • JoeUserJoeUser regular Registered User regular
    It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.

    PSN: JoeUser80 Steam
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  • sarukunsarukun Mr. Bulldopps Get SchwiftyRegistered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.

    The best intentions....

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  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist rugged, weathered Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    sarukun wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.

    The best intentions....

    I'm sure Alfred Nobel and Joseph-Ignace Guillotin wished their inventions didn't end up as infamous as they did either.


    EDIT: oh wow, Guillotin didn't invent the guillotine; in fact, he opposed the death penalty! Sucks that they named it after him.

    DisruptedCapitalist on
  • honoverehonovere regular Registered User regular
    Regarding the fencing scars.

    That stuff was pretty popular with student
    sarukun wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.

    The best intentions....

    I'm sure Alfred Nobel and Joseph-Ignace Guillotin wished their inventions didn't end up as infamous as they did either.


    EDIT: oh wow, Guillotin didn't invent the guillotine; in fact, he opposed the death penalty! Sucks that they named it after him.

    And when his family asked the government to rename it they refused and so his family changed their name instead.

    DisruptedCapitalist
  • IronKnuckle's GhostIronKnuckle's Ghost regular Registered User regular
    Hey American Civil War buffs, tell me more about General William Sherman. I was born and raised in the South, and the...brief ACW coverage we had in history class certainly painted Sherman as a monster. The impression I get as an adult is that he was one of the earlier adopters of the concept of total war, and thus frequently and enthusiastically attacked infrastructure where possible. Given that the Confederate states had a much smaller industrial base than the North, I wonder just how much the actions of his army negatively impacted the southern states after the war ended. Rebuilding rail lines certainly isn't an easy thing.

  • UrielUriel regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    From what I know about Sherman he was for making war as terrible as possible in the short term so that it would end more quickly, hopefully saving more live in the long term (even if he might have been most concerned with northern lives.)

    If I remember correctly after his campaigns much of the underdeveloped infrastructure and economy of the south was destroyed or damaged severely. From everything I've heard It never really caught back up, at least to the north which continued to prosper as times shifted into the gilded age.

    Uriel on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger regular PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Lies my teacher told me?
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0743296281/ref=pd_aw_fbt_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QHTH85NRBS4DX5TGPX7

    Or the one aabout historic sites
    http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Across-America-Historic-Sites/dp/074329629X


    Said a lot of the destruction was actually the rebels trying to get him and his troops stranded

    DouglasDanger on
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  • MayabirdMayabird regular Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Sherman got a lot of hatred and unfair blame because he humiliated the south. The damage his army actually caused was often highly exaggerated (including by Sherman and his own troops, because "lightly singed whatever we happened to come across while marching very quickly and it's surprisingly hard to burn everything" doesn't sound as cool) but from Atlanta to Savannah, it was pretty much unopposed. The Confederacy couldn't put up much of a fight which he made it very, very apparent and in an honor/pride based society, having that embarrassment rubbed in rankled. He hit them where it really hurt.

    (I still like to joke about the Sherman School of Urban Redevelopment vis-a-vis Atlanta though. I did grow up in georgia, and hated it, and consider myself a bit of Sherman fangirl now.)

  • VeeveeVeevee regular WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Civil War + Mayabird gives me an idea...

    Meet Old Abe

    ndrr8zz8cmpa.jpg

    He's got America's back

    trepn1xyzgi4.jpg

    and he is the baddest motherfucker Bald Eagle ever to live.

    arlg9fxtmq8b.jpeg

    From the Wisconsin Veteran Museum:
    The bald eagle who would gain fame across the country as Old Abe spent almost all of his life in captivity. In 1861, when only a few months old, he and a hatch mate were taken from their nest by Ah-Ga-Mah-We-Ge-Zhig, or Chief Sky, an Ojibwe (Chippewa) Indian of the Lac du Flambeau Band.

    Ah-Ga-Mah-We-Ge-Zhig later traded the surviving eaglet, for a bushel of corn, to Margaret McCann in the tiny community known as Jim Falls, Chippewa County. McCann’s husband, Daniel, had difficulty walking due to a childhood accident and wanted to contribute to the war effort in some way. Upon hearing of the formation of a militia company in the Chippewa Falls area, he decided to offer the young eagle as a mascot. The Chippewa Falls men refused the offer, but a company from Eau Claire agreed to purchase the eagle for their mascot.

    One of the men from the Eau Claire company, Lt. James McGuire, approached the unit’s captain, John E. Perkins, and asked permission to obtain the eagle for a mascot—Perkins granted it. The men of the company pooled their resources to gather $2.50 to purchase the eagle from McCann. The infantry company had been known as the Eau Claire Badgers, but during their journey to Camp Randall in Madison with their new mascot, they quickly changed their nickname to the Eagles. It was also during this trip that the eagle was named Old Abe, in honor of President Abraham Lincoln.

