TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
recent ep
I'd be willing to consider an Arya = Waif doublecross, if the show hadn't been so thoroughly hamfisted with the leadup to the point of it being unreasonable to analyze small details at all.
Rewatching Arya getting stabbed really drove that home, not to mention the absolutely silly convalescence and chase scenes.
Yeah, sounds like the suggestion is that Aerys felt up Joanna. Definitely doesn't sound like they're suggesting he had sex with her. Tywin was just insulted by the suggestion that Aerys wished he could do that, and then whatever liberties he took.
“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
We've been shown bedding ceremonies and they're public. That Aerys got handsy even beyond what is typically allowed is totally believable. Maybe he went super overboard creepy style and shoved his tongue down her throat. He does anything that could possibly result in conception and there is no way there isn't blood covering the halls and Tywin in open rebellion (or dead.)
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
I feel like saving money is becoming an increasingly visible storytelling force as the show goes on.
They teased the showdown between Arya and the Waif for two seasons, and then the actual fight happens off screen? I was looking forward to seeing Arya actually beat her and am sad we only saw the aftermath.
Danny's big triumphant return on dragon-back happens off screen too.
Compare the little fight we saw with the Hound this past episode to the "Two Chickens" fight from a few seasons ago. One was expertly written and shot, the other was rushed and cheap. Also when he does catch up to Lemoncloak, he's conveniently strung up and ready to die so no more combat necessary.
And Blackfish dying in combat off screen is like a double whammy because A) more combat happening off screen in a season that's been super light on combat and they get rid of a character that's still probably got a role to play in the books. So they'll have less to film and one less actor to pay.
I think it's more if that was sn accurate characterization then the character is dumb, hasn't learned anything and the last two seasons were pointless
I think that's a bit reductive. She learned how to fight in the dark. She learned that she still wants to be herself despite all the pain that comes with it. Narrative progress does not make characters invincible to mistakes.
+1
Options
Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
something i loved from last night
the hound: "tougher girls than you have tried to kill me"
“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
We've been shown bedding ceremonies and they're public. That Aerys got handsy even beyond what is typically allowed is totally believable. Maybe he went super overboard creepy style and shoved his tongue down her throat. He does anything that could possibly result in conception and there is no way there isn't blood covering the halls and Tywin in open rebellion (or dead.)
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
okay, here's another quote then
Genna Lannister and Jaime -
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
and another
Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.
"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.”
“Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.
“The question is, who are you?”
“This is a dream.”
“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”
One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”
“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.
I get that some people think it would be hokey or dumb, but there are at least a dozen other quotes that hint very strongly at this thread. And Cersei is going full on mad queen as of late on the show.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
We've been shown bedding ceremonies and they're public. That Aerys got handsy even beyond what is typically allowed is totally believable. Maybe he went super overboard creepy style and shoved his tongue down her throat. He does anything that could possibly result in conception and there is no way there isn't blood covering the halls and Tywin in open rebellion (or dead.)
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
okay, here's another quote then
Genna Lannister and Jaime -
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
and another
Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.
"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.”
“Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.
“The question is, who are you?”
“This is a dream.”
“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”
One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”
“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.
I get that some people think it would be hokey or dumb, but there are at least a dozen other quotes that hint very strongly at this thread. And Cersei is going full on mad queen as of late on the show.
Quote one:
Does Genna know? Because what she just said is that Jamie has parts of all the other Lannisters but less of Tywin. That's a super weird way of hinting he's not Tywin's biological son but somehow shares in the same qualities of all of Tywin's brothers. Under the theory Jamie/Cersei aren't Lannisters at all. Her point was that Jamie is not the same temperament as Tywin which is manifestly true up to that point. It also heavily influences his actions at Riverrun IMO.
Quote two:
Cersei is totally acting like the absolute monarchs of old that she wishes she was. Not really any indication that has to mean a blood link.
Quote three:
Yea, again the point is that Tywin got what he thought he wanted but that everyone laughs at Jamie and Cersei. Maybe not to their face but they absolutely do. Tywin worked to get what he thought he wanted only for it to not be what he cared about at all.
In general though, the logistics of it definitely raise my eyebrow.
We know Tywin took umbrage at the bedding ceremony. I'd have to go dig out the secondary book but IIRC this is when Tywin sent Joanna the fuck away from Court because of that. We have a big problem of logistics here.
“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
We've been shown bedding ceremonies and they're public. That Aerys got handsy even beyond what is typically allowed is totally believable. Maybe he went super overboard creepy style and shoved his tongue down her throat. He does anything that could possibly result in conception and there is no way there isn't blood covering the halls and Tywin in open rebellion (or dead.)
