Yeah I've gotten pretty much no use outta sucker punch on showdown.
non-stab dark isn't very useful offensively
Sucker Punch is super useful for specific scenarios, and cutting out the ones that are just "oh Jesus, Aegislash is on the field"
You want Sucker Punch for if your Golisopod sticks around for more than one turn and has the chance for a sweep. If the opponent brings out a Celesteela expecting First Impressions and eats Liquidation+Aqua Jet, or somebody leaves out Alakazam or Weavil against First Impressions, they then reasonably expect that they can bring in other big hitters that can outspeed Golisopod and wreck it with SE special attacks
Like when I whooped this one Celesteela, somebody brought out their Alolan Raichu. Aqua Jet wasn't gonna kill that thing, no sir.
Sucker Punch basically made it explode into mist.
I like having priority moves super effective against psychics and ghosts that are still good after the first turn. More coverage!
Is shadow sneak on Mimikyu better than shadow claw? Does the priority make up for the low power?
I don't think Mimikyu is fast enough to not care about priority. Especially if you're investing in Disguise + Swords Dance and are reluctant to switch out of something faster comes in. Also Play Rough does a lot more damage than Shadow Claw if you just need a no-nonsense neutral damaging attack.
The question, at least for me, is what you put in the last slot after Swords Dance/Play Rough/Shadow Sneak. You can just do Shadow Claw there anyway for higher neutral STAB against steel and poison types (ghost + fairy is super great neutral coverage), or you could go for situational super-effective coverage from Wood Hammer or Leech Life, or you could hedge your sweeper-aspiring bets and go for status like Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave.
Is shadow sneak on Mimikyu better than shadow claw? Does the priority make up for the low power?
What set are you thinking? My (story) Mimikyu has Shadow Sneak / Play Rough / Swords Dance / Shadow Claw, and it works well enough.
Sneak, Swords Dance, Play Rough, Leech Life. Holding a life orb. He's designed to set up a swords dance (or more than one if they give him a turn) and then sweep
Personally I'd go with Sneak in that situation. You get decent coverage between Play Rough and Leech Life, so having the priority move in your back pocket seems like a better option than just another coverage move.
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@Wyborn , today's the 28th. Should probably replace that section with the Magearna and Meloetta stuff.
+2
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Wait, First Impression has priority? Well, that changes things a fair bit.
I think it actually has double priority, so it beats stuff like mach punch
Oh!
So it's a bug-type Fake-out with more than double the power and no flinching.
Ok. Yeah, i can now totally see why people swear by it.
Yeah, what I was going to say in that abandoned draft was "First Impression is probably worth keeping even in rain, because it's still 50% stronger than Aqua Jet after the rain boost and it lets you mix up your priority game more." But then I second-guessed myself and didn't post it, because maybe Wyborn saw people switch out of Golisopod so often that priority on the first turn rarely mattered.
I mean, I figure the overall calculus is:
-Aqua Jet is a must on every set, obviously.
-I still think First Impression is probably a must unless I'm way off.
-Liquidate is a must in a rain team, but optional otherwise.
-Leech Life is probably a better high-BP, non-limited STAB outside of rain, because of healing. Although maybe that's wrong, because otherwise you can mix up First Impression vs. Liquidate on your first turn in? And water has better neutral coverage too...
-Sucker Punch is a solid priority option for stuff that resists water, but it's probably less good in rain because neutral Aqua Jet becomes substantially stronger.
I keep coming back to "First Impression, Aqua Jet, plus two of the other three". Dropping First Impression isn't really something that occurred to me as a serious option. But if you take First Impression/Aqua Jet/Liquidate as a given for rain, then the last slot becomes more awkward, because if you take Leech Life for the healing then you have the worst coverage spread possible. But then I wasn't sure how many meta-relevant pokemon resist both water and bug. Bug is already neutral on grass-ghost and grass-steel. And a lot of tanky/supporty things aren't guaranteed to trigger Sucker Punch anyway.
It's tricky, but it's also partially down to being willing to say "Well, Golisopod can't kill literally everything and that's fine"
It just comes close
First Impressions is an amazing move, and if Bug were a better attacking type I'd call it the best one it has, but it's Goli's signature and everyone expects it on that first turn. You can almost guarantee that if the enemy has the option then they will switch in something to resist First Impressions (unless you outpredict them). I've run into a ton of teams that carried Celesteela, and Celes walls Goli completely unless Goli's packing Liquidation (in which case, Celes switching into Liquidation can be finished off with Aqua Jet every time unless Celes has a lot of defensive investment plus Leftovers).
The big problem with First Impressions in a vacuum is that it's so scary against Pokemon weak to it that leaving them in against Goli is just unconscionable. And Bug is terrible as an attacking type, so there's always tons of options to bring in against it.