    Upon reaching Camp Randall, a band’s impromptu performance of “Yankee Doodle” excited Old Abe. He grabbed a corner of one of the flags that were carried on each side of him in his beak and held it while flapping his wings. Local newspapers raved about the incident and cited it as a good omen. At Camp Randall, the Eau Claire men were mustered into federal service as Company C of the Eighth Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiment and went through basic training. While on their way to the fighting front, the Eighth passed through St. Louis, where Old Abe was subjected to scattered taunts and jeers of “wild goose” and “Yankee crow” by Southern sympathizers. In this excitement, Old Abe became flustered and broke the tether that secured him to his post. His freedom lasted only a short while as several men in the company broke ranks to recapture their beloved mascot and return him to his shield perch. Even amidst the insults flung at him by some, one person offered $500, and another person, “a valuable farm” to purchase the eagle from the unit.

    Old Abe saw his share of fighting during his time in service. The first major action the Eighth Wisconsin experienced took place at Farmington (Mississippi) in May 1862. During the battle, Captain Perkins ordered James McGinnis, who carried Old Abe, to the rear for protection. Later in the battle, the regiment took cover from Confederate artillery fire. McGinnis realized that he was out of the range of the artillery and did not lie down with some of the others in the company. Old Abe, imitating the men, leapt down from his perch. Seeing this, McGinnis picked him up off the ground and placed him back on his perch, only to have him jump back off the perch to the ground. After several attempts to get Old Abe to remain on his perch, McGinnis reluctantly joined the mascot, taking cover on the ground. When the regiment rose from cover, Old Abe leapt back on his perch and flapped his wings to convey his readiness.

    While the Eighth was at Camp Clear Creek after the fall of Corinth in late 1862, eagle-bearer Thomas Hill gave Old Abe relative freedom, a rarity in the field. This “liberty” allowed Old Abe to cause a great deal of mischief. Some of his adventures in camp included tipping over fire pails full of water to the frustration of soldiers who had to refill them, chasing large insects that caught his eye through camp, learning to play catch with soldiers as they rolled round bullets along the ground, visiting the sutler’s tent, ambush-ing freshly laundered clothes left out to dry, and raiding the provisions of various companies within the boundaries of the camp. Old Abe also became drunk on at least two occasions from spirits that soldiers left unattended. Like his brethren in the wild, Old Abe enjoyed any opportunity to be near water. Hill and others often accompanied Old Abe to Clear Creek where he could enjoy the stream.

    Whether on the march, in the field, or at camp, Old Abe remained constantly aware of his surroundings. On at least one occasion, he raised an alarm about a rebel courier while the Eighth was near Bayou Rapide (Louisiana). This alertness even applied to strangers who tried to approach him. It has been documented that Old Abe was not fond of strangers attempting to pet him, but appeared to derive pleasure from contact with men in uniform. Even years later, men of the Eighth could approach Old Abe without any hesitation about how they would be received by their old friend.

    The Eighth’s initial three-year enlistment came to an end in the summer of 1864, and Old Abe joined the reenlisting soldiers on their trip back to Wisconsin for a furlough. Upon returning to the field in late July or early August 1864, the men who had remained at camp almost did not recognize the eagle. Old Abe had achieved maturity, and the white head and tail feathers that came with it, while on furlough. With the original enlistments coming to an end, the men decided that Old Abe, who had also survived three years of war, would not reenlist. They struggled to choose a permanent home for the eagle, with proponents for Eau Claire, Madison, and even Washington, DC. In the end, a unanimous vote from the entire regiment presented Old Abe to state authorities in Madison