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
okay, here's another quote then
Genna Lannister and Jaime -
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
and another
Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.
"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.”
“Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.
“The question is, who are you?”
“This is a dream.”
“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”
One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”
“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.
I get that some people think it would be hokey or dumb, but there are at least a dozen other quotes that hint very strongly at this thread. And Cersei is going full on mad queen as of late on the show.
Quotes two and three are very thin in support of that theory
I mean, with quote 2, Jaime's Aunt is literally just saying that Tyrion's personality, charisma, intelligence, etc are almost carbon copies of Tywin's and that Jaime is just not as like his father as Tyrion. The third quote is from a fever dream, indicating that Jaime and Cersei believe themselves to be those things, but they are not a knight or a true queen. Hell with the contextual evidence, there is just as strong evidence that Tyrion is the Mad King's son. The Mad King was denied on Tywin's wedding night, later rapes Tywin's wife and she never tells Tywin to protect her unborn child. In Storm, Tywin almost says as much, such that he could never prove that Tyrion wasn't his son, but he suspected it.
In any case, with the narrative always occurring through POVs and Martin even saying that the POVs can be unreliable (see Sansa's recollection that the hound kissed her during the battle of the blackwater when he offered to take her away with him, even though that didn't occur) its very easy to draw some pretty out there conclusions from a few clips of text, granted somethings almost scream out to you at their obviousness when you go back and review the relevant chapters, like the Bolton's betrayal of the North and siding with the Crown.
0
Options
Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
We've been shown bedding ceremonies and they're public. That Aerys got handsy even beyond what is typically allowed is totally believable. Maybe he went super overboard creepy style and shoved his tongue down her throat. He does anything that could possibly result in conception and there is no way there isn't blood covering the halls and Tywin in open rebellion (or dead.)
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
okay, here's another quote then
Genna Lannister and Jaime -
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
and another
Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.
"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.”
“Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.
“The question is, who are you?”
“This is a dream.”
“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”
One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”
“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.
I get that some people think it would be hokey or dumb, but there are at least a dozen other quotes that hint very strongly at this thread. And Cersei is going full on mad queen as of late on the show.
Quote one:
Does Genna know? Because what she just said is that Jamie has parts of all the other Lannisters but less of Tywin. That's a super weird way of hinting he's not Tywin's biological son but somehow shares in the same qualities of all of Tywin's brothers. Under the theory Jamie/Cersei aren't Lannisters at all. Her point was that Jamie is not the same temperament as Tywin which is manifestly true up to that point. It also heavily influences his actions at Riverrun IMO.
(emphasis mine)
So much this.
The fact we lost that exposition prior to the Riverrun siege in the series is a shame.
It was a great bit of development of Jaime's character. That now he's lost his primary sword hand he can develop other tools to do what he needs to.
Muffinatron on
PSN: Holy-Promethium
0
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I don't get the complaints that acting a foolishly naive in Braavos was out of character for her. She's a Stark and a teenager, two groups whose defining characteristic is poor risk evaluation skills. We knows he's impulsive and tomboyish, and her go-to moves are "pretending like I'm harmless ... surprise stab!" and "Maybe if I act tough you'll be intimidated." I'm struggling to come up with anything that paints her as especially street-savvy or wary. She even had trouble passing as low-born in front of Tywin, which makes sense because her life experiences are 12 years in a castle and one desperately on the run.
Granted, but she's had 2 seasons worth of intense training to overcome those weaknesses.
I like the idea that she was trying to draw the waif out and underestimated the boldness of getting gut stabbed in broad daylight. That is completely out of character for the faceless men as far as we've been told, but the scene doesn't present it all that well.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
yeah there are ways to read the scenes to make it all add up better but these things aren't explicitly in the show
(pre edit - nothing here that hasn't been said tbh)
no mention at expecting an attack but being surprised by it. and even at the very end with the blood trail... there's been too much shock, injury, and healing time to believe this was all premeditated. she drank the milk of the poppy! like even looking back that's kind of insane. the waif is gonna want your face. luckily it took her just long enough to find the place.
I am not into the big switcheroo possiblity but I guess if we're saying it's just the very last scene, that's not really arya, I can't exactly argue against it. just seems unlikely after what came before (an almost dead arya brilliantly manipulates her would be killer back to her lair and takes an advantage thus killing the waif).