I'd never leave First Impressions off, though. What it does hit, just, mwa. Perfect. Like a train.
My perspective on Goli's water moves is slightly skewed though in that I try to keep rain up like 90% of the time for my team.
When I first saw Golisopod, I was like, "Well OBVIOUSLY it's going to be FI/AJ/Leech Life/Sucker Punch, because that has the most utility with both healing and backup priority." But that means that anybody who switches out to avoid First Impression is ALSO going to resist Leech Life, and you have nothing else to punish switches hard (when you KNOW they're going to switch and you still can't do better than Aqua Jet then that's pretty damn sad). So I think I'm coming around to Liquidate being really important, and now it's more down to Leech Life vs. Sucker Punch.
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+2
Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
Yeah I've gotten pretty much no use outta sucker punch on showdown.
non-stab dark isn't very useful offensively
Sucker Punch is super useful for specific scenarios, and cutting out the ones that are just "oh Jesus, Aegislash is on the field"
You want Sucker Punch for if your Golisopod sticks around for more than one turn and has the chance for a sweep. If the opponent brings out a Celesteela expecting First Impressions and eats Liquidation+Aqua Jet, or somebody leaves out Alakazam or Weavil against First Impressions, they then reasonably expect that they can bring in other big hitters that can outspeed Golisopod and wreck it with SE special attacks
Like when I whooped this one Celesteela, somebody brought out their Alolan Raichu. Aqua Jet wasn't gonna kill that thing, no sir.
Sucker Punch basically made it explode into mist.
I like having priority moves super effective against psychics and ghosts that are still good after the first turn. More coverage!
So, you'd suggest FI, Liquidation, Aqua Jet, and Sucker Punch.
A lot of those melt in the face of A-Raichu on electric terrRain. Which is good, because my Golisopod tangent was started with me looking for teammates for a Koko/Pelliper/Raichu core.
So I understand singles well enough, but competitive doubles remains a complete mystery to me. As near as I can tell the strat is to pair up mons that cover each others weaknesses, and also protect/fake out are very important?
Only downside to that is that Leech Life is a great move, situationally, and can make the difference between Golisopod living forever versus dying all the time
A lot of those melt in the face of A-Raichu on electric terrRain. Which is good, because my Golisopod tangent was started with me looking for teammates for a Koko/Pelliper/Raichu core.
That's actually how I first decided to look into Golisopod, too!
Wyborn on
0
Mx. QuillI now prefer "Myr. Quill", actually...{They/Them}Registered Userregular
edited November 2016
I'd say Shadow Sneak over Claw on Mimikyu. You're already getting the Swords Dance boost plus the extra 30% damage from Life Orb, plus there are fast threats that could outspeed Mimikyu if he tries to use Claw instead.
Course, I'm also completely biased towards priority moves ever since I used a Life Orb+Technician Hitmontop and surprised quite a lot of opponents in Battle Revolution. That little top kicked in so many faces. I also once battled a guy in person who was laughing at his "soon-to-be victory", as we were down to Scizor (mine), and Charizard (his). He wasn't smiling so much after he took a SD+Tech+Life Orb boosted Quick Attack for 100% health, and that was back when Scizor was kinda shrugged at for not having Bullet Punch.
Mx. Quill on
0
Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
I wonder if there are enough fliers on that list for Rock Tomb/Rock Slide to be reasonable? Or if the speed drop from Rock Tomb ever matters? Poison Jab works on a couple but I don't know if you're winning many fights with neutral Poison Jab. (Some of these like Toxapex are unwinnable no matter what so you might as well just forget about that.)
At least 70% of this thread is incomprehensible to me
You just need to chain your HAs so you can IV select before you build EVs. But don't forget you HPs, or you'll regret it.
+3
BeastehTHAT WOULD NOTKILL DRACULARegistered Userregular
edited November 2016
I'm kind of blown away that a week into OU being a thing the Smogons STILL haven't quickbanned Aegislash, Pheromosa or Hoopa-Unbound
All 3 are to around the same shitty centralizing power level of the immediately quickbanned Zygarde-complete, and they have made, and continue to make the meta an unfun shit fest that's generally decided at matchup
Aegislash can comfortably switch into over half the meta and sit there spamming nuclear shadow balls while always perfectly scouting with kings shield, and sniping kills with shadow sneak
Pheromosa is faster than God and can't be revenged
And Hoopa-Unbound literally just has to click 'hyperspace fury' and win games
Posts
Sucker Punch is super useful for specific scenarios, and cutting out the ones that are just "oh Jesus, Aegislash is on the field"
You want Sucker Punch for if your Golisopod sticks around for more than one turn and has the chance for a sweep. If the opponent brings out a Celesteela expecting First Impressions and eats Liquidation+Aqua Jet, or somebody leaves out Alakazam or Weavil against First Impressions, they then reasonably expect that they can bring in other big hitters that can outspeed Golisopod and wreck it with SE special attacks
Like when I whooped this one Celesteela, somebody brought out their Alolan Raichu. Aqua Jet wasn't gonna kill that thing, no sir.