    He fought in 36 battles and skirmishes while serving with the Eighth Wisconsin
    • Fredericktown, Missouri - October 21, 1861
    • Siege of New Madrid and Island Number 10, Missouri - March and April 1862
    • Point Pleasant, Missouri - March 20, 1862
    • Farmington, Mississippi - May 9, 1862
    • Before Corinth, Mississippi - May 28, 1862
    • Iuka, Mississippi - September 12, 1862
    • Burnside, Mississippi - September 13, 1862
    • Iuka, Mississippi - September 16 and 18, 1862
    • Corinth, Mississippi - October 3-4, 1862
    • Tallahatchie, Mississippi - December 2, 1862
    • Mississippi Springs, Mississippi - May 13, 1863
    • Jackson, Mississippi - May 14, 1863
    • Assault on Vicksburg, Mississippi - May 22, 1863
    • Mechanicsburg, Mississippi - June 4, 1863
    • Richmond, Louisiana - June 15, 1863
    • Vicksburg, Mississippi - June 24, 1863
    • Surrender of Vicksburg, Mississippi - July 4, 1863
    • Brownsville, Mississippi - October 14, 1863
    • Fort Scurry, Louisiana - March 13, 1864
    • Fort de Russy, Louisiana - March 15, 1864
    • Henderson’s Hill, Louisiana - March 15, 1864
    • Grand Ecore, Louisiana - April 2, 1864
    • Pleasant Hill, Louisiana - April 8- 9, 1864
    • Nachitoches, Louisiana - April 20, 1864
    • Kane River, Louisiana - April 22, 1864
    • Clouterville and Crane Hill, Louisiana -
    • Bayou Rapide, Louisiana - April 23, 1864
    • Bayou La Moore, Louisiana - May 2, 1864
    • Bayou Roberts, Louisiana - May 3, 1864
    • Moore’s Plantation, Louisiana - May 4-6, 1864
    • Mansura, Louisiana - May 8-12, 1864
    • Maysville, Louisiana - May 16, 1864
    • Calhoun’s Plantation, Louisiana - May 17, 1864
    • Bayou de Glaise, Louisiana - May 18, 1864
    • Lake Chicot, Louisiana - June 6, 1864
    • Hurricane Creek, Louisiana - August 13, 1864

    Here's Old Abe and the color guard of the eighth regiment in July, 1863 outside of Vicksburg, MS.

    zs2fdqr7c4gt.jpg
    While Old Abe did not shed any blood during the Civil War, there were several close calls. At the Battle of Corinth, a minie ball severed the leather cord connecting the eagle to his perch, setting him loose on the battlefield. Old Abe flew down the Federal lines with eagle-bearer David McLain chasing after him. Upon seeing the famed eagle flying down the enemy lines, many Confederate soldiers attempted to shoot him down. Later, many stories and rumors of his exploits during this battle arose.

    Some of Old Abe’s supposed actions during this brief taste of freedom including carrying out “aerial reconnaissance of the Confederated lines, delivering messages for some of the commanding officers in the field, and rallying the Union forces by soaring over them and screaming his famed war cry [I'd really like to know what this sounded like if it was abnormal, as Bald Eagle cries are... well, they're terrible is what they are. There's a reason sound editors use the Red Tail's instead]. One story is believed to hold some basis in fact. It involves Confederate General Sterling Price, who upon seeing Old Abe flying along the Union lines, offered a bounty to his men for the capture of the eagle, dead or alive. According to the story, he stated that Old Abe was worth more to Union morale than a whole brigade or a dozen battle flags.

    In reality, Old Abe’s famous flight lasted roughly fifty feet before McLain caught the eagle in his arms and quickly exited the battlefield. Old Abe lost several wing and tail feathers from the incident, but escaped otherwise unscathed. Following the battle, his wings were clipped to prevent similar mishaps in the future. McLain resigned his place as eagle-bearer in protest of the procedure.

    Old Abe’s other documented close call came while he and the Eighth participated in the Vicksburg campaign. During the siege, a Confederate minie ball traveled down the eagle’s neck and chest, removing the feathers along its path. If the ball had hit at a different angle, or if Old Abe had been facing a slightly different direction, he would have been much more severely wounded and possibly killed. Instead, he merely suffered a wound in the webbing of his left wing, leaving behind a round hole. According to records, neither he nor his eagle-bearers suffered any significant injury while engaged in combat.

    In September 1864, the state of Wisconsin took possession of Old Abe and reclassified him as a “War Relic.” A newly created “Eagle Department” in the Capitol building included a caretaker, two room “apartment,” and custom bathtub for Old Abe.

    Old Abe became a nationally-known celebrity with individuals and organizations from around the state and country requesting his presence at their events. The majority of these events were either reunions of Civil War veterans or fundraisers for various charities, though he did attend larger events like the Philadelphia Centennial in 1876. As happened during the Civil War, offers to purchase Old Abe continued after the war. While at the Northwest Sanitary Fair in Illinois in 1865, a wealthy individual offered $10,000 and P. T. Barnum, the famous circus showman, offered $20,000.

    In March 1866, a roommate joined Old Abe in "The Eagle Department." The Forty-Ninth Wisconsin Infantry Regiment, during its seven months of service in the war, acquired a golden eagle named Timothy, whose name was later changed to Phil Sheridan, and finally to Andy Johnson. He joined Old Abe in the Capitol, though he was not tame and did not attend any public appearances. In fact, the two eagles became bitter rivals and fought on numerous occasions, with Andy Johnson wounding Old Abe at least once. Late in 1873, Old Abe attacked Andy Johnson, catching him off-guard, and sinking his talons deep into the neck of his rival. Andy Johnson died the following spring, due in part to the wounds Old Abe inflicted.