Does Genna know? Because what she just said is that Jamie has parts of all the other Lannisters but less of Tywin. That's a super weird way of hinting he's not Tywin's biological son but somehow shares in the same qualities of all of Tywin's brothers. Under the theory Jamie/Cersei aren't Lannisters at all. Her point was that Jamie is not the same temperament as Tywin which is manifestly true up to that point. It also heavily influences his actions at Riverrun IMO.
I agree with you that there isn't much support for the theory, but you're not quite correct here.
Joanna Lannister was Tywin's cousin. A A+J=C+J theory would still make C+J half Lannister. One could interpret the quote as her saying that he takes after her branch of the family but not Tywin's, hinting that he is a descendant of her side of the family but not Tywin's. Again, not saying I personally agree with that interpretation.
I almost wish this theory turns out to be true just for the hilarity. GRRM can reveal that we'll see a revelation about a surprise Targ bastard, everyone gets excited about R+L=J... then, nope. Ned knocked up some milkmaid on accident, and Martin was actually talking about Jaime and Cersei.
+2
Options
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
re targ bastards
r+l=j is actually somewhere in the books right? or is that just the name of the theory?
I mean literally those letters spelled out. I haven't read anything but the first book and that was years ago so it's a lot of wiki reading for me and sometimes it blends together... thanks to whoever can help
r+l=j is actually somewhere in the books right? or is that just the name of the theory?
I mean literally those letters spelled out. I haven't read anything but the first book and that was years ago so it's a lot of wiki reading for me and sometimes it blends together... thanks to whoever can help
Just the internet's name for the theory.
+2
Options
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
oh wow haha
I was way more sure about that one than I should have been. thank you.
Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
So, speculation on the next couple episodes based on book information
So i think a lot of us expect Cersei to die at the end of this season. Assuming Tommen dies, she kinda doesn't have anything to live for anymore and it fulfills the prophecy.
However i slightly disagree on the method of death. I think she plans on using the wildfire to threaten Kings Landing, but with Jamie returning, and the prophecy stating that her brother would kill her; I'm thinking that Jamie once again kills someone, this time his sister, in order to save the city from being destroyed. He'll be coming full circle since killing Aerys.
Or they'll just blow up the whole city and everyone dies, who really knows at this point.
I don't get the complaints that acting a foolishly naive in Braavos was out of character for her. She's a Stark and a teenager, two groups whose defining characteristic is poor risk evaluation skills. We knows he's impulsive and tomboyish, and her go-to moves are "pretending like I'm harmless ... surprise stab!" and "Maybe if I act tough you'll be intimidated." I'm struggling to come up with anything that paints her as especially street-savvy or wary. She even had trouble passing as low-born in front of Tywin, which makes sense because her life experiences are 12 years in a castle and one desperately on the run.
I agree that the "stabbed in the gut but I got better and now I can outrun the Waif" bits were tough to swallow, but Arya's characterization seemed fine to me.
But if you look at it that way, then Arya spent three seasons learning how to fight in the dark and mix some poison. She didn't grow up, she didn't learn patience, she didn't learn anything else of value that the House of White and Black has to offer. That presents a different problem altogether that the entire plot line was just a huge waste of time.
I think that misses the most important character development at all. Her decision not to run away from her past. It would have been incredibly understandable for her to put Westeros behind her permanently. She just wanted to run once her family was gone. Now she has rejected that path.
Sure, that didn't need to take three seasons. But "Essos as a holding tank for characters Westerosi plot lines aren't ready for yet" is hardly limited to that storyline.
+1
Options
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
So, speculation on the next couple episodes based on book information
So i think a lot of us expect Cersei to die at the end of this season. Assuming Tommen dies, she kinda doesn't have anything to live for anymore and it fulfills the prophecy.
However i slightly disagree on the method of death. I think she plans on using the wildfire to threaten Kings Landing, but with Jamie returning, and the prophecy stating that her brother would kill her; I'm thinking that Jamie once again kills someone, this time his sister, in order to save the city from being destroyed. He'll be coming full circle since killing Aerys.
Or they'll just blow up the whole city and everyone dies, who really knows at this point.
I mean we saw in Dany's vision that the throne room will be melted and destroyed. I always thought would happen from Dany and her Dragons' fire, but now I am leaning towards that happening from Cersei.
should have been the only part to this story and skipped the whole gut stabbing thing. It was pointless.
She barely had any impact of being stabbed. The whole segment should be Arya sets trap and knowingly baits the Waif in, they fight but Arya gets stabbed ONCE, gut stabbed if necessary but ONCE and flees, but it turns out the plan was deliberately to lure her into the dark for a fight.