Sucker Punch basically made it explode into mist.
I like having priority moves super effective against psychics and ghosts that are still good after the first turn. More coverage!
The question, at least for me, is what you put in the last slot after Swords Dance/Play Rough/Shadow Sneak. You can just do Shadow Claw there anyway for higher neutral STAB against steel and poison types (ghost + fairy is super great neutral coverage), or you could go for situational super-effective coverage from Wood Hammer or Leech Life, or you could hedge your sweeper-aspiring bets and go for status like Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave.
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Personally I'd go with Sneak in that situation. You get decent coverage between Play Rough and Leech Life, so having the priority move in your back pocket seems like a better option than just another coverage move.
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@Wyborn , today's the 28th. Should probably replace that section with the Magearna and Meloetta stuff.
Poliwrath
Gyarados
Dragonite
Marill/Azumarill
Mantyke/Mantine
Qwilfish
Wingull/Pelipper
Altaria/Mega Altaria
Salamence/Mega Salamence
Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza
Empoleon
Dialga
Giratina
Ducklett/Swanna
Frillish/Jellicent
Keldeo
Skrelp/Dragalge
Noibat/Noivern
Primarina
Mareanie/Toxapex
Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
Tapu Fini
Of those, I'd say the following are potentially meta relevent:
Gyarados
Dragonite
Marill/Azumarill
Mantyke/Mantine
Wingull/Pelipper
Altaria/Mega Altaria
Salamence/Mega Salamence
Frillish/Jellicent
Keldeo
Mareanie/Toxapex
Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
Tapu Fini
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The showdown meta is a lot different than the cart meta
So, you'd suggest FI, Liquidation, Aqua Jet, and Sucker Punch.
A lot of those melt in the face of A-Raichu on electric terrRain. Which is good, because my Golisopod tangent was started with me looking for teammates for a Koko/Pelliper/Raichu core.
Only downside to that is that Leech Life is a great move, situationally, and can make the difference between Golisopod living forever versus dying all the time
That SP coverage is real nice, though.
That's actually how I first decided to look into Golisopod, too!
Course, I'm also completely biased towards priority moves ever since I used a Life Orb+Technician Hitmontop and surprised quite a lot of opponents in Battle Revolution. That little top kicked in so many faces. I also once battled a guy in person who was laughing at his "soon-to-be victory", as we were down to Scizor (mine), and Charizard (his). He wasn't smiling so much after he took a SD+Tech+Life Orb boosted Quick Attack for 100% health, and that was back when Scizor was kinda shrugged at for not having Bullet Punch.
Of the meta relevent 'mons?
Tentacruel
Gyarados
Dragonite
Azumarill
Pelipper
Salamence
Toxapex
Kommo-o
Tapu Fini
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
You just need to chain your HAs so you can IV select before you build EVs. But don't forget you HPs, or you'll regret it.
All 3 are to around the same shitty centralizing power level of the immediately quickbanned Zygarde-complete, and they have made, and continue to make the meta an unfun shit fest that's generally decided at matchup
Aegislash can comfortably switch into over half the meta and sit there spamming nuclear shadow balls while always perfectly scouting with kings shield, and sniping kills with shadow sneak
Pheromosa is faster than God and can't be revenged
And Hoopa-Unbound literally just has to click 'hyperspace fury' and win games
here, maybe this'll help
I know there's ones that just suck like Entei and Phione, but I never have fun fighting any Legendary.
that thing is plainly cray
I generally see Lele paired with Mega Alakazam/other frail sweepers which look to benefit from being immune to priority
Lele usually runs specs or scarf, specs psychic in psychic terrain hits like a truck filled with smaller trucks
What does Hoopa do exactly? I'm not clear on it
It forces Aegislash to switch out or die
e: it has 160 Atk, 170 Sp.Atk and a usable 80 speed, with 80 HP/60 Def/130 Sp.Def
I used him for a whole run without realising he was a donkey fucker. I guess he was set up wrong!
See most of this is incomprehensible to me, but it's got a smiling Chikorita so I'm on board.
You people are sick and should be ashamed of yourselves.
mine solo'd the champion back in X
they dropped in someone who I thought might be able to take him out halfway through, I think, and I was just like "let's see how this goes"
it went very well
3 ghost moves
one fighting move
KERBLAM.
680 Base Stat Total so just below absurd shit like Groudon/Kyogre/Mewtwo etc
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