    A small fire broke out in the basement of the Capitol in February 1881 and, after Old Abe raised an alarm, the fire was put out quickly. However, the eagle inhaled a large amount of thick black smoke, which had an immediate negative impact on his health. About a month later, on March 20, 1881, Old Abe began refusing food. He visibly lost strength and continued to decline in spite of the care and attention of numerous doctors. On March 25, he began experiencing spasms and the next day, March 26 1881, Old Abe died in the arms of his final caretaker, George Gilles.

    Following his death, veterans from all over Wisconsin volunteered to serve as pallbearers at Old Abe’s funeral. A debate also arose over the ultimate disposition of his remains. Many championed Union Rest at Madison’s Forest Hill Cemetery as the appropriate location for burial. Even after Governor William E. Smith decided on taxidermy to allow future generations to see the legendary bird, debate continued over where the mounted eagle should be displayed. Smith ultimately chose the Capitol building and placed Old Abe’s remains on display in a glass case located in the rotunda on September 17, 1881.

    Just four years later, Old Abe was moved from the rotunda to the G.A.R. Memorial Hall, also located in the Capitol. In 1900, his remains were transferred to the new State Historical Society of Wisconsin building on the University of Wisconsin–Madison campus. However, pressure from veterans convinced Governor Robert M. Lafollette to return Old Abe to the Capitol building in 1903. During a visit that same year, President Theodore Roosevelt stopped at the Hall to view Old Abe’s remains and expressed his pleasure at being able to view the eagle he had studied in school as a child. Tragically, less than one year after this last move, Old Abe’s remains and glass case were destroyed in a 1904 fire that also razed the entire Capitol building.

    The shoulder patch for the famous 101st Airborne Division also features Old Abe. Organized for World War I, the 101st was reorganized in 1921 with its headquarters in Milwaukee. The men surely heard stories of Old Abe, as the unit quickly adopted an insignia with a white eagle above flames on a royal blue shield. Later the flames were removed and the blue shield was replaced by a black shield. The “Airborne” tab now seen above the shield was added in 1942.

    tw12fbul2ldj.jpg

    Veevee on
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  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    Sherman was an extremely good general who begged the south to not secede or cause war because he believed that the only real union response in the long run was a brutal stomping and that's exactly what he intended to give them in order to try and force them into submission (he wrote a letter to this effect, basically saying you'll lose and lose hard).

    He hated war (told a graduating class at west point that it was hell) but didn't regret stuff like the burning of Atlanta because he saw it as a strategic necessity. His reputation as mean old Sherman mostly looks like sour grapes to me.

    MayabirdMvrck
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger regular PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    That poor bird

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  • DaMoonRulzDaMoonRulz regular Mare ImbriumRegistered User regular
    Finally, after Lafayette had spent two months on the Victory “floating on this dreary plain”—land ho. Lafayette, Kalb, and a few men came ashore north of Charleston around midnight on June 13, 1777, waking up the household of Major Benjamin Huger of the South Carolina militia. Huger put them up. “I retired to rest that night rejoicing that I had at last attained the haven of my dreams,” Lafayette recalled. He went on to gush, “The next morning was beautiful. Everything around me was new to me, the room, the bed draped in delicate mosquito curtains, the black servants who came to me quietly to ask my commands, the strange new beauty of the landscape outside my windows, the luxuriant vegetation— all combined to produce a magical effect.”

    In other words, it was a buggy swamp chock-full of slaves. But Lafayette was a man in love. He proceeded to Charleston, and of course Charleston was the tops, “one of the best built, handsomest, and most agreeable cities that I have ever seen.” (excerpt)
    —Sarah Vowell in "Lafayette in the Somewhat United States"

    Buggy Swamp Chock Full of Slaves Day of Note: Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayettet, Marquis de Lafayette landed near Charleston, South Carolina on this date in 1777 in an effort to provide equipment and training to the disorganized continental forces.

    @Chincymcchilla @Moriveth

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  • DecomposeyDecomposey regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Despite living in the South, just outside of Atlanta, Sherman's name is never mentioned in my parents house without respect and pride. My dad isn't actually from the south, he's a Yankee. So there is even a framed painting depicting the March to the Sea in the house entryway. Next to it is a framed military service record for my great, great grandfather, with dates and battles, including the many battles in and around Atlanta. Because he fought in the 78th Ohio, under Sherman. So proudly I can say that my ancestor was a part of Sherman's March.

    Every time I hear 'Heritage, not hate!' I am tempted to ask if I can respect my heritage by setting their confederate flag on fire.

    Decomposey on
    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
    DouglasDangerMatevIronKnuckle's GhostknitdanmasterofmetroidDimosarstopgapSlacker71
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