As it was, it was insanely stupid and disrespectful to the character and audience to instead introduce a CW-style non-drama by putting Arya's life in danger for a cliffhanger.
So, speculation on the next couple episodes based on book information
So i think a lot of us expect Cersei to die at the end of this season. Assuming Tommen dies, she kinda doesn't have anything to live for anymore and it fulfills the prophecy.
However i slightly disagree on the method of death. I think she plans on using the wildfire to threaten Kings Landing, but with Jamie returning, and the prophecy stating that her brother would kill her; I'm thinking that Jamie once again kills someone, this time his sister, in order to save the city from being destroyed. He'll be coming full circle since killing Aerys.
Or they'll just blow up the whole city and everyone dies, who really knows at this point.
I'm half with you
I think this time Jaime is just a little too late to stop her.
should have been the only part to this story and skipped the whole gut stabbing thing. It was pointless.
She barely had any impact of being stabbed. The whole segment should be Arya sets trap and knowingly baits the Waif in, they fight but Arya gets stabbed ONCE, gut stabbed if necessary but ONCE and flees, but it turns out the plan was deliberately to lure her into the dark for a fight.
As it was, it was insanely stupid and disrespectful to the character and audience to instead introduce a CW-style non-drama by putting Arya's life in danger for a cliffhanger.
And there was no reason to kill off Lady Crane.
Fucking just misery for the sake of misery.
Well
Lady Crane did have to die, a name was given and all
Does Genna know? Because what she just said is that Jamie has parts of all the other Lannisters but less of Tywin. That's a super weird way of hinting he's not Tywin's biological son but somehow shares in the same qualities of all of Tywin's brothers. Under the theory Jamie/Cersei aren't Lannisters at all. Her point was that Jamie is not the same temperament as Tywin which is manifestly true up to that point. It also heavily influences his actions at Riverrun IMO.
I agree with you that there isn't much support for the theory, but you're not quite correct here.
Joanna Lannister was Tywin's cousin. A A+J=C+J theory would still make C+J half Lannister. One could interpret the quote as her saying that he takes after her branch of the family but not Tywin's, hinting that he is a descendant of her side of the family but not Tywin's. Again, not saying I personally agree with that interpretation.
I almost wish this theory turns out to be true just for the hilarity. GRRM can reveal that we'll see a revelation about a surprise Targ bastard, everyone gets excited about R+L=J... then, nope. Ned knocked up some milkmaid on accident, and Martin was actually talking about Jaime and Cersei.
Alright, so got a chance to dig out "The World of Ice and Fire" and there are some relevant facts to this whole thing.
Tywin married Joanna within a year of becoming Hand in 263 AC. Jamie and Cersei were born in 266 AC. That poses some serious issues of timing for the bedding ceremony to be the origin of it. It does note the incident at the bedding and because of it Joanna was shortly dismissed from her position as Lady-in-waiting to Princess Rhaella. She was sent back to Casterly Rock immediately afterwards and she seldom returned to King's Landing. That means she was away from Aerys for around 2 to 3 years before Cersei and Jamie were born. The Court did go to the Rock in 267 AC but it was explicitly after the birth of them.
Also apparently they're incestuous either way. Tywin's father was brother to Joanna's father.
Some spoilers for the most recent episode and goes into how the actress views the character's time in the temple.
And some amusing bits:
. . . and she’s like, “I don’t think I can do that because I don’t think I can remember all the lines.” It’s so weird saying that because that’s literally my job. And I remember saying that to my agent when she was saying I should be an actress. I said, “I can’t remember all the lines.” And now I am an actress and I’m seriously saying that in the role. That’s going to stick with me forever.
yeah there are ways to read the scenes to make it all add up better but these things aren't explicitly in the show
(pre edit - nothing here that hasn't been said tbh)
no mention at expecting an attack but being surprised by it. and even at the very end with the blood trail... there's been too much shock, injury, and healing time to believe this was all premeditated. she drank the milk of the poppy! like even looking back that's kind of insane. the waif is gonna want your face. luckily it took her just long enough to find the place.
I am not into the big switcheroo possiblity but I guess if we're saying it's just the very last scene, that's not really arya, I can't exactly argue against it. just seems unlikely after what came before (an almost dead arya brilliantly manipulates her would be killer back to her lair and takes an advantage thus killing the waif).
Everyone knows that if you are in your own lair you get to take a lair action every round, this bumping up your CR by about 30%.
Posts
Rewatching Arya getting stabbed really drove that home, not to mention the absolutely silly convalescence and chase scenes.
Basically, liberties that result in conception are so far beyond the usage of that word that I find the concept ridiculous.
They teased the showdown between Arya and the Waif for two seasons, and then the actual fight happens off screen? I was looking forward to seeing Arya actually beat her and am sad we only saw the aftermath.
Danny's big triumphant return on dragon-back happens off screen too.
Compare the little fight we saw with the Hound this past episode to the "Two Chickens" fight from a few seasons ago. One was expertly written and shot, the other was rushed and cheap. Also when he does catch up to Lemoncloak, he's conveniently strung up and ready to die so no more combat necessary.
And Blackfish dying in combat off screen is like a double whammy because A) more combat happening off screen in a season that's been super light on combat and
I think that's a bit reductive. She learned how to fight in the dark. She learned that she still wants to be herself despite all the pain that comes with it. Narrative progress does not make characters invincible to mistakes.
okay, here's another quote then
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
and another
“Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.
“The question is, who are you?”
“This is a dream.”
“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”
One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.
“We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”
“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.”
A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.
I get that some people think it would be hokey or dumb, but there are at least a dozen other quotes that hint very strongly at this thread. And Cersei is going full on mad queen as of late on the show.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Barely even an insult, really.
I was very amused by the plural.
Quote one:
Quote two:
Quote three:
In general though, the logistics of it definitely raise my eyebrow.
Quotes two and three are very thin in support of that theory
In any case, with the narrative always occurring through POVs and Martin even saying that the POVs can be unreliable (see Sansa's recollection that the hound kissed her during the battle of the blackwater when he offered to take her away with him, even though that didn't occur) its very easy to draw some pretty out there conclusions from a few clips of text, granted somethings almost scream out to you at their obviousness when you go back and review the relevant chapters, like the Bolton's betrayal of the North and siding with the Crown.
not really pumped
The fact we lost that exposition prior to the Riverrun siege in the series is a shame.
It was a great bit of development of Jaime's character. That now he's lost his primary sword hand he can develop other tools to do what he needs to.
The last two episodes are from the guy who did "Hardhome" so I am, but not because of the trailer.
Granted, but she's had 2 seasons worth of intense training to overcome those weaknesses.
(pre edit - nothing here that hasn't been said tbh)
I am not into the big switcheroo possiblity but I guess if we're saying it's just the very last scene, that's not really arya, I can't exactly argue against it. just seems unlikely after what came before (an almost dead arya brilliantly manipulates her would be killer back to her lair and takes an advantage thus killing the waif).
Years of this plotline and she's learned not a god damn thing.
I agree with you that there isn't much support for the theory, but you're not quite correct here.
I almost wish this theory turns out to be true just for the hilarity. GRRM can reveal that we'll see a revelation about a surprise Targ bastard, everyone gets excited about R+L=J... then, nope. Ned knocked up some milkmaid on accident, and Martin was actually talking about Jaime and Cersei.
I mean literally those letters spelled out. I haven't read anything but the first book and that was years ago so it's a lot of wiki reading for me and sometimes it blends together... thanks to whoever can help
I was way more sure about that one than I should have been. thank you.
However i slightly disagree on the method of death. I think she plans on using the wildfire to threaten Kings Landing, but with Jamie returning, and the prophecy stating that her brother would kill her; I'm thinking that Jamie once again kills someone, this time his sister, in order to save the city from being destroyed. He'll be coming full circle since killing Aerys.
Or they'll just blow up the whole city and everyone dies, who really knows at this point.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
This isn't going to end well is it?
Unless who ever Sansa wrote to saves the day.
Sure, that didn't need to take three seasons. But "Essos as a holding tank for characters Westerosi plot lines aren't ready for yet" is hardly limited to that storyline.
She barely had any impact of being stabbed. The whole segment should be Arya sets trap and knowingly baits the Waif in, they fight but Arya gets stabbed ONCE, gut stabbed if necessary but ONCE and flees, but it turns out the plan was deliberately to lure her into the dark for a fight.
As it was, it was insanely stupid and disrespectful to the character and audience to instead introduce a CW-style non-drama by putting Arya's life in danger for a cliffhanger.
And there was no reason to kill off Lady Crane.
I'm half with you
Well
Alright, so got a chance to dig out "The World of Ice and Fire" and there are some relevant facts to this whole thing.
Also apparently they're incestuous either way. Tywin's father was brother to Joanna's father.
For that matter in a lot of parts of the world throughout history.
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Some spoilers for the most recent episode and goes into how the actress views the character's time in the temple.
And some amusing bits:
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Everyone knows that if you are in your own lair you get to take a lair action every round, this bumping up your CR by about 30